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IonizedChicken
2007-05-01, 07:58 AM
Say you're a 6th-level Warblade and want to take the toll off the party cleric. Well, here is something that might help you.

Ingredients:
-2 Iron Heart Maneuvers.
-Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) or Devoted Spirit Amulet to get Crusader's Strike.
-Iron Heart Aura
-Stormguard Warrior
-Dog. Preferably a small one.
-Non-True Neutral alignment.

Preparation:
1) Enrage the dog in some way so that it "poses a threat to you or your party in some direct, immediate way" (wording of Crusader's Strike).

2) Use Crusader's Strike against the dog, exchanging the normal melee attack for a touch attack using the Stormguard Warrior feat. This touch attack is bound to hit and deal no damage (thus the dog stays alive).

3) Heal yourself or one creature within 10 feet for 1d6+5 hit points.

4) Recover Crusader's Strike (careful not to damage the dog!).

5) Repeat steps 2 through 4 until the party is at maximum hit points.

6) Enjoy!

Variant Method

Ingredients:
-Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) Devoted Spirit Amulet or Crusader
-Lots of dogs. And I mean lots of dogs.
-Evil alignment.

Preparation:
1) Enrage one of your dogs in some way so that it "poses a threat to you or your party in some direct, immediate way" (wording of Crusader's Strike).

2) Use Crusader's Strike against the dog, likely killing it.

3) Heal yourself or one creature within 10 feet for 1d6+initiator level hit points.

4) Recover Crusader's Strike.

5) Move on to the next dog.

6) Perform steps 1 through 5 until your party is at full HP.

7) Bury/feast/do anything else your Evil alignment compels you to do.

8) Enjoy!

Ikkitosen
2007-05-01, 08:13 AM
If your DM will allow this then why should they not just allow you to rest for 8 hours (and thus use/recover all healing spells)?

IonizedChicken
2007-05-01, 08:14 AM
Because it doesn't involve petting dogs, silly.

Also, resting involves 8 hours. This requires 5 minutes.

Dausuul
2007-05-01, 08:23 AM
1) Enrage the dog in some way so that it "poses a threat to you or your party in some direct, immediate way" (wording of Crusader's Strike).

This is the problem with your plan right here. If the dog poses a threat to you or your party, then how do you expect to survive if all you do to stop that threat is make touch attacks that do no damage?

You can't have it both ways. If the dog is too small and weak to hurt you, then it doesn't pose a threat. If it's big enough to pose a threat, then it'll hurt you.

The Glyphstone
2007-05-01, 08:32 AM
Hey, even dogs can roll 3 natural 20's in a row, eventually...

IonizedChicken
2007-05-01, 08:36 AM
The dog can hurt you. In fact, given enough time, it can kill you. You're going to survive because it's going to take it a ridiculously long time to do so, though. But yeah, if it can kill you, I'd define it as a threat. A minor threat, but still a threat.

Funkyodor
2007-05-01, 08:40 AM
That would be soo funny.
Hank: "Hey all, I got this trick. Prepare to get your heal on."
Party: "Sure, we're all kinda beat up. Go ahead."
Hank: *Pokes dog with stick* "There he goes" *reaches out to touch attack dog*
DM: "The dog has a firm clamp around your, uh, throat, and begins to shake your limp body like a rag doll" *reveals [20][20][20].
Party: "Uh, maybe we should leave. Hanks a gonner"

Dausuul
2007-05-01, 08:45 AM
The dog can hurt you. In fact, given enough time, it can kill you. You're going to survive because it's going to take it a ridiculously long time to do so, though. But yeah, if it can kill you, I'd define it as a threat. A minor threat, but still a threat.

I guess that depends on how your DM interprets "threat." If your Crusader's Strike will heal more damage per round than it can inflict, then I'd say it doesn't qualify, for much the same reason that I wouldn't allow an evil crusader to heal himself by stopping at an isolated farmhouse and butchering the 1st-level commoner inhabitants. A threat is something that can plausibly kill you, even if you take reasonable measures to defend yourself. The fact that the dog could kill you over the course of 10 minutes if you lay down and didn't move does not make it a threat.

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-01, 08:53 AM
...so you can't use your class abilities if you're attacked by kobolds?

I think the ability text SHOULD read "poses a threat to you or your party in some direct, immediate way - DM DISCRETION." That lets your DM decree that this dog trick - very clearly an exploit - doesn't work, without hobbling you against real enemies that would be "too easy" to pose much of a threat.

Edit: As it is, by RAW, I think it does work. Assuming the dog is really doing it's best to kill you, that is.

Swooper
2007-05-01, 09:05 AM
Oh gods. If this works, it's wrong on the "bag of puppies + whirlwind attack + cleave - trick" level. Please tell me you will never, ever do this. :smalleek:

Edo
2007-05-01, 09:28 AM
You could do the same thing at 1st level, if you took Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) and Martial Stance (Martial Spirit).

Take a whip (you can endure the -4) and start using it on some armored but easy-to-hit target. Warforged are wonderful for the purpose.

Granted, Stormguard Warrior is a much better feat investment, but there's no accounting for taste.

Lord Tataraus
2007-05-01, 09:45 AM
Um, you do know that you can't recover a maneuver learned through martial study, right? and Crusader's don't regian maneuvers that fast either. And ditto to the whole "pose a threat" thing, unless your petting a Hellhound.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-05-01, 10:42 AM
...so you can't use your class abilities if you're attacked by kobolds?


You mean Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) are no threat?

IonizedChicken
2007-05-01, 02:59 PM
Um, you do know that you can't recover a maneuver learned through martial study, right? and Crusader's don't regian maneuvers that fast either. And ditto to the whole "pose a threat" thing, unless your petting a Hellhound.
No, I don't know that, because it's just not true. Maneuvers learned through Martial Study are added to your maneuvers known (if you have initiator levels), which means you can recover it.

Regardless, a better way to get Crusader's Strike is probably the Devoted Spirit Amulet (novice) which costs 3,000gp. No need to any feats or such

As for the thing with a dog not being a real threat, well there is no RAW definition for this sort of thing, so we'll have to make do with a literary one.


1. An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment.
2. An indication of impending danger or harm.
3. One that is regarded as a possible danger; a menace.
The literary definition doesn't say 'likely' or 'probable', merely that a threat is one that is regarded as a possible danger. So, in the very least, we have an case of ambiguity on our hands. In such a case, I'd say that one opinion is as good as any other, unless one of those includes factual evidence.
While you may not accept this sort of trick in your game (neither will I), it doesn't mean it is not RAW, which is the only thing I'm trying to say.

Edo: That's quite an interesting idea. I haven't thought of whips :)

Da Beast
2007-05-01, 03:03 PM
You mean Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) are no threat?

I've never played ADnD but I can't really see that being a threat to 12th level wizard in 3.5. One spell for fire resistance and one protection from arrows later and he can then walk around, impervious to the cross bows and non magical fire, moping kobolds up with his trusty walking stick. If things get bad, one dimension door and he's out of danger. Sure the wizard’s buffs can be dispelled and he can be blocked in with dimensional anchor, but not by level one kobold warriors.

InaVegt
2007-05-01, 03:05 PM
IC, I'd like to think trying to bite someone (with a bite technically capable of killing humans) counts as
1. An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment. so as soon as the dog uses it's bite attack on you it's a threat.

UglyPanda
2007-05-01, 04:09 PM
Is there some reason that other members of your party don't count as substitutes for a dog? If there isn't, then you can just say that it's a sparing match and be done with it. when you spar, you try to see if it's possible to hurt the other guy, that definitely counts as a threat.

random11
2007-05-01, 04:27 PM
The dog can hurt you. In fact, given enough time, it can kill you. You're going to survive because it's going to take it a ridiculously long time to do so, though. But yeah, if it can kill you, I'd define it as a threat. A minor threat, but still a threat.

But using this tactic, clearly the character doesn't see it as a threat.

Everyman
2007-05-01, 04:28 PM
Your allies can't be sparring with you and count as threats. You're allies are not intending to harm you, especially if they participate so you can restore them. If they were threatening you, they wouldn't be your allies, would they?

IonizedChicken
2007-05-01, 04:30 PM
Refer to the dictionary definition above. A threat is something that is regarded as a possible danger. Not a likely or probable danger. I would view a mad dog as a possible danger because it can hurt me. It is also threatening me through definition #1.

I think party members being a threat has less substance, personally, than a mad dog.

UglyPanda
2007-05-01, 04:32 PM
That's what nonlethal damage is for. Give the other guy a sap sized for a fairy and a blindfold and tell him that if he lands 20 hits, he gets an extra piece of bread for dinner. Combat should count as a threatening situation. There have been a number of times where I've been hit by something when I'm clearly not threatening anything.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-01, 07:21 PM
As a GM, I would rule that 'poses a threat to you or your party in some direct, immediate way' would mean that it is an encounter which you can recieve xp for. If you cannot recieve xp for defeating it, then it is not a threat to you.

turtleant120
2007-05-01, 07:34 PM
Oh gods. If this works, it's wrong on the "bag of puppies + whirlwind attack + cleave - trick" level. Please tell me you will never, ever do this. :smalleek:
This sounds intresting, tell me more.:smallamused:

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-01, 07:39 PM
This sounds intresting, tell me more.:smallamused:

One bag of puppies, Warmind 5 and Great Cleave is required.

Basically, the Warmind5 trick lets you get a free second attack on anything within 10' when you hit something. So, kill a puppy, free attack on critter from Warmind5. Great Cleave since you dropped the puppy, smack critter again. You have as many attacks as you have puppies.

Whirlwind/Cleave doesn't work. RAW specifically states Cleave cannot be used in conjunction with Whirlwind.

turtleant120
2007-05-01, 07:43 PM
One bag of puppies, Warmind 5 and Great Cleave is required.

Basically, the Warmind5 trick lets you get a free second attack on anything within 10' when you hit something. So, kill a puppy, free attack on critter from Warmind5. Great Cleave since you dropped the puppy, smack critter again. You have as many attacks as you have puppies.

Whirlwind/Cleave doesn't work. RAW specifically states Cleave cannot be used in conjunction with Whirlwind.
WHEEEEEEEEE! Super sword-bounce-puppy-death-strike GO!
*leaves to go make a warmind*

UglyPanda
2007-05-01, 08:39 PM
As he just said, the trick was previously performed with whirlwind attack. It was called the bag of rats trick. Expect your DM to know it.

Edo
2007-05-01, 08:44 PM
Your allies can't be sparring with you and count as threats. You're allies are not intending to harm you, especially if they participate so you can restore them. If they were threatening you, they wouldn't be your allies, would they?That's true for the Crusader's Strike. It's not true for Martial Spirit stance, which heals 2 hp whenever you land a hit, no questions asked.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-01, 08:51 PM
Your allies can't be sparring with you and count as threats. You're allies are not intending to harm you, especially if they participate so you can restore them. If they were threatening you, they wouldn't be your allies, would they?

One possible exception: do a mediocre job of tying up the party's frenzied beserker, get said FB into a frenzy, and heal the party and the berserker before the FB can get out of the bindings.

Dausuul
2007-05-01, 09:17 PM
As he just said, the trick was previously performed with whirlwind attack. It was called the bag of rats trick. Expect your DM to know it.

You could also use Mithral Tornado, I think (4th-level Iron Heart maneuver from Tome of Battle).

turtleant120
2007-05-02, 12:21 AM
As he just said, the trick was previously performed with whirlwind attack. It was called the bag of rats trick. Expect your DM to know it.
Except I'm the Dm and the PCs are gonna meet one very anoying villain.:smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-02, 02:15 AM
Except I'm the Dm and the PCs are gonna meet one very anoying villain.:smallbiggrin:

You can easily TPK a party by granting yourself practically unlimited attacks that way... use a Spiked Chain with Expansion power manifested and you can almost certainly TPK the whole party in one round.

random11
2007-05-02, 02:27 AM
You can easily TPK a party by granting yourself practically unlimited attacks that way... use a Spiked Chain with Expansion power manifested and you can almost certainly TPK the whole party in one round.

Even better, use the exact same exploit against the players.
After all, if that is something that can be done in the world, they sure aren't the only ones using it.

DM: You see a hooded man with a sword and a basket full of pupies.
Players: Oh oh...

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-02, 02:31 AM
Even better, use the exact same exploit against the players.
After all, if that is something that can be done in the world, they sure aren't the only ones using it.

DM: You see a hooded man with a sword and a basket full of pupies.
Players: Oh oh...

That's exactly what he is planning on doing...

AnyMageWithABrain: I use some sort of AE effect to kill the puppies. Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Cloudkill... ANYTHING...

JaronK
2007-05-02, 04:03 AM
Better methods:

Martial Spirit doesn't require you to be attacking an enemy, so you can punch friends for 1 point of non leathal damage to heal 2 points of leathal damage. No dogs required.

Other ways: Binders can do it with the right vestige

Dread Necromancers can do it from level 1, but they can only do it to people with Tomb Tainted Soul or to Undead.

Clerics can persist Lesser Mass Vigor and cover everyone.

But downtime healing is easy... Rope Trick gives you plenty of time to recharge, and a wand of Remedy Moderate Wounds heals 26hp per shot for a level 2 spell.

JaronK

IonizedChicken
2007-05-02, 04:10 AM
Wait.

Martial spirit doesn't actually require an attack on a creature. As such, you might as well be attacking the ground and still healing hit points. This means that, though with a little difficulty, you could reasonably use this trick to heal hit points in the middle of an encounter by simply attacking the ground. Using the proper combination of maneuvers and abilities, you could be healing as much as 30 or so per round.

Not only that, but the wording on Martial Stance seems to say that you don't need to retain the maneuver from the discipline to retain the stance (since the requirement for a maneuver of the same discipline doesn't appear in the prerequisites but in the selection process itself, which we have already passed). As such, we could use Devoted Spirit Amulet to answer these prerequisites and then later not even wear it (which is a waste of a slotted item in my opinion).

All in all, Martial Spirit abuse seems like less cheesy than Crusader's Strike abuse, though it still requires a feat. It can also be used when soloing.

random11
2007-05-02, 04:12 AM
Better methods:

Martial Spirit doesn't require you to be attacking an enemy, so you can punch friends for 1 point of non leathal damage to heal 2 points of leathal damage. No dogs required.

Punching someone in the face in order to heal him, that's an interesting concept :smallsmile:

Tengu
2007-05-02, 05:59 AM
poses a threat to you or your party in some direct, immediate way
So now DND has an "when the screen goes swoosh, enemies appear and the background music changes to battle theme" option? ToB gets cooler and cooler.

And yeah, in my FF game I also have abilities that are usable only in combat.

The rest of the thread is too funny to comment on.

Mewtarthio
2007-05-02, 08:11 PM
Punching someone in the face in order to heal him, that's an interesting concept :smallsmile:

You gotta be cruel to be kind...

Could lead to an interesting scene if you need to revive someone at -10 < HP < 0:

*KICK!* "Stop dying and get up!" *KICK!*

Talya
2007-05-02, 08:44 PM
By RAW, you don't even need to get the dog angry at you. By RAW, any small or larger armed creature threatens adjacent squares. Bwahahahah!

JaronK
2007-05-03, 01:53 AM
Punching someone in the face in order to heal him, that's an interesting concept :smallsmile:

Crusaders are like crazy football coaches.

"AAAGH! I broke my leg!"

*Punch in face* "Walk it off!"

"Hey, that's odd, I totally feel better now"

JaronK