How do you deal with sunlight sensitivity? (Drow)

[The Shadowdove]

Hey everyone,



Sunlight Sensitivity. You have disadvantage on attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight when you, the target of your attack, or whatever you are trying to perceive is in direct sunlight.


I haven't had many players in my games play drow. I also would like to incorporate drow npcs/enemies in my campaign.

The only thing is, most of players are hesitant to play drow because they aren't the type to be as interested in the nature of the dark elves as they are in the racial bonuses.

What kind of ways would a 'drow' who has been to the surface a number of times or above for a while make their racial limitations less of a hindrance?

I imagine, if they an not get used to it, they'd find ways to cope/make it so their enemies aren't capable of taking advantage of their limitations.

I'd like to know what you guys have come up with or can come up with.
Thanks for taking the time to share your superior experience/book knowledge!

-Dove

[GiantOctopodes]

if someone wanted a surface adapted drow I'd let them either drop their darkvision to 60' or drizzitfy themselves and drop their drow magic. Doing either would be enough for me to feel comfortable getting rid of the sunlight sensitivity.

In terms of coping with it, you would just prioritize going out at night, and / or go to areas that are routinely overcast (like the Vampires from twilight) since indirect sunlight is fine, it's only direct sunlight that causes issues.

[1Forge]

some people buy "sunglasses" other than that i'd take a feat as soon as possible to either A get some sort of spell to provide advantage or shade, or B take a feat that gives blind sense, or again advantage (i think theres a feat for it but im not sure AFB)

[EvilAnagram]

Be a caster who specializes in saving throw spells.
Cast Faerie Fire to wash out the disadvantage.
Cast other spells that grant advantage.
Cast Bless or Guidance.
Plan excursions and travel for night.
Plan for most battles to occur indoors or in the forest.
Be in an Underdark adventure.
Through wicked, eldritch rituals, plunge the world above into eternal darkness.
Magic Missile.

[GiantOctopodes]

Through wicked, eldritch rituals, plunge the world above into eternal darkness.


Clearly the best option.

[The Shadowdove]

some people buy "sunglasses" other than that i'd take a feat as soon as possible to either A get some sort of spell to provide advantage or shade, or B take a feat that gives blind sense, or again advantage (i think theres a feat for it but im not sure AFB)



Be a caster who specializes in saving throw spells.
Cast Faerie Fire to wash out the disadvantage.
Cast other spells that grant advantage.
Cast Bless or Guidance.
Plan excursions and travel for night.
Plan for most battles to occur indoors or in the forest.
Be in an Underdark adventure.
Through wicked, eldritch rituals, plunge the world above into eternal darkness.
Magic Missile.


What other alternatives are there like 'sunglasses'? A sheer blindfold perhaps?

Faerie fire = 1x/day?

what forms of low-light/darkness/overcast items/spells are there?

[Chadamantium]

Just get some sunglasses and if someone complains about sunglasses not existing in that world(it's happened), Whip out you own pair, put them on and respond with "deal with it."

[MadGrady]

Just get some sunglasses and if someone complains about sunglasses not existing in that world(it's happened), Whip out you own pair, put them on and respond with "deal with it."

As a DM...... I would probably have to allow this

[DracoKnight]

What other alternatives are there like 'sunglasses'? A sheer blindfold perhaps?

In my world the Drow as a race are experts at crafting a minor magic item: "The Cloak of Darkness:" while wearing this cloak, you may not have disadvantage imposed on you by direct sunlight, and in darkness, you may hide as a bonus action. You may remain hidden until you move or take an action.

[The Shadowdove]

What if the drow obtained the "devils sight" ability that's described in the warlock invocations section?

Would s/he need to be blindfolded?

[JellyPooga]

The simple answer is; you don't. Just suck it up. If you can't engineer the scenario to fight in the shade (underground, at night, etc.), then you should have the disadvantage. It's there for a reason, after all. "Solutions" like sunglasses are a cop-out for players that want to play something exotic, but don't want to hinder themselves. It'd be like expecting to be accepted in normal human society when you're playing a Goblin. It just ain't gonna happen, Bub.

If, as a GM, one of my players wanted to play a Drow, then I'd flat-out reject any attempt at outright negating any of their disadvantages, mechanical or RP-wise. They're free to attempt a partial mitigation; hooded cloaks disguising their features, or running away from fights in direct sunlight, for example, but anything more than that is right out, in my book.

[DracoKnight]

The simple answer is; you don't. Just suck it up. If you can't engineer the scenario to fight in the shade (underground, at night, etc.), then you should have the disadvantage. It's there for a reason, after all. "Solutions" like sunglasses are a cop-out for players that want to play something exotic, but don't want to hinder themselves. It'd be like expecting to be accepted in normal human society when you're playing a Goblin. It just ain't gonna happen, Bub.

If, as a GM, one of my players wanted to play a Drow, then I'd flat-out reject any attempt at outright negating any of their disadvantages, mechanical or RP-wise. They're free to attempt a partial mitigation; hooded cloaks disguising their features, or running away from fights in direct sunlight, for example, but anything more than that is right out, in my book.

I would have been inclined to agree with you until they released the Svirfneblin. They have the same Underdark homeland Superior Darkvision, without the negative of Sunlight Sensitivity.

[ZenBear]

I would have been inclined to agree with you until they released the Svirfneblin. They have the same Underdark homeland Superior Darkvision, without the negative of Sunlight Sensitivity.

And their magic comes with a Feat tax. I wonder if removing Sensitivity and applying the same tax is the solution, but do Drow have enough uniqueness without their magic to be worth it?

[Slarg]

The simple answer is; you don't. Just suck it up. If you can't engineer the scenario to fight in the shade (underground, at night, etc.), then you should have the disadvantage. It's there for a reason, after all. "Solutions" like sunglasses are a cop-out for players that want to play something exotic, but don't want to hinder themselves. It'd be like expecting to be accepted in normal human society when you're playing a Goblin. It just ain't gonna happen, Bub.

If, as a GM, one of my players wanted to play a Drow, then I'd flat-out reject any attempt at outright negating any of their disadvantages, mechanical or RP-wise. They're free to attempt a partial mitigation; hooded cloaks disguising their features, or running away from fights in direct sunlight, for example, but anything more than that is right out, in my book.

What if, in said world, Goblins were a respectable race? It would give you more options to create dynamic NPCs, and it allows the character to play what they want.

[Yora]

Just get some sunglasses and if someone complains about sunglasses not existing in that world(it's happened), Whip out you own pair, put them on and respond with "deal with it."

http://orig02.deviantart.net/74a8/f/2009/169/6/4/agent_elron_by_shadowcheetah.jpg

[DracoKnight]

And their magic comes with a Feat tax. I wonder if removing Sensitivity and applying the same tax is the solution, but do Drow have enough uniqueness without their magic to be worth it?

I wouldn't make them drop their magic. Mainly because players at my table don't really utilize racial spells to begin with, but I don't think that Sunlight Sensitivity should have been given to them at all. There is no other race in the PHB that gets such a downside. People can't even argue that they have it because they're from the Underdark anymore, because again the Svirfneblin don't get Sunlight Sensitivity. And the Svirfneblin get a very Wood Elf-like trait in Stone Camouflage, which is actually really good. So...logically I don't see why the Drow got this disadvantage when literally no other race in the PHB or expansion books has a disadvantage at all, let alone something of this magnitude.

[Rhaegar14]

The simple answer is; you don't. Just suck it up. If you can't engineer the scenario to fight in the shade (underground, at night, etc.), then you should have the disadvantage. It's there for a reason, after all. "Solutions" like sunglasses are a cop-out for players that want to play something exotic, but don't want to hinder themselves. It'd be like expecting to be accepted in normal human society when you're playing a Goblin. It just ain't gonna happen, Bub.

If, as a GM, one of my players wanted to play a Drow, then I'd flat-out reject any attempt at outright negating any of their disadvantages, mechanical or RP-wise. They're free to attempt a partial mitigation; hooded cloaks disguising their features, or running away from fights in direct sunlight, for example, but anything more than that is right out, in my book.

I feel like you're making it more black-and-white than it is. The Drow's ability to engineer that scenario is entirely dependent on the DM creating the original scenario that can be so engineered. As a DM I wouldn't want to worry about making sure the Drow player can get around Sunlight Sensitivity.

[ThermalSlapShot]

The only time I touch the drow is if I'm playing a sorcerer and I never touch the d20 under my own power.

Well, I did play a Drow lfe cleric once, it was pretty awesome.

So Drow Cleric or Sorcerer and I never touch the d20.

I've found that if you remove the sunlight sensitivity it doesn't really unbalance much past very low levels.

[DracoKnight]

The only time I touch the drow is if I'm playing a sorcerer and I never touch the d20 under my own power.

Well, I did play a Drow lfe cleric once, it was pretty awesome.

So Drow Cleric or Sorcerer and I never touch the d20.

I've found that if you remove the sunlight sensitivity it doesn't really unbalance much past very low levels.

That's certainly one way to deal with it :)
Personally I like the Drow Draconic Sorcerer :D

[Shining Wrath]

Drow are not lacking in magical ability.

I homebrewed a spell similar to Darkvision which removes sunlight sensitivity. My drow character may not take it, though; she thinks it's part of her character.

She also didn't take Human as a language (no Common in my world). Role-playing rather than high-op.

[Elbeyon]

She also didn't take Human as a language (no Common in my world). Role-playing rather than high-op.What about the drow on spelljammers raised by light elementals? What about them!? Some good roleplay might include getting some darkshard glasses for they can look at their parents for the first time without feeling pain, right?

[RedMage125]

I want to make it a point to point out that only DIRECT sunlight imposes penalties on drow.

A wide-brimmed hat, or a hooded cloak with hood up should be sufficient.

[Elbeyon]

Got it. Child wears hat to show love.

[Rhaegar14]

I want to make it a point to point out that only DIRECT sunlight imposes penalties on drow.

A wide-brimmed hat, or a hooded cloak with hood up should be sufficient.

This is a common misconception. The rules text clearly states "You have disadvantage on attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight when you, the target of your attack, or whatever you are trying to perceive is in direct sunlight." Or. Frankly by the rules as written, "sunglasses" shouldn't even work (though that's absurd from a common sense standpoint).

[JellyPooga]

What if, in said world, Goblins were a respectable race? It would give you more options to create dynamic NPCs, and it allows the character to play what they want.

This is changing the parameters of the setting. If you want to play in a world where Goblins are upright citizens and the Drow live happily on the surface-world, then there's potential there for simply changing the rules. Under this circumstance, it's likely that the Goblin would have a higher average Charisma and the Drow doesn't have Sunlight Sensitivity. If that's the case, you don't need a workaround because your setting is saying there's nothing there to be worked around.

In the setting posited by the default rules, Goblins are filthy, evil, monsters and the Drow dwell deep underground and are hindered in bright light. The fact that Deep Gnomes don't suffer the same penalties is entirely beside the point; that's like saying that because Elves get the same +2 Dex as Halflings, that Elves should also have the same Lucky trait that Halflings do. Different races have different sets of abilities; just because one ability is shared between two races doesn't mean all their abilities should be shared.

@Rhaegar14: That's rather my point. As a GM, I'm not going to pander to the player who wants to play a Drow, who also wants to play without the disadvantage that race imposes. Unless he goes out of his way to only get into combat at night or underground, such as by sleeping during the day or running from daylight encounters, he's just going to have to eat that penalty as part and parcel of being a Drow. He chose it, he can deal with the consequences, just as much as the player who plays a Half-Orc will have to deal with prejudice in "civilised" areas or the player playing a Halfling having to deal with not being able to reach the top shelf in a human's pantry.

[Rhaegar14]

It's really hard to know for certain without knowing a particular DM's style (as well as a campaign style), but in my mind "You're not a caster? Ha, have fun being crippled every time we have to fight in daylight," is a significantly greater penalty than having to deal with prejudice in roleplay, and I especially dislike that it affects certain builds (such as the iconic Drow two-weapon fighter) more than others. I'm also of the mind that it's not worth the other good stuff Drow get, but then, I might be biased because I like Drow characters.

Still, different strokes for different folks, as they say.

[Elbeyon]

This is a common misconception. The rules text clearly states "You have disadvantage on attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight when you, the target of your attack, or whatever you are trying to perceive is in direct sunlight." Or. Frankly by the rules as written, "sunglasses" shouldn't even work (though that's absurd from a common sense standpoint).Nothing on a planet with an atmosphere is in direct sunlight. Thus, no drow gets disadvantage unless they are in space with no matter between them and the sun. Now, that's the rules as written.

[JellyPooga]

Still, different strokes for different folks, as they say.

Indeed.

As you say, campaign styles differ and in my mind (and games), a social prejudice is as significant a disadvantage as being ineffective in direct sunlight, if not more. As I mentioned, simply being asleep during the day, such that your waking and "adventuring" day is in darkness, is an effective and appropriate (for the Race) way of avoiding the combat penalty, although this does have its own peculiar disadvantages (shops being closed, "civilisation" being largely asleep, etc.).

I should mention, I'm not a member of the Drow Fan Club; for me, playing a Drow is something I'd only ever do if I were playing an all-Drow (or similar "play a monster") game or if I thought they were an "optimal" choice in a high-OP game...and those are games I'm unlikely ever to play. I'm not criticising, just saying I'm on the other side of the fence to you, in that regard.

[Shining Wrath]

Nothing on a planet with an atmosphere is in direct sunlight. Thus, no drow gets disadvantage unless they are in space with no matter between them and the sun. Now, that's the rules as written.

You evidently are not a gardener, where the phrase "direct sunlight" means "a person standing where this plant is can see the sun". I'm afraid if a player tried that argument on me it would be unsuccessful.

[Elbeyon]

My ability to "understand" the meaning of direct sunlight is inversely connected to the suckyness of the disability. This major drawback to a core race seems unnecessarily punishing to anyone that wants to play that race.

[DataNinja]

My ability to "understand" the meaning of direct sunlight is inversely connected to the suckyness of the disability. This major drawback to a core race seems unnecessarily punishing to anyone that wants to play that race.

Although, that core race is also subject to express DM approval...

[Elbeyon]

Yep. I don't see how that changes the mechanics of a core sub-race at all.

[EvilAnagram]

It's not terribly disabling in play.

The worst part of playing a Drow is that I have to use my Borat voice instead of The Monarch.

EDIT: I should mention that I usually use The Monarch's voice when I play a Sorcerer.

For reasons.

[JellyPooga]

Yep. I don't see how that changes the mechanics of a core sub-race at all.

I don't see how being a "core" race has anything to do with having a penalty or not. Drow have sensitivity to light just as much as Dragonborn have a breath weapon and scaly skin or half-orcs are strong and tough. Sure, no other "core" race has a disadvantage of this kind, so it might feel like "unnecessary punishment", but you're looking at it from the wrong angle; if they didn't have light sensitivity they wouldn't be Drow. Would it be a Halfling if it wasn't Small sized? No. Would it be a Dwarf without Stonecunning? No. Is it a Drow if it doesn't have light sensitivity? Not in my book. If you don't want the challenge of roleplaying that disadvantage, then I suggest that you don't really want to play a Drow, but rather a facsimile of one that hasn't got a traditional and integral feature of that race.

[Elbeyon]

It's a primary race of the game. To be punishing to play for the major of people and situations seems counter to the idea that.

A drow having disadvantage on attacks and perception is as integral to the concept of drows as gnomes getting advantage against some magic. It's the mechanics that are the issue. The penalty could have been a lot of things. Roleplaying doesn't need such a heavy handed approach. If you can't play out a drow's aversion to sunlight without disadvantage that's an issue on the roleplaying side, not the mechanical side. I don't need disadvantage specifically to roleplay a drow.

[rollingForInit]

How I'd deal with it would depend on the campaign. If the campaign was one about drow in particular, where the entire party is drow, I'd let them all have it. They could move around where it suits them. Likewise, if much of the campaign were to take place during the night or in caves, I'd probably tell the player that the drow would be fine most of the time.

If it were an average campaign in a generally sunny area with lots of outdoors activities, it'd depend on what class the person had in mind. A Knowledge Cleric using mostly Sacred Flame for damage and doing support otherwise? The disadvantage would only be to some perception checks, so I'd encourage the player to go with it. If the player wanted to do something else, like a Warlock or any martial character relying on attack rolls, I'd allow them to trade in their superior darkvision for to remove the disadvantage, and have them say that they drow has already spent a long time on the surface. Would make sense to me.

On a personal level, I'd enjoy have a bit of both. I have this idea of a drow Valor Bard ... I wouldn't mind starting off with the full disadvantage, despite attack rolls, because I'd trust the others in my group to have it almost never be an issue by having most fights away from direct sunlight, as anything else would just be plain cruel. But every now and then? Sure. But for such a martial character, I'd want the character to acclimate to the surface eventually, and trade in the superior darkvision for no disadvantage in direct sunlight.

[rollingForInit]

I don't see how being a "core" race has anything to do with having a penalty or not. Drow have sensitivity to light just as much as Dragonborn have a breath weapon and scaly skin or half-orcs are strong and tough. Sure, no other "core" race has a disadvantage of this kind, so it might feel like "unnecessary punishment", but you're looking at it from the wrong angle; if they didn't have light sensitivity they wouldn't be Drow. Would it be a Halfling if it wasn't Small sized? No. Would it be a Dwarf without Stonecunning? No. Is it a Drow if it doesn't have light sensitivity? Not in my book. If you don't want the challenge of roleplaying that disadvantage, then I suggest that you don't really want to play a Drow, but rather a facsimile of one that hasn't got a traditional and integral feature of that race.

I don't see how sunlight sensitivity give them disadvantage on fighting in sunlight has anything to do with being drow. It's no more a defining aspect of being a drow than having proficiency in hand crossbows, or for a tiefling to be able to cast Thaumaturgy at will.

I mean, the very iconic Drizzt managed quite well on the surface, in the sunlight, and didn't even have the aversion to sunlight many other drow had in the books. And I think Drizzt is more what many people playing drow are going for, rather than blood-thirsty, deceitful rapist-murderers.

[Mjolnirbear]

Drizzt had a mutation that let him adjust to the light. His eyes were violet instead of red in the darkness. He also gave up levitation, had an ebony figurine significantly more powerful than the ones available, and could fall into hunter mode at dire need to eliminate all distractions.

Saying Drizzt can do it, why can't i is like saying Elminster can cast so many spells, why can't i? Or Dove is one of the seven sisters, why can't i?

They are STORY BOOK CHARACTERS. They will be far more epic and far less balanced than your average PC.

Were i DMing i would be biting my tongue to avoid banning drow as pcs, because you always have that player who wants to be Drizzt. Drizzt is a cool character, but by gum, try to be a little more original! I'm frankly glad Sunlight Disadvantage is there--otherwise every game would be swamped with boring emo you-just-don't-understand-me-I'm-a-GOOD-drow characters.

I would no more allow a drow to cheese his way out of the iconic disadvantage than i would allow halfling barbarians or paladins weild heavy weapons without disadvantage. Or sorcerers cast without components, or clerics without a holy symbol Turn Undead. Limits are part of the game. Be a drow Deathsinger, use Vicious mockery, cast buffs and debuffs and never lay a hand on a weapon.

There is only one Drizzt, and no, you can't play as Drizzt.

[ThermalSlapShot]

Drizzt had a mutation that let him adjust to the light. His eyes were violet instead of red in the darkness. He also gave up levitation, had an ebony figurine significantly more powerful than the ones available, and could fall into hunter mode at dire need to eliminate all distractions.

Saying Drizzt can do it, why can't i is like saying Elminster can cast so many spells, why can't i? Or Dove is one of the seven sisters, why can't i?

They are STORY BOOK CHARACTERS. They will be far more epic and far less balanced than your average PC.

Were i DMing i would be biting my tongue to avoid banning drow as pcs, because you always have that player who wants to be Drizzt. Drizzt is a cool character, but by gum, try to be a little more original! I'm frankly glad Sunlight Disadvantage is there--otherwise every game would be swamped with boring emo you-just-don't-understand-me-I'm-a-GOOD-drow characters.

I would no more allow a drow to cheese his way out of the iconic disadvantage than i would allow halfling barbarians or paladins weild heavy weapons without disadvantage. Or sorcerers cast without components, or clerics without a holy symbol Turn Undead. Limits are part of the game. Be a drow Deathsinger, use Vicious mockery, cast buffs and debuffs and never lay a hand on a weapon.

There is only one Drizzt, and no, you can't play as Drizzt.

D&D better represents an action movie rather than a book anyways.

Also, technically, Drizzt may be playable soon... At least for the DM.

[Shining Wrath]

My ability to "understand" the meaning of direct sunlight is inversely connected to the suckyness of the disability. This major drawback to a core race seems unnecessarily punishing to anyone that wants to play that race.

Ah, I see. You want to play a Drow with all the listed advantages, but without the disadvantage. Do you notice all those spells Drow get to cast? See anything comparable for other choices? No, you don't. Much better than what the Tieflings get, for example.

I'll trade you. I homebrewed Surface Drow - they've fled the Underdark and lived on the surface long enough to lose the sunlight sensitivity. They've also lost all those spells. Fair trade?

[rollingForInit]

Drizzt had a mutation that let him adjust to the light. His eyes were violet instead of red in the darkness. He also gave up levitation, had an ebony figurine significantly more powerful than the ones available, and could fall into hunter mode at dire need to eliminate all distractions.

Saying Drizzt can do it, why can't i is like saying Elminster can cast so many spells, why can't i? Or Dove is one of the seven sisters, why can't i?

They are STORY BOOK CHARACTERS. They will be far more epic and far less balanced than your average PC.

Were i DMing i would be biting my tongue to avoid banning drow as pcs, because you always have that player who wants to be Drizzt. Drizzt is a cool character, but by gum, try to be a little more original! I'm frankly glad Sunlight Disadvantage is there--otherwise every game would be swamped with boring emo you-just-don't-understand-me-I'm-a-GOOD-drow characters.

I would no more allow a drow to cheese his way out of the iconic disadvantage than i would allow halfling barbarians or paladins weild heavy weapons without disadvantage. Or sorcerers cast without components, or clerics without a holy symbol Turn Undead. Limits are part of the game. Be a drow Deathsinger, use Vicious mockery, cast buffs and debuffs and never lay a hand on a weapon.

There is only one Drizzt, and no, you can't play as Drizzt.

And yet, Drizzt is held up as an example drow even in the PHB, where he figures as artwork. It makes sense that people would use that as an inspiration. I mean, it's a bit like an archetype. The drow that escapes the underdark and becomes a famous fighter. And it's not just Drizzt, there's a lot more of cool artwork in there of drow fighter-ish characters. And then ... suddenly you're discouraged from playing because it's seriously disadvantaged to play such a drow. It's all very counter-intuitive. Would've felt better in something like 4e where the drow race was hidden away in some supplement. But here, where the drow is mainstreamed, part of the PHB is encouraging melee drow, whereas the actual race description discourages it.

Also: how is "cannot effectively use melee or ranged attacks in sunlight" an innate drow feature? I get that some form as sunlight sensitivity is. For instance, I'd have been perfectly fine with it if it had just affected perception checks in direct sunlight. Or if it had been something more obscure, such as getting tired more easily when travelling through a lot of direct sunlight (e.g. deserts, tundras). But comat is generally a very central part of D&D (especially in prewritten adventures), and so slapping a heavy combat disadvantage on a race seems pretty ridiculous, when there are countless other ways to work in sunlight sensitivity. And what's worse is that it only affects certain types of attacks, so certain classes wouldn't even care about it, ever.

It would've been much more fine if every race or subrace had had innate severe disadvantages. Most don't, really. Certainly not in the same direct way. Which also feels out place, considering D&D's attempt to keep classes and races more or less balanced.

[Spacehamster]

Is there any spells or cantrips that produce dim light in an area that you could use to negate it? :)

[JellyPooga]

It's a primary race of the game. To be punishing to play for the major of people and situations seems counter to the idea that.

I disagree. Drow is not a primary race. It's an optional sub-race that's only available at GM discretion. That implies that playing a Drow should not be a common occurrence and should only be done under peculiar circumstances and/or with full knowledge of the implications of doing so. These implications include the social prejudice and physical limitations that Drow are subject to. If you're not happy playing with those limitations, then you probably shouldn't be playing a Drow character and I, as GM, would likely not allow you to do so.


A drow having disadvantage on attacks and perception is as integral to the concept of drows as gnomes getting advantage against some magic. It's the mechanics that are the issue. The penalty could have been a lot of things. Roleplaying doesn't need such a heavy handed approach. If you can't play out a drow's aversion to sunlight without disadvantage that's an issue on the roleplaying side, not the mechanical side. I don't need disadvantage specifically to roleplay a drow.

If you're going to model the Drow sensitivity to sunlight mechanically at all, I'm curious as to how you'd go about it. The rules as they stand seem to fit the bill. I'm struggling to think of a different rule that would model the same thing without being completely negligible. Since you claim the penalty could have been "lots of things", please enlighten me.

If there's an aspect of a race that could have rules attached to it, then that aspect probably should have a rule to model it. We're not talking about a social aspect of the race; Drow are typically cruel, murderous and evil. This is a "true" roleplaying aspect of the Drow and as such, can be changed at whim, depending on the character. There's no firm mechanic you can attach to this except saying that most Drow have an Evil Alignment. Their sensitivity to light, however, is a physical trait of the Drow, just as much as Halflings are short and Dwarves are tough. This is not something you can change easily, without putting in some kind of peculiar explanation; you're only half-Drow or you're a mutant freak of a Drow, for instance. At that point, you're not talking about your common every-day Drow, but an exception from the norm.

Sure, you could roleplay their sensitivity, just as you could roleplay a half-orc being strong and tough without their Str/Con bonus and Relentless Endurance, but if the mechanics of the game aren't backing you up, then the rules aren't doing their job properly. If you want to take away sunlight sensitivity from Drow, then you're changing what it means, physically, to be a Drow.

@rollingForInit: Being a Drow means being sensitive to sunlight just as much as it means, culturally, being proficient with hand crossbows and rapiers, physically being dextrous and charismatic and magically being able to cast faerie fire and darkness. These are the iconic traits of a Drow that can and are modeled within the rules. There are other aspects, such as their matriarchal society and predilection towards an evil nature, that aren't easily modeled in the rules. Take away any of them and you're not playing a "typical" Drow. If you want to play a non-typical Drow, knock yourself out, but don't claim that your version of a Drow is a common example of the race, whether that mean you're playing a Good aligned Drow or whether it mean you're a genetic aberration that can see perfectly well in bright sunlight. Drizzt is depicted as both of these things and I doubt anyone, either IC or OOC, would claim he's a "common" Drow!

[ThermalSlapShot]

I disagree. Drow is not a primary race. It's an optional sub-race that's only available at GM discretion.

I might have missed that disclaimer in the PHB, can anyone confirm this?

[JellyPooga]

I might have missed that disclaimer in the PHB, can anyone confirm this?

Take a look in your PHB, right above the "Ability Score Increase" under the Dark Elf sub-race.

[The Shadowdove]

Thank you all for taking time to reply and share your thoughts! I enjoy reading your opinions very much.

I would like to say that I ALSO like that drow have sunlight sensitivity as a part of their racial abilities. I loved each of the books involving the drow. So much that I never played one personally as I was afraid of being too fanboy in my role play.

I agree that the drow would not be who they are without it. It is something that was a part of who they are.

Also, jarlaxle acclimated to the sunlight even better than drizzt did.

The reason why I believe this thread important is because drow, while retaining their nature and racial abilities (sensitivity included) would be more intelligent than to NOT think of ways to prepare for battle in sunlight.

Of course they would still attack at the most opportune moments available, which is usually night time. Especially for drow.

However, would they not train or prepare spells/items to lift chances of their enemies taking advantage of their disabilities?

In the forgotten realms novel where th drow of menzoberanzan preparing a secret attack on mithril hall, they actually adjusted their eyes to light months in advance. They lit their city with candles, magical light, and torches expecting they may fight in lit areas while assaulting the, possibly, dwarves and their surface allies.

This may not be enough to become accustomed to direct daylight, but it's an example of an entire city (25,000) of drow who knew their lives may be forfeit if they did not consider certain possibilities.


That is why I full heartedly agree with, for example; a renegade exile drow who had too many enemies in the under dark.. So s/he is seeking to sell their skills on the surface, and use drizzts widdling of drow reputation to establish them self as a trustable and employable mercenary who can still walk about cities with their reputation unchallenged.

Why wouldn't they, after a couple of years on the surface, brainstorm a smaller version of their gnome acquaintances welding goggles/whatever?

Or use part of their amassed wealth to commission a minor magical item?


Also, frizzy gave up his levitation and magical items from the under dark. Jarlaxle did not. But wasn't his loss of levitation also partly due to the fact that his house token decayed magically too?

And in this edition, levitate is not a racial is it?


I am not trying to undermine any answers or belittle any personal perspectives.

This is just mine.


Everyone's d&d world is a bit different than the next, even if you share a realm.

I agree with nearly everything said in one way or another.

I still invite criticism and ideas/theories/ concepts!!!

Keep them coming!!

[ZenBear]

Drow have sensitivity to light just as much as Dragonborn have a breath weapon and scaly skin or half-orcs are strong and tough...
if they didn't have light sensitivity they wouldn't be Drow. Would it be a Halfling if it wasn't Small sized? No. Would it be a Dwarf without Stonecunning? No. Is it a Drow if it doesn't have light sensitivity? Not in my book.

If you were to ask a diehard 3E player, they would tell you a Half-Orc is not a Half-Orc without a penalty to Int and Cha, but they don't have that disadvantage anymore, do they?

Half-Orcs, Tieflings and Drow have an RP disadvantage in that they are pariahs in most civilized societies. The Drow are the only ones with a severe mechanical disadvantage for "RP reasons;" reasons which apparently only apply to them despite another playable race, the Svirfneblin, comes from the same environment that is the supposed cause for the disadvantage.

[JellyPooga]

a severe mechanical disadvantage

I keep seeing this (or phrases to the same effect). Is disadvantage on attack rolls in direct sunlight really that bad? I mean, take the average "adventure"; how much combat do you typically see that occurs both during the day and outside? The classic "dungeon delve" sees almost zero combat outside, a large portion of random encounters whilst travelling are either under cover of forest or at night, in city-based games most fights are again usually at night or within a building or in the sewers. I can't help but think that the penalty actually being imposed is not even nearly as bad as some are making it out to be. Sure, it's fairly crippling when the circumstances are right for it but, correct me if I'm missing the mark, those circumstances are actually pretty rare in play (at least in my experience).

[ThermalSlapShot]

Take a look in your PHB, right above the "Ability Score Increase" under the Dark Elf sub-race.

I'll do that once I get back to my home state...

All I have access to right now is the Basic Rules.

[rollingForInit]

If you're going to model the Drow sensitivity to sunlight mechanically at all, I'm curious as to how you'd go about it. The rules as they stand seem to fit the bill. I'm struggling to think of a different rule that would model the same thing without being completely negligible. Since you claim the penalty could have been "lots of things", please enlighten me.



These are all suggestions, all them could probably be refined and balanced a lot.

* The sensitivty could've been imposed only on long range, which would've affected some perception checks, and maybe the maximum range of ranged weapons. They could've reasoned that someone rigorously trained (perhaps even on the surface) in combat wouln't care so much about sunlight, even if they're generally sensitive.

* There could've been something about exhaustion, e.g. if you travel for X amount of time under the gazing sun (in deserts, tundras, open grasslands) you get a level of exhaustion.

* Speaking of exhaustion, it could've just been modelled after it. "When in direct sunlight, you are treated as if having a level of exhaustion", which would'v meant disadvantage on ability checks. A significant drawback, but nothing that discourages you from playing a lot of classes.

* It could've meant losing your superior darkvision temporarily. Something like "after 1 month on the surface, you lose your superior darkvision. You regain it if you spend a month away from sunlight".

* It could've affected your other drow features. For instance, lose your extra darkvision if you've spent the majority of the last month out during daytime. Get it back if you spend the majority of out during nights or underground. It could've stated that your innate spellcasting doesn't work during daylight hours, or that it doesn't work if you or the targetted area is in direct sunlight.

* They could've had the possibility of getting blinded. For instance, if you glance directly at the sun, you're blinded for a round. A bit easy to avoid, but something that'd be worse when it happens, but much rarer than being in direct sunlight.

Those are the ones I could come up with off the top of my head. None of them dramatically affects a drow's combat ability, but are still significant drawbacks from sunlight exposure. Some of them even provide a better basis for role-playing the sensitivity.



@rollingForInit: Being a Drow means being sensitive to sunlight just as much as it means, culturally, being proficient with hand crossbows and rapiers, physically being dextrous and charismatic and magically being able to cast faerie fire and darkness. These are the iconic traits of a Drow that can and are modeled within the rules. There are other aspects, such as their matriarchal society and predilection towards an evil nature, that aren't easily modeled in the rules. Take away any of them and you're not playing a "typical" Drow. If you want to play a non-typical Drow, knock yourself out, but don't claim that your version of a Drow is a common example of the race, whether that mean you're playing a Good aligned Drow or whether it mean you're a genetic aberration that can see perfectly well in bright sunlight. Drizzt is depicted as both of these things and I doubt anyone, either IC or OOC, would claim he's a "common" Drow!

As I said, I agree that being sensitive to sunlight is a decent drow feature, but sunlight sensitivity doesn't have to be an impaired fighting ability. It makes sense to me that a drow that's spent years on the surface and rigorously trained to fight would've acclimated to be able to fight properly. As I outlined above, there are many other ways that sunlight sensitivity could be implemented.

Also, I never said that Drizzt is a common drow. I said that he's a common archetype, and from reading about people playing drow, it seems that it's something a lot of people want to play. The racial entries in the published material don't even depict "common" people from the races, as is indicated by the Svirfneblin racial entry, that even states that most Svirfneblin don't speak Common at all, but they still have it listed as a known language because adventurers know it (and others who commonly deal with outsiders). Because, adventurers are never common people. An adventuring elf isn't a common elf. Adventuring parties are regularly exceptional individuals. An adventuring drow wouldn't be a common drow; it'd be an exceptional drow. So stating that drow adventurers must have disadvantage at attacks rolls during daylight because common drow are super sensitive to sunlight makes no sense, since it should be possible for exceptional drow to overcome it, somehow, to some degree.

[Kerilstrasz]

Sorry for not reading all the answers, so i may be 2nd or 3rd.

Give the drow "Riddick-like" goggless..
2 leatherbound dark lences.. not hard at all to find.. get a leatherworker to saw the goggles, find a glassmith to make 2 lences..
i don't thing this could cost more than.. hmm.. 10gold max??

[ThermalSlapShot]

These are all suggestions, all them could probably be refined and balanced a lot.

* The sensitivty could've been imposed only on long range, which would've affected some perception checks, and maybe the maximum range of ranged weapons. They could've reasoned that someone rigorously trained (perhaps even on the surface) in combat wouln't care so much about sunlight, even if they're generally sensitive.


While you or your target is in direct sunlight the range on all of your weapons and spells is halved. This can't bring a range below 5'. Round up.

This makes it balanced between casters and weapon users. You just can't see as well in direct sunlight.

It makes a Drow want to go melee more but that isn't all that different from what I've seen people play (lots of melee types being played).

[rollingForInit]

While you or your target is in direct sunlight the range on all of your weapons and spells is halved. This can't bring a range below 5'. Round up.

This makes it balanced between casters and weapon users. You just can't see as well in direct sunlight.

It makes a Drow want to go melee more but that isn't all that different from what I've seen people play (lots of melee types being played).

Yeah. And many times an archer or spellcaster will not be at their max range anyway. And there are ways to build around that, obviously, if you invest in feats (e.g. Spell Sniper for extra range), which I think is fine since it signifies extra training to somewhat overcome the disadvantage.

[JellyPooga]

* The sensitivty could've been imposed only on long range, which would've affected some perception checks, and maybe the maximum range of ranged weapons. They could've reasoned that someone rigorously trained (perhaps even on the surface) in combat wouln't care so much about sunlight, even if they're generally sensitive.

This one I'd be content with, out of the suggestions you posted. Don't get me wrong, my query was honest and not meant facetiously (though reading back, it certainly reads that way; my apologies). The ones about exhaustion don't give the right "feel" to me and the ones about losing/modifying Superior Darkvision and blindness seem negligible; too easily glossed over, if you know what I mean.


Also, I never said that Drizzt is a common drow. (snip) adventurers are never common people. (snip) since it should be possible for exceptional drow to overcome it, somehow, to some degree.

I agree with the sentiment that adventurers are not common people, but I disagree with the notion that as "uncommon" people they necessarily should be able to overcome their weaknesses, even if only partially, by such mundane means as simple exposure or dark glasses. As protagonists in a tale, Player Characters are best defined by their weaknesses, not their strengths; the best heroes are those with a tangible weakness and the best stories involve those heroes dealing with those weaknesses through adversity, not merely by plot convenience or what have you (which is one reason why I'm not a fan of the Drizz't stories).

In the case of the Drow, dealing with their weakness in sunlight should probably involve the aforementioned engineering of their circumstances such that they avoid sunlight and everything this entails, from not being able to easily function in society (on top of the prejudice against them) due to their nocturnal sleeping patterns, to running away from fights they know they probably won't win because they're at that disadvantage. For myself, that the penalty is harsh only reinforces this, because if it were not, then the conception of Drow being twilight-raiders and such are not so convincing.

[VoxRationis]

These are all suggestions, all them could probably be refined and balanced a lot.

* The sensitivty could've been imposed only on long range, which would've affected some perception checks, and maybe the maximum range of ranged weapons. They could've reasoned that someone rigorously trained (perhaps even on the surface) in combat wouln't care so much about sunlight, even if they're generally sensitive.

Yep, because exposure to painfully high amounts of light is totally irrelevant if you're trying to look at something 10 feet away.


* There could've been something about exhaustion, e.g. if you travel for X amount of time under the gazing sun (in deserts, tundras, open grasslands) you get a level of exhaustion.
People give the frenzied berserker, which flies into a blind rage, flak for this. Why would you consider giving exhaustion penalties for squinting to be both reasonable and fairer to players?



* Speaking of exhaustion, it could've just been modelled after it. "When in direct sunlight, you are treated as if having a level of exhaustion", which would'v meant disadvantage on ability checks. A significant drawback, but nothing that discourages you from playing a lot of classes.

* It could've meant losing your superior darkvision temporarily. Something like "after 1 month on the surface, you lose your superior darkvision. You regain it if you spend a month away from sunlight".

* It could've affected your other drow features. For instance, lose your extra darkvision if you've spent the majority of the last month out during daytime. Get it back if you spend the majority of out during nights or underground. It could've stated that your innate spellcasting doesn't work during daylight hours, or that it doesn't work if you or the targetted area is in direct sunlight.



* They could've had the possibility of getting blinded. For instance, if you glance directly at the sun, you're blinded for a round. A bit easy to avoid, but something that'd be worse when it happens, but much rarer than being in direct sunlight.

This has three problems. Firstly, "glance directly" is an oxymoron. Secondly, temporary blindness from looking directly at the sun is something that applies to EVERYONE. Thirdly, when would that ever come into play? It's generally assumed that your characters go through the day not looking directly at the sun, the same way they are assumed not to go around cutting themselves, stepping in potholes, or licking garbage pails.




As I said, I agree that being sensitive to sunlight is a decent drow feature, but sunlight sensitivity doesn't have to be an impaired fighting ability. It makes sense to me that a drow that's spent years on the surface and rigorously trained to fight would've acclimated to be able to fight properly. As I outlined above, there are many other ways that sunlight sensitivity could be implemented.
"Hey, Verazzt. You don't look very well. What's up?"
"It's the sunlight. Millennia of adaptation to pitch darkness have left my people sensitive to the glare of the sun. I can barely see that sign over there, truth be told."
"Maybe we should camp until dusk; you'd make a pretty sorry archer if you can't see straight."
"Oh no, I can attack just as well as ever. I just can't notice things."


Also, I never said that Drizzt is a common drow. I said that he's a common archetype, and from reading about people playing drow, it seems that it's something a lot of people want to play. The racial entries in the published material don't even depict "common" people from the races, as is indicated by the Svirfneblin racial entry, that even states that most Svirfneblin don't speak Common at all, but they still have it listed as a known language because adventurers know it (and others who commonly deal with outsiders). Because, adventurers are never common people. An adventuring elf isn't a common elf. Adventuring parties are regularly exceptional individuals. An adventuring drow wouldn't be a common drow; it'd be an exceptional drow. So stating that drow adventurers must have disadvantage at attacks rolls during daylight because common drow are super sensitive to sunlight makes no sense, since it should be possible for exceptional drow to overcome it, somehow, to some degree.
A snowflake in July, eh? Better dig out my winter gear.

[ZenBear]

I keep seeing this (or phrases to the same effect). Is disadvantage on attack rolls in direct sunlight really that bad? I mean, take the average "adventure"; how much combat do you typically see that occurs both during the day and outside? The classic "dungeon delve" sees almost zero combat outside, a large portion of random encounters whilst travelling are either under cover of forest or at night, in city-based games most fights are again usually at night or within a building or in the sewers. I can't help but think that the penalty actually being imposed is not even nearly as bad as some are making it out to be. Sure, it's fairly crippling when the circumstances are right for it but, correct me if I'm missing the mark, those circumstances are actually pretty rare in play (at least in my experience).

That is your individual experience. In my games we are usually adventuring during the day and very often outdoors, especially when we have a Druid in the party which my girlfriend likes to play.

Disadvantage is huge! It's roughly equivalent to a -5 to hit and anything you do to gain advantage is negated, meaning it's suddenly a lot harder for a Drow Rogue to get Sneak Attack.

At most I would give Disadvantage to Perceptions in direct sunlight, disadvantage to attack rolls is too much. To cite Drzzt, he never seems to struggle with fighting in daylight, but he does get ambushed and nearly killed by Yeti in the first book because he couldn't see well in the glare.

[JellyPooga]

Disadvantage is huge!

I'm aware of how crippling Disadvantage is, I'm only querying how applicable the circumstances that disadvantage is being imposed in are and whether the mindset of "Drow are totally crippled because of it" is really all that valid.

From a mechanical point of view, Disadvantage is fairly easy to negate by simply gaining Advantage. There are many ways to do this, not least of which is using the Help action, which requires no dice rolls, no resource expenditure, only use of an Action. It's worse than the alternative of not having Disadvantage, but it at least allows you to function.

From a more campaign dependent point of view, I've already pointed out several styles of campaign that frequently involve little to no outdoor and day lit combat. The question I'd ask you is; if you're playing in a campaign that features mostly outdoor daytime activity, why are playing a character that you know will not do well under those circumstances? Even without the combat penalty, from a roleplaying perspective, it's highly unusual and you need to ask if you're playing a Drow because "playing Drow is cool" or because that character actually fits in this campaign somehow.

[DanyBallon]

Sorry for not reading all the answers, so i may be 2nd or 3rd.

Give the drow "Riddick-like" goggless..
2 leatherbound dark lences.. not hard at all to find.. get a leatherworker to saw the goggles, find a glassmith to make 2 lences..
i don't thing this could cost more than.. hmm.. 10gold max??

It's funny you say that, because Riddick is based on Vin Diesel drow character from when he was playing D&D :smallbiggrin:

I guess the signature goggles were its solution to light sensivity

[ThermalSlapShot]

It's funny you say that, because Riddick is based on Vin Diesel drow character from when he was playing D&D :smallbiggrin:

I guess the signature goggles were its solution to light sensivity

It wouldn't work with the 5e Drow.

The target is in direct sunlight, doesn't matter if you have glasses or not lol.

Mother of God(s)... What a great campaign idea though. Drow want to invade the surface so they set up a Mr Burns contraption for blocking out the sun (partially, need the sun to sustain life). But using magic and stuff...

You could have the tower fall as the players are fighting on it or it could be falling from orbit while the players try to fight an enemy and trying to steer it away from a city...

[The Shadowdove]

It's funny you say that, because Riddick is based on Vin Diesel drow character from when he was playing D&D :smallbiggrin:

I guess the signature goggles were its solution to light sensivity

You have no idea how much this amuses me

[Mjolnirbear]

Half-Orcs, Tieflings and Drow have an RP disadvantage in that they are pariahs in most civilized societies. The Drow are the only ones with a severe mechanical disadvantage for "RP reasons;" reasons which apparently only apply to them despite another playable race, the Svirfneblin, comes from the same environment that is the supposed cause for the disadvantage.

Sunlight sensitivity is not a rp disadvantage. It is a physical reason.

Further drow are drow not because of evolution, but because of a curse. Corellon banished them. It is entirely within the realm of possibility that they have sunlight sensitivity because of this banishment. And this may be why deep gnomes and myconids and goblins from the underdark don't have it.

Lastly, if it IS because of evolution, there is no such thing as every species evolving exactly the same way. An article just came out that after humans and chimps split on the evolutionary tree, humans hands stayed the same but chimp hands continued to evolve. So drow got sunlight sensitivity through internal evolutionary processes, not because the underdark causes every underspecies to evolve it.

[Shining Wrath]

Thank you all for taking time to reply and share your thoughts! I enjoy reading your opinions very much.

I would like to say that I ALSO like that drow have sunlight sensitivity as a part of their racial abilities. I loved each of the books involving the drow. So much that I never played one personally as I was afraid of being too fanboy in my role play.

I agree that the drow would not be who they are without it. It is something that was a part of who they are.

Also, jarlaxle acclimated to the sunlight even better than drizzt did.

The reason why I believe this thread important is because drow, while retaining their nature and racial abilities (sensitivity included) would be more intelligent than to NOT think of ways to prepare for battle in sunlight.

Of course they would still attack at the most opportune moments available, which is usually night time. Especially for drow.

However, would they not train or prepare spells/items to lift chances of their enemies taking advantage of their disabilities?

In the forgotten realms novel where th drow of menzoberanzan preparing a secret attack on mithril hall, they actually adjusted their eyes to light months in advance. They lit their city with candles, magical light, and torches expecting they may fight in lit areas while assaulting the, possibly, dwarves and their surface allies.

This may not be enough to become accustomed to direct daylight, but it's an example of an entire city (25,000) of drow who knew their lives may be forfeit if they did not consider certain possibilities.


That is why I full heartedly agree with, for example; a renegade exile drow who had too many enemies in the under dark.. So s/he is seeking to sell their skills on the surface, and use drizzts widdling of drow reputation to establish them self as a trustable and employable mercenary who can still walk about cities with their reputation unchallenged.

Why wouldn't they, after a couple of years on the surface, brainstorm a smaller version of their gnome acquaintances welding goggles/whatever?

Or use part of their amassed wealth to commission a minor magical item?


Also, frizzy gave up his levitation and magical items from the under dark. Jarlaxle did not. But wasn't his loss of levitation also partly due to the fact that his house token decayed magically too?

And in this edition, levitate is not a racial is it?


I am not trying to undermine any answers or belittle any personal perspectives.

This is just mine.


Everyone's d&d world is a bit different than the next, even if you share a realm.

I agree with nearly everything said in one way or another.

I still invite criticism and ideas/theories/ concepts!!!

Keep them coming!!

As I said - Drow know magic for the most part, and certainly know OF magic. A Drow who had chosen to live on the surface would find a wizard who could devise Remove Sunlight Sensitivity - which I imagine would be pretty similar to the Darkvision spell, as it adjusts the eyes to light conditions that they are not accustomed to. If the Drow had no spell slots, they might get a gnome to create a gadget, but gadgets are more an "our world" solution than a "D&D" solution, unless you're on Eberron in which case a magical gadget would be available.

[DanyBallon]

You know that drows can cast darkness once per day for raids on surface dwellers that would extend beyond the cover of night. I'd allow a drow sociecty to research some more powerful mean to bring darkness to the surface so they don't have to figth in direct sunlight.

I do like the idea of the giant contraption that block sunlight. :smallbiggrin:

[ThermalSlapShot]

You know that drows can cast darkness once per day for raids on surface dwellers that would extend beyond the cover of night. I'd allow a drow sociecty to research some more powerful mean to bring darkness to the surface so they don't have to figth in direct sunlight.

I do like the idea of the giant contraption that block sunlight. :smallbiggrin:

Doesn't really help unless the drow can see through magical Darkness.

Really all it does is gives everyone disadvantage, which at that point just call it a wash and no one can have advantage and roll normally (so combat time doesn't go on forever).

[GiantOctopodes]

I'm aware of how crippling Disadvantage is, I'm only querying how applicable the circumstances that disadvantage is being imposed in are and whether the mindset of "Drow are totally crippled because of it" is really all that valid.

From a mechanical point of view, Disadvantage is fairly easy to negate by simply gaining Advantage. There are many ways to do this, not least of which is using the Help action, which requires no dice rolls, no resource expenditure, only use of an Action. It's worse than the alternative of not having Disadvantage, but it at least allows you to function.

From a more campaign dependent point of view, I've already pointed out several styles of campaign that frequently involve little to no outdoor and day lit combat. The question I'd ask you is; if you're playing in a campaign that features mostly outdoor daytime activity, why are playing a character that you know will not do well under those circumstances? Even without the combat penalty, from a roleplaying perspective, it's highly unusual and you need to ask if you're playing a Drow because "playing Drow is cool" or because that character actually fits in this campaign somehow.

From a mechanical point of view, it is absolutely crippling regardless. Assuming an even shot to hit (50%), disadvantage turns that into 25%. First of all, only succeeding 25% of the time just isn't fun, and seeing those good rolls getting negated is psychologically draining. Using the Help action doesn't actually fix that at all- rather, you are using an action, probably someone else's who doesn't have disadvantage, to turn your roll into a regular to-hit roll. That's still halving the effectiveness. Even if you had circumstances where it doesn't cost you *anything* to provide advantage (highly unlikely unless you're using variant rules or the 9th level spell Foresight), you're still moving to a 50% to hit chance, rather than the 75% chance you would have with advantage. Meaning that were you not as crippled before, you'd be doing 3/2 as much damage as you are now. You are *always* crippled, and the best you can hope for is evening that out, you can never gain advantage, ever. That doesn't seem very "negated" to me.

From a more campaign dependent point of view, what's wrong with wanting to play something because it's cool? I absolutely want to play a Fire Genasi character with fire for hair, who uses "control flames" (or whatever the cantrip is) to change the color of the flames each day, to blue, green, purple, or whatever else, like someone who dyes their hair a different color every day. Super emo? Maybe. Totally irrelevant to the 'story' of the campaign? Absolutely. But it's cool, and I would have fun playing such a character. And that is, after all, why we play games in the first place, is to have fun. In addition, those who see him and don't understand what the deal is with fire genasi may assume he's some sort of demon or devil, and I think there is the chance for interesting and meaningful roleplay opportunities there. Not at all dissimilar to the drow.

As much as games are all about having fun, the opportunity to address issues of prejudice and societal mistreatment, and how we deal with that as individuals, can be an impactful experience. Not all DMs want to deal with that. That's why the race is only allowed with DM discretion, and why it would not be inappropriate for a DM to allow a character to be drow and just handwave away the social issues that come with it, or to say that they don't want to do that and just disallow the race entirely. So if you have decided to allow a character to play a drow, I don't think it should be a "trap" choice where just based on the majority of party members faring best under the sun, your party often travels and adventures during the day and sleeps at night, and you end up being terribad as a result.

It can easily end up where not only are you dealing with negative social interactions, often having the choice of avoiding social interactions entirely or having hostility or other negative consequences arise due to your presence, but you also absolutely suck in combat, providing exactly half as much benefit as the same character of a different race, and you also suck at exploration since you can't see anything. In return, it's not like you have auto advantage at night or anything. In fact, thanks to the way darkvision works, you *still* have disadvantage on perception checks based on sight in the absolute darkness wherein you supposedly "thrive". You are only without disadvantage on those, ironically, under areas of bright or dim light which is not sunlight, such as by the light of a torch.

Does that seem to flow logically to you? To me, it seems just like the race is kinda screwed and poorly designed. Their "superior darkvision" should have been that they treat areas of absolute darkness as though they are brightly lit, and if you're going to give them auto disadvantage on everything in the daytime, that only seems balanced to me if they have auto advantage on everything in absolute darkness. Since auto advantage on everything is as stupid as auto disadvantage, I would instead let them simply fashion goggles which would provide disadvantage on perception checks as though they were in dim light (it is harder to see with sunglasses after all) but no combat disadvantages. I'd also have them treat both areas of bright light and dim light as though they're dimly lit, and treat areas of darkness as though they're brightly lit, to reflect their natural inclination towards darkness and acclimation to it. This would preserve the flavor and still provide interesting mechanical trade offs, in my opinion far better than the current setup does, and without the absurd mechanical disadvantages levied by the current system.

[rollingForInit]

This one I'd be content with, out of the suggestions you posted. Don't get me wrong, my query was honest and not meant facetiously (though reading back, it certainly reads that way; my apologies). The ones about exhaustion don't give the right "feel" to me and the ones about losing/modifying Superior Darkvision and blindness seem negligible; too easily glossed over, if you know what I mean.

I agree with the sentiment that adventurers are not common people, but I disagree with the notion that as "uncommon" people they necessarily should be able to overcome their weaknesses, even if only partially, by such mundane means as simple exposure or dark glasses. As protagonists in a tale, Player Characters are best defined by their weaknesses, not their strengths; the best heroes are those with a tangible weakness and the best stories involve those heroes dealing with those weaknesses through adversity, not merely by plot convenience or what have you (which is one reason why I'm not a fan of the Drizz't stories).

In the case of the Drow, dealing with their weakness in sunlight should probably involve the aforementioned engineering of their circumstances such that they avoid sunlight and everything this entails, from not being able to easily function in society (on top of the prejudice against them) due to their nocturnal sleeping patterns, to running away from fights they know they probably won't win because they're at that disadvantage. For myself, that the penalty is harsh only reinforces this, because if it were not, then the conception of Drow being twilight-raiders and such are not so convincing.

I totally get what you're after, and I really agree that weaknesses are fun to role-play around. At least to me, though, it gets much less fun when it results in debilitating conditions that affect an important part of the game - when no other race has similar disadvantages. There are rpg's where mechanical disadvantages are a huge thing (Changeling: The Lost for instance) and there, it feels right and in place and mostly, very fair. It's really just the disadvantage on attack rolls that bothers me, since D&D is so combat-focused.

Personally, I'd feel that disadvantages on ability checks would be pretty significant, and at least personally, it'd make me inclinced to play a drow that tries to stick to the shadows, that it enhanced the "otherness". Or any other sort of weakness that doesn't dictate which classes are playable for you. Maybe it's because I generally dislike trying to shoehorn races into classes. I already dislike racial ability scores for this reason (since they're really generalisations). This whole thing with the drow is just another such thing.

[EvilAnagram]

From a mechanical point of view, it is absolutely crippling regardless. Assuming an even shot to hit (50%), disadvantage turns that into 25%. First of all, only succeeding 25% of the time just isn't fun, and seeing those good rolls getting negated is psychologically draining.
Which is why you intentionally don't put yourself in a position in which you have to deal with constant disadvantage using many options that have been suggested.


Using the Help action doesn't actually fix that at all- rather, you are using an action, probably someone else's who doesn't have disadvantage, to turn your roll into a regular to-hit roll.
The Help action is to get you through skill checks, not attacks. Why would you attack in the direct sunlight?


Even if you had circumstances where it doesn't cost you *anything* to provide advantage (highly unlikely unless you're using variant rules or the 9th level spell Foresight), you're still moving to a 50% to hit chance, rather than the 75% chance you would have with advantage.
True. It is a disadvantage, after all.


You are *always* crippled, and the best you can hope for is evening that out, you can never gain advantage, ever. That doesn't seem very "negated" to me.
Only in direct sunlight. Which is why you avoid direct sunlight.


So if you have decided to allow a character to play a drow, I don't think it should be a "trap" choice where just based on the majority of party members faring best under the sun, your party often travels and adventures during the day and sleeps at night, and you end up being terribad as a result.
It's not a trap. Just don't attack in direct sunlight. Bards and Sorcerers take perfect advantage of the Drow's abilities without losing anything so long as the cast save spells in direct sunlight. Rogues, Fighters, and Paladins should probably consider how they can mitigate the disadvantage or try not to fight outdoors during the day. If your party isn't taking into consideration your needs, they're being jerks to your character. No one is at disadvantage any time they fight at night.

I agree with you about being able to choose Drow, though.

[ZenBear]

It wouldn't work with the 5e Drow.

The target is in direct sunlight, doesn't matter if you have glasses or not lol.

Mother of God(s)... What a great campaign idea though. Drow want to invade the surface so they set up a Mr Burns contraption for blocking out the sun (partially, need the sun to sustain life). But using magic and stuff...

You could have the tower fall as the players are fighting on it or it could be falling from orbit while the players try to fight an enemy and trying to steer it away from a city...

You need to read the latest Drizzt books. The Drow do something along those lines that I really shouldn't spoil too much.

[ThermalSlapShot]

You need to read the latest Drizzt books. The Drow do something along those lines that I really shouldn't spoil too much.

Reading about it would be boring, playing it is what makes it appeal to me.

Most fantasy books are quite boring, rehashing the same things/consepts/stories over and over without any interesting variation (Fantastic Four looks like it will be something like this). When I was rehabing my injury I decided to reteach myself calc 2 instead of reading the fantasy books my friends left me.

[Mjolnirbear]

This reminds me... It's totally unfair that halflings get disadvantage with heavy weapons! And it's ALL THE TIME unlike drow who get half the day and dungeons and buildings and cloudy weather with no penalty. If a Small character has the same strength as a medium-sized one, he should be able to weild the same weapons!

This Small characters predjudice Totally gimps the fighters with mediocre feat choices and damage dice.

Unless of course you work within the rules. I did. Made a dexadin. Very fun to play. Can dish out loads of damage when i need him to. He's a little acrobat. He is limited on damage and his athletics rolls suck but who cares if he's fun?

USE THE RULES man. Stay in the forests or the shadows of mountains. Fight at dusk and dawn. Stick to dungeons and buildings. Enjoy cloudy days. Cast save spells. Find ways to manufacture Advantage--keep sand in a pouch to throw in their eyes, throw a net on them, trip them, attack from hiding or while invisible. Use fog spells, or maybe other weather spells. If you can't attack or won't do other things suck as Helping, casting buffs, using Athletics rolls to shove or grapple. Lure the enemy towards the trees on the side of the road. Cast a Grease spell. Buy ball bearings or caltrops. Go on a quest to find or make Dust of Shadows. You don't actually need to attack to win a fight!

[JellyPooga]

From a more campaign dependent point of view, what's wrong with wanting to play something because it's cool?

It's one thing to play something cool, but another to intentionally shoe-horn a character into a game (whether setting or style) in which that character simply doesn't fit.

To use your Fire Genasi example; sure, you're welcome to play that character because it's cool, but if you're playing in a game that has a focus on socialite balls and upper-class hob-nobbing in a society that abhors non-humans, then your character, though cool, has no place being in that game. If you want to go ahead and play that character anyway, then you have no ground to complain that your character is ineffective or persecuted because you knew full well before the game started what the stakes were and that the character you've chosen to play is so clearly unsuited for that game.

Yes, we're all here to play and have fun, but that statement doesn't exist in a vacuum. The fun we have in roleplaying games is dependent on a great many things, one of the foremost being playing a character appropriate to the setting and the style of the game in question. It would be fruitless and probably unsatisfactory to play a Human in a typical all-Drow game (to turn the tables);

- Game starts.
- Human character gets shoved in jail, tortured and/or enslaved and takes no further part.
- Everyone else goes and plays the game whilst you roll up a new (Drow) character.

I'm not saying that a Human in an all-Drow game can't work, but it would require special circumstances that the GM and other players might not be happy with, thus imposing on their fun of the game because you decided that you wanted to play a "cool" character that didn't fit in that game.

So, to the example in question; playing a Drow in an above-ground, predominantly outside, daylight game could very well stretch the suspension of disbelief for everyone else involved; your character has a lot of explaining to do just to justify his presence, let alone anything else. You might think it's cool, but if you're going to force the issue, then you're also going to have to suck up the consequences of doing so, not complain about the disadvantages you're suffering until everyone else falls in line and changes the game to suit your character.

[ThermalSlapShot]

This reminds me... It's totally unfair that halflings get disadvantage with heavy weapons! And it's ALL THE TIME unlike drow who get half the day and dungeons and buildings and cloudy weather with no penalty. If a Small character has the same strength as a medium-sized one, he should be able to weild the same weapons!

This Small characters predjudice Totally gimps the fighters with mediocre feat choices and damage dice.

Unless of course you work within the rules. I did. Made a dexadin. Very fun to play. Can dish out loads of damage when i need him to. He's a little acrobat. He is limited on damage and his athletics rolls suck but who cares if he's fun?

USE THE RULES man. Stay in the forests or the shadows of mountains. Fight at dusk and dawn. Stick to dungeons and buildings. Enjoy cloudy days. Cast save spells. Find ways to manufacture Advantage--keep sand in a pouch to throw in their eyes, throw a net on them, trip them, attack from hiding or while invisible. Use fog spells, or maybe other weather spells. If you can't attack or won't do other things suck as Helping, casting buffs, using Athletics rolls to shove or grapple. Lure the enemy towards the trees on the side of the road. Cast a Grease spell. Buy ball bearings or caltrops. Go on a quest to find or make Dust of Shadows. You don't actually need to attack to win a fight!


One would think a halfling with 20 Str would be just as strong and able as a human with 20 Str.

Not like humans using huge weapons is a common fantasy trope or anything.

[Slarg]

One would think a halfling with 20 Str would be just as strong and able as a human with 20 Str.

Not like humans using huge weapons is a common fantasy trope or anything.

I dunno, it's still totally mechanically different for someone who is 5-6 feet using a 4 foot weapon than someone who is 3-4 feet using a 4 foot weapon.

[Yagyujubei]

TL;DR the whole lot of these posts so this may or may not have been said, but "sunlight sensitivity" or rather that result of it aren't actually caused by light vs. dark.

Drow have infrared vision, and thus see things through their heat signatures. Because of this, being on the surface where there is FAR more ambient heat due to the light and radiation from the sun makes it much harder for them to discern the heat signatures of people/things.

the other way to look at this lore wise is that their sensitivity to sunlight is not a symptom of their lives underground, but a cause. Corellion cursed the the war loving "evil" elves to be banished from the surface and thus the Drow came to be, so it's actually a divine curse that causes their discomfort above ground.

if you wan't to just deal with it quickly and set lore aside though then making a magic items that deal with the problem, or having a feat available that does is fine if you ask me. but from a lore standpoint it's a much more complicated problem than "just wear sunglasses" because that would do nothing.

[ThermalSlapShot]

I dunno, it's still totally mechanically different for someone who is 5-6 feet using a 4 foot weapon than someone who is 3-4 feet using a 4 foot weapon.

Good thing we don't play a simulation game.

I'm all for verisimilitude, until it starts to give us fiddly rules that causes people to not have as much fun as they could.

Plus the fact that it won't hurt balance at all. It isn't like halfling are getting an AC or Hit bonus on top of their ability scores anymore.

[Shining Wrath]

One would think a halfling with 20 Str would be just as strong and able as a human with 20 Str.

Not like humans using huge weapons is a common fantasy trope or anything.

Actually, he wouldn't. If Strength is the ability to exert force, the human still has twice as long an arm, and there's a reason why a lot of weapons can be described as a stick with a heavy thing out on the end. If we're going to allow physics into our D&D, no halfling or gnome should be even remotely as good a fighter as a human or elf of equal strength.

[rhouck]

One would think a halfling with 20 Str would be just as strong and able as a human with 20 Str.

It seems like they should be since the rules re "Size and Strength" only penalize Tiny creatures with respect to what they can carry/push/pull/drag/lift... and only boost Large or larger creatures. So I agree that the ban against heavy weapons seems incongruous and unnecessary. They already suffer a movement penalty for being Small, no reason to add on more IMO.

[ThermalSlapShot]

Actually, he wouldn't. If Strength is the ability to exert force, the human still has twice as long an arm, and there's a reason why a lot of weapons can be described as a stick with a heavy thing out on the end. If we're going to allow physics into our D&D, no halfling or gnome should be even remotely as good a fighter as a human or elf of equal strength.

You are adding simulation into a fantasy game where that simulation only add fiddly rules that keep players from having fun.

If they aren't as good... Then where is their penalty to attack rolls, penalty to damage rolls, penalty to AC, or penalty to their ability scores?

Why only heavy weapons if they can't be as good as humans? There is no consistency with your logic.

Also, what rhouck said.

[VoxRationis]

"Oh, my character has a single situational disadvantage as well as their laundry list of abilities and bonuses! Woe is me!"

[ThermalSlapShot]

"Oh, my character has a single situational disadvantage as well as their laundry list of abilities and bonuses! Woe is me!"

When it prevents people from having fun, for no other reason than adding fiddly simulation rules to a game, at its core, was created to streamline and get rid of fiddly rules...

It isn't "woe is me", it is " woe is us".

Hold wotc to some sort of standard instead of taking everything they throw at you with closed eyes.

Which one is more important? Bringing in simulation for the sake of simulation in a non-simulation game... Or allowing players to have fun and not need to ask the DM for any special favors?

I don't care how you want to play your character, want to have disadvantage with heavy weapons even though you have 20 Str? Be my guest. But I would love to play a Gnome Barbarian and not be punished for playing a specific type of character.

But hey, lets all play the exact same type of characters or the next 40 years, maybe by then people will want to branch out and play something different for once.

[VoxRationis]

When it prevents people from having fun, for no other reason than adding fiddly simulation rules to a game, at its core, was created to streamline and get rid of fiddly rules...

It isn't "woe is me", it is " woe is us".

Hold wotc to some sort of standard instead of taking everything they throw at you with closed eyes.

Yeah, I bet you aren't as keen to reject rules as written when they hand you something brokenly powerful.


Which one is more important? Bringing in simulation for the sake of simulation in a non-simulation game... Or allowing players to have fun and not need to ask the DM for any special favors?

I don't care how you want to play your character, want to have disadvantage with heavy weapons even though you have 20 Str? Be my guest. But I would love to play a Gnome Barbarian and not be punished for playing a specific type of character.

Sometimes character styles make no sense and shouldn't be allowed. The system also doesn't support a character based solely on throwing marionettes at people; is that also a problem for you? Is "fun" for you solely dependent on you being able to get whatever you want at all times?



But hey, lets all play the exact same type of characters or the next 40 years, maybe by then people will want to branch out and play something different for once.

You mean play overwrought anti-archetypal snowflakes crying for attention? Characters who barely make sense individually, and assembled in a 4-6-strong party, completely strain credulity? Characters who need gimmicky races and classes drawn from a hodgepodge of obscure sourcebooks to appear creative, rather than just good roleplaying? There's a dozen classes, each with numerous possible variations on the minutiae of their execution. There's variety enough without demanding concessions from the camp of reasonable limitation.

[Dimcair]

Balance wise its fine isn't it?

Can any one argue that getting spells for some situational cost is not balanced in this case?

[rollingForInit]

This reminds me... It's totally unfair that halflings get disadvantage with heavy weapons! And it's ALL THE TIME unlike drow who get half the day and dungeons and buildings and cloudy weather with no penalty. If a Small character has the same strength as a medium-sized one, he should be able to weild the same weapons!


The difference being that haflings aren't discouraged from playing classes altogether, whereas drow are.


Balance wise its fine isn't it?

Can any one argue that getting spells for some situational cost is not balanced in this case?

Well, there's the thing about several other races getting spells without any situational cost.

[DracoKnight]

Balance wise its fine isn't it?

Can any one argue that getting spells for some situational cost is not balanced in this case?

No other race gets such a significant "situational cost." And it discourages martial classes and spellcasters that require an attack roll (Warlock). So basically you're playing a Bard or a Sorcerer if you want to optimize, and your proficiency in Perception means nothing if you have disadvantage on every roll for it.


Well, there's the thing about several other races getting spells without any situational cost.

And you know...this.^

Plus, the Svirfneblin don't get Sunlight Sensitivity, and they have all the same benefits as the Drow do as far as Superior Darkvision, and they also live in the Underdark. I don't see why WotC is spreading the love for the Deep Gnome, but not the Dark Elf. The only difference is that their innate spellcasting is a feat. But they get something that (I feel) is better than anything the Drow get in Gnome Cunning. The Drow get advantage against being charmed, yes, but Gnome Cunning gives you advantage on all mental saving throws against spells, and other magical effects.

[Dimcair]

Then lets have a look at the spells the other classes get and we compare?

[rollingForInit]

Then lets have a look at the spells the other classes get and we compare?

The drow gets Dancing Lights, Faerie Fire and Darkness.
Tieflings get Thaumaturgy, Hellish Rebuke and Darkness.
The DMG-suggested Aasimar gets Light, Daylight and Lesser Restoration.

Water Genasi gets Shape Water and Create Water.
Fire Genasi gets Produce Flame and Burning Hands.

[GiantOctopodes]

Then lets have a look at the spells the other classes get and we compare?

Certainly!

Drow:
You know the dancing lights cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the faerie fire spell once per day. When you reach 5th level, you can also cast the darkness spell once per day. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

Tiefling:
Infernal Legacy. You know the thaumaturgy cantrip. Once you reach 3rd level, you can cast the hellish rebuke spell once per day as a 2nd-level spell. Once you reach 5th level, you can also cast the darkness spell once per day. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

Fire Genasi:
Reach to the Blaze. You know the produce flame cantrip. Once you reach 3rd level, you can cast the burning hands spell once with this trait as a 1st-level spell, and you regain the ability to cast it this way when you finish a long rest. Constitution is your spellcasting ability for these spells

Water Genasi:
Call to the Wave. You know the shape water cantrip (see chapter 2). When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the create or destroy water spell as a 2nd-level spell once with this trait, and you regain the ability to cast it this way when you finish a long rest. Constitution is your spellcasting ability for these spells

I really don't think it's the spells that are meant to justify it. It's the laundry list. Drow get Advantage on Perception checks and saving throws against being charmed, they are immune to sleep, they get 120' darkvision, proficiency in rapiers, short swords and hand crossbows, *and* spells.

Meanwhile, tieflings get darkvision, resistance to fire, and spells.

[Dimcair]

Agreed, the spells alone do not justify the light sensitivity.

(keeping in mind that its situational, it is still subject to the decisions of the DM, making it something one has little control over)

[DracoKnight]

I really don't think it's the spells that are meant to justify it. It's the laundry list. Drow get Advantage on Perception checks and saving throws against being charmed, they are immune to sleep, they get 120' darkvision, proficiency in rapiers, short swords and hand crossbows, *and* spells.

What PHB are you reading? Where on earth does it say that they get advantage on Perception checks?

And if the spell aren't what puts them over into getting Sunlight Sensitivity, if it truly is the laundry list, then why don't the other elves have a drawback?

And to the "laundry list" that they get, let's look at that, shall we?

ASI: DEX +2, CHA +1
Speed: 30ft.
Superior Darkvision: 120ft.
Keen Senses: Proficiency in Perception (not advantage)
Fey Ancestry: Advantage against charm, can't be put to sleep magically.
Trance: 4 hours of "sleep" whenever you take an 8 hour long rest.
Drow Magic: Dancing Lights (thematic, but worse than Light), Faerie Fire (okay, so opponents - that you can see - can't stealth), and Darkness (for a magical darkness that you still get disadvantage in).
Drow Weapon Training: rapiers, shortswords, and hand crossbows.

With Sunlight Sensitivity, their proficiency in Perception is useless. Fey Ancestry isn't affected. Trance is an RP feature, albeit a nice one. Drow Magic, doesn't help anything. With Drow Weapon Training, the disadvantage Sunlight Sensitivity imposes makes it so you'll never pick these weapons up. And if you're playing a Martial, Drow Weapon Training is irrelevant, but Drow are discouraged from being Martial. So why would a spellcaster EVER pick up a rapier that they have disadvantage with, if they could simply cast Magic Missile, or Fireball?

The disadvantage of Sunlight Sensitivity cancels out everything else that the Drow get as a race.

[JellyPooga]

The disadvantage of Sunlight Sensitivity cancels out everything else that the Drow get as a race.

...when they're in the sun. Only when they or their target is in direct sunlight. I still can't help but think that people are blowing this so-called "massive" disadvantage way out of proportion. It's a situational modifier. The Drow suffer no penalty at all outside of direct sunlight and those circumstances are, as I've mentioned before, pretty common. Fighting in a wooded glade or down a dark alley, even at midday, is likely sufficient to avoid this penalty.

About the only time I can see this coming up regularly as an actual disadvantage is if you're playing in a desert, plains or other open-terrain themed wilderness campaign (and even then, I'd anticipate a lot of the actual action to be indoors or underground...when your campaign is set in a featureless wasteland, the interesting stuff happens near the, well, few features that are there). If you're playing such a game, I'll reiterate; you really have to ask yourself what your Drow character, of a race that are infamous for their night-time and subterranean activities, is doing walking around in broad daylight, above ground, with nary a piece of shade to be seen? He's out of his element.

You don't get Dwarf players complaining that their character gets disadvantage when fighting underwater, because Dwarves aren't aquatic. You don't get Halflings crying "foul" for lack of maneuverability on the Elemental Plane of Air because Halflings don't have a Fly speed.

A Drow above ground in direct sunlight is in one of the most inhospitable places to his people that is readily accessible. Humans tell grim tales about the Underdark; the dangerous monsters, the lack of food, the pitfalls and the pitch pitch dark. Down in the Underdark, their Drow counterparts spin stories over their fine wine about the surface world, where you can't see for toffee and practically every sentient creature will either run away in abject terror or try to run you through, not to mention all the beastly, hairy creatures that lurk in the dark places where you can actually see. The surface world is a dangerous place for the Drow; that's why they typically only go up there in raiding bands, at night and return to the safety of the Underdark come dawn.

[DracoKnight]

ask yourself what your Drow ... is doing walking around in broad daylight, above ground, with nary a piece of shade to be seen? He's out of his element.

Yes, he is. So would a half-orc in any kind of social situation, and yet, the half-orc doesn't get any mechanical disadvantage.


You don't get Dwarf players complaining that their character gets disadvantage when fighting underwater, because Dwarves aren't aquatic. You don't get Halflings crying "foul" for lack of maneuverability on the Elemental Plane of Air because Halflings don't have a Fly speed.

Not every campaign is going to require a dwarf to swim, or a halfling to fly, but in every campaign - except those that take place in the Underdark - the Drow will encounter sunlight. You're not drawing fair comparisons.

[rollingForInit]

You don't get Dwarf players complaining that their character gets disadvantage when fighting underwater, because Dwarves aren't aquatic. You don't get Halflings crying "foul" for lack of maneuverability on the Elemental Plane of Air because Halflings don't have a Fly speed.


Those aren't disadvantages compared to most other races. Or rather, almost all races share them. The aarakocra fan fly, and the water genasi can swim. There, it's an advantage that very few races get.



A Drow above ground in direct sunlight is in one of the most inhospitable places to his people that is readily accessible. Humans tell grim tales about the Underdark; the dangerous monsters, the lack of food, the pitfalls and the pitch pitch dark. Down in the Underdark, their Drow counterparts spin stories over their fine wine about the surface world, where you can't see for toffee and practically every sentient creature will either run away in abject terror or try to run you through, not to mention all the beastly, hairy creatures that lurk in the dark places where you can actually see. The surface world is a dangerous place for the Drow; that's why they typically only go up there in raiding bands, at night and return to the safety of the Underdark come dawn.

The difference being that although many surfaces tell grim tales about the Underdark, they aren't really inconvenienced by it mechanically. Most races have darkvision (whether that is good is really another issue), and for those who don't, there are many ways to get around darkness, from torches to spells of darkvision, RAW magical items, class features, and simple cantrips (which could be attained via feats, if not from a class). Things would be more comparable if drow got a cantrip called Shade that made an area of 20 feet around them appear as if shaded from direct sunlight.

The drow per RAW would work wonderfully for an Underdark campaign where trips to the surface are rare, and you want to really emphasise how different the surface is, or if you're only doing dungeon crawls where sunlight doesn't matter. The drow doesn't work as well if you're doing campaigns that often take place outside during the day. It could work well if you have a DM that's very generous with cloudy skies and don't have any encounters planned in direct sunlight without shadows present. But the, there isn't really any point to the drawback anyway, if it's only going to make itself known on very rare occasions. So, it'd be better to have a racial disadvantage that less debilitating, that could be in effect more often but wouldn't make the character unplayable during encounters.

[JellyPooga]

Yes, he is. So would a half-orc in any kind of social situation, and yet, the half-orc doesn't get any mechanical disadvantage.

A half-orc in a social situation is not the same; social situations are broad and non-specific. A half-orc talking to another half-orc or a half-orc sympathiser will likely not have any penalty. There is no rule that could cover such a thing, because there would be way too many caveats and exceptions.


Not every campaign is going to require a dwarf to swim, or a halfling to fly, but in every campaign - except those that take place in the Underdark - the Drow will encounter sunlight. You're not drawing fair comparisons.

I disagree; as I've already mentioned, there are minimal circumstances in which a Drow will actually be penalised by sunlight sensitivity, outside of very specific campaign types and in those specific campaigns, you have to ask the question of why the Drow is operating under those circumstances. A Dwarf at sea will probably have a very good reason why he's there and whether he gets dumped in the water by misfortune or intent, he's still going to have to suck up the penalty for fighting underwater.

The same goes for the Drow; if he's chosen, or been forced, into a circumstance in which he will be acting under a penalty, then he's just going to have to deal with it. You don't complain when a character fights with disadvantage when he's knee-deep in mud, or underwater but a Drow out of his element is different? Why? Just because you want to play your "cool" Drow character without any penalties? You're going to have to do better than mere desire to change something that is a core concept of that race.

Suggestions have already been made for Drow-made spells that might negate the penalty, or magic items that mitigate it, just as the Halfling on the EPoA might buy a Flying Carpet or a Dwarf in the sea might cast Alter Self for aquatic adaption, but you're trying to say that any Dwarf adventuring at sea should be able to change their racial traits to include the ability to fight without penalty underwater, because he's spent lots of time at sea. Dwarves aren't sea-creatures any more than Drow are able to operate effectively in direct sunlight.

[rollingForInit]

You're going to have to do better than mere desire to change something that is a core concept of that race.

This keeps getting repeated. What is the source for this statement? How is permanent, non-removable "disadvantage on attack rolls in direct sunlight" a core concept of the race? According to what?

In 4e, they had no mechanical disadvantage to sunlight at all.

In the 3.5 SRD, they had a different disadvantage: "Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area."
Source: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Drow

That has three distinct differences from the current disadvantage. One is that after the first round, the dazzled condition imposed a -1 penalty - that is much less sever than disadvantage. Second, it reads "abrupt", which is very ambiguous and implies that if the drow is used to it (e.g. walking around outside all day long), the penalty wouldn't apply (but if the curtains in a room are torn down to let in sunlight, they would be). But even if it applies, the disadvantage is much less severe. Also, there was a feat called "Daylight Adaptation" that basically cancelled the "Light Blindness" racial feature. Decent investment in older editions, but there's no such feat in 5e, even if you'd want it.

So I don't see how the current state of the drow is a "core concept" of the drow race, when it is more severe now than in previous editions.

[JellyPooga]

So I don't see how the current state of the drow is a "core concept" of the drow race, when it is more severe now than in previous editions.

The Light Blindness of 3ed Drow was less severe, yes, but the concept is the same; penalties in direct sunlight. 5ed doesn't have the myriad status effects of 3ed, only a truncated list by comparison, none of which are applicable under the circumstances. The closest thing 5ed has to the static penalty Light Blindness imposes is Disadvantage. As you say, the wording of LB in 3ed is somewhat ambiguous and open to interpretation. I'm pretty sure there's little to no ambiguity over 5ed's Sunlight Sensitivity, so perhaps the intention was always to be closer to the harsher interpretation that 5ed espouses and not the gentler one you've assumed from 3ed (I'm not saying this is the case, only that it might be). I'm not all that familiar with 4ed, so will refrain from passing comment on anything from that edition.

5ed also doesn't have the hundreds of Feats that 3ed had (yet) and a Feat to negate the Sunlight Sensitivity of the Drow is a little specific for the Core book. Perhaps we'll see something similar in an expansion, but there are no Race-specific feats in the PHB; why should the Drow be an exception? Same goes for spells and magic items; just because Drow specific things don't currently exist in the RAW, doesn't preclude them from ever existing and to include them in the core rules would be making an exception for the Drow.

As for the roleplaying/fluff aspect of Drow being averse to sunlight; it is absolutely a core concept of the race. They're cursed by their creator to shun the sunlight, banished to the Underdark for their transgressions. They are, by the definition of their race, a people that cannot exist comfortably above ground in the daylight. If that's not a core concept, I don't know what is.

[rollingForInit]

The Light Blindness of 3ed Drow was less severe, yes, but the concept is the same; penalties in direct sunlight. 5ed doesn't have the myriad status effects of 3ed, only a truncated list by comparison, none of which are applicable under the circumstances. The closest thing 5ed has to the static penalty Light Blindness imposes is Disadvantage. As you say, the wording of LB in 3ed is somewhat ambiguous and open to interpretation. I'm pretty sure there's little to no ambiguity over 5ed's Sunlight Sensitivity, so perhaps the intention was always to be closer to the harsher interpretation that 5ed espouses and not the gentler one you've assumed from 3ed (I'm not saying this is the case, only that it might be). I'm not all that familiar with 4ed, so will refrain from passing comment on anything from that edition.

5ed also doesn't have the hundreds of Feats that 3ed had (yet) and a Feat to negate the Sunlight Sensitivity of the Drow is a little specific for the Core book. Perhaps we'll see something similar in an expansion, but there are no Race-specific feats in the PHB; why should the Drow be an exception? Same goes for spells and magic items; just because Drow specific things don't currently exist in the RAW, doesn't preclude them from ever existing and to include them in the core rules would be making an exception for the Drow.

As for the roleplaying/fluff aspect of Drow being averse to sunlight; it is absolutely a core concept of the race. They're cursed by their creator to shun the sunlight, banished to the Underdark for their transgressions. They are, by the definition of their race, a people that cannot exist comfortably above ground in the daylight. If that's not a core concept, I don't know what is.

I listed quite a few other ways that you could handle sunlight sensitivity a few pages back, without having it be a devastating disadvantage in combat. So there are a lot of ways it could be done aside from the way it's done now. And those that I listed was just things I made up on the spot. If none of those were good, it just takes a little imagination to come up with others.

As to racial feats: no other races have racial feats, why should the svirfneblin have one? There's no reason they couldn't have had one in the PHB, since the drow is in the PHB as a core race.

[rollingForInit]

Oh, I realised one way to get around it with feats. At least a little bit. Take the Lucky feat. Turns sunlight into a super advantage. So that's good for a round or two of combat, depending on how many attacks per turn you get.

[Shining Wrath]

On the topic of whether or not some sort of sunlight sensitivity is thematically appropriate: yes, Drow have been cursed by Corellon Larethian, they live in the Underdark as a result of that curse, they worship an evil Spider Queen who loves darkness, and in editions other than 4th they had some sort of penalty for bright light, plus lots of stories and novels about it.

As to whether or not the 5e Drow subrace is balanced compared to other races: this is a fair discussion, and it is somewhat campaign specific. If the campaign features lots of dungeon crawls underground, the Drow is a very strong subrace, as the 120' darkvision more than compensates for the sunlight sensitivity and the racial spells of the Drow will be useful. If the campaign takes place on the great desert Anvil of the Sun, where spotting approaching marauders as far away as possible is a key survival skill, Drow are crippled. In this latter case, a kind DM might work with the player to provide some sort of work around; several have been discussed herein.

So, if you want to play a Drow, talk to your DM first. Like the PHB suggests.

[VoxRationis]

The difference being that although many surfaces tell grim tales about the Underdark, they aren't really inconvenienced by it mechanically. Most races have darkvision (whether that is good is really another issue), and for those who don't, there are many ways to get around darkness, from torches to spells of darkvision, RAW magical items, class features, and simple cantrips (which could be attained via feats, if not from a class). Things would be more comparable if drow got a cantrip called Shade that made an area of 20 feet around them appear as if shaded from direct sunlight.


It's not quite a mechanical disadvantage, but being brightly lit while trudging through a hostile area shrouded in darkness is a pretty substantial tactical disadvantage. I'd argue that effectively having a giant "Shoot me" sign on you, beckoning to enemies you still can't see, is around equal to disadvantage on attacks.

[mephnick]

This major drawback to a core race seems unnecessarily punishing to anyone that wants to play that race.

There's your problem. It never should have been a core race. The PhB even says they only put it in the game for Drizz't fanboys. It's an evil race and should be limited to the Monster Manual, or should have been an alternate race example in the DMG.

Don't get me started on tieflings!

[DanyBallon]

The drow per RAW would work wonderfully for an Underdark campaign where trips to the surface are rare, and you want to really emphasise how different the surface is, or if you're only doing dungeon crawls where sunlight doesn't matter. The drow doesn't work as well if you're doing campaigns that often take place outside during the day. It could work well if you have a DM that's very generous with cloudy skies and don't have any encounters planned in direct sunlight without shadows present. But the, there isn't really any point to the drawback anyway, if it's only going to make itself known on very rare occasions. So, it'd be better to have a racial disadvantage that less debilitating, that could be in effect more often but wouldn't make the character unplayable during encounters.

See the problem is that you try to have a race that is not fit to live under the sun, to adventure daily on the surface. Would you argue the same about a race of fish folk, having disadvantage when on the ground? Drow are not meant to walk the surface as human, elves, dwarves, etc. When they do so, it's under the cover of the night. Now if you want to make a drow character a la Drizzt, then talk with your DM about it, and how you can make it work, but don't blame the game for putting restriction that make sense and that bring good roleplay/tactics opportunities for wanting to play a race oustide of its intend limits.

[DracoKnight]

There's your problem. It never should have been a core race. The PhB even says they only put it in the game for Drizz't fanboys. It's an evil race and should be limited to the Monster Manual, or should have been an alternate race example in the DMG.

Don't get me started on tieflings!

Tieflings.

[mephnick]

This is where I'd rant but I already have 2 infractions so I won't.

Everything is awesome :smallmad:

[rollingForInit]

See the problem is that you try to have a race that is not fit to live under the sun, to adventure daily on the surface. Would you argue the same about a race of fish folk, having disadvantage when on the ground? Drow are not meant to walk the surface as human, elves, dwarves, etc. When they do so, it's under the cover of the night. Now if you want to make a drow character a la Drizzt, then talk with your DM about it, and how you can make it work, but don't blame the game for putting restriction that make sense and that bring good roleplay/tactics opportunities for wanting to play a race oustide of its intend limits.

And yet, the renegade drow that's rejected drow society to live on the surface is a pretty famous archetype. If the drow is not intended to be played in typical campaigns, it shouldn't have been in the PHB. If it hadn't been in the PHB, if it had instead been introduced in some future supplement, people wouldn't have had as much of an issue with it, I think.

And as for intended limits ... that's exactly what we're discussing: what the limits should be. It seems most people agree that sunlight sensitivity, thematically, is a good thing. The disagreement is on whether drow should be limited to DC-based spellcasters on the surface, and not really be fighters or any kind.

But woe to us for questioning the PHB. I mean, that never happens on these forums. Never. I hope I never see you questioning the PHB, because if it says something, obviously it is holy and must not be questioned. Whatever the devs wrote must surely be 100% right.

[DracoKnight]

This is where I'd rant but I already have 2 infractions so I won't.

Everything is awesome :smallmad:

If you want to PM me said rant, I'd be more than interested to read what you have to say. I, personally, have no issue with Tieflings, but I like hearing other points of view on the matter :D

[Shining Wrath]

And yet, the renegade drow that's rejected drow society to live on the surface is a pretty famous archetype. If the drow is not intended to be played in typical campaigns, it shouldn't have been in the PHB. If it hadn't been in the PHB, if it had instead been introduced in some future supplement, people wouldn't have had as much of an issue with it, I think.

And as for intended limits ... that's exactly what we're discussing: what the limits should be. It seems most people agree that sunlight sensitivity, thematically, is a good thing. The disagreement is on whether drow should be limited to DC-based spellcasters on the surface, and not really be fighters or any kind.

But woe to us for questioning the PHB. I mean, that never happens on these forums. Never. I hope I never see you questioning the PHB, because if it says something, obviously it is holy and must not be questioned. Whatever the devs wrote must surely be 100% right.

When the PHB says "DM approval required", it does mean this race is not like the others. If you want to say the Drow have balance problems - well, they aren't the only race that people say that about; you may well be right. And that's why you talk to your DM about what sort of campaign he or she has planned, because the sunlight sensitivity is more or less of a handicap depending on what you do.

[DanyBallon]

And yet, the renegade drow that's rejected drow society to live on the surface is a pretty famous archetype. If the drow is not intended to be played in typical campaigns, it shouldn't have been in the PHB. If it hadn't been in the PHB, if it had instead been introduced in some future supplement, people wouldn't have had as much of an issue with it, I think.

And as for intended limits ... that's exactly what we're discussing: what the limits should be. It seems most people agree that sunlight sensitivity, thematically, is a good thing. The disagreement is on whether drow should be limited to DC-based spellcasters on the surface, and not really be fighters or any kind.

But woe to us for questioning the PHB. I mean, that never happens on these forums. Never. I hope I never see you questioning the PHB, because if it says something, obviously it is holy and must not be questioned. Whatever the devs wrote must surely be 100% right.

Drizzt is the "rejected drow that live on the surface" a single character is far from being a common archetype. Also, the use of Drow is up to de DM, and that's by RAW. Finally ther's is a nice sidebar that explain, that if not for Drizzt, there wouldn't be drow character at all in the PHB. It's not not writtin balck on white, but they point out that drows are evil, and the one exception is Drizzt.

Now, you may question the PHB, you don't like drow light sensivity, just houserule it and that's it, but for sake, stop complaining that the developper did something silly/bad, when all they did is put a simple disadvantage than can be easily avoid by seeking cover from the sun or adventuring at night. And they only did put the drow in the PHB (again under the specific that you need your DM approval to play one) this for all the fanboys that want to be Drizzt clone.

[RedMage125]

People complaining about the disadvantages of the drow race should look at how that disadvantage really stacks with their advantages, and compare to other races.

Despite what the PHB says about 3 kinds of light, there are really 4 categories of light in D&D.

Direct Sunlight
Bright Light
Dim Light
Darkness

How's a drow do in those 4?
Direct Sunlight: Disadvantage on Perception checks and attack rolls.
Bright Light: No penalties
Dim Light: No penalties
Darkness: Disadvantage on Perception checks and attack rolls.

So drow get no penalties in 2 conditions, and disadvantage in 2. Now let's look at a human in those 4 conditions.

Direct Sunlight: No penalties
Bright Light: No penalties
Dim Light: Disadvantage on Perception checks and attack rolls.
Darkness: Auto-fail Perception checks, Disadvantage on attacks, attackers get advantage against him.

No penalty in 2 conditions, disadvantage in 1, and completely blind in 1.

Obviously, the very best thing would be to have a race with Darkvision without Sunlight Sensitivity (no penalty in 3, disadvantage in 1). But in terms of benefits and penalties associated with light, being a drow is still better than being a non-darkvision race.

[GiantOctopodes]

People complaining about the disadvantages of the drow race should look at how that disadvantage really stacks with their advantages, and compare to other races.

Despite what the PHB says about 3 kinds of light, there are really 4 categories of light in D&D.

Direct Sunlight
Bright Light
Dim Light
Darkness

How's a drow do in those 4?
Direct Sunlight: Disadvantage on Perception checks and attack rolls.
Bright Light: No penalties
Dim Light: No penalties
Darkness: Disadvantage on Perception checks and attack rolls.

So drow get no penalties in 2 conditions, and disadvantage in 2. Now let's look at a human in those 4 conditions.

Direct Sunlight: No penalties
Bright Light: No penalties
Dim Light: Disadvantage on Perception checks and attack rolls.
Darkness: Auto-fail Perception checks, Disadvantage on attacks, attackers get advantage against him.

No penalty in 2 conditions, disadvantage in 1, and completely blind in 1.

Obviously, the very best thing would be to have a race with Darkvision without Sunlight Sensitivity (no penalty in 3, disadvantage in 1). But in terms of benefits and penalties associated with light, being a drow is still better than being a non-darkvision race.

They don't have disadvantage on attack rolls in darkness, nor do humans have disadvantage in dim light. Only perception checks. A race with darkvision has no penalties in 3, and disadvantage on perception checks (and only perception checks) in 1, which means any race with darkvision that's not the drow has superior vision capabilities. Hardly 'superior' darkvision at all. I will also point out that a human in darkness suffers disadvantage on attack rolls (and their attacker has advantage against them) IF and ONLY IF the human is fighting someone with darkvision. Otherwise the advantage they gain from being an invisible attacker cancels out the disadvantage for being blinded, and the attacker's advantage against them is similarly canceled out by the disadvantage gained by being blinded. A drow, however, *always* suffers disadvantage in direct sunlight, regardless of his opponent (even if it's another drow).

So overall, the Drow get auto disadvantage in one, and poor perception in two. The humans get poor perception in one, auto fail perception in one, and may or may not suffer combat penalties, depending on the opponent. Should they be facing one of the situations where they do suffer disadvantage, a Human Druid, Ranger, Sorcerer, or Wizard can cast a spell to negate their disadvantage (darkvision) assuming they don't have mundane means of negating it (such as a torch). A Warlock can get Devil's Sight and negate it, a Rogue eventually negates it, a Cleric or Paladin can use a cantrip (light) to negate it, a shadow monk can grant themselves darkvision and negate it, as can an Eldritch Knight. It should be noted as well that darkvision applies to a target, and needn't be self, lasts for 8 hours, and does not require concentration.

So if the human in question exists in a vacuum, wherein he does not have a Druid, Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard, Shadow Monk or Eldritch Knight in the party to grant them darkvision, and it is for some reason incredibly important that light not be generated, and he is a Barbarian or certain subclasses of Monk or Fighter, sure, I'll grant you that. However, it seems far more likely to me that after level 3 the Human in question has all the means in the world to negate it, and before then just needs to carry a torch, the mundane means of defeating their disadvantage. Meanwhile a drow has no mundane means of defeating their disadvantage, nor do they have a magical one, and their only option is to avoid attack rolls or avoid the environment entirely. I am not *at all* convinced a human is worse off than a drow when it comes to vision.

Technically too there's a 5th kind of light, which is to say magical darkness, but all non-warlocks operate the same in those conditions.

[Elbeyon]

It's a lot easier to light a lamp than to control the sun.

[GiantOctopodes]

It's a lot easier to light a lamp then to control the sun.

Meanwhile too the most common suggestions is that the party should be understanding of your needs, and rarely to never adventure under the light of the sun, despite the fact that all of them perform optimally in those conditions and only you are holding them back. Since, you know, that's so much less of a special snowflake syndrome than a mundane item, a feat, a spell, or a magic item existing to negate your vision based disadvantages. Meanwhile, class features, mundane items, spells, *and* magic items exist to negate the vision based disadvantages of humans and halflings.

[DracoKnight]

Meanwhile too the most common suggestions is that the party should be understanding of your needs, and rarely to never adventure under the light of the sun, despite the fact that all of them perform optimally in those conditions and only you are holding them back. Since, you know, that's so much less of a special snowflake syndrome than a mundane item, a feat, a spell, or a magic item existing to negate your vision based disadvantages. Meanwhile, class features, mundane items, spells, *and* magic items exist to negate the vision based disadvantages of humans and halflings.

This is wonderful. I appreciate sarcasm almost more than anything else in the world.

And yes, I agree. Asking the party to only operate at night is even more self-centered than saying: "Hey, DM, can I get a minor magic item that does this?" All of the other races get things that allow them to do this...do the Drow? No. And as far as creating a character for the campaign setting, yes, this is wise, however if a DM says everything is allowed - or just that everything in the PHB is allowed, then you make a Drow and you're still screwed by the sun.

[Shining Wrath]

This is wonderful. I appreciate sarcasm almost more than anything else in the world.

And yes, I agree. Asking the party to only operate at night is even more self-centered than saying: "Hey, DM, can I get a minor magic item that does this?" All of the other races get things that allow them to do this...do the Drow? No. And as far as creating a character for the campaign setting, yes, this is wise, however if a DM says everything is allowed - or just that everything in the PHB is allowed, then you make a Drow and you're still screwed by the sun.

If there can be a Darkvision spell, there can be a Drow counterpart for sunlight sensitivity of the same level and duration.

[DanyBallon]

Meanwhile too the most common suggestions is that the party should be understanding of your needs, and rarely to never adventure under the light of the sun, despite the fact that all of them perform optimally in those conditions and only you are holding them back. Since, you know, that's so much less of a special snowflake syndrome than a mundane item, a feat, a spell, or a magic item existing to negate your vision based disadvantages. Meanwhile, class features, mundane items, spells, *and* magic items exist to negate the vision based disadvantages of humans and halflings.

The party need to accommodate your needs, because you choose to play a race that don't fit with theirs and you don't want to be penalized for doing so! If your party is built around adventuring in the open field during the day, then you should consider something else than playing a drow, the same as if the campaign is set in the underdark, and choose to play a human that don't trust magic in all it's form, it can be a cool concept, but it's counter productive. If you absolutely want to play one, discuss with the others players if they would accommodate you, by either adventuring at night or exploring dungeons or deep forests, or you can ask your DM for a magic item, or a houserule, so that you can adventure in daylight without penalty.

[VoxRationis]

I will also point out that a human in darkness suffers disadvantage on attack rolls (and their attacker has advantage against them) IF and ONLY IF the human is fighting someone with darkvision. Otherwise the advantage they gain from being an invisible attacker cancels out the disadvantage for being blinded, and the attacker's advantage against them is similarly canceled out by the disadvantage gained by being blinded. A drow, however, *always* suffers disadvantage in direct sunlight, regardless of his opponent (even if it's another drow).

IFF here is technically correct, but fails to take into account the probability of its condition being fulfilled. How often do you get into fights that are in darkness where neither side has darkvision or another similar sense? Because if you argue that adventuring at night or in dungeons is a niche case, this is a niche smaller than that of a single-host parasite.

[GiantOctopodes]

IFF here is technically correct, but fails to take into account the probability of its condition being fulfilled. How often do you get into fights that are in darkness where neither side has darkvision or another similar sense? Because if you argue that adventuring at night or in dungeons is a niche case, this is a niche smaller than that of a single-host parasite.

My point was only that no matter how small the probability of the condition being fulfilled, it is non-zero, whereas the probability of a drow's disadvantage not applying in the daylight is zero.

[Whyrocknodie]

Be nocturnal.

[VoxRationis]

My point was only that no matter how small the probability of the condition being fulfilled, it is non-zero, whereas the probability of a drow's disadvantage not applying in the daylight is zero.

Yes, but if the exception only applies 1-2% of the time, it's kind of silly to base ideas about balance or fairness off its possibility, especially when the result of that exception is that no one has advantage or disadvantage.

[GiantOctopodes]

Yes, but if the exception only applies 1-2% of the time, it's kind of silly to base ideas about balance or fairness off its possibility, especially when the result of that exception is that no one has advantage or disadvantage.

Not having advantage or disadvantage is also what happens when under bright light, or daytime, or darkness with the ability to properly deal with it. As in, it's the normal state of things. So I hardly think that the disadvantage not being present is a silly point to bring up when discussing balance or fairness.

Speaking of probabilities and exceptions, what do you think the probability is that a human or halfling does not have a torch, or it can't be used (such as being underwater), AND has no party members able and willing to cast darkvision, light (a cantrip), continual flame, or any other such spells, AND they do not have a class feature which mitigates it AND lack the appropriate magic item AND is facing a creature which does have darkvision in combat? I mean, if we're talking about a niche situation here, let's be real about how large the whole subset is that we're picking apart. Honestly I'd say that the chances of all of those conditions applying is pretty slim, wouldn't you?

Conversely, what do you think the chances are that the sun is up and the party is outdoors? Greater than the chance of all of the conditions above being true?

[VoxRationis]

Speaking of probabilities and exceptions, what do you think the probability is that a human or halfling does not have a torch, or it can't be used (such as being underwater), AND has no party members able and willing to cast darkvision, light (a cantrip), continual flame, or any other such spells, AND they do not have a class feature which mitigates it AND lack the appropriate magic item AND is facing a creature which does have darkvision in combat?

It's unlikely, but only because many of those conditions are the result of active effort by party members to avoid fighting in darkness—the same way a drow player character should try to avoid fighting in sunlight. Otherwise, the situation isn't that far-fetched, particularly given that Variant Human is a favorite on this forum and that one would expect drow, goblins, and kobolds to actively look for ways to ambush people under cover of darkness.

[GiantOctopodes]

It's unlikely, but only because many of those conditions are the result of active effort by party members to avoid fighting in darkness—the same way a drow player character should try to avoid fighting in sunlight. Otherwise, the situation isn't that far-fetched, particularly given that Variant Human is a favorite on this forum and that one would expect drow, goblins, and kobolds to actively look for ways to ambush people under cover of darkness.

But that's exactly the point- they're not. They ways for them to deal with fighting in darkness, to allow the party to still be in an environment of darkness without the human or halfling being disadvantaged. Something that does not exist for drow. None of those, note, are "avoid being in darkness in the first place", which is what you recommend the drow do.

[eleazzaar]

How would I deal with a race ballance with a crippling disadvantage that is only sometimes in effect?

I would brew a Half-Drow (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m7qG9BDQEH1pIykhmUb88f1--ghHvJZlV5QBJUtzTR4/edit#heading=h.70nqa7dgmqcm) race with a less crippling version of sunlight sensitivity.

[Yagyujubei]

How would I deal with a race ballance with a crippling disadvantage that is only sometimes in effect?

I would brew a Half-Drow (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m7qG9BDQEH1pIykhmUb88f1--ghHvJZlV5QBJUtzTR4/edit#heading=h.70nqa7dgmqcm) race with a less crippling version of sunlight sensitivity.

it's not that crippling guys jesus...think about it, how often will you really be fighting in total direct sunlight?

forest? yur good, indoors? yur good, dungeons? early morning? evening? night? good. cities will likely have enough shade to manage it as will mountainous areas, really the only time you would be in trouble would be in a high seas campaign or when you're in the middle of a fricken field.

at least in my play experience, I would say about 15-20% of the time would this actually affect gameplay. And as some people have mentioned, drow easily have the best over all racial bonuses (imho)

I guess your DM could really screw you over and specifically place the game in those types of areas, but that would be a jerk move for sure

[DanyBallon]

it's not that crippling guys jesus...think about it, how often will you really be fighting in total direct sunlight?

forest? yur good, indoors? yur good, dungeons? early morning? evening? night? good. cities will likely have enough shade to manage it as will mountainous areas, really the only time you would be in trouble would be in a high seas campaign or when you're in the middle of a fricken field.

at least in my play experience, I would say about 15-20% of the time would this actually affect gameplay. And as some people have mentioned, drow easily have the best over all racial bonuses (imho)

I guess your DM could really screw you over and specifically place the game in those types of areas, but that would be a jerk move for sure

... or the player would be a jerk as well, if before hand the DM let the players know that the campaign will take place mostly in sunlight area, and still the player decide to play a drow...

But I agree, the disadvantage is not that crippling. There's plenty of way to work around sunlight sensitivity.

I believe some people would just like to have all the bonus and no penalties at all.

[GiantOctopodes]

... or the player would be a jerk as well, if before hand the DM let the players know that the campaign will take place mostly in sunlight area, and still the player decide to play a drow...

But I agree, the disadvantage is not that crippling. There's plenty of way to work around sunlight sensitivity.

I believe some people would just like to have all the bonus and no penalties at all.

That is, generally speaking, how D&D 5e works. Note that Drow are the ONLY race that exists with any kind of penalty associated with them. Arguably being small comes with some penalties (and some strengths), but that's like saying humans are "penalized" because they don't have darkvision, an ability nearly all other races have. The only race which has active drawbacks associated with it are the Drow, and there is no mechanical means provided by the game to overcome or circumvent those drawbacks other than "don't go out in the sun".

You can't have it both ways. Either it's not that big of a deal to not go out in the sun, and thus the disadvantage is not that crippling (and thus they do indeed have all the bonus and no penalties at all), or the penalty is an intentional one designed to somehow "balance" the "bonus", in which case it *should* be a big deal trying to work around sunlight, since otherwise it doesn't affect balance at all! So which is it? Is it important from a mechanical and balance perspective for them to have that penalty, or is it not that big of a deal? If it's important from a mechanical and balance perspective to have that penalty, how do you justify that since they can indeed only adventure at night or underground, thus avoiding it entirely? If it's not that big a deal, why is it so important that they (and only they) continue to have no way to ever negate the only racial penalty in the game, especially one based on vision limitations, when innumerable ways exist to overcome those same limitations for other races?

[AbyssStalker]

5th edition has rather pointedly expressed it's disdain for disadvantages to justify advantages, or rather disadvantages in the first place. For example you do not see races with negatives to stats anymore, I think that the Drow having disadvantage on sunlight is a contradiction to this formula, but that is just my two pence.

That being said, I would understand if a DM wanted to rule outright in favor of sunlight sensitivity or nay, I personally accept the penalty to playing a drow (RP FTW), and enjoy playing my evil drow Dik'k with disadvantage most of the time, I do however think that (as previous posters have suggested) there should be a spell or item that can negate this. (I personally think it would be a good place to put a ritual to counteract it).

[Thisguy_]

...there should be a spell or item that can negate this.

Correlon's Blessing

A pendant bearing the mark of Corellon upon it, it burns the flesh of the unworthy. Dark Elves who are not attuned with the pendant have disadvantage on all ability checks, saving throws, and attack rolls while within 15' of it. Requires attunement to benefit from its positive effect, and can only be attuned to by a Good-aligned Dark Elf.

Attunement takes one hour. While attuned, the holder suffers none of the drawbacks of the pendant, and does not suffer from Sunlight Sensitivity even when in bright light. Other Drow are still affected by the item, and will naturally become hostile to its bearer. Once attuned, the wearer cannot willfully remove the pendant.

[DracoKnight]

I believe some people would just like to have all the bonus and no penalties at all.

First, I would say that this is a generalization, because I personally have no issue with races getting disadvantages. They have in pervious editions. But the way that the rest of the system is balanced - non of the other races get a huge combat-related disadvantage. Sure small races can't use heavy weapons without disadvantage, but if you're playing a small race, it's generally more of a Dex build. This is ALL martial weapons, including the ones you get through racial proficiency. I wouldn't have that big a problem with Sunlight Sensitivity, if their racial weapons were exempt.

[1Forge]

But that's exactly the point- they're not. They ways for them to deal with fighting in darkness, to allow the party to still be in an environment of darkness without the human or halfling being disadvantaged. Something that does not exist for drow. None of those, note, are "avoid being in darkness in the first place", which is what you recommend the drow do.

Guys this isnt crippling, its disadvantage... You could wear "sunglasses", you could cast a spell to give advantage (thus cancelling it out), its really not that hard to play as long as your carefull. It really isnt that bad. You can find ways to "deal" with the amount of light. humans use fire, drow could use spells or other special tools. Plus they get insane darkvision to compensate.

[1Forge]

First, I would say that this is a generalization, because I personally have no issue with races getting disadvantages. They have in pervious editions. But the way that the rest of the system is balanced - non of the other races get a huge combat-related disadvantage. Sure small races can't use heavy weapons without disadvantage, but if you're playing a small race, it's generally more of a Dex build. This is ALL martial weapons, including the ones you get through racial proficiency. I wouldn't have that big a problem with Sunlight Sensitivity, if their racial weapons were exempt.

Seriously just achive advantage by flanking, or through support spells. Plus my halfling paladin resents your statement that halflings are usually dex builds thats a player choice.

Edit: Also always talk to your DM, express your concerns often compromises can be made just by talking to your DM. You might find an item to help you (you could find drizzits parasol or something) or maybe the encounters will be in the dark more often you never know.

[GiantOctopodes]

Seriously just achive advantage by flanking, or through support spells. Plus my halfling paladin resents your statement that halflings are usually dex builds thats a player choice.

Edit: Also always talk to your DM, express your concerns often compromises can be made just by talking to your DM. You might find an item to help you (you could find drizzits parasol or something) or maybe the encounters will be in the dark more often you never know.

Flanking does not provide advantage unless you're using variant rules. What support spells do you propose using to consistently gain advantage, other than the 9th level spell foresight?


Guys this isnt crippling, its disadvantage... You could wear "sunglasses", you could cast a spell to give advantage (thus cancelling it out), its really not that hard to play as long as your carefull. It really isnt that bad. You can find ways to "deal" with the amount of light. humans use fire, drow could use spells or other special tools. Plus they get insane darkvision to compensate.

That's exactly the issue people (myself included) are raising. There are no spells or other special tools. There is no way to "deal" with the amount of light present anywhere in the game system. You either just suck it up or avoid it, there is no cleverness, no tactical considerations, nothing interesting occurring at all, it simply is, with nothing you can possibly do about it other than not go outside in the first place during the day.

[Elbeyon]

You could wear "sunglasses".That doesn't work. Both the drow and the target have to be in the dark for the disadvantage to disappear. The drow could be surrounded in darkness, but if the target is outside of that darkness the drow gets disadvantage.

[DanyBallon]

First, I would say that this is a generalization, because I personally have no issue with races getting disadvantages. They have in pervious editions. But the way that the rest of the system is balanced - non of the other races get a huge combat-related disadvantage. Sure small races can't use heavy weapons without disadvantage, but if you're playing a small race, it's generally more of a Dex build. This is ALL martial weapons, including the ones you get through racial proficiency. I wouldn't have that big a problem with Sunlight Sensitivity, if their racial weapons were exempt.

Human can't see in the dark, so they need to carry a torch, which mean either no shield, no two weapon fighting or no two-hand weapon, or they need to have acces to a spell or a magic item. Drow can do just the same, they might not be any spells or magical item to cancel sunligth sensitivity, but nothing prevents your DM to create one for you. Asking your DM before playing a drow is also talking with him how to integrate your character in the game and trying to resolve issue like this.

[Mjolnirbear]

Dear gods. Dude, what, exactly, are you trying to accomplish here?

You asked our opinions. We gave it. You said we were wrong. We offered suggestions on how to get around sunlight sensitivity; you said it wasn't good enough. We suggested possibly ask the DM. You said it was beside the point. We offered ideas on magical items or spells or quests, and you flat out ignored it. We offered the possibility that perhaps the disadvantage is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. But like a mighty diva clutching her pearls, you insist it is exactly as you say and no amount of debate, logic, or arguing will sway you.

Odin's mighty bollocks! What the hell do you want?? The pages in the PHB to magically re-print themselves so there is no disadvantage? You know that won't happen. You want people to agree with you? No. You've had your chance, and most of us said no in every way. You want us to agree that it's wrong and we should tell your DM to accommodate your whims? Bam. I wave my mighty hand and now you can tell your DM that some stranger on the internet said he should listen to you, for you will surely make his life hell if he doesn't.

This reminds me of nothing so much as a child sticking her fingers in her ears shouting "LALALALALALALALAIDON'THEARYOU" except with a better vocabulary. The best that can be said is that there is a dearth of insults. It is pointless to speak to someone who won't listen.

[GiantOctopodes]

If there can be a Darkvision spell, there can be a Drow counterpart for sunlight sensitivity of the same level and duration.

Agreed! It should be easy to adapt, too.

Lightvision
2nd-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (either a pinch of dried onion or an onyx)
Duration: 8 hours
You touch a willing creature to grant protection from the harmful effects of direct sunlight. For the duration, that creature treats direct sunlight as if it were a brightly lit area (and does not incur the normal penalties associated with direct sunlight, if any) within a radius of 60 feet.

Goggles of Day
Wondrous item, uncommon
While wearing these shaded lenses, you treat direct sunlight as if it were a brightly lit area (and do not incur the normal penalties associated with direct sunlight, if any) within a radius of 60 feet.

Seems balanced enough to me, it keeps the same sort of range limitations as the equivalents would for darkvision so they'd still have disadvantage on targets outside 60'.

[1Forge]

Flanking does not provide advantage unless you're using variant rules. What support spells do you propose using to consistently gain advantage, other than the 9th level spell foresight?



That's exactly the issue people (myself included) are raising. There are no spells or other special tools. There is no way to "deal" with the amount of light present anywhere in the game system. You either just suck it up or avoid it, there is no cleverness, no tactical considerations, nothing interesting occurring at all, it simply is, with nothing you can possibly do about it other than not go outside in the first place during the day.

Well you could cast faerie fire. But even then if your argument is that theres no clever way around this and its boring/uninteresting think of torches to solve humans vision limitations. (whoo hoo its a stick much clever very interesting)

it can be clever or interesting or not it depends on the DM and the player, also be creative it says that thameturgy can darken the skies, so use it to darken them, its a cantrip and so it works, i dont even think it needs concentration.

[1Forge]

That doesn't work. Both the drow and the target have to be in the dark for the disadvantage to disappear. The drow could be surrounded in darkness, but if the target is outside of that darkness the drow gets disadvantage.

That is a terrible argument, to you everything you see is in shade, because their light passes through your shades... honestly you have to think of what each rule represents in real life, and what its supposed to simulate.

[Elbeyon]

That is a terrible argument, to you everything you see is in shade, because their light passes through your shades... honestly you have to think of what each rule represents in real life, and what its supposed to simulate.I suggested sunglasses too =/. The mechanics are not on my side though (and, it'd take a house rule to change that). Drow vision is running on dnd's logic now. It might as well be "because magic". (Which a few posters have said that it is "because magic".)

[DracoKnight]

Dear gods. Dude, what, exactly, are you trying to accomplish here?

You asked our opinions. We gave it. You said we were wrong. We offered suggestions on how to get around sunlight sensitivity; you said it wasn't good enough. We suggested possibly ask the DM. You said it was beside the point. We offered ideas on magical items or spells or quests, and you flat out ignored it. We offered the possibility that perhaps the disadvantage is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. But like a mighty diva clutching her pearls, you insist it is exactly as you say and no amount of debate, logic, or arguing will sway you.

Odin's mighty bollocks! What the hell do you want?? The pages in the PHB to magically re-print themselves so there is no disadvantage? You know that won't happen. You want people to agree with you? No. You've had your chance, and most of us said no in every way. You want us to agree that it's wrong and we should tell your DM to accommodate your whims? Bam. I wave my mighty hand and now you can tell your DM that some stranger on the internet said he should listen to you, for you will surely make his life hell if he doesn't.

This reminds me of nothing so much as a child sticking her fingers in her ears shouting "LALALALALALALALAIDON'THEARYOU" except with a better vocabulary. The best that can be said is that there is a dearth of insults. It is pointless to speak to someone who won't listen.

To whom is this addressed? I'm asking so that no one gets needlessly defensive.

[The Shadowdove]

To whom is this addressed? I'm asking so that no one gets needlessly defensive.

I don't think it's me?

I'm the op lol.

All of my responses have been thanking people for their contributions to the thread, or replying to a couple of posts with intrigue.


Personally, I don't dislike sunlight sensitivity as a racial.


I just was curious as to how people found ways in game to negate it.

The ROLEPLAY AND MECHANICAL aspects amuse me.

I, for one, would not mind roleplaying the sensitivity; given the DM gives me some way down the road to have me search for a way to counteract it to conclude with either success (in manufacturer or magical item) or utter failure (ex: no, it's a curse and you finally realize no magical means of cure is possible after your investments and attempts at using various items).




feel free to continue discussing/debating. I see much reason in everyone's perspective. It's different for every table though, and I doubt anyone's game is crippled by such a simple decision/integration/declination of alteration.

I'm glad my thread has drawn so many interesting opinions to be shared.

-dove

[1Forge]

well if your melee based you could mount a parasol on your back, then the one enemy you are fighting at a time would be in shade. It's kinda silly but it could work, also there are some spells that could help.

thameturgy to darken the skies cantrip and up to 1 minuit
Create water level 1 use it to make a raincloud
faerie fire (gives advantage but not shade)
Silent image lvl 1 make an illusion to distort the light (up for debate)
Fog cloud level 1 makes a fog cloud
darkness level 2 (though you cant see in it, your enemys cant either)
Web level 2 (use it to make a web roof)

These are the only usefull low level spells i could find up to level 2 (some may or may not work ask your DM)

[The Shadowdove]

well if your melee based you could mount a parasol on your back, then the one enemy you are fighting at a time would be in shade. It's kinda silly but it could work, also there are some spells that could help.

thameturgy to darken the skies cantrip and up to 1 minuit
Create water level 1 use it to make a raincloud
faerie fire (gives advantage but not shade)
Silent image lvl 1 make an illusion to distort the light (up for debate)
Fog cloud level 1 makes a fog cloud
darkness level 2 (though you cant see in it, your enemys cant either)
Web level 2 (use it to make a web roof)

These are the only usefull low level spells i could find up to level 2 (some may or may not work ask your DM)

Awesome list with some creativity points

[DracoKnight]

thameturgy to darken the skies cantrip and up to 1 minuit

I think that this is my favorite. Mostly because I love Thaumaturgy.

Go Drow (Martial Class). At level 4 take Magic Initiate Cleric. Grab Thaumaturgy. Sunlight Sensitivity will suck those first four levels, but if you also pick up Spare the Dying, your party should be able to forgive you for that.

[GiantOctopodes]

I think that this is my favorite. Mostly because I love Thaumaturgy.

Go Drow (Martial Class). At level 4 take Magic Initiate Cleric. Grab Thaumaturgy. Sunlight Sensitivity will suck those first four levels, but if you also pick up Spare the Dying, your party should be able to forgive you for that.

My favorite too. Sadly by RAW it does not work, since Thaumaturgy does not have darkening the skies as one of its effects. Don't get me wrong, as a DM I'd allow it for sure, it's clever and fun. But as great as Thaumaturgy is (and it's one of the best and only ways to silently and simultaneously wake the party, so great for watch duty), it says "You create one of the following magical effects within range", and darkening the skies is not one of the effects that follows.

Edit: I also think that Fog Cloud should allow you to make an area lightly obscured instead of forcing it to be heavily obscured. I mean, after all, you're producing a weaker effect than intended by making less thick of fog. That would negate the direct sunlight bit while not forcing blindness, and the Wood Elves in the party would love it too!

[DracoKnight]

My favorite too. Sadly by RAW it does not work, since Thaumaturgy does not have darkening the skies as one of its effects. Don't get me wrong, as a DM I'd allow it for sure, it's clever and fun. But as great as Thaumaturgy is (and it's one of the best and only ways to silently and simultaneously wake the party, so great for watch duty), it says "You create one of the following magical effects within range", and darkening the skies is not one of the effects that follows.

What cantrip is it then? I thought that there was one.

Eh, I look at the Thaumaturgy and Prestidigitation effects more as "guide lines" than actual rules. I leave any other effects (non combat) up to the creativity of my players, and I would certainly allow a Drow player to use it to darken the sky.

[GiantOctopodes]

What cantrip is it then? I thought that there was one.

Eh, I look at the Thaumaturgy and Prestidigitation effects more as "guide lines" than actual rules. I leave any other effects (non combat) up to the creativity of my players, and I would certainly allow a Drow player to use it to darken the sky.

Agreed 100%. I only mention it because there is such a wide range of DM styles. Just in our own group one DM will let just about anything fly for magic users (say "I set him on fire" and there is no question of how, it just happens, or any other effect you want, really), while another questions the exact mechanism behind *everything* (we had to explain to him exactly how we would use mending to help patch up our sails, since the tears are more than 1', and he would only allow it once we explained we would stitch a bit into the tear in the sails to create a tear of less than 1', mend it, then rinse and repeat).

In terms of which cantrip, I checked the most likely 3 (Druidcraft, Presdigitation, and Thaumaturgy) and couldn't find that particular effect, but I may have missed it. That's really the kind of thing I was looking for, so I was hopeful, but no luck.

My personal favorite from that list is probably actually Web. Thematically appropriate for followers of the spider queen, its explicit in that it's thick, and it has a wide enough area that using it to create a temporary roof in a forest, ruin, or city is not at all unlikely, with a decent duration. That one really does make it so that the only situation you'd be out of luck is in a plain or other totally open space. Shame about being 2nd level, non mobile, and requiring concentration, but it's certainly a heck of a lot better than nothing.

My second favorite has to be the Parasol concept, just for the imagery it evokes. I imagine something like the setup Space Marines have with the banners mounted on the back, but with an oversize umbrella on top instead. Not to mention, it's practical, since it'll keep you dry when it rains!

[VoxRationis]

My second favorite has to be the Parasol concept, just for the imagery it evokes. I imagine something like the setup Space Marines have with the banners mounted on the back, but with an oversize umbrella on top instead. Not to mention, it's practical, since it'll keep you dry when it rains!

I may be mistaken, but I've seen pictures of Aztec officer-analogues who wore those. Seems like it would be clumsy as all get out, and it wouldn't help for a ranged drow, but it's a solution.

[DracoKnight]

I may be mistaken, but I've seen pictures of Aztec officer-analogues who wore those. Seems like it would be clumsy as all get out, and it wouldn't help for a ranged drow, but it's a solution.

I'm pretty sure I've seen something like that too.

[Blacky the Blackball]

The simple answer is; you don't. Just suck it up. If you can't engineer the scenario to fight in the shade (underground, at night, etc.), then you should have the disadvantage. It's there for a reason, after all. "Solutions" like sunglasses are a cop-out for players that want to play something exotic, but don't want to hinder themselves. It'd be like expecting to be accepted in normal human society when you're playing a Goblin. It just ain't gonna happen, Bub.

If, as a GM, one of my players wanted to play a Drow, then I'd flat-out reject any attempt at outright negating any of their disadvantages, mechanical or RP-wise. They're free to attempt a partial mitigation; hooded cloaks disguising their features, or running away from fights in direct sunlight, for example, but anything more than that is right out, in my book.

That's what I did when one of my players wanted to play a drow.

When she realised I wasn't going to waive the Sunlight Sensitivity she decided to play a half-elf instead - saying that the elven parent had been drow and she had inherited the drow "look" (black skin, silver hair) from that parent.

Et voila, she got to play an exotic "drow" without having the mechanical penalties. She didn't have the mechanical bonuses either, but that didn't bother her because she was doing it for the social "I want to be an untrusted outsider" aspect rather than for those bonuses.

[1Forge]

My favorite too. Sadly by RAW it does not work, since Thaumaturgy does not have darkening the skies as one of its effects. Don't get me wrong, as a DM I'd allow it for sure, it's clever and fun. But as great as Thaumaturgy is (and it's one of the best and only ways to silently and simultaneously wake the party, so great for watch duty), it says "You create one of the following magical effects within range", and darkening the skies is not one of the effects that follows.

Edit: I also think that Fog Cloud should allow you to make an area lightly obscured instead of forcing it to be heavily obscured. I mean, after all, you're producing a weaker effect than intended by making less thick of fog. That would negate the direct sunlight bit while not forcing blindness, and the Wood Elves in the party would love it too!

Yeah sorry i didnt check thaumaturgy in detail, I homebrew alot of my campaigns and play with varient rules so i sometimes mix things up.

And for the fog cloud just place the cloud up 6 feet, then it's your partys personal cloud.

Also if your a 20th level wizard and hate the sun you could just use wish to make it an eternal eclipse though thats a long term goal in a game.

[1Forge]

Wait i just thought of something couldnt you take 1 level in wizard and learn Alter self? then just alter your eyes to be less sensitive? I'm away from my book so I'm not entirely sure.

[DracoKnight]

Wait i just thought of something couldnt you take 1 level in wizard and learn Alter self? then just alter your eyes to be less sensitive? I'm away from my book so I'm not entirely sure.

You'd need 3 levels in Wizard - it's a 2nd level spell.

[1Forge]

You'd need 3 levels in Wizard - it's a 2nd level spell.

oh okay i was mistaken then.

[Elbeyon]

That's what I did when one of my players wanted to play a drow.

When she realised I wasn't going to waive the Sunlight Sensitivity she decided to play a half-elf instead - saying that the elven parent had been drow and she had inherited the drow "look" (black skin, silver hair) from that parent.

Et voila, she got to play an exotic "drow" without having the mechanical penalties. She didn't have the mechanical bonuses either, but that didn't bother her because she was doing it for the social "I want to be an untrusted outsider" aspect rather than for those bonuses.Is that a good thing? You effectively said I will cripple your character if you play this race. And, the player's response was I'll play the concept, but with different mechanics. Congrats, Blacky the Blackball. You just homebrewed a drow without the weakness (using a different races mechanics).

[GiantOctopodes]

Is that a good thing? You effectively said I will cripple your character if you play this race. And, the player's response was I'll play the concept, but with different mechanics. Congrats, Blacky the Blackball. You just homebrewed a drow without the weakness (using a different races mechanics).

Exactly this. The player essentially said 'with sunlight vulnerability, the drow are not worth playing. Is there any way I can mitigate or overcome that weakness?' Your response apparently fell along the lines of 'No. Just suck it up. If you can't engineer the scenario to fight in the shade (underground, at night, etc.), then you should have the disadvantage. It's there for a reason, after all. You're free to run away from fights in direct sunlight, but anything more than that is right out'. (Note that I do not mean to misrepresent what you said, I simply pulled what I consider the relevant text from the quote you used when you said "that's what I did when one of my players wanted to play a drow")

The player then said "Well, that's unacceptable, again, such a character is not worth playing. How about this instead: I take the Drow, I bump their Cha bonus to +2, I trade the +2 Dex for 2 abilities getting a +1, I reduce their Darkvision to 60 feet, I trade their Drow weapon training and Perception proficiency for 2 skill proficiencies of my choice, I lose Trance, I gain an extra language, and I lose Drow Magic. In exchange, I drop sunlight sensitivity. Sound fair? And you said 'sure, sounds fair'.

Wouldn't dropping Drow Magic and / or reducing their Darkvision to 60' and dropping Sunlight Sensitivity in trade be just as valid?

[1Forge]

Whoah that didn't make it unplayable, and not waving a rule didn't mean there wasn't a way around it, honestly next thing you will all be griping that fiends take double damage from radient weapons, these are racial traits each one gets a buff to compensate for the weakness, also the half elf thing isn't homebrewing drows are elves and so should be able to create half drows, that doesn't change the rules in any way.

[GiantOctopodes]

Whoah that didn't make it unplayable, and not waving a rule didn't mean there wasn't a way around it, honestly next thing you will all be griping that fiends take double damage from radient weapons, these are racial traits each one gets a buff to compensate for the weakness, also the half elf thing isn't homebrewing drows are elves and so should be able to create half drows, that doesn't change the rules in any way.

Let me tackle this bit by bit, if I may:


Whoah that didn't make it unplayable,



When she realised I wasn't going to waive the Sunlight Sensitivity she decided to play a half-elf instead
To me, that's a pretty strong indication that she felt the drow was not worth playing with sunlight sensitivity.


and not waving a rule didn't mean there wasn't a way around it,


The simple answer is; you don't. Just suck it up. If you can't engineer the scenario to fight in the shade (underground, at night, etc.), then you should have the disadvantage. It's there for a reason, after all. "Solutions" like sunglasses are a cop-out for players that want to play something exotic, but don't want to hinder themselves. It'd be like expecting to be accepted in normal human society when you're playing a Goblin. It just ain't gonna happen, Bub.

If, as a GM, one of my players wanted to play a Drow, then I'd flat-out reject any attempt at outright negating any of their disadvantages, mechanical or RP-wise. They're free to attempt a partial mitigation; hooded cloaks disguising their features, or running away from fights in direct sunlight, for example, but anything more than that is right out, in my book.
Emphasis mine

That's what I did when one of my players wanted to play a drow.

So apparently, for Blacky the Blackball, he was of the mind that there should indeed not be a way around it.


also the half elf thing isn't homebrewing drows are elves and so should be able to create half drows, that doesn't change the rules in any way.



Et voila, she got to play an exotic "drow" without having the mechanical penalties. She didn't have the mechanical bonuses either, but that didn't bother her because she was doing it for the social "I want to be an untrusted outsider" aspect rather than for those bonuses.
So again, the player was playing an exotic "drow", but with different mechanics.


these are racial traits each one gets a buff to compensate for the weakness,


This part I 100% agree with. Thus my statement:


Wouldn't dropping Drow Magic and / or reducing their Darkvision to 60' and dropping Sunlight Sensitivity in trade be just as valid?
At no point do I indicate it's wrong for them to allow a half drow (which is again effectively a drow without sunlight sensitivity and modified mechanics per Blacky the Blackball's own description), I'm just saying that I also consider it valid to just modify the Drow template directly to achieve the desired results.

[1Forge]

But to fully customize a race just for you is dumb and doesn't make sense, that's like me saying " I feel my human is really wise so ill just give myself a +2 to wis and nothing else" you can't just do that and say your a special case, a home brew would be if it applied to all, so if all drow saw 60ft of dark ision and had no sunlight sensitivity then that's setting deal and is ok if dwarves in your setting were sailors then changing their stone ability and darkvision would make sense, but not for 1 individual if one dwarf became a sailor the years of dwarvish evolution would still affect him. Same with drow, in my game there are some drow that moved to the surface and after a few generations I might mitigate sunlight sensitivity, but not right off the bat there has to be a reason for stat changes.

Also with the bit about her not feeling she could play with the sensitivity does not make it unplayable, I cant stand some races (like gnomes and half Orcs) but that doesn't mean they're unplayable its all a matter of taste. Also sunglasses or parasols are not copouts they are as legitamite as humans putting on sunscreen or humans wielding torches for light in the dark, its all flavour and can really add to a story and or character.

[Blacky the Blackball]

Is that a good thing? You effectively said I will cripple your character if you play this race. And, the player's response was I'll play the concept, but with different mechanics. Congrats, Blacky the Blackball. You just homebrewed a drow without the weakness (using a different races mechanics).

I didn't threaten to "cripple" her character if she played a particular race, effectively or otherwise. She looked at the PHB and liked the drow but didn't like their weakness. She asked if there were sunglasses that would negate the penalty and I informed her that unfortunately there weren't; so she decided that she didn't fancy the idea of a character who wouldn't go out in the sun and she chose to play a different race instead. The subject of house ruling was never brought up.


Exactly this. The player essentially said 'with sunlight vulnerability, the drow are not worth playing. Is there any way I can mitigate or overcome that weakness?' Your response apparently fell along the lines of 'No. Just suck it up. If you can't engineer the scenario to fight in the shade (underground, at night, etc.), then you should have the disadvantage. It's there for a reason, after all. You're free to run away from fights in direct sunlight, but anything more than that is right out'. (Note that I do not mean to misrepresent what you said, I simply pulled what I consider the relevant text from the quote you used when you said "that's what I did when one of my players wanted to play a drow")

My players and I aren't that rude to each other. Our discussion was far more polite.


The player then said "Well, that's unacceptable, again, such a character is not worth playing. How about this instead: I take the Drow, I bump their Cha bonus to +2, I trade the +2 Dex for 2 abilities getting a +1, I reduce their Darkvision to 60 feet, I trade their Drow weapon training and Perception proficiency for 2 skill proficiencies of my choice, I lose Trance, I gain an extra language, and I lose Drow Magic. In exchange, I drop sunlight sensitivity. Sound fair? And you said 'sure, sounds fair'.

Again, no-one ever mentioned "not worth playing". She just (after some weighing it up) decided she'd rather be a different race instead. More importantly, there was no negotiation about exchanging abilities or anything. She asked if the elven half of a half elf could be from drow stock, and I said sure.

And she isn't playing a drow with different mechanics. She's playing the character as an actual half elf (having a human mother and a drow father).


Wouldn't dropping Drow Magic and / or reducing their Darkvision to 60' and dropping Sunlight Sensitivity in trade be just as valid?

As valid as what? I don't see any comparison between house-ruling a race because a player doesn't like some of its mechanics and the player simply choosing a different (but similar looking) race instead.

[DracoKnight]

As valid as what? I don't see any comparison between house-ruling a race because a player doesn't like some of its mechanics and the player simply choosing a different (but similar looking) race instead.

It did initially sound like she was playing a Drow using the Half-Elf mechanics. You have since clarified. :)

[Epoch]

It really is unfair that Drow are the only race that suffers a mechanical disadvantage.

It's almost as if they were cursed.

Oh wait. They're cursed. That would explain why you are mechanically at a disadvantage for playing one... neat!

Honestly, if we want to talk about crippling disadvantages, let's talk about how Drow are (on the surface world) reviled and feared wherever they go. If you are a Drow, you are hated. You are a monster. It doesn't matter how "different" you are, the folk who have had family members kidnapped and enslaved by your people really aren't going to care. The more educated nobility who have actually read about and studied your race? Yeah, they hate you more. Why? Because they know how your society functions: Through deceit, betrayal, and murder. They're not going to believe for a second that you're "not like the rest", they're not going to give you a chance, they will shun you from the second they see you.

I have no problems with my players wanting to be a Drow, but I do make it abundantly clear what they are in this world. The Drow are not nice. They are not good. They are awful awful people from an awful awful place. Are the exceptions? Of course! But that will never change the fact that everyone you meet who isn't a Drow will hate you. Which is why the PHB has the DM discretion caveat when choosing to play one, because if you do, you are enabling "hard mode" on yourself and your party ("what kind of a sick person associates with Drow??" said literally everyone) and you need to understand that before playing one.

In short: Your Drow character is inhabiting a superstitious and bigoted world that hates their guts and wishes that you all were dead. I would say that's a bit worse than fumbling in the sunlight.

[rollingForInit]

In short: Your Drow character is inhabiting a superstitious and bigoted world that hates their guts and wishes that you all were dead. I would say that's a bit worse than fumbling in the sunlight.

There's nothing fun about playing a mechanical disadvantage which renders your combat abilities worthless in some no uncommon situations.

On the other hand, there's a lot of fun to be role-played about a character that's hated and despised at first, someone who really has to work to gain people's trust, to prove himself to be good (if that is in fact what he is), etc. There's a lot of role-playing potential in hatred, suspicion, superstituion and prejudice. There's not really anything fun to role-play about with a sever mechanical disadvantage. Sunlight sensitivity in general would be fun to play; not this specific disadvantage.

[1Forge]

I dont see it as a disadvantage any more then I see humans lack of darkvision a disadvantage. It's a roleplaying opportunity and fun to play sometimes. I'm making a campaign where the sun is blotted out and in that setting humans will be considered the disadvantaged and drow will seem like the most sensable choice (exept that everyone hates them still, cant win them all)

plus it's only disadvantage, this game hands out advantage like candy so it shouldnt be too much of an issue.

[Epoch]

There's nothing fun about playing a mechanical disadvantage which renders your combat abilities worthless in some no uncommon situations.

That's the point.

It's not fun to be a Drow. It is awful. That is why Drow are such an angry, bitter, and hateful race. They are literally cursed. Being a Drow should be about as fun as getting your teeth pulled. They exist purely to be despised. Not only by normal people, but by their very creator, which is why he cursed them. If you are playing a Drow, you are playing someone who is being punished by the world. They don't live underground because they like it, they live underground because it is the only place they can function properly, and that is what the game mechanics represent. The fun in playing a drow in the surface world is overcoming these crappy crappy circumstances and despite everything somehow managing to scrape together an existence above ground. It is a huge challenge and really hard to pull off. That's the point.

[Thrudd]

That's the point.

It's not fun to be a Drow. It is awful. That is why Drow are such an angry, bitter, and hateful race. They are literally cursed. Being a Drow should be about as fun as getting your teeth pulled. They exist purely to be despised. Not only by normal people, but by their very creator, which is why he cursed them. If you are playing a Drow, you are playing someone who is being punished by the world. They don't live underground because they like it, they live underground because it is the only place they can function properly, and that is what the game mechanics represent. The fun in playing a drow in the surface world is overcoming these crappy crappy circumstances and despite everything somehow managing to scrape together an existence above ground. It is a huge challenge and really hard to pull off. That's the point.

Exactly. Drow is not just an elf with cool color pallet. They are evil, demon worshipping, underground dwelling sadists that are xenophobic, bitter and hateful of all surface dwellers, especially their uncursed cousins. They are not a race that generally lends themselves to cooperative adventuring in mixed company. If you insist on playing the special snowflake, you should absolutely deal with the drawbacks. If the whole party is Drow, then presumeably most of the game will take place in the underdark anyway.

[Elbeyon]

What if the drow was born on the surface and never even knew another drow.

[Thrudd]

What if the drow was born on the surface and never even knew another drow.

They wouldnt be evil and xenophobic, necessarily, but they also wouldnt have most of the racial abilities that they get from Drow society, and would still have the sun sensitivity, and the prejudice outside of the community they were raised in.
But if you want to talk about special snowflakes...this is a pretty good/bad one. Would be a pretty masochistic choice on part of the player, but some people are willing to deal with that in order to get their snowflake.

[Elbeyon]

Interesting. You'd change the racial abilities depending on where they grew up. What about dragonborn raised by drow?

[Thrudd]

Interesting. You'd change the racial abilities depending on where they grew up. What about dragonborn raised by drow?

They'd probably be slaves and treated as such, and learn to be hateful and selfish and cruel from their exposure to Drow society. I dont use dragonborn in my settings, but if they normally have any learned racial abilities they wouldnt have them. Maybe they would have developed skills to deal with darkness a bit, or have learned some type of skill applicable to surviving as a slave of cruel masters.
Of course they would still have breath weapon. Physical things dont change, only learned things.

Edit: of course this is hypothetical. I would not encourage or even allow players to mix and match racial abilities by claiming special orphaned snowflake status.

[1Forge]

You cant really change stats because of one generation of "special snowflakes" think of them more as leaves, over hundreds of generations (trees) some qualities of the leaves might change but not after one event or one exposure to a different environment.

So if those land drow built a colony then many generations later they might find the sun enjoyable, but its not going to change over night. Ex humans raised by fish still cant breath underwater.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Like others have said, I'd allow the player to drop drow magic and lose the sunlight sensitivity. Really, that's the primary balancing point of the race.

[rollingForInit]

That's the point.

It's not fun to be a Drow. It is awful. That is why Drow are such an angry, bitter, and hateful race. They are literally cursed. Being a Drow should be about as fun as getting your teeth pulled. They exist purely to be despised. Not only by normal people, but by their very creator, which is why he cursed them. If you are playing a Drow, you are playing someone who is being punished by the world. They don't live underground because they like it, they live underground because it is the only place they can function properly, and that is what the game mechanics represent. The fun in playing a drow in the surface world is overcoming these crappy crappy circumstances and despite everything somehow managing to scrape together an existence above ground. It is a huge challenge and really hard to pull off. That's the point.

Note that I said it should be fun to play a drow. If you really mean that the point is that it shouldn't be fun to play a drow, then why the hell is it in the PHB? There's no point in designing at race if the intent is that no one will want to play it because it isn't fun.

It should be fun to play a drow; but yes, it shouldn't be fun to be a drow. That I agree with.

But that point isn't really made by making them dull to play in a combat-oriented game. There are many disadvantages that would be much better if you wanted the players to always be aware of how different the drow are, and how disadvantaged they are at the surface. Mostly it'd be done by RP, but there are many other mechanical disadvantages that would be better. Hell, there are even mechanical ways to penalise players for social prejudice, such as increased costs (like how Shadowrun has increased costs for trolls, dwarves and orcs). Not saying that's the best, or even a good, way either, but it's one.

Not to mention that if the intent is to have all players of drow really feel how disadvantaged the drow is, this disadvantage sort of fails at that. As has been mentioned, if you play any class that doesn't rely on attack rolls, you're all good. Sure, disadvantage on some Perception rolls isn't the most fun, but there are RAW magical items, at least, that compensates for that. Incidentally, if you played something like a Drow Light Cleric that blasted people with Saving Throw spells, there'd be no combat issues at all, despite this being a very strange thematic class for a drow. But sunlight wouldn't really matter to you. Neither would it if you went as a Lore Bard. Or even a Wizard.

It's a crippling disadvantage for specific classes, while other classes would suffer almost nothing. That is not a good way to portray that drow in general don't belong on the surface.

[Epoch]

Note that I said it should be fun to play a drow. If you really mean that the point is that it shouldn't be fun to play a drow, then why the hell is it in the PHB? There's no point in designing at race if the intent is that no one will want to play it because it isn't fun.

Correction: Isn't fun for you. Just because it's not something you would find fun does not mean that no one will want to play it. There are a good deal of players who actually get a lot of fun out of playing a mechanically handicapped class (I being one of them). They like the challenge of being forced to pick and choose their battles and manipulate the environment to suit them. What is fun for you and what is fun for others are two different things, and that's okay!



It's a crippling disadvantage for specific classes, while other classes would suffer almost nothing. That is not a good way to portray that drow in general don't belong on the surface.
Again, that's the point. There is a reason that Drow on the surface are more inclined towards magic/deception/poison/stabbing you in your sleep/etc. It's because they are handicapped in such a way that those are their only options. They don't fight that way on a whim, they fight that way because it's the best way for them to fight in a sunlit environment, an environment that they are not meant to live in. A Drow is not going to go toe-to-toe with some surface dweller in the middle of a field. They are either going to stand back and blast them with magic, or wait until cover of night fall and slit their throat while they sleep. The mechanics as they are now written have made it so that you are (to a certain degree) forced to dictate the battle-field and manipulate your opponent into being right where you want them. You know, like a Drow.

[rollingForInit]

In general, I just think that forcing races to be played as certain classes or builds limits the fun of games. Not just in D&D, but in anything. It's alright if a class brings both unique strengths and weaknesses to any archetypical build that balance each other, but to have it limited it just ... meh. It just encourages stereotypical concepts.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Epoch]

That is perfectly fair, and I can absolutely respect that. We all have different ways of enjoying this nerd game.

[Thrudd]

In general, I just think that forcing races to be played as certain classes or builds limits the fun of games. Not just in D&D, but in anything. It's alright if a class brings both unique strengths and weaknesses to any archetypical build that balance each other, but to have it limited it just ... meh. It just encourages stereotypical concepts.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

The different races are stereotypes. That's the only way which we can understand them, because they aren't real. They only exist as stereotypes. To remove the stereotype which defines the races is to remove the point of having the different races. When all the races can be all things, they are reduced to being nothing more than a suite of abilities and a color/costume swap for your character. Restricting or encouraging races to fulfill certain roles solidifies their place in the setting as being different from humans and each other in some way. You can change the actual stereotypes for your own setting, but ideally there should be some kind of stereotype to differentiate each race.

[GiantOctopodes]

The different races are stereotypes. That's the only way which we can understand them, because they aren't real. They only exist as stereotypes. To remove the stereotype which defines the races is to remove the point of having the different races. When all the races can be all things, they are reduced to being nothing more than a suite of abilities and a color/costume swap for your character. Restricting or encouraging races to fulfill certain roles solidifies their place in the setting as being different from humans and each other in some way. You can change the actual stereotypes for your own setting, but ideally there should be some kind of stereotype to differentiate each race.

I respectfully disagree. I think that having every member of a race fulfill the stereotype of them makes for a less interesting world, and a less interesting game, as it doesn't make us reexamine our own stereotypes or views of different cultures and philosophies at all. I personally enjoy games wherein stereotypes definitely exist, but then just like reality there are those who break the mold, and dealing with a Dwarf and his love of nature and art and light, airy spaces, and how he is treated by those around him, the challenges he faces just because he's not like a dwarf is "supposed" to be is a lot easier for people to look at without feeling excessively uncomfortable, instead of dealing more directly with societal prejudice associated with those who fail to meet our definitions for them. It's also a lot richer and more complex of a world, then, having such characters instead of a neverending cast of ale swigging dirt loving scottish miners. But more importantly, it can help us grow as people, and I personally enjoy that.

That being said, stereotypes do exist for a reason, and if every dwarf breaks from the stereotype then the act of breaking from it becomes meaningless, since it shouldn't have existed in the first place. It can also be interesting to have stereotypes that are just flat out wrong (halflings are shifty sort who will steal anything they can see could be a complete falsehood in your game, perpetrated by their insular nature and nomadic ways, wherein people blame them for everything that goes missing due to that stereotype, self reinforcing the falsehood), and compare those with the races your players encounter that are flat out correct (they go to the Aarakocera thinking the tales of them snatching away unguarded infants are wild rumors and falsehoods only to find they engage in ritualistic sacrifice of infants and kidnap for that purpose regularly).

Sure, if you want 100% "stock" drow, dwarves, etc, to populate your worlds, more power to you, who am I to tell you how to play. But for me and mine, it's much more interesting to have our expectations challenged, to have to figure NPCs out based on who they are, not what their race is, and to feel part of a living, breathing unique world. And if anyone should violate expectations and break from stereotypes, it's definitely the PCs.

[JellyPooga]

I respectfully disagree

I'm going to weigh in with my own disagreement here. I understand where you're coming from; PC's are by their nature "outside the norm", but having said that, if you don't have different races displaying different racial stereotypes, then why are you playing that race at all? You play a Dwarf because you want to be tough and resistant to poison (aka: able to drink like a fish) and knowledgeable about stonework. If you want to be a Dwarf that likes nature and the open sky also, so be it, that's fine, but if you're not into the drinking and metallurgy and short beardyness, then why do you want to be a Dwarf? You may as well say "hey, I want to be a Halfling, except I want to be six feet tall". It just goes against the grain.

So, for the case in point; if you want to play a "good" Drow in the vein of Drizz't, great, more power to you. Don't expect, however, to be let off the racial traits of the Drow, just because you're a PC. Just as much as you can't say "hey, I want to be a smart, weedy Dwarf, can I change my +2 Con for +2 Int?", you can't say "hey, I want to play a Drow with white skin" or "I want to be a Drow without light sensitivity". It's just not within the remit of that race to represent such things as a racial trait.

You're more than welcome to build a character with non-racial traits to fit your concept; for example, Point-Buying a 15 in Intelligence for a "smart Dwarf", or taking a (hypothetical) Feat to "buy-off" your sunlight sensitivity as a Drow; that's the exception from the norm for your race. However, your Racial traits are what make you a member of that race. Dwarves have +2 Con. No arguments, no exceptions. The average Dwarf is tougher than the average Human. Equally, a weedy Dwarf is tougher than a weedy human.

If you want a completely open system, the likes of GURPS and Fate will gladly accommodate "out of the ordinary" builds, but if you're going to claim to be a member of a race, you'd better have a reason for it. If you're not tough, poison-resistant, stonecunning and short, then what dwarvish traits do you have and why are you claiming to be a Dwarf at all if you don't have those traits that are typical of Dwarves?

To use a comedic example; Captain Carrot, of the Discworld series considers himself a Dwarf. He's actually a human. What Dwarvish traits does he have? He hasn't got a beard, he isn't short (quite the opposite), he hasn't got a Dwarfs affinity for violence and mining...he's a human. A human with Dwarvish training and upbrining, sure, but still a human. Should we model Captain Carrot as a Dwarf in D&D? No. He's not a Dwarf. Should we model Cheery Littlebottem as a human because she doesn't share traditional Dwarvish attitudes towards feminism? No, she's still a Dwarf at the end of the day, no matter how different from the norm for her race she is.

Equally, if you've got a concept for a Drow character that differs from the norm of the Drow race, great, you let your flag fly as something different from the norm. But. You're still going to have to accept that being a member of a given race will have certain benefits and certain consequences. Dwarves aren't 6' tall and Drow struggle in direct sunlight; that's just a part of playing that race. If you don't want a certain aspect of that race, don't complain that you don't like it; you may as well complain that Halflings are short; it's just who they are as a race. If you want to change an aspect of a race, then you're going to have to accept some consequence of that change. It might be having to spend a Feat on it, or some other mechanical game consequence, or it might be a roleplaying consequence, such as no-one believing you're a Halfling when you're 6' tall.

In a completely Point-buy system like GURPS, you can build whatever character you want. Build a character with high Dex/Cha, superior Darkvision, proficiency with hand-crossbow and spell-like abilities, but no sunlight sensitivity. Great, you've got the Drow race you want. However, if the campaign setting you're playing in says that Drow should have sunlight sensitivity, then you're going to have to explain why you don't have it. In GURPS, this would be done by buying the "Unusual Background" Advantage; a kind of fudge factor to represent the fact that you're playing something that shouldn't actually exist in the setting. You aren't forced to play anything, but don't expect to go against the grain without incurring some kind of cost. It's not a game-balance issue, it's an identity one.

[1Forge]

Ladys ladys there are plenty of play styles to go around.

But seriously I think were veering off topic here, playstyles and player choices are up to the player, racial steriotypes and assumptions (like that halflings tend to be roguelike) is up to the DM. In my setting Halflings tend to be very honorable, but its all a matter of setting. the point is specific beats general and your DM is about as specific as it gets.