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whisperwind1
2015-07-14, 11:16 AM
Hi all, I initially posed this question in the 3.X/PF forum, but was helpfully informed that this is the more appropriate place to ask. So here it is:

Like it says in the header, what's the best way to run a campaign where the players are adolescents or tweens (to abuse a term)? I read up on the rules in Ultimate Campaign (Pathfinder) and they give an ok base, but they don't really explain how to convey the sort of tone and feel one would expect from an adventure with kids. I'm not terribly well versed in young adult fiction (although I have read Harry Potter, Eragon and watched the Narnia movies), so i'm not confident I can craft such a game.

I received some pretty great answers from the old thread (which you can find here, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427808-How-to-run-a-young-party&p=19532034#post19532034)

However I wanted some more advice. It basically boils down to young adventurers can't face the same threats as adults and expect to come out psychologically intact. Apparently the best way to run a kid campaign is to do it as a personal internal growth, spurred by external adversity. Its about getting young characters to face their inner flaws, and grow from the experience. That's all well and nice, but it was mentioned that it might get a little too PSA for the purposes of a fun, escapist RPG. Is there any other way to run this sort of campaign (and still keep the idea of it as an adventure with children as opposed to mini-adults)?

dream
2015-07-14, 11:26 AM
Hi all, I initially posed this question in the 3.X/PF forum, but was helpfully informed that this is the more appropriate place to ask. So here it is:

Like it says in the header, what's the best way to run a campaign where the players are adolescents or tweens (to abuse a term)? I read up on the rules in Ultimate Campaign (Pathfinder) and they give an ok base, but they don't really explain how to convey the sort of tone and feel one would expect from an adventure with kids. I'm not terribly well versed in young adult fiction (although I have read Harry Potter, Eragon and watched the Narnia movies), so i'm not confident I can craft such a game.

I received some pretty great answers from the old thread (which you can find here, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427808-How-to-run-a-young-party&p=19532034#post19532034)

However I wanted some more advice. It basically boils down to young adventurers can't face the same threats as adults and expect to come out psychologically intact. Apparently the best way to run a kid campaign is to do it as a personal internal growth, spurred by external adversity. Its about getting young characters to face their inner flaws, and grow from the experience. That's all well and nice, but it was mentioned that it might get a little too PSA for the purposes of a fun, escapist RPG. Is there any other way to run this sort of campaign (and still keep the idea of it as an adventure with children as opposed to mini-adults)?
Ever watch the old Dungeons & Dragons cartoon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JjhQ1Oi_3k)? I'd run the game around that tone; give them challenges so they can test their cool abilities & spells, some dilemmas that make them consider their options, and maybe make the monsters/villains more 'Disney' than 'Dark Knight'.

whisperwind1
2015-07-14, 11:55 AM
Ever watch the old Dungeons & Dragons cartoon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JjhQ1Oi_3k)? I'd run the game around that tone; give them challenges so they can test their cool abilities & spells, some dilemmas that make them consider their options, and maybe make the monsters/villains more 'Disney' than 'Dark Knight'.

Its a good suggestion, but I was honestly hoping for something more along the lines of Young Adult fiction. Yknow, more serious and less saturday morning cartoon.

dream
2015-07-14, 12:05 PM
Its a good suggestion, but I was honestly hoping for something more along the lines of Young Adult fiction. Yknow, more serious and less saturday morning cartoon.
You mentioned Harry Potter. That nails the genre, pretty much, and your players would get the tropes associated with a game styled in that manner. Personally, I never got into the "young adult" fiction, reading J.R.R. Tolkien, Terry Brooks, and Piers Anthony early on. Maybe you can classify some of what I read as "for younger readers". Not sure :smallsmile:

I'd ask the players what they want from the game. It's my first step: there's no sense in designing/presenting an adventure that your players have no interest in. Finding out what they want and combining that knowledge with they type of character they're playing gives you all the keys you need in creating great campaigns.

If you don't mind me asking, what's the age range of the group? Middle-school? High-school?

Red Fel
2015-07-14, 12:14 PM
There are some games that are specifically geared towards "the adventures of kids or young adults," although many of them are less "high adventure" in concept than D&D/PF. I haven't played any, but I've read some and heard about others.

If you're looking for a horror/futility angle, Little Fears (http://www.littlefears.com/) is one that I've read. It's dark, and I don't recall anything favorable about the mechanics, but it's basically about kids facing off with the stuff of nightmares while the adults are too oblivious (because plot reasons) to be of any help.

If you're looking for the teen angst/emotional rollercoaster angle, Monsterhearts (http://buriedwithoutceremony.com/monsterhearts/) has been mentioned in these forums a few times. It deals with relationships, and the ordinary teen feeling that you're not normal or don't fit in, coupled with the fact that it's actually completely true.

Both games deal with similar concepts; the idea that nobody understands what you're going through, the inability to rely on others, the battle between your sense of self and your sense of self-doubt. Little Fears can have a more positive angle, in that the PCs work together to overcome the threat of Closetland, or a more horrific one, in that fear is something that can't be fully defeated, only held back. Monsterhearts, on the other hand, deals with slightly more grown-up themes, particularly the idea of relationships, both sexual and platonic, as well as betrayal and manipulation of those around you.

Deepbluediver
2015-07-14, 12:54 PM
I just want to clarify one thing- you are asking about a game where the PLAYERS themselves are young, about 11/12/13, etc, and not one where adult players are merely playing young-aged characters, correct?

If I might be so bold, perhaps you should consider using a different system altogether. D&D 3.5 or PF are pretty good, but they can get really complex really fast, and if anyone has significantly more experience with the system it could very easily turn into the whole table watching 1 person do everything. While older or more experienced players know to always ask their GM, newer players might not even realize what sort of things they could potentially perform because they haven't been told they can do it yet. (conversely, gameplay might be slowed down if someone constantly stops to ask new questions)

One of the webcomics I read, Leftover Soup, has a short arc where some of the characters are discussing DMing in various systems and how to get what the DM wants out of a game session (starting here (http://leftoversoup.com/archive.php?num=325), not that you need to know anything about the characters to get what they are talking about). They end up designing a custom system, and the cool/relevant bit is that the author/artist actually wrote up the entire set of rules as a PDF (http://leftoversoup.com/AndTheBeatGoesOn.pdf).

It's designed for a fast-paced rules-light style of gameplay, one based more on improvisation than minutia, which is exactly the sort of thing I would imagine appealing to a younger audience. The entirety of the rules is only about a dozen pages, so if you're willing to branch out, give it a read and see if it might work for what you want.


Edit: If you don't like the whole musical flavor, I imagine it would be easy enough to rewrite a few invocations and maneuvers to work with the system and play a pretty bog-standard medieval fantasy as well.

Segev
2015-07-14, 01:01 PM
In the vein of "for kid characters" systems, there's also New World of Darkness's "Innocents."


That said, my advice from the other thread stands: regardless of system, the feel of a "kids' game" is more about how they are shut off from the "adult world" by barriers of indifference, protective swaddling, and expectations that they are too immature to know what's good for them.

Adults look down on kids (often literally) for good and bad reasons. The condescend to them and, for often good reasons, consider the kids to be less trustworthy, informed, or rational than they would an adult. This can be exploited by the PCs as much as it hinders them, if they play it right. A crying child will often be able to get help where a grown-up cannot. A child pulling a Wounded Gazzelle Gambit will often fool people an adult - even an attractive woman - would not. And the fact that children are often ignored means that one who behaves quietly can sometimes get away with a lot just because the grown-ups are busy watching the other grown-ups.

Kids interact with other kids better than they do adults. At the same time, kids are much more stratified by age in who they consider a peer; big kids thing littler kids (even just a year or two younger) are "babies" while they're "grown up." Littler kids may well look up to bigger kids who treat them like equals, and tolerate as much condescention from some older kids as they would adults (even as those older kids chafe at the condescention of the adults).




I like playing kid characters. Since most games that permit them are permitting, not requiring, them, I often wind up in a party with adult characters. The party of adults serves much the same role that parents or other authority figure adults do for kids in other stories: they respect my particular child character enough to heed what he says, and transmit that to the rest of the adult world. Of course, like all kids in such situations, my PCs are at the mercy of what the other PCs choose to transmit to the world.

A party of child characters will NEED an NPC or few who they can rely on to help them with the adult world. It won't be perfect nor grant them the access being adults would, but with sufficient competence and/or wealth, they will be able to make sure their adult representatives are heard.


Again, the big thing is how the world treats children. Make sure that the majority of the world does NOT see them as "small adults," at least not until you want the story to be about young adults rather than children. (And, of course, there's still a lot of the attitude and experience of RP that is on the players' side of the equation.)

Algeh
2015-07-15, 12:33 AM
I think the first thing you need to decide is why you want to run a campaign where the PCs are adolescents. What specific parts of that appeal to you? That will help narrow down your choice of system and story, and change how you pitch it to your players.

For example, if what you want to run is a game where the PCs are bursting with untapped, unformed potential and grow into heroic adults through their exploits as tweens and teens, that's something that could very easily be run in a lot of typical "go on an adventure and do stuff" based systems simply by starting out with very low-level characters and letting them progress from there. Personally, I'd use GURPS for that, but that probably says more about which systems I like than it does about which system this would be easiest to do in. (Although a points and skills based system does have some definite advantages over a level and class system for showing continuous, gradual improvement at a variety of things and letting you start very underpowered.)

If you want something that models the actual social and emotional growth over that time period (rather than just that people get both stronger and learn more stuff as they grow up), I really don't know what to suggest other than brainstorming with your players over how to achieve that "feel". I work with middle school students for a living, and I'd have to stretch to play one authentically in a game because they really are in a different mental space than I spend most of my time in as an adult. Different sorts of behaviors are funny, different sorts of plans seem like a good idea, most things are more dramatically good or bad with fewer nuances. Impulse control is genuinely harder, and even "good" kids will occasionally act like total turkeys, and then when you ask them, they'll have no idea why. They're not just saying they don't know why they did something to avoid getting in trouble, every now and then they just do something without really thinking about it.

Quick example: when I was in high school (many years ago) I was in an auditioned city-wide performing choir that met in the evenings. I wanted to be there (it was something I'd chosen for myself and then told my parents I was auditioning for rather than something I was being pushed into like some of the other kids) and so I generally took it seriously and behaved myself during rehearsals and performances. One day, in the lead-up rehearsal to some performance or other, we were all standing up in our assigned places and listening to our director give a long, boring lecture on appropriate behavior and appearance at wherever it was we were going to be going the next weekend (this group was very strict about not being distracting by standing out from the group - things like hemlines being a regulation 10 inches from the floor and wearing opaque black tights with matte flat black shoes that didn't click on the floor, no big or sparkly jewelry, don't fidget, etc). Since we got basically the same lecture every time, I tuned it out and was fiddling with my necklace while staring straight ahead into space and thinking about something else entirely (probably Babylon 5, knowing high school aged me). Suddenly, fiddling with my necklace turned into me blowing bubbles at my director in the middle of her appropriate behavior lecture, because it happened to be a bubble necklace and my hands/mouth and the part of my brain in charge of evaluating what I should be doing right then were apparently not speaking to each other. I still remember doing this, and both at the time and now I can't explain a reason why I'd do it. I honestly didn't go through the part of having an idea where you hold it up to the decision-making part of your brain and evaluate whether or not it's something you should be doing right now. (Because I'd been in the group for over a year at this point and the director knew this was bizarrely out of character for me, she stopped her lecture, looked at me, and said something like "I'm going to pretend that didn't just happen, because I know you didn't mean to do that" and went back to her lecture. Didn't even confiscate the bubbles or talk to me again about it later.) Anyway, most kids will do something like this every now and then, because their brains are basically re-wiring themselves to prepare for adulthood and sometimes they don't work quite right in the middle of the renovation project. I have NO IDEA how to model that in a game in a way that would be fun and interesting rather than just involve a lot of really terrible "roll to see if you screw up for no reason in some wacky way" tables, though.

If you want something that models an afterschool special feel, but in a lighthearted way, you could use a really narrative-based system and have the characters literally add new skills and abilities to their character sheets as the result of small "I learned something today" speeches extemporized at the end of each session instead of XP.

So really, I think the more you narrow down what is drawing you about adolescent PCs the easier time you will have finding a system.

whisperwind1
2015-07-15, 05:49 AM
I just want to clarify one thing- you are asking about a game where the PLAYERS themselves are young, about 11/12/13, etc, and not one where adult players are merely playing young-aged characters, correct?


Actually its the Adult players playing young characters one. Should have made that more clear. Sorry about that.

whisperwind1
2015-07-15, 06:23 AM
I think the first thing you need to decide is why you want to run a campaign where the PCs are adolescents. What specific parts of that appeal to you? That will help narrow down your choice of system and story, and change how you pitch it to your players.

For example, if what you want to run is a game where the PCs are bursting with untapped, unformed potential and grow into heroic adults through their exploits as tweens and teens, that's something that could very easily be run in a lot of typical "go on an adventure and do stuff" based systems simply by starting out with very low-level characters and letting them progress from there. Personally, I'd use GURPS for that, but that probably says more about which systems I like than it does about which system this would be easiest to do in. (Although a points and skills based system does have some definite advantages over a level and class system for showing continuous, gradual improvement at a variety of things and letting you start very underpowered.)

If you want something that models the actual social and emotional growth over that time period (rather than just that people get both stronger and learn more stuff as they grow up), I really don't know what to suggest other than brainstorming with your players over how to achieve that "feel". I work with middle school students for a living, and I'd have to stretch to play one authentically in a game because they really are in a different mental space than I spend most of my time in as an adult. Different sorts of behaviors are funny, different sorts of plans seem like a good idea, most things are more dramatically good or bad with fewer nuances. Impulse control is genuinely harder, and even "good" kids will occasionally act like total turkeys, and then when you ask them, they'll have no idea why. They're not just saying they don't know why they did something to avoid getting in trouble, every now and then they just do something without really thinking about it.

If you want something that models an afterschool special feel, but in a lighthearted way, you could use a really narrative-based system and have the characters literally add new skills and abilities to their character sheets as the result of small "I learned something today" speeches extemporized at the end of each session instead of XP.

So really, I think the more you narrow down what is drawing you about adolescent PCs the easier time you will have finding a system.

Well I was hoping for something like a fantasy adventure, but seen through the eyes of children (specifically between the ages of 11 and 15. its that stage where kids have full personalities and are able to make rational choices most of the time, but are still quite a ways from being adults.) I guess what initially drew me to the idea is having that sense of discovery and excitement that you really only feel when you're a kid. The idea that everything is bigger, starker and simpler than how adults see them. Of course I like the idea that adolescents face the same challenges as adults in such a setting (medieval fantasy worlds are still dangerous), but I don't want the story to turn into adults who happen to be kids. Then again, like many people have said, that'd be up to the players to convey

I guess a good example of the kind of story I was hoping for would be Runaways (the comic), except in a fantasy setting (although even that story is too "grown-up"). The idea however, that these kids have epic adventures every bit as meaningful as adults though, that's what I'm looking for. I do agree with Segev though, that these stories might never be acknowledged by adults (unless I was to go full-on "Chosen Ones" with the story, which is definitely possible). Another influence would be the Belgariad (though its debatable as to whether that's YA at all), but probably with alot less chaperoning from adults. Ultimately its that Spielbergian idea of kids facing adversity and coming into their own as people, realizing their potential in a way only they can. Once Upon a Forest (quality aside) and Land Before Time really try for that idea, and that's probably closest to what I want out of an adolescent campaign.

Segev
2015-07-15, 10:51 AM
Quick example: when I was in high school (many years ago) I was in an auditioned city-wide performing choir that met in the evenings. I wanted to be there (it was something I'd chosen for myself and then told my parents I was auditioning for rather than something I was being pushed into like some of the other kids) and so I generally took it seriously and behaved myself during rehearsals and performances. One day, in the lead-up rehearsal to some performance or other, we were all standing up in our assigned places and listening to our director give a long, boring lecture on appropriate behavior and appearance at wherever it was we were going to be going the next weekend (this group was very strict about not being distracting by standing out from the group - things like hemlines being a regulation 10 inches from the floor and wearing opaque black tights with matte flat black shoes that didn't click on the floor, no big or sparkly jewelry, don't fidget, etc). Since we got basically the same lecture every time, I tuned it out and was fiddling with my necklace while staring straight ahead into space and thinking about something else entirely (probably Babylon 5, knowing high school aged me). Suddenly, fiddling with my necklace turned into me blowing bubbles at my director in the middle of her appropriate behavior lecture, because it happened to be a bubble necklace and my hands/mouth and the part of my brain in charge of evaluating what I should be doing right then were apparently not speaking to each other. I still remember doing this, and both at the time and now I can't explain a reason why I'd do it. I honestly didn't go through the part of having an idea where you hold it up to the decision-making part of your brain and evaluate whether or not it's something you should be doing right now. (Because I'd been in the group for over a year at this point and the director knew this was bizarrely out of character for me, she stopped her lecture, looked at me, and said something like "I'm going to pretend that didn't just happen, because I know you didn't mean to do that" and went back to her lecture. Didn't even confiscate the bubbles or talk to me again about it later.) Anyway, most kids will do something like this every now and then, because their brains are basically re-wiring themselves to prepare for adulthood and sometimes they don't work quite right in the middle of the renovation project. I have NO IDEA how to model that in a game in a way that would be fun and interesting rather than just involve a lot of really terrible "roll to see if you screw up for no reason in some wacky way" tables, though.This is honestly a combination of two things: Player willingness to make known-sub-optimal decisions based on their child-PC's immature outlook, and fluffing failed skill checks appropriately.

Let's take the bubble-blowing: if the party is trying to diplomance their way into being actually treated with respect long enough to tell the captain of the guard that, yes, they ARE certain that the goblin army they came here to warn him about isn't just a band of 5...and the party Face fails the roll, perhaps it's because the rogue was toying with something like this bubble-necklace and thoughtlessly did something supremely childish that marred the "grown up" image they were trying as a party to create.

This is a general RP tip I've found enhances games a lot: when a character who is SUPPOSED to be good at something screws up a roll, you don't have to make it "his fault" or a "hillarious screw-up." You can make it be some circumstance outside his control: maybe he did make that soufle` just right...but then a dog barked outside and it deflated. (okay, that's still on the 'funny' side, but still...) Or maybe the sailor who failed on "use rope" to tie a knot tied it just fine...but the rope itself was rotten and snapped.

Use foibles that are supposed to be part of the party's character to explain some of the party's mechanical failures; you don't have to force them, that way. They just become explanations for WHY the failures that were mechanically dictated actually happened.


Well I was hoping for something like a fantasy adventure, but seen through the eyes of children (specifically between the ages of 11 and 15. its that stage where kids have full personalities and are able to make rational choices most of the time, but are still quite a ways from being adults.) I guess what initially drew me to the idea is having that sense of discovery and excitement that you really only feel when you're a kid. The idea that everything is bigger, starker and simpler than how adults see them. Of course I like the idea that adolescents face the same challenges as adults in such a setting (medieval fantasy worlds are still dangerous), but I don't want the story to turn into adults who happen to be kids. Then again, like many people have said, that'd be up to the players to convey

I guess a good example of the kind of story I was hoping for would be Runaways (the comic), except in a fantasy setting (although even that story is too "grown-up"). The idea however, that these kids have epic adventures every bit as meaningful as adults though, that's what I'm looking for. I do agree with Segev though, that these stories might never be acknowledged by adults (unless I was to go full-on "Chosen Ones" with the story, which is definitely possible). Another influence would be the Belgariad (though its debatable as to whether that's YA at all), but probably with alot less chaperoning from adults. Ultimately its that Spielbergian idea of kids facing adversity and coming into their own as people, realizing their potential in a way only they can. Once Upon a Forest (quality aside) and Land Before Time really try for that idea, and that's probably closest to what I want out of an adolescent campaign.

Funny, I kept thinking I should mention Runaways to you as a model for how to handle it. Since you're aware of it, I woudl recommend that you run with that, and just think about how the cultural barriers to children look in the setting you want to run; clearly, Runaways's modern setting means that there are things like child services and formal ages of majority below which specific laws apply. This is not going to necessarily be the case in a fantasy setting, but the cultural traditions will still be in place. This gives both more and less flexibility to the kid characters: if they can pull it off, they can be treated as small adults...but even if they have "proof" they are a certain age, no rules are in place to support them being treated with more legal rights and privileges. So it is ALL on them to look and act the part.

Deepbluediver
2015-07-15, 11:03 AM
Well I was hoping for something like a fantasy adventure, but seen through the eyes of children (specifically between the ages of 11 and 15. its that stage where kids have full personalities and are able to make rational choices most of the time, but are still quite a ways from being adults.) I guess what initially drew me to the idea is having that sense of discovery and excitement that you really only feel when you're a kid. The idea that everything is bigger, starker and simpler than how adults see them. Of course I like the idea that adolescents face the same challenges as adults in such a setting (medieval fantasy worlds are still dangerous), but I don't want the story to turn into adults who happen to be kids. Then again, like many people have said, that'd be up to the players to convey.
For this kind of thing, I've been working on designing an entire setting that is effectively an adventurer's paradise. It's not grimdark and it's not whatever the opposite of that is, but there are specific mechanics and in-game reasons for why there in an almost endless supply of quests, fun things to do, battles to fight, people to meet, treasure to find, etc etc etc.

In essence it was an attempt to reconcile all the various things that don't make sense in a world as we knot it from standard D&D.

GungHo
2015-07-16, 01:34 PM
I'd probably run it like a normal party adventure, but table the mature themes and make things a little more black and white to start out with, with the grimdark stuff developing as the characters age or made a little more mysterious. I wouldn't want to keep the party a young party forever. Buffy Summers eventually graduated from high school, if you know what I mean.