Diviner Wizard advice needed

[JohnDaBarr]

Planing on playing a Diviner Wizard and would appreciate any helpful advice. Probably gonna start around lvl 6 but that may change.
Probably going to take variant Human and I am torn between Alert or Resilient on constitution feats. Or is there a better choice?

I see that Portent ability is quite useful but since I am not yet knowledgeable with 5ed spells can someone point out some good combos?

Also considering taking 2 lvls of Rogue after lvl 12. Is that a good idea?

[GiantOctopodes]

As a diviner, the #1 feat I'd go for is Lucky, to allow more dice manipulation, since it's fun and something your class does well.

What are you looking to get out of the Rogue levels? Is it just a flavor thing, or is there a mechanical benefit you're after?

[Madfellow]

Probably going to take variant Human and I am torn between Alert or Resilient on constitution feats. Or is there a better choice?

I see that Portent ability is quite useful but since I am not yet knowledgeable with 5ed spells can someone point out some good combos?

Also considering taking 2 lvls of Rogue after lvl 12. Is that a good idea?

Alert and Resilient are both good.
5e isn't really about combos as much as it is having the right tool for a given job.
I'd say one level of rogue, not two.

[Sigreid]

Planing on playing a Diviner Wizard and would appreciate any helpful advice. Probably gonna start around lvl 6 but that may change.
Probably going to take variant Human and I am torn between Alert or Resilient on constitution feats. Or is there a better choice?

I see that Portent ability is quite useful but since I am not yet knowledgeable with 5ed spells can someone point out some good combos?

Also considering taking 2 lvls of Rogue after lvl 12. Is that a good idea?

Alert isn't the best feat, but it fits for a diviner and isn't ever bad. For spells at first level shield, sleep and magic missile. In general with my wizard I don't take many combat spells and instead focus mainly on facilitating things that are more difficult or expensive for the rest of the party. Arcane eye, banish, comprehend languages, identify, legend lore, etc. Odds are your party has killing down pretty good and cantrips and a couple aoe to thin out moods will suffice.

[WickerNipple]

As a diviner, the #1 feat I'd go for is Lucky, to allow more dice manipulation, since it's fun and something your class does well.


And be a Halfling. Still waiting to see a Lucky Halfling Diviner destroy a table.

[JohnDaBarr]

As a diviner, the #1 feat I'd go for is Lucky, to allow more dice manipulation, since it's fun and something your class does well.

What are you looking to get out of the Rogue levels? Is it just a flavor thing, or is there a mechanical benefit you're after?

Well damn, thx for increasing my list of good feats to take, I forgot to consider Lucky....

I am considering Rogue both because fluff and mechanically, getting 2 more skill prof and cunning action looks good to me.

[Madfellow]

Well damn, thx for increasing my list of good feats to take, I forgot to consider Lucky....

I am considering Rogue both because fluff and mechanically, getting 2 more skill prof and cunning action looks good to me.

Good things to have, but I worry about delaying your spellcasting progression by two levels.

[Slipperychicken]

Starting at level 6 means you can have 3rd level spells, but also put your first level in fighter and have 18-19 AC (between armor, shield, and armor style. You want to use a medium armor like scale mail). That'll help cover up your squishiness, and maybe you can pick acrobatics to help out against grapple attempts. I'm AFB, believe you also get either action surge or second wind at fighter level 1.

For your human bonus feat, it's hard to go wrong, really. Lucky is good, as is Alert. Since you want your save DCs high, the level 4 ASI absolutely must increase intelligence.

My best advice for combos is to ready your action and cast hold person right after an enemy boss finishes his turn. Make him auto-fail his save, and get your martials to focus him; he's unlikely to survive a round of advantaged auto-crits, especially if you have a few fighter types. This gets better when you have hold monster and can target almost any boss. Suggestion is another good one, to make an enemy surrender or command his buddies to do so.

[WampDiesel]

And be a Halfling. Still waiting to see a Lucky Halfling Diviner destroy a table.

I am about to be a DM for my main group. One of the players is seriously considering being a halfling diviner wizard with lucky depending on the other players. If he picks that option I will let you know how it pans out.

If you want additional skill proficiencies you could also start with a level in Knowledge Cleric. Doesn't hinder spell slot progression, gives armor proficiency, and expertise on two knowledge based skill checks. Flavor it as someone who wanted to know everything there ever was but figured why stop there when I can learn everything that ever could be as well.

As far as feat recommendations, I recently played a gnome diviner wizard and I cannot recommend "Resilient: CON" enough. Having a +7 to CON saves was amazing. 90% chance to maintain conc. on a DC 10 (only a 1 or 2 failed). If you were to be a halfling that somehow got a +8 to CON saves you literally couldn't fail a basic DC 10 conc. unless you rolled two 1s in a row (1 in 400 chance).

Remember that low rolls are amazing for making enemies mess up (fail saves or miss attacks) and that at lvl 6 diviner you can cascade your divination spells to add approximately 50% more spells per day.

I often started off the day using Mage armor into Locate Object into Clairvoyance. Then I would only be missing a 3rd level spell but I had cast 3 so far.

[JohnDaBarr]

Thx on the reply's

First two stat progressions I'll be spending on Int, because 20 Int is a must, and I'll probably wait with multiclassing till lvl 10. Knowledge Cleric seems to be a good choice. IS Bards Jack of all trades worth the investment?
And taking Resilient on Con seems to be the best idea, since it is one of the most common saves AND also concentration as someone mentioned.

Also using Portent to make sure Disintegrate pulls through seem to be the nastiest thing around.

[Madfellow]

IS Bards Jack of all trades worth the investment?


Not if you're already dipping a level in rogue and/or cleric.

[WampDiesel]

First two stat progressions I'll be spending on Int, because 20 Int is a must.

It doesn't need to be though. The system is designed so that your stats don't have to be the best to be effective. Put an odd stat in con and get con resilient at level 4 wiz and you get 4 more HP immediately and 1 more per level after that and a bonus +3 to con saves that now scales (getting another +1 when prof goes up next level). In my opinion most of the worst monster effects are CON saves even though i can only think of poison, petrify, banshees wail, and undead life drain right now.

That scaling bonus to con does a lot more for keeping your frail wizard self alive and your spells active than your +1 spell DC if monsters are intelligent enough to realize the threat of the guy wearing no armor quietly chanting. If you are going to use concentration spells at all either warcaster or resilient con are almost required. 35% chance to lose a spell when hit is way too high. Especially if that spell is haste and now the fighter is stopped in time in the middle of a mob.

[JohnDaBarr]

Not if you're already dipping a level in rogue and/or cleric.

Well I am trying to decide between Bard, Fighter, Cleric or Rogue for 1-2 lvls of multiclassing. The reason for multiclassing is that I like my character to be skillful as possible, and since I can't really get more that 6 skill proficiencies on a Wizard the Jack of all trades ability seem like a decent alternative.


It doesn't need to be though. The system is designed so that your stats don't have to be the best to be effective. Put an odd stat in con and get con resilient at level 4 wiz and you get 4 more HP immediately and 1 more per level after that and a bonus +3 to con saves that now scales (getting another +1 when prof goes up next level). In my opinion most of the worst monster effects are CON saves even though i can only think of poison, petrify, banshees wail, and undead life drain right now.

That scaling bonus to con does a lot more for keeping your frail wizard self alive and your spells active than your +1 spell DC if monsters are intelligent enough to realize the threat of the guy wearing no armor quietly chanting. If you are going to use concentration spells at all either warcaster or resilient con are almost required. 35% chance to lose a spell when hit is way too high. Especially if that spell is haste and now the fighter is stopped in time in the middle of a mob.

So far I am planing on taking Resilient on constitution at lvl 1, then stat boost on lvl 4 and 8. Now lvl 12 seems to be a runoff between Alert and Lucky or.... how about Resilient on Dex? Is that actually worth it?

[Millface]

Well I am trying to decide between Bard, Fighter, Cleric or Rogue for 1-2 lvls of multiclassing. The reason for multiclassing is that I like my character to be skillful as possible, and since I can't really get more that 6 skill proficiencies on a Wizard the Jack of all trades ability seem like a decent alternative.



So far I am planing on taking Resilient on constitution at lvl 1, then stat boost on lvl 4 and 8. Now lvl 12 seems to be a runoff between Alert and Lucky or.... how about Resilient on Dex? Is that actually worth it?

I'm going to strongly suggest that you choose between being a Wizard and being Skillful. Wizards don't like multiclassing, you're tying one hand behind your back in most cases when you divert from Wizard.

If you want skillful, play a Half-Elf Bard. You get 7 skill proficiencies from level 1, expertise @2, then Jack of All Trades. Take Lore and you get ANOTHER 3 skill proficiencies. Bringing you to 10 total, two of which you are double proficient in, plus you get the full list of Bard spells, 2 from any class @6, 10, 14, and 18.

If you want to play a Diviner Wizard, play a Diviner Wizard. I would bet money you'll regret it if you try the Wizard and multiclass.

Having said that, spells that don't seem great from the title but are actually absurdly good are Animate Objects, Counterspell, Wall of Force, Misty Step, Stinking Cloud, Silent Image to create illusory cover (You can put a metal box around you that enemies can't see through but you can, allowing you to cast from full concealment until they figure it out), and Move Earth.

I can't tell you how many times I've used Move Earth to solve random problems.

[SharkForce]

strictly speaking, resilient is a single feat and you can only take it once, so resilient dex is kinda decent but not worth not getting resilient con.

in general, i'd say resilient dex is certainly nice, but not nice enough that i'd take it over simply raising an attribute for a wizard.

[JohnDaBarr]

I'm going to strongly suggest that you choose between being a Wizard and being Skillful. Wizards don't like multiclassing, you're tying one hand behind your back in most cases when you divert from Wizard.

If you want skillful, play a Half-Elf Bard. You get 7 skill proficiencies from level 1, expertise @2, then Jack of All Trades. Take Lore and you get ANOTHER 3 skill proficiencies. Bringing you to 10 total, two of which you are double proficient in, plus you get the full list of Bard spells, 2 from any class @6, 10, 14, and 18.

If you want to play a Diviner Wizard, play a Diviner Wizard. I would bet money you'll regret it if you try the Wizard and multiclass.

Having said that, spells that don't seem great from the title but are actually absurdly good are Animate Objects, Counterspell, Wall of Force, Misty Step, Stinking Cloud, Silent Image to create illusory cover (You can put a metal box around you that enemies can't see through but you can, allowing you to cast from full concealment until they figure it out), and Move Earth.

I can't tell you how many times I've used Move Earth to solve random problems.

As far as I know taking a 1-2 lvl dip does not really hinder Wizards and in some cases it is extremely useful, the best example is probably 2 lvl Fighter dip where a Wizard gets access to armor, shields and Action Surge that allows him to cast 2 spells in one turn once between short rests.


strictly speaking, resilient is a single feat and you can only take it once, so resilient dex is kinda decent but not worth not getting resilient con.

in general, i'd say resilient dex is certainly nice, but not nice enough that i'd take it over simply raising an attribute for a wizard.

If I am not mistaken Resilient feat can be taken for every attribute respectively if one should wish to do so.

[WampDiesel]

So far I am planing on taking Resilient on constitution at lvl 1, then stat boost on lvl 4 and 8. Now lvl 12 seems to be a runoff between Alert and Lucky or.... how about Resilient on Dex? Is that actually worth it?

My apologies, I missed that somewhere. I forgot about the variant human bonus feat. Also get Lucky at 12 just because it fits the theme. You have your extra portent die by that time and have 3 rerolls and 3 predetermined rolls per day.

Also like Shark Force mentioned you cant take a feat more than once unless it explicitly says so like elemental adept. So no Resilient" DEX.

[JohnDaBarr]

Also like Shark Force mentioned you cant take a feat more than once unless it explicitly says so like elemental adept. So no Resilient" DEX.

This I didn't know. I there a link that clarifies this because I didn't find any such restrictions in the book?

[Millface]

As far as I know taking a 1-2 lvl dip does not really hinder Wizards and in some cases it is extremely useful, the best example is probably 2 lvl Fighter dip where a Wizard gets access to armor, shields and Action Surge that allows him to cast 2 spells in one turn once between short rests.


If I am not mistaken Resilient feat can be taken for every attribute respectively if one should wish to do so.

If you're going to use a shield war caster is necessary as a feat. If your Dex is at least 16 Mage Armor grants the same benefit as Splint Mail.

Action surge allows for another cantrip, but you can't cast more than one 1st + level spell in a turn, even with Action Surge.

So, 1/day extra Firebolt and +1 AC for being a spell level behind what you should be. For sure, do what you think is fun. I'm just pointing out that it's not worth it from an optimization standpoint. At middle levels I'd much rather have a 1/day Animate objects, then 1/day Globe of Invuln/Disintegrate, so on and so forth as you progress than a firebolt and +1 AC.

That's not even taking into account the delayed ASI you get as a result of any dip.

If you want skills there's a perfectly potent full casting class that gives that to you.

TL;DR it definitely hinders you. A wizard standing beside you who didn't dip is going to be casting Disintegrates at 20 INT while you're casting an extra Firebolt @ 18 INT and you're stuck on 5th level spells. Wizards, in fact, are generally MOST hindered by multiclassing out of any other class, because all they do is cast spells at wide variety.

[GiantOctopodes]

I'm going to strongly suggest that you choose between being a Wizard and being Skillful. Wizards don't like multiclassing, you're tying one hand behind your back in most cases when you divert from Wizard.

If you want skillful, play a Half-Elf Bard. You get 7 skill proficiencies from level 1, expertise @2, then Jack of All Trades. Take Lore and you get ANOTHER 3 skill proficiencies. Bringing you to 10 total, two of which you are double proficient in, plus you get the full list of Bard spells, 2 from any class @6, 10, 14, and 18.

If you want to play a Diviner Wizard, play a Diviner Wizard. I would bet money you'll regret it if you try the Wizard and multiclass.

Having said that, spells that don't seem great from the title but are actually absurdly good are Animate Objects, Counterspell, Wall of Force, Misty Step, Stinking Cloud, Silent Image to create illusory cover (You can put a metal box around you that enemies can't see through but you can, allowing you to cast from full concealment until they figure it out), and Move Earth.

I can't tell you how many times I've used Move Earth to solve random problems.

I have to respectfully disagree with this. Wizards can afford a level or two of dip without severe loss, and a level of fighter is often recommended for the proficiencies, or 2 levels of warlock for the at will damage. I don't see a 2 level dip as being too much to be skillful. That being said, I absolutely agree on being a half elf. +2 skills goes a long way towards being a skillful character. A variant human who chooses skilled can get 4 proficiencies, but then they have to be a human, and in the long run they are less skilled than a half elf who eventually picks up the skilled feat (4 vs 5).

Here's my thoughts on the classes you are considering:

Bard: If you could afford 3 levels of a dip I'd say go for it, but you can't. 3 levels would give you +4 skills, expertise on two of them, and jack of all trades. 2 levels only gives you 1 additional skill and jack of all trades, which is not worth it for a two level dip.

Cleric: Cleric gets you 2 languages, 2 skills, and expertise in both, as well as the most underrated advantage of that dip- guidance. Guidance is useless in combat (you'll never be concentrating on it instead of another spell) but out of combat represents a +2.5 bonus to *any* ability check, usable at will. Note that Jack of All Trades provides at most a +2 bonus until 17th level, and that unlike Jack of All trades, Guidance can be used not just for that with which you don't already add your proficiency bonus, but for those which you *do* add it as well. It also is incredibly thematic for a diviner. Should you take the 2nd level, you get 1/ short rest proficiency in *any* tool or skill. Going from nothing to proficiency+2.5 on demand? Talk about a jack of all trades! Cleric is definitely my recommendation.

Fighter: Fighter gets you action surge, which is great, martial weapons, which you'll likely never need or use, and +2 AC vs the Cleric (heavy armor and the armored fighting style providing a base 19 AC, or 21 with shield, vs half plate giving 17, or 19 with shield). In exchange, it does absolutely nothing to make you more skillful. A useful dip, but not one I'd recommend for your character.

Rogue: Rogue gives you up to 2 additional skills and expertise in 2 skills, and gives you cunning action, which you can use to dash (combined with haste, that's up to 180' per round of movement, very impressive, but I'm not sure how often 120' won't suffice), disengage (keep in mind that spellcasting does not draw AoOs in 5e unless they have the mage slayer feat), or hide (not that you gain a bunch of sneak attack damage from it, just useful for hiding in general). Potentially useful actions and you get them each and every round of combat, but not at all useful for your skills.

Hope that helps!


If you're going to use a shield war caster is necessary as a feat. If your Dex is at least 16 Mage Armor grants the same benefit as Splint Mail.

Action surge allows for another cantrip, but you can't cast more than one 1st + level spell in a turn, even with Action Surge.

So, 1/day extra Firebolt and +1 AC for being a spell level behind what you should be. For sure, do what you think is fun. I'm just pointing out that it's not worth it from an optimization standpoint. At middle levels I'd much rather have a 1/day Animate objects, then 1/day Globe of Invuln/Disintegrate, so on and so forth as you progress than a firebolt and +1 AC.

That's not even taking into account the delayed ASI you get as a result of any dip.

If you want skills there's a perfectly potent full casting class that gives that to you.

TL;DR it definitely hinders you. A wizard standing beside you who didn't dip is going to be casting Disintegrates at 20 INT while you're casting an extra Firebolt @ 18 INT and you're stuck on 5th level spells. Wizards, in fact, are generally MOST hindered by multiclassing out of any other class, because all they do is cast spells at wide variety.

War Caster is nice and all, but I normally assume Wizards and other Casters who can are running around with a shield in one hand and an empty hand for spellcasting in the other. Since Cantrips provide at will damage, I don't know what they would ever put in that second hand which would negate the free hand requirement for somatic components and necessitate warcaster.

Where do you get that Action Surge does not allow a 2nd 1st level+ spell? Are you thinking perhaps of quicken spell, which has that effect thanks to the rules on bonus action spells? Since Action Surge is a full action, and does not interact with the rules for bonus action spells, I don't see how such a limitation would exist or even be inferred. Also it's once per short rest (likely 3x per day) not once per day, just saying.

Also if you're going fighter you *must* take it at 1st level, to get heavy armor in the mix, which means you're getting Full Plate (eventually) which is +5 AC vs Mage Armor in your scenario (18 +1 for the Defense fighting style, which is the only fighting style I can see a prospective mage taking, +2 from the shield for a total of 21 AC vs the 16 from Mage Armor), as well as not requiring more than 13 dex (for multiclassing).

I mean, I certainly don't think Fighter is worth it for him, but I'm surprised you're knocking it so much. It's not like there aren't benefits. Of course, Cleric for a one level dip splits the difference (total 19 armor) and does far more for your skills, and its second level power is far more thematically appropriate and awesome imho than the fighter's action surge, but I don't think it's fair at all to say there's *no* benefits to fighter, or to under represent them like that.

[Millface]

War Caster is nice and all, but I normally assume Wizards and other Casters who can are running around with a shield in one hand and an empty hand for spellcasting in the other. Since Cantrips provide at will damage, I don't know what they would ever put in that second hand which would negate the free hand requirement for somatic components and necessitate warcaster.

Where do you get that Action Surge does not allow a 2nd 1st level+ spell? Are you thinking perhaps of quicken spell, which has that effect thanks to the rules on bonus action spells? Since Action Surge is a full action, and does not interact with the rules for bonus action spells, I don't see how such a limitation would exist or even be inferred. Also it's once per short rest (likely 3x per day) not once per day, just saying.

Also if you're going fighter you *must* take it at 1st level, to get heavy armor in the mix, which means you're getting Full Plate (eventually) which is +5 AC vs Mage Armor in your scenario (18 +1 for the Defense fighting style, which is the only fighting style I can see a prospective mage taking, +2 from the shield for a total of 21 AC vs the 16 from Mage Armor), as well as not requiring more than 13 dex (for multiclassing).

I mean, I certainly don't think Fighter is worth it for him, but I'm surprised you're knocking it so much. It's not like there aren't benefits. Of course, Cleric for a one level dip splits the difference (total 19 armor) and does far more for your skills, and its second level power is far more thematically appropriate and awesome imho than the fighter's action surge, but I don't think it's fair at all to say there's *no* benefits to fighter, or to under represent them like that.

I'm going to tackle this one paragraph at a time :-)

1. If you're not using a Focus in that off hand then you need to be tracking even minor components, which is a real pain in the ass. If you have a focus in one hand you need your other hand free for somatic components.

2. Re-reading it you're correct here. You can't cast a bonus action spell and any 1st+spell in one turn, but it doesn't say that you can never cast two 1+ spells in one turn, just that you can't with a bonus action spell. Point conceded.

3. Taking fighter @ 1 does give you potentially 19 AC, but your saving throw proficiencies being STR/CON is, in my opinion, a severe setback. Wisdom proficiency is huge because it helps you save from being Held/Dominated by enemy casters straight away. This, along with being 2 levels behind on spell progression, doesn't seem worth it to me. I would challenge someone to play their Wizard this way and I'll play a straight class one and we'll see who wishes they'd done differently, but it's the internet and I can't. At higher levels having to wait several weeks/months of real time to get Forcecage/Teleport/Simulacrum/Wish/Clone etc... is just not worth some AC and a once per SR double cast. You can greatly effect a fight with two spells in one round, you can END a fight with 7-9th level spells.

4. I'm not knocking fighter in general, of all the potential dips it hinders a Wizard least in all but very specialized cases. Warlock is cool too, if you do it up right. But then I'd go Abjuration for the ward because it combos so, so nicely with Armor of Agythys. I'm really just knocking multiclassing your wizard at all. Behind on ASIs and spell progression, not proficient in the saves most used by enemy casters... and your benefits from multiclassing aren't nearly as high as a Sorcerer (who can quicken spells so EB get's awesome) or Bards (Who can multiclass into martials for some cool combos). Wizards cast spells, this is all they do. Slowing down the rate at which they grow in that is more detrimental than it would be with other casting classes.

Especially when, with all of this, he can just drop the Diviner tag, take lucky instead, and play a Bard to get everything he wants without having to slow down spell progression at all. He can even play the character like a seer if thematically its important. He can have more skills (lore) or armor and a shield (valor) without having to dip at all, and with magical secrets his spell pool is almost as big.

For all the huffing I'm doing though what it comes down to is what is fun. I'm only arguing what is optimal.

[SharkForce]

you can perform somatic components with the hand that holds an arcane focus.

[Millface]

you can perform somatic components with the hand that holds an arcane focus.

I suppose you can. Huh. Weird call, Wizards.

That makes fighter better, admittedly. It doesn't make any sense to me, but RAW wins.