[Spoiler] Miko vs. Tsukiko

[gadren]

So, do you think Miko will give her life to stop Tsukiko and thereby gain her redemption?

[Demented]

*sigh*

That would redeem Miko how?

[Avatar God]

Hey, it worked in the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, sortof.

I don't know that it would redeem her unless it was for the right reasons, as she could easily sacrifice herself in a misguided following of her own, slightly off belief system. Still, that would be a fun plot turn. :miko:

[Mordokai]

I dont think Miko is scheduled to die anytime soon. I dont even think Miko is scheduled to die anytime, but that is another story.

[Demented]

Not without a Contingent Raise Dead spell, for sure. You'd have to search far and wide to find someone willing to resurrect Miko of their own volition.

Well, unless you searched this forum, of course.

[Jawajoey]

I admit I don't know the rules for fallen paladin redemption, but I don't see how fighting an evil treacherous necromancer is a great enough deed to redeem a paladin... Not that it's easy, but it doesn't exactly have anything to do with atonement, or extreme good. A Non-cowardly Good action doesn't seem like redemption material.

[Finwe]

Even without her paladin powers, Miko could pretty easily kill Tsukiko. T's only got 4th level cleric spells (and presumably 4th levle wizard or sorc spells). Since T's got no armor on and has d4 hit-die for most of her levels, she'll go down really easily to a melee character like Miko, who's also much higher level. Having high hit-dice, evasion, and god saves even without her paladin powers, Miko can probably withstand just about everything that T could throw at her and still be kicking.

[factotum]

Nice theory, but it kind of falls down on the minor detail that Miko is still in prison. Furthermore, the prison in question is covered in an anti-magic field. Why would Tsusiko (who is a pure caster, given what we know) want to go in there? Who would actually let Miko out?

[BisectedBrioche]

Nice theory, but it kind of falls down on the minor detail that Miko is still in prison. Furthermore, the prison in question is covered in an anti-magic field. Why would Tsusiko (who is a pure caster, given what we know) want to go in there? Who would actually let Miko out?

That just gave me an idea;

Maybe team evil will end up loseing by accidently wandering into said cells

[Baalzebub]

So, do you think Miko will give her life to stop Tsukiko and thereby gain her redemption?

That's a good idea, but she'll have to do more than that. Like, dying for Hinjo. Imagine if Tsukiko casts a deadly spell to him (from a scroll or some wiz/cleric spell) and Miko crosses in front of Hinjo, just before the blast. Miko dies for Hinjo, her leader and descendant of the person she killed. Now, that's a good, redeeming act!!

[Copacetic]

See, problem is, Miko being a jack-a** paladin and all was just waiting to fall. And thats ironic. And the Giant likes Irony

[RobbyPants]

It wouldn't surprise me if Miko gets a chance to do some fighting, but it will probably be due to an accident (such as the jail being blown open by a stray Fireball or something). I don't see her dying fighting Tsukiko, though.

[One Skunk Todd]

I wonder if Tsukiko and miko will somehow end up being related. (This has been suggested in the main thread already)

As for Miko getting out of her cell. It occurs to me that Belkar loudly proclaimed Miko as evil. If the other prisoners break out they might accidentally think she's on their side and let her out too. Not likely, but a possibility.

[Alfryd]

If Miko escapes from prison, restrains herself from skewering any protagonists in the immediate vicinity, hopefully risks her life to save some relatively-defenceless relative-innocents from slaughter, and perhaps returns to custody without undue fuss and bother, then it is conceivable she'll have proven herself worthy in Hinjo's eyes of being allowed to attempt a quest to redeem herself. Rather than, say, facing dual charges of high treason. For which the penalties are quite severe.
But no-one's gonna cast Atonement offhand for her benefit simply because of proficiency at killing things. That much was never in question. (Not that she could Atone at this point anyways, lacking any token of contrition.)

And yes, assuming Miko can pursuade her to stick around in melee, Tsukiko should go down easily. But that's no given.

[Kreistor]

Even without her paladin powers, Miko could pretty easily kill Tsukiko.

Well, that lack of ability to fly thing might just be a problem. I foresee death from above for Miko, and Miko's sudden conversion to the god of decent ranged weapons. Seriously, you can't hurt what you can't reach. At worst, Tsukiko runs out of spells and runs away: at best she kills Miko. At best, Miko chases Tsukiko off: at worst, she dies.

Unless the god of plot gets in the way and gives Miko a chance not inherent in the system.

[Megalomaniac2]

Well, their names rhyme. That's gotta indicate some kind of future interaction between them. Personally, I think it would be hilarious if Tsukiko turned out to be Miko's sister, but I'm pretty sure she gave Tsukiko as her LAST name, so it probably won't happen.

[Tubbykiller]

Doesn't Tsukiko have to return her payroll forms to redcloak first?

Actually I think Miko will be redeemed for saving the gate against Xykon. It's pretty obvious, since Miko is the last member of the good within reach of Xykon.

[jindra34]

Doesn't Tsukiko have to return her payroll forms to redcloak first?

Actually I think Miko will be redeemed for saving the gate against Xykon. It's pretty obvious, since Miko is the last member of the good within reach of Xykon.
How can she reach the gate she is in jail?!@

[Tubbykiller]

How can she reach the gate she is in jail?!@

Never underestimate the might of the PLOT

[Geilan]

How can she reach the gate she is in jail?!@

-insert plot hole- Fireball blasts through the jail cell, and Miko escapes.

[Iranon]

If it comes to a direct confrontation, it is almost a given that Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion enter the picture somehow...

[AyuVince]

-insert plot hole- Fireball blasts through the jail cell, and Miko escapes.

That won't work. First of all, Miko is in the anti-magic cell block, a fireball flying in would be dispelled immediately. Secondly, I doubt that fireballs can destroy massive iron bars.

[ZeroNumerous]

DR does no apply to magic, ergo, hardness would not apply to magic. 15d6 versus 30 HP? Easily done. And yes, the cellblock is in an AMF, but it could always blast the OUTSIDE. Miko has Monk levels, climb is in class for her.

[jindra34]

DR does no apply to magic, ergo, hardness would not apply to magic. 15d6 versus 30 HP? Easily done. And yes, the cellblock is in an AMF, but it could always blast the OUTSIDE. Miko has Monk levels, climb is in class for her.

All magical effects stop at the edge of a AMF regardless of their source... hence the blast would fizzle at the bars or the wall or whatever... magic can have no effect inside an AMF... got that?

[I_Got_This_Name]

but I'm pretty sure she gave Tsukiko as her LAST name, so it probably won't happen.
Tsukiko is a given name IRL.

Also, DR != Hardness; hardness applies to energy attacks, whereas DR does not, they have different names, and DR specifically spells out that it does not apply to magic, while hardness does not.

It'd take, say, a catapult stone, to let her go.

[tonberryking]

Miko refuses to acknowlege that her actions were in any way wrong and that everything she does is the will of her gods. Last time I checked she also thinks there's some explination for why her powers were taken from her without blaming herself and told Sabine she wasn't a fallen paladin.

So...

For Miko to even start redeeming herself she has to accept that killing a defenseless old man (or her lord OR however else you look at it) was wrong.

She has to furthermore acknowlege that even if she does serve higher powers, that her prior attitude (as Roy put it, a "Bully with a Badge" mentality) was wrong because at least outside of game mechanics redemption would work if she went RIGHT back to her old, set ways upon receiving her Paladin powers again.

It was this belief and mentality (along with nummerous misconceptions about Good, Evil, the Order's hand in Xykon's schemes) that lead to her killing Shojo and it's this that's got to change. Simply going around killing "Evil" characters or doing good deeds and helping people who are "Good" like she's doing community service won't change things if she doesn't change herself first. Self sacrificing herself would lead to possible character redemption if not paladin hood but I can't see how being in a cell all this while is going to give her the necessary insight to help put things on the mend.

[AyuVince]

Also, DR != Hardness; hardness applies to energy attacks, whereas DR does not, they have different names, and DR specifically spells out that it does not apply to magic, while hardness does not.
That's what I'm tolkien about! Besides, why do people always think that fireballs deal force damage like a regular explosion? The spell description clearly states that:

"A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure."

There you have it: fire damage. You can't burn down a stone wall.

[Demented]

Stone is 8 hardness... chances are, any fireballs flying around are going to be 10d6, average 35. Unless Xykon tosses around some Delayed Blasters...

The fireball would need to melt the stone, since fireballs are no longer explosive.

Edit:
Perhaps I should take time to post faster...

[jindra34]

That's what I'm tolkien about! Besides, why do people always think that fireballs deal force damage like a regular explosion? The spell description clearly states that:

"A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure."

There you have it: fire damage. You can't burn down a stone wall.

But you can melt one...

[pendell]

It occurs to me that if Miko -- armed -- were to fight a caster like, say, Xykon inside that anti-magic field, Miko would have all the advantages.

Once Xykon or Unnatural Wizardry Girl steps into the AM field, they are suddenly a walking skeleton and a weak girl in a skirt, respectively. Corner them and use a sturdy, nonmagical club to beat them both to a pulp.



Respectfully,

Brian P.

[cheese534]

wait, who is tsukiko again? :smallconfused:

[Mewtarthio]

Stone is 8 hardness... chances are, any fireballs flying around are going to be 10d6, average 35. Unless Xykon tosses around some Delayed Blasters...

Half damage (due to attempting to deal fire damage to an object) makes that and average of ~18 damage. Subtract hardness to get 10 damage, assuming the stone is completely mundane (if it's magically reinforced, it's hardness jumps to 16, meaning a Fireball only deals around 2 damage). A one-foot thick masonry wall has 90 HP, requiring an average of nine Fireballs to be destroyed.


wait, who is tsukiko again? :smallconfused:

See today's comic. Unnatural Acts of Wizardry girl.

[Demented]

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Of course, you'd have to get them in there, first. Good luck.

[Nathander]

While I think Miko will eventually atone, I don't expect it to be during the Azure City battle or, even for that matter, for awhile (and this hinges on whether or not she survives the story to get there). I also somewhat doubt that she'll confront Tsukiko or get out of the prison before the battle is over, whether or not the city survives. The next time we see Miko, it'll be when Hinjo decides to establish her sentence

Which I think will either be banishment or possibly aiding the OoTS in bringing back Roy, if she does decide to atone.

As for Tsukiko herself

I honestly believe that Rich is going to surprise us and that, instead of Miko joining the Linear Guild, Tsukiko will survive and join them. After all, being a Theurge, she would technically take the place of two opposites (V's and Durkon's), while Nale would only have to worry about the possible pay or accomadations for one person.

[Demented]

I honestly believe that Rich is going to surprise us and that, instead of Miko joining the Linear Guild, Tsukiko will survive and join them. After all, being a Theurge, she would technically take the place of two opposites (V's and Durkon's), while Nale would only have to worry about the possible pay or accomadations for one person.

Spoiler this...
spoiler that...
Tsukiko vs. Pompei & Leeky? Made of much win, that battle would be. Except for Tsukiko, in which case it's made of much losing.

I'm thinking she's more set up to be a one-shot challenge for Durkon in this battle, though.

[Nathander]

Spoiler this...
spoiler that...
Tsukiko vs. Pompei & Leeky? Made of much win, that battle would be. Except for Tsukiko, in which case it's made of much losing.

I'm thinking she's more set up to be a one-shot challenge for Durkon in this battle, though.

Spoilers spilling through a wiffleball bat...
Perhaps, though I somewhat doubt we'd ever see any of a genuine battle, considering Pompei and Leeky have pretty much quit the Guild, though whether Nale has yet to truly acknowledge this hasn't been said.

As for her being a one-shot challenge for Durkon, I would adore that, honestly. I think that would be the most likely way to truly bring Durkon in, aside from confronting the Huecuva (sp?), or possibly the Eye of Fear and Flame. Though, honestly, considering what Redcloak has told us about the Eye, it wouldn't seem like it would be very hard fighting it.

[Gaelbert]

I hope not. I don't have much love for Miko, but I don't think its her time to die yet.

[Icewalker]

Doesn't work, even if she does it to be good. Takes an atonement spell also.

[BisectedBrioche]

It occurs to me that if Miko -- armed -- were to fight a caster like, say, Xykon inside that anti-magic field, Miko would have all the advantages.

Once Xykon or Unnatural Wizardry Girl steps into the AM field, they are suddenly a walking skeleton and a weak girl in a skirt, respectively. Corner them and use a sturdy, nonmagical club to beat them both to a pulp.



Respectfully,

Brian P.

Retroactivly, agree'd


That just gave me an idea;

Maybe team evil will end up loseing by accidently wandering into said cells

[Fred Fumblrol]

Since Team Evil is on a recruitment drive, and Xykon has already scryed Miko all beige, I think X will go to Miko to "turn her to the dark side". Once X is in the AMF, Miko goes all monk on his bony...self, *POOF* redemption.

ps
But not before Xykon releases the rest of the Linear Guild.

[Kioran]

Miko´s greatest advantage is that she, as a low-lvl monk, is still a living Weapon with 1d8 - and though I´m relatively sure she´ll join the battle I don´t think she fights Tsukiko....

[Arkzein]

It occurs to me that on the second page of a thread with "Spoiler" built right into the title, that these tags are no longer necessary. Anyone who has read this far has accepted the risk of a spoiler.

Now that that's out of the way, I have a feeling that Miko will escape from prison somehow. The power of plot. Let's not forget that she escaped from a Forcecage spell. An anti-magic cell (Because everyone knows that monks are dependent on their spells!) will probably not hold her indefinitely.

[jindra34]

It occurs to me that on the second page of a thread with "Spoiler" built right into the title, that these tags are no longer necessary. Anyone who has read this far has accepted the risk of a spoiler.

Now that that's out of the way, I have a feeling that Miko will escape from prison somehow. The power of plot. Let's not forget that she escaped from a Forcecage spell. An anti-magic cell (Because everyone knows that monks are dependent on their spells!) will probably not hold her indefinitely.

A mildly-escapable force cage spell... and i think miko's just prayying for an escape... not the best idea in her situation...

[the_tick_rules]

Miko coming to the rescue. Unlikely, but it is OOTS, it is possible.

[Runolfr]

No. Miko is still locked in her cell, while Tsukiko is outside wreaking havoc on the battlements. There's not much chance of them encountering each other in the near future.

[AyuVince]

Tsukiko has spent quite some time in the anti-magic ward, I doubt she'd enter it voluntarily, unless she feels comfortable fighting unarmed with a cleric BAB.

As for Xykon.. I'm sure he has some kind of magical doodad to detect the magic-canceling effect in the prison. He may be dumb, but he's not stupid, if you know what I mean.

[Runolfr]

As for Xykon.. I'm sure he has some kind of magical doodad to detect the magic-canceling effect in the prison. He may be dumb, but he's not stupid, if you know what I mean.

Xykon's not headed for the prison; he's headed for the throne room.

[jamroar]

Miko´s greatest advantage is that she, as a low-lvl monk, is still a living Weapon with 1d8 - and though I´m relatively sure she´ll join the battle I don´t think she fights Tsukiko....

Agreed. As for her opponent,


I get the feeling that she'll face off with the Eye of Flame and Fear and either -
1) Succumb to its Fear ability, and consciously commit an evil act to save her own skin (now that she can be fairly certain the OOTS is _not_ on Xykon's side after hearing of Roy's death in Elan's song, and later perhaps witnessing the battle for herself), and maybe turning against allies taking on the Huecava (Durkon?), furthering her damnation and proving the idiotic "Fear->The Dark Side" maxim correct.

2) Succumb to its Fear ability, which serves as a wake up call that she has truly fallen from grace, if she is in denial.

3) Overcome her fear, and prove that a paladin's courage is more than just Immunity to Fear and the blessings of Divine Grace, proving Redcloak a liar, furthering her redemption.

[AyuVince]

Xykon's not headed for the prison; he's headed for the throne room.

I know, but in case he has to head in the direction of the prison for whatever reasons, he'd probably avoid it.