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View Full Version : Buying magic items: Ever wonder...



Talya
2007-05-01, 07:34 AM
...where the multitude of 17th level wizards making your ubiquitous metamagic rods are?

My DM made me travel to waterdeep just to find a LESSER metamagic rod of extending. His explanation?

"Even in Faerun, Level 17 wizards don't grow on trees. And most of them have better things to do than make metamagic rods for sale."

Ikkitosen
2007-05-01, 07:35 AM
I imagine things like Wizards Guilds have specialist enchanters whose primary role is creating income for the guild by creating magic items.

Indon
2007-05-01, 07:36 AM
Well, you see, whenever a Lawful Neutral wizard dies, they're damned to an eternity of producing magical items in a factory in Mechanus.

Mechanus then exports to fund further production.

Swooper
2007-05-01, 07:39 AM
Poor guys. They'll never make the high levels, spending all their XP on magical items like that. I miss 2nd Edition, when you actually GAINED XP for making magical items. I play casters most of the time, and I don't think I've made as much as a scroll since 2nd Edition.

JellyPooga
2007-05-01, 07:40 AM
This is called "Good DM-ing" IMO.

All those high level Magic Items have to be made by someone and there really aren't that many high level characters (let alone those with spellcasting ability AND the required Craft feat(s)).

This is why, if I ever DM a game, Magic Items are pretty rare and if the players want something specific, they either have to be really Lucky or make it themselves....on the other hand, special materials are relatively common in my games (probably about equal with other peoples' 'normal' games...i.e. if you have the money, it's available.), though there are some exceptions (dragonhide being one of them).

Talya
2007-05-01, 07:40 AM
I miss 2nd Edition, when you actually GAINED XP for making magical items.

That actually makes far more sense.

Talya
2007-05-01, 07:41 AM
This is called "Good DM-ing" IMO.

All those high level Magic Items have to be made by someone and there really aren't that many high level characters (let alone those with spellcasting ability AND the required Craft feat(s)).

This is why, if I ever DM a game, Magic Items are pretty rare and if the players want something specific, they either have to be really Lucky or make it themselves....on the other hand, special materials are relatively common in my games (probably about equal with other peoples' 'normal' games...i.e. if you have the money, it's available.), though there are some exceptions (dragonhide being one of them).


This is my DM's attitude, too. To be fair, it makes far more sense than treating the entire campaign setting as a magical walmart.

Ikkitosen
2007-05-01, 07:43 AM
That actually makes far more sense.

And is completely unbalanced :(

Funkyodor
2007-05-01, 07:58 AM
I really hate the feeling I get sometimes when the DM allows anything you can afford, it kinda turns the entire city into a Toys are Us. Great twist was that we spent alot of money in town, the local 'Guild' got wind of it, and demanded their cut. Three guys ambushed the Bard in a back alley and gave him a couple of good shiners when he couldn't produce the goods. Curtailed spending and started a good campaign at the same time.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-01, 08:00 AM
I do all my shopping in Sigil or Union at high levels. So I don't worry overmuch about it.

Ikkitosen
2007-05-01, 08:08 AM
I do all my shopping in Sigil or Union at high levels. So I don't worry overmuch about it.

What about in worlds where these places don't exist though?

Morty
2007-05-01, 08:14 AM
Heh. Actually, my current campaign takes place in Faerun too, but my DM is even more restrictive about magic items. Not only we can't just buy every item we can afford, but our DM specifically states what we can find in shop- we ususally find items or take them as reward. Well, between the two, I like my DM's approach better. There's only few things I hate more that "Good day my stout yeoman, I'd like to buy one Cloak of resistance +1 and one Belt of Giant's Strenght, please":smallyuk: .

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-01, 08:29 AM
Meh, if you're in a low-magic setting, dandy-fine for you if you can't buy potions/scrolls/rods/whatever.

Forgotten realms, though, what the...that's a pretty dang epic setting.
Elminster probably produces metamagic rods as part of his digestive process (the end part).

If it really bothers you, posit specialized crafters that (while not great wizards in the usual sense) are great crafters.

But in the end, this is just another "This is unrealistic and I dislike it for that reason, even though it's one of the factors that balances the game/makes the game playable."
I am seeing this far too often. If you really try, honestly, I'll bet you can both allow classes that need magic items to get them, and be logically consistent.

For instance- let's say the Zhents are branching out into producing magical items for sale. Their caravans travel widely, they almost certainly have potent wizards at their command, any criminal syndicate needs cash. Could be? Could be.

Also, many and more magic items are part of hoards, i.e. from the distant past/lost empire. So if you're really bothered, put the rods there and blame it on the ancient empire of blahblah.

Gamebird
2007-05-01, 09:00 AM
I say that magic items don't degrade over time. Then posit a sufficiently long-term society with few sunderings/destruction of magic items and they build up.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-05-01, 09:01 AM
Nono, you guys have it all wrong- the Fine people at Mojotech Incorporated make all of your magic items, and just use Wizards as Fences. :P


Actually, I'd have to agree that 17th level wizard's don't grow on trees, and that they ahve better things to do than make magic items for you... However it might be fun as a DM to actually have people try to comission magic goods from the party Wizard.

Roderick_BR
2007-05-01, 10:02 AM
I have a DM that says "if you have enough money, anything can be found in WaterDeep" Of course, that rule usually bites his ass time and time again, bue he doesn't learn :smallamused:

Talya
2007-05-01, 12:00 PM
Actually, I'd have to agree that 17th level wizard's don't grow on trees, and that they ahve better things to do than make magic items for you... However it might be fun as a DM to actually have people try to comission magic goods from the party Wizard.

Party...wizard? I'm the party wizard. I'm a sorceress without item creation feats. :smalleek:

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-05-01, 01:03 PM
One of my players is an artificer currently, and he wants to start an economic empire by cheaply making Magic items and selling them to people. Aye yai yai.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-05-01, 01:43 PM
Actually, I'd have to agree that 17th level wizard's don't grow on trees
Apparently you don't know the Faerun setting very well :smallbiggrin: .

Talya
2007-05-01, 01:58 PM
One of my players is an artificer currently, and he wants to start an economic empire by cheaply making Magic items and selling them to people. Aye yai yai.

I'm reminded of Varsuuvius and the potion sale...but this board is too slow during the day to look it up.

Aurumvorax
2007-05-01, 02:06 PM
If it really bothers you, posit specialized crafters that (while not great wizards in the usual sense) are great crafters. QFT
Yes, wizards do not grow on trees, but it's entirely possible that there are wizards that earn they living by making magic items, especially if they don't feel like adventuring and/or are too lazy to research new spells.But you're probably right that they aren't of very high level.
Maybe the best solution for getting potent magic items is to have them commissioned from a local WizGuilt (well, maybe not *local*, but one in the big city)

PinkysBrain
2007-05-01, 03:51 PM
Wow there must be an awful lot of Americans here ... only Gamebird seems to grasp the concept of recycling.

lord_khaine
2007-05-01, 04:05 PM
i must say i would call this bad Gm'ing as well, you are in the freaking forgotten realms, you got countless forgotten empires full of ancient artifacts, you got more epic lv wizards than just about any other campaign setting, and you got a entire empire who is specalised in selling magical goods.

and as it has been mentioned before, its assumed you have access to stuff like that in your challenge rating.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-01, 04:07 PM
i think your DM needs to remember something about FR....level 17th mages dont grow on trees, but when there are multiple ARchmages running around there is a high probablity that there will in fact be wizards making items...like Thay...

Morty
2007-05-01, 04:09 PM
Yeah, but if players can just say "alright, we buy this and this, thank you" it's bad GMing. The fact that it's high magic setting doesn't have to mean that magic junk is lying on every shelve in every shop, you know.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-01, 04:13 PM
well in FR....yes it does...go to Nar for a little while and look around if your 17th level, the demons wont be to bad. Or heck, go to Thay, they are the wal-mart of the wizard world. The fact there is an empire's whole idea for conquest is to buy out the magical items market....yes you can buy this this and this, though you might have to go over hells half acre to get it

Laurellien
2007-05-01, 04:13 PM
Meh, if you're in a low-magic setting, dandy-fine for you if you can't buy potions/scrolls/rods/whatever.

Forgotten realms, though, what the...that's a pretty dang epic setting.
Elminster probably produces metamagic rods as part of his digestive process (the end part).

Consider yourself sigged

Morty
2007-05-01, 04:18 PM
well in FR....yes it does...go to Nar for a little while and look around if your 17th level, the demons wont be to bad. Or heck, go to Thay, they are the wal-mart of the wizard world. The fact there is an empire's whole idea for conquest is to buy out the magical items market....yes you can buy this this and this, though you might have to go over hells half acre to get it

Yep. But you have to go somewhere, which is exactly what I mean. You can't buy them anywhere you like. Which I belive is the whole point of the thread.
It's a shame actually. FR is really nice setting, but as I see, it's knee deep in magic junk. As much as I love magic in fantasy I hate magic items. So our group plays FR as lower-magic setting.

Jayabalard
2007-05-01, 04:19 PM
That actually makes far more sense.Not necessarily.

in order to create a magic item you have to give up a portion of your essence (XP) to create it... certainly, you learn more about being a wizard by making the item, but not enough to offset the potion of your being that you have to give up to make the item.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-05-01, 04:34 PM
I tend to do the "The shopkeeper has so and so for sale" too... That way, I keep some sort of control over the magic items the party has...

And my players are (at least as of today) very naive when it comes to looting their enemies... At least twice they have passed on taking an enemy's magic weapon "because it was covered in evil runes and icky decorations"

Lemur
2007-05-01, 05:07 PM
To those reminiscing about 2nd ed, or arguing against the system: It should be noted that in 2nd edition, making a magic item was a much greater ordeal. If a wizard wanted to make an item, he'd essentially have to go on an adventure, or several adventures, in order to obtain the requisite materials. Plus the character would have to research what he had to do in game, meaning that the DM didn't just tell the player what he was going to need. Also, there were rolls for success involved, I think.

In 3.X, you just need the right feat, cash and XP. Much simpler. I'd say that the 3rd edition way of doing things is potentially more threatening to game balance.

Morty
2007-05-01, 05:09 PM
I've never played 2nd edition, but it does seem way more logical. Now in 3.5 it's so darn simple that it hurts.

Matthew
2007-05-01, 10:21 PM
In (A)D&D 2.x there were no fixed rules for creating magical items (until maybe the Options series), but it was no big deal.

Even in Faerun, there are limits to what can be purchased without notice. Powerful Organisations tend to hoard powerful magical items. Saying that, there are plenty of +1 items around, which is no big deal either.

Magical items seem to be much more common in D&D now because of the Wealth by Level and appropriate encounter guidelines. Like everything else, it's up to the DM to use those guidelines appropriately.

silvadel
2007-05-02, 01:18 AM
My solution for this is to not use the 3rd edition rules for magic item creation... Having it cost exp is kind of silly, and just saying "I want to make a +5 sword" -- uh huh -- spend a few thousand exp -- bam sword.

Things just arent that "easy" in my worlds.

Khoran
2007-05-02, 01:49 AM
Here is how I'm working with buying magic items when I get my campaign off the ground, roughly, it's not set in stone yet. Since I haven’t gone into deep detail about my world's smaller parts such as towns, and plan to make those up on the fly. However, I have developed a system for it, depending on the town size.

The following details the whether or not a Wizard is in the Town, and if so, what level they are

Thorp: No Wizard in town capable of making magic items. (At least, publicly)
Hamlet: 10%: 2d4 Level
Village: 20%: 2d4 Level
Small Town: 30%: 2d6 Level
Large Town: 40% 2d6 Level
Small City: 60%: 2d8 Level
Large City: 80% 2d8
Metropolis: d4 Wizards, Roll 2d8 per Wizard.
Arcane Academy: 1 Master Wizard: 1d10+10 for level to a maximum of 17, Plus multiple apprentices of varied levels.

It's how I'm going to control the Magic Items in my world, as well as bring some realism and false depth to the world :P

Dausuul
2007-05-02, 02:00 AM
And my players are (at least as of today) very naive when it comes to looting their enemies... At least twice they have passed on taking an enemy's magic weapon "because it was covered in evil runes and icky decorations"

Hey, those are the best kind! First they eat your enemies' souls. Then they try to eat yours. If they fail, you get to look all bad-ass with your soul-eating sword. If they succeed, you still look all bad-ass, but you also have that aura of angst and doom going on. What's not to like?

Irenaeus
2007-05-02, 03:28 AM
I tend to do the "The shopkeeper has so and so for sale" too... That way, I keep some sort of control over the magic items the party has...

I would suspect that manufacturers don't usually have anything at all in their shelves. Possibly something that was commissioned but not claimed for some reason. Considering the xp-cost, simply making items to stack the shop seems nonsensical. You wait for an order, recieve your money up-front and then start the creation process.

Some merchants might specialize in buying items from adventurers and such and then reselling them. Those might have a higher number of items just lying around.

Tor the Fallen
2007-05-02, 03:39 AM
I would suspect that manufacturers don't usually have anything at all in their shelves. Possibly something that was commissioned but not claimed for some reason. Considering the xp-cost, simply making items to stack the shop seems nonsensical. You wait for an order, recieve your money up-front and then start the creation process.

Some merchants might specialize in buying items from adventurers and such and then reselling them. Those might have a higher number of items just lying around.

What magic items that were sold by previous adventurers?

JellyPooga
2007-05-02, 05:07 AM
I would suspect that manufacturers don't usually have anything at all in their shelves. Possibly something that was commissioned but not claimed for some reason. Considering the xp-cost, simply making items to stack the shop seems nonsensical. You wait for an order, recieve your money up-front and then start the creation process.

Some merchants might specialize in buying items from adventurers and such and then reselling them. Those might have a higher number of items just lying around.

Personally I like the idea of "trinket" shops (usually called things like "Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe" or similar) that have a myriad of minor magic items (worth no more than X gold, where X increases with level/location - location being more important in the equation, but level being there for game balance) available. These shops basically have anything of X value or less available on demand (though there may be some exceptions) and represent the shops that buy/sell all that magical gear adventurers loot/find/steal/etc. If the PC's want anything better (i.e. more expensive) they have to commission it or make it themselves.

d12
2007-05-02, 07:41 AM
My general response to questions over where all these neat magical items come from or who makes them is "eh, it's not worth worrying about." Given the number/strength/expense of magical items needed just to survive, I tend to regard anything that actively detracts from the ability to acquire said items in a timely fashion as anti-fun. So naturally I tend to not be a big fan of item creation. I never really understood the you-become-less-experienced-for-some-reason aspect of it (Full Frontal Nerdity had a good analogy: it's like a programmer writing Halflife 2, but afterwards he's only able to write Pong for some reason). And it takes so friggin long to make anything. Sure, to make this upcoming battle/campaign go smoother you need to give your sword some extra enhancements/abilities, you'll want lots of extra scrolls handy, maybe a couple wands for quick healing, and other assorted odds and ends. But do you really think World-Threatening Terror Mk 54 is going to wait for 3 months while you get that taken care of? Screw that, just drop your coin, pick up your magical doodads, and head off to do what the rest of the world is too lazy, incompetent, or stupid to do on their own.

The one time I ever gave any consideration to the super-abundance of magical items needed to make just about any item available at any time for any random band of wandering mercenaries, the result was Magical Gear R Us (queue Persistent Image ad): a cosmos-spanning chain of stores specializing in useful magical doodads for people on the go. All of our stores are staffed by trained, knowledgeable celestials and fiends [yes, together] from all corners of the multiverse. Don't think we have a particular item in stock? Too rare or unusual? Wanna bet? All of our branch locations have keyed portals to our home office and warehouse in Sigil, packed to the gills with extra-dimensional storage areas. I mean, look--here's an entire bin full of bags of tricks..and who in the Nine Hells ever uses those? Need a +3 anarchic flaming burst giantbane bastard sword? We got ya covered. Come to Magical Gear R Us. If we don't have it, it probably doesn't exist.

Of course, I don't have any conceptual problems with such a super-chain store, especially if it has the pleasant side effect of allowing the game to progress at a pace not actively hostile to the human lifespan. Side note: the +3 anarchic flaming burst giantbane bastard sword is actually an item I once rolled up as part of a random adult red dragon horde. The final loot total value was almost 3 times the suggested value for a CR15 dragon horde. :smallbiggrin:

Talya
2007-05-02, 09:43 AM
the number/strength/expense of magical items needed just to survive, I tend to regard anything that actively detracts from the ability to acquire said items in a timely fashion as anti-fun.

This forum is a living proof that you don't need said items in a timely fashion to survive. Every single build listed is munchkinned out to the point of ridiculousness with gear that makes an equal CR pathetic vs. even the lowliest of lone fighters, let alone wizards. People complain about classes being overpowered, when they list what they can do they've got them tricked out in the most optimized possible gear.

Let the DM dole out the gear as he sees fit and you avoid that problem.

Matthew
2007-05-02, 09:55 AM
Yes, indeed, that is a core problem (no pun intended) of D&D. CR is calculated (loosely and by whatever method) with a certain level of power in mind on the part of the Player Characters. Exactly what that power level is very difficult to agree upon. Some claim that custom Magic items are required, some that they are not. Some claim Elite Array, other something more powerful. I tend to err on the side of caution, but there will always be somebody dissatisfied with how things are done.

kellandros
2007-05-02, 10:06 AM
If I recall, 2nd Edition had as an additional cost to making magic items(or other high level spells like wish) a permanent loss of a constitution point, per casting. I could be mistaken.

Now, permanently losing constituion(with only exceptionally rare means to gain constitution points) is quite a bit more painful than loss of XP.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-05-02, 10:30 AM
Hey, those are the best kind! First they eat your enemies' souls. Then they try to eat yours. If they fail, you get to look all bad-ass with your soul-eating sword. If they succeed, you still look all bad-ass, but you also have that aura of angst and doom going on. What's not to like?

Sure Elric, whatever you say... (mutter mutter, sickly little runt, cant do anything without your sword, mutter mutter)


Some merchants might specialize in buying items from adventurers and such and then reselling them. Those might have a higher number of items just lying around.

In true Computer RPG tradition, lol


If I recall, 2nd Edition had as an additional cost to making magic items(or other high level spells like wish) a permanent loss of a constitution point, per casting. I could be mistaken.

Now, permanently losing constituion(with only exceptionally rare means to gain constitution points) is quite a bit more painful than loss of XP.

Very true... I believe the spell was called Enchant an Item, and you had to cast it first, followed by casting the spells relevant to result needed, and then Permanency.

d12
2007-05-02, 12:46 PM
I guess it depends on your definition of "munchkinned out." To an extent, just how absolutely necessary magical items are for survival does depend on what exactly you're encountering in a given game. If you're fighting nothing but goblin warrior-x's the entire time then you're probably not going to need many things outside of standard magical weapons and armor. But goblins tend to get boring pretty quickly. If you're going to have more challenging opponents, then more stuff is probably going to be a good idea. I like to not get hit now and then, and I like not failing saves, so you bet I'm gonna stock up on things that increase AC or give miss chances and boost saves. If there's some fireophilic mage somewhere that needs to be smacked then I'm probably going to want some fire resistance as well (be it from spell or item) cuz I like not dying from fire damage. Extra con and str are always nice. More dex is great if you're an archer or mage. Pretty soon you're going to be a walking bundle of magical stuff.

Now granted, that's pretty standard stuff and my default approach is from one playing a mostly melee-ish class (and the general consensus seems to be that you're screwed on your own in such case, so more goodies = more better). Some of the more recent magic item additions for casters, such as metamagic rods and such may or may not be ridiculous, but my experience with most things caster is more limited. At the least, casters probably don't need any more help winning.

Whether or not CR-appropriate stuff is made pathetic by all that stuff listed above, I don't know, but I'd rather err on the side of effectiveness, or at the least, survival. As for feat/class selection and its impact on power, that's a different discussion. But if even that qualifies as "munchkinned out" to you, then it's probably a good thing that we stay far away from each other's games. :smallbiggrin:

PinkysBrain
2007-05-02, 06:57 PM
Some merchants might specialize in buying items from adventurers and such and then reselling them. Those might have a higher number of items just lying around.
In the Eberron setting magical transport of items is a trivial matter even for non casters, so it wouldn't be too strange to suppose a system of coops for stores to share their stock (in fact it would be strange to suppose such a thing not existing).

IMO rolling magic items and not allowing magic item shoppees at least for the basic stuff (AC/save increasing items, potions etc.) is just bad DMing. You are just asking for a party of clerics (and 1 wizard) if you do that. If you don't want shoppees you should make sure that at least part of the loot covers the essentials. Playing a fighter is hard enough without not getting a good cloak of resistance because of bad rolls.

Irenaeus
2007-05-03, 01:33 AM
I suspect each game setting will vary, but my main point is that magic item production should seldom be in advance. When per RAW the creator must sacrifice XP in the creation process, s/he wants to be sure that the item will be sold soon, and at least for the going rate. XP is incredibly precious. Operating with a "fully stacked shelves"-policy is seldom done with very expensive merchandize, especially not it there is a high degree of customization to the product. This becomes even more unattractive if there is not some megacorporation to make the production financially secure.

This has the significance that the characters must either
a) select items from whatever is at hand (e.g. orders that are not picked up for some reason)
or
b) Commision the creation of an item, probably pay in advance, and wait for the item to be made.

The Eberron setting and with the magic item transport thingy mentioned is a good example for why the availability could be much higher in some settings, but something on that scale is needed for a setting to have most items instantly available.

LotharBot
2007-05-03, 02:08 AM
I miss 2nd Edition, when you actually GAINED XP for making magical items.

The way I DM, you gain XP for overcoming challenges appropriate to your character.

That means the characters (generally NPCs, but a PC could play such a character) who are built as craftsmen gain XP for making magical items, or at the very least, they don't lose much for the high-XP-cost items. The assumption I make is that, as they craft the items, they'll get better at crafting items, thereby gaining levels.

A character who is built for combat will lose XP if they spend much time crafting items, because they're being distracted from their combat training.

And a character who is built to run a temple will gain XP as they run the temple. They don't need to kill monsters or solve quests, they just have to get better at running the temple.

(This happens to work neatly in conjunction with one character taking leadership for role-play reasons. Her cohort runs a local temple while she's out adventuring. He stays exactly 2 levels behind because, while she's out killing monsters, he's healing people and crafting items in the service of Ehlonna.)

Edo
2007-05-03, 02:08 AM
In 3.X, you just need the right feat, cash and XP. Much simpler. I'd say that the 3rd edition way of doing things is potentially more threatening to game balance.Then again, it's not terribly hard to force a sidequest by outlining the big items that cash breaks down into.

Realistically, unless we're talking about day-project stuff, any commercially available magic item isn't going to be made with item creation feats. It's going to be made by casting planar binding, whistling up a genie, and using wishes to put enchantments on a third-party masterwork. (It takes two to get a weapon up to +3, or armor to +4.)

I'd agree with Irenaeus and JellyPooga; aside from day projects, Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe probably has nothing on the shelves except things that it swapped/traded/won/found/bought off mercenaries. Anything it can realistically sell is safer to create by order; anything it can't pull together with planar binding is too expensive to sell, and also too hot to handle.