Rogue Archetype Investigator PEACH

[Ghost Dragon]

Hey all. As usual PEACH, looking to use this in an up coming game and would like to fine tune it or at least get feedback on it before I do. Credit to various other internet 'Investigator' sources that have been used as inspiration for this. Thanks all for you comments.


Investigator

When the Guard cannot deduce a crime, when the wizards cannot find knowledge in their tomes, and when a cleric’s divination should fail, an investigator with a sharp eye and a sharper mind is worth their weight in gold. While some do it for profit, others love the mystery (and often danger). As an investigator, you specialize in finding clues, detecting fraud, and unveiling the truth.

Detective
At 3rd level, you gain proficiency in Alchemist’s Supplies and Poisoner’s kit, and you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make related to the following skills that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus: Arcana, History, Investigation, Insight, Medicine, Nature, and Religion. In addition, you can use Wisdom (Perception) or Intelligence (Investigation) instead of (Wisdom) Survival to track a creature.

Inquiring Mind
Yours is a path that seeks knowledge in all its forms, giving you uncanny insight and recall. Starting at 3rd level when you adopt this archetype, you have advantage on rolls to recall information, and you gain the ability to cast the comprehend languages, identify and detect magic spells, but only as rituals, as described in chapter 10. Any components needed for these spells are replaced with alchemical substances that you must supply of the same value.

Formulaic Lore
By 9th level, your study of alchemy and poison has increased your ability to use or resist certain substances. When you roll a 1 or 2 when determining the effects of poisons, potions or elixirs, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll. In addition, you have resistance to poison damage.

Penetrating Perception
Starting at 13th level, you gain advantage on all saving throws against illusions, Wisdom (Insight) checks, and Wisdom (Perception) checks to see through disguises.

Study Foe
At 17th level, you can use your knowledge of an enemy’s weakness or strength against them. You can use an action to study an enemy, choosing one of the following four effects:

- You have a bonus to your next attack roll against your studied foe equal to your Intelligence modifier, and a bonus to the damage roll equal to your rogue level. 
- You have advantage all saving throws that target you originating from your studied foe until the end of your next turn.
- You learn all physical or spell-like ability damage types your studied foe can deal. This ability does not reveal any spells the target may have prepared. 
- You know of any vulnerabilities, weaknesses or conditions/damage types that prevent beneficial abilities functioning that your studied foe possesses.

[ZenBear]

I like this concept. A few issues:

1. I don't see why poisons are a thing all "Investigatiors" would know how to make. Identify perhaps, but that's more a medicine check than a tool proficiency.

2. Even at 17th level, granting yourself advantage as a bonus action every turn is incredibly strong for a Rogue. Guaranteed Sneak Attack if you hit, and advantage makes it easy to hit. Try to rein that in a bit.

3. Learning what damage types an enemy can inflict gets a bit out of hand when you are dealing with a spellcaster.

4. Gaining resistance to a damage type because you know it's coming doesn't make much sense. Also, you can learn vulnerabilities with a knowledge check.

[Ghost Dragon]

I like this concept. A few issues:

1. I don't see why poisons are a thing all "Investigatiors" would know how to make. Identify perhaps, but that's more a medicine check than a tool proficiency.

2. Even at 17th level, granting yourself advantage as a bonus action every turn is incredibly strong for a Rogue. Guaranteed Sneak Attack if you hit, and advantage makes it easy to hit. Try to rein that in a bit.

3. Learning what damage types an enemy can inflict gets a bit out of hand when you are dealing with a spellcaster.

4. Gaining resistance to a damage type because you know it's coming doesn't make much sense. Also, you can learn vulnerabilities with a knowledge check.

Hey Zen thanks for the feedback.

For No 1: I suppose it's my attempt to have an Investigator trained in forensics and the substances used in it's crime scene application (plus its a direct copy of the Pathfinder Investigator feel as well which is where I got some inspiration from). Alchemy and Poisons are the closest thing to those substances in this setting that I could think of which is why I gave proficiency, both to be able to identify them and create them for purposes of recreating a crime scene/murder where an obscure/original poison was used as the murder weapon (also gives a little more utility/damage potential to this archetype as there is nothing else in terms of extra damage throughout). With there experimentation, taste testing and what not this gives the basis for the level 9 ability too.

For No 2: Yup I agree with you on that, I will work on another condition to replace it, any suggestions would be good too if you have them?

For No 3: I didn't really consider spellcasting when I designed this, was more the idea of his long study and good recall coupled with deductive reasoning could give insight into physical or spell like ability damage types, not giving him an auto "this is what spells they have prepared". Will reword it accordingly, give it a gander and see what you think.

For No4:With the vulnerabilities, a knowledge check has a chance of failure, and this does not. It also reveals more than just that (which a knowledge check might reveal too but same reasoning ie he just knows) ie a vampire's regeneration cease to function if they take radiant dmg or holy water dmg, a Trolls regeneration ceases with fire or acid dmg, and so forth. As for the resistance to a damage type, I know what you mean about not making sense, but I envisioned it being him using some alchemical protection (a fire retardant oil, a ph flask that neutralises acid and so forth) tying back in to alchemy and poison study. Perhaps a little more fluff written there would help? If you still don't think that works any other suggestions for that one?

Did some changes to the 17th level ability to help balance, making it an action instead of a bonus action also helps I think. Changed the advantage condition to a bonus to attack and damage. Removed the resistance feature as they already have Uncanny dodge which gives resistance to any damage for one attack anyway. What say you now?

Can I assume that because you didn't mention anything else it seems flavourful and balanced to you? Thanks again :)

[mictrepanier]

Credit to various other internet 'Investigator' sources that have been used as inspiration for this. ]

Thanks for your version too. The rogue damage coming from sneak attacks, the thief and assassin features are more non-combat related, as your investigator.

I have a player testing my version from http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420868-Investigator-rogue-sub-class&p=19385430#post19385430 and it is quite efficient.

The proficiencies " jack-of-all-trade" approach is easier to handle but more flavorless than my version, since it is automatic and needs no roleplaying to obtain.

Your "know your enemy" version is too late, at 17th level...

" Inquiring mind" is fine. Maybe make it a non magical ritual. A 100 gp pearl to identify the magic item may be replaced by 100 gp worth of alchemical material to test the item in a lab... Another issue is that keen mind feat already grants full memory of past events...

I agree with ZenBear : poison knowledge and immunity is not very related to this archetype...

[Ghost Dragon]

Thanks for your version too. The rogue damage coming from sneak attacks, the thief and assassin features are more non-combat related, as your investigator.

I have a player testing my version from http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420868-Investigator-rogue-sub-class&p=19385430#post19385430 and it is quite efficient.

The proficiencies " jack-of-all-trade" approach is easier to handle but more flavorless than my version, since it is automatic and needs no roleplaying to obtain.

Your "know your enemy" version is too late, at 17th level...

" Inquiring mind" is fine. Maybe make it a non magical ritual. A 100 gp pearl to identify the magic item may be replaced by 100 gp worth of alchemical material to test the item in a lab... Another issue is that keen mind feat already grants full memory of past events...

I agree with ZenBear : poison knowledge and immunity is not very related to this archetype...

Hey Mic, Thanks for feedback.

I like your roleplaying aspect to your bonus proficiencies feature at 3rd, but due to archetype not happening till third level I don't like the whole getting Investigation Perception and Insight only then. If I was building an Investigator, those three skills would be a top priority at 1st level to ensure roleplaying and abilities match up right away. This is the reason I gave the "Jack of all Trades" feel at 3rd, more to represent general study in a wide field of information that a detective would have. I don't think it's less flavourful than your version, as one would still have to do significant investigation rolls and related knowledge checks for researching, finding the right people, going to the right libraries and so forth to discover obscure info, plus I don't think you would be roleplaying the 8 hours research for auto success on your version anyways. This way I think it gives that Sherlock feel where they have good knowledge of most intelligent related fields aka That Smart Guy :smallwink:

I agree with your suggestion of the "Study Foe" being to late and will look at changing things around accordingly. I also agree with your suggestion of "Inquiring Mind" changing the components to Alchemical substances to test in lab, puts a great detective/forensic feel to that too. I thought about Keen Mind when designing this, and due to the fact that it is only for the past month, the ability in this works for more long term memory recall, assuming the player takes Keen Mind and feats are allowed in their campaign too. If not then this recall ability is neat I think.

As for the poison thing, I had in mind Police Inspector Frederick Abberline (Johnny Depp) in "From Hell" a darker Investigator who is addicted to Opium (Not a poison per say but close), as well as Wesley out of The Princess Bride (Yes a pirate not an investigator but a reference to what I'm going for). Generally this is called Mithridatism, which is the practice of protecting oneself against a poison by gradually self-administering non-lethal amounts. Now, that being said I completely understand both of your points of view that "Why would every single investigator be doing this particular practice?" and I'm up for suggestions to replace it if you have any? Please give any ideas as without them I'm a bit stuck on that one aka how to keep that darker feel without the poison part.

On that too, is the Formulaic Lore feature ok? (disregarding poison in there or not, though if it is removed this feature becomes sub par so may need a slight boost)

Thanks again for your feedback Mic, although I may not agree with everything it always makes me consider my choices and think about it differently, which is very much appreciated.

Cheers

[mictrepanier]

As per the dmg, automatic succes means that skilled people may take 10 as a dice results for checks as in 3.x. It just mean the player is considered skilled.

My version flaw is that the line is blurred between local gossip ans lore and overall knowledge. It needs bookeeping ex: real medieval local saint cult (religion).

Your version strenght is its simplicity. The flaw is in overspecialisation: expert perception plus investigation means 2 1/2 proficiency bonus for these skills; not an issue for me but one officially. If it does not stack, then the feature is worthless for must-have skills like INV or PER.

You add poison to the archetype when i lend sneak attacks to friend. I think we should leave poison to assassins. Wesley should get Mithridatism as a feat...

Maybe a better know your enemy to replace it ? We can otherwise modify our 2 archetypes to suit both interpretation...

9th level:

1) No check roll. It slows down too much
2) INT bonus to attack or damage is fine, in a limited access, with a better access at 17th level. Maybe only if sneak attack is allowed ? Only on humanoids, monsters and animals ?

I did it with my fighter tactician from http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?422060-Fighter-sub-class-tactician&p=19408249#post19408249

Weaker than yours, at an earlier level, without a check. Keep the bonus to yourself and do not allow friends to get it and it should be balanced.