schreier
2015-07-15, 07:42 AM
OK ... playing with various builds quickly takes me down the rabbit hole - in this case, I was trying to build a ranger-based mount character. I am looking at a lot of options, ideally including druid - to encapsulate all of the things I'm considering, I have to show a level 25 build - I would trim it down to 20, once I'm sure I understand all the permutations and relationships between classes and feats, but left it at epic levels for now to get everything in.
I used this as reference: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142554-New-World-Record-Mount-Familiar-Companion-by-HD
Not trying to set records, more to understand things. I did make some of the same assumptions as the above thread. In particular:
"This build uses the interpretation that the Special Mount ability and a paladin's mount are interchangeable. The rationale is that because no other class in core has a special mount besides the paladin class, any abilities/feats/items,etc mentioning special mounts are in fact referencing all paladin-like Special Mount abilities." ....
Thus, any feat that allows "combine the levels of your paladin class with ..." to determine mount abilities would be read as "combine the levels of classes that grant the mount special ability with ... "
The current classes included:
Ranger 4 (Shooting Star, take Sword of the Arcane Order)
Wizard 3 (may take eidetic spellcaster, may not)
Druid 3
Arcane Heirophant 6 (need to get a total wizard level of 9 to cast dispel evil for sacred exorcist)
Stalker of Kharash 6 (need to get to level 6 for Smite evil for Devoted Tracker)
Ranger Knight 1
Sacred Exorcist 1 (need to get Turn Undead for Knight of the Blue Moon)
Knight of the Blue Moon 1
Obviously, things are slightly complicated by the need to remain Neutral for Druid - precluding any Paladin classes, which in turn requires Stalker and Sacred Exorcist for Smite/Turn Undead (although you could do cleric instead of exorcist - which would require fewer wizard levels, but be less synergistic)
Feats that would be involved in Mount/Familiar/Animal Companion would be: Devoted Tracker, Holy Mount, Theurgic Mount, Theurgic Bond, and Dragon Steed.
Ranger - with Shooting Star 4, loses animal companion. It also improves spellcasting, setting ranger casting at 1/2 ranger level +2 + other class arcane casting levels
Ranger - with Sword of the Arcane Order, can allow casting of arcane spells in ranger slots. IF have levels in wizard, wizard caster level is wizard, paladin and ranger levels combined (I read that as included ranger levels in wizard casting level)
Wizard 3 - with eidetic spellcaster, lose familiar, and is an arcane caster class
Druid 3 - advances animal companion as normal, and is a divine caster class
Arcane Hierophant 6 - advances animal companion, can count companion as familiar, is a divine AND arcane caster class
Stalker of Kharash - advances ranger casting (which is a divine caster ... and can cast arcane spells through sword of the arcane order)
Ranger Knight 1 - gives mount at +5 level compared to paladin level
Sacred Exorcist 1 - in this case, must be used to increase arcane caster level since that is where dispel evil is known
Knight of the Blue Moon - Stacks with paladin level for mount but is matching alignment. If not familiar, levels of sorcerer or wizard also stack towards special mount. Also allows improvement to either druid or wizard spellcasting level
Devoted Tracker - if have both mount and animal companion, can designate mount as animal companion
Holy Mount - Can combine paladin levels with other divine spellcasting classes for special mount
Theurgic Mount - Can combine paladin levels with arcane spellcasting classes for special mount
Theurgic Bond - Select a familiar or companion - when determine abilities of chosen familiar or companion, combine levels of classes that grant either companion or familiar to determine abilities
Dragon Steed - Can select a special mount from a list, adjusting the "advancements" given to the mount due to "paladin" level
First question - for all of the "combine companion and mount (devoted tracker)" and "combine familiar and companion (arcane hierophant)" type abilities - would the effective level for companion and familiar be adjusted based on the mount? As a simplification, if you take a spiked felldrake (lvl 11 paladin to be available), and have lvl 20 familiar and lvl 20 companion all combined - do you reduce the level of familiar and companion abilities to account for the higher level? Or do you give them 20 levels of advancement as companion and familiar?
Second question - for Holy Mount, do you include all ranger levels (and stalker), or just 4+ where he has casting ability? I assume it's class levels, not caster levels.
Third question - for Theurgic Mount - do you include ranger levels, since they have the ability to cast arcane spells? (in a prior thread, the answer I got was no - which makes sense - just consolidating into one thread for efficiency and to confirm).
Fourth - Do you include Arcane hierophant in both Holy Mount and Theurgic Mount (double-counting it effectively)?
Fifth - Knight of the blue moon says if there is no familiar, then you can add Wizard levels to mount calculation ... although Arcane Hierophant allows the companion to gain the abilities of a familiar, it is not technically a familiar from what I understand. Also - the wizard class gave up the familiar ability for eidetic spellcaster. Also ... the class says Wizard, not "arcane spellcasting" - so I assume it's just wizard. My reading here is that you would include the wizard levels as mount levels (but not any other levels that advance arcane spellcasting), and the mount/companion could still get the familiar-like abilities - does that make sense?
Sixth - Arcane hierophant allows the companion to get the abilities of a familiar, counting "arcane spellcasting class levels" - For this, it does not seem to matter if you sacrificed the ability to get a familiar, nor does it restrict it to wizard/sorcerer. So it seems like you could include wizard, arcane hierophant, sacred exorcist and knight of the blue moon? Would knight only be included if you increased arcane (as opposed to druid)?
Seventh - Theurgic bond allows "familiar" levels to be added to "companion" levels ... since he technically doesn't have the ability to get a familiar (Sacrificing it for eidetic) - would that be "zero" levels allowing familiar, meaning it would not add to companion level? Would this change if you took "obtain familiar?" It isn't a class feature, so I'm guessing not. Can this feat add the companion levels to the "familiar" abilities instead (it isn't technically a familiar)? My guess is that this one doesn't work in this case, but figured I'd throw it in to get people's thoughts.
I think that's it ... sorry for the long post (and semi-duplicative, with the sword of arcane order post - just seemed sufficiently different to justify a new post)
Thanks!
schreier
I used this as reference: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142554-New-World-Record-Mount-Familiar-Companion-by-HD
Not trying to set records, more to understand things. I did make some of the same assumptions as the above thread. In particular:
"This build uses the interpretation that the Special Mount ability and a paladin's mount are interchangeable. The rationale is that because no other class in core has a special mount besides the paladin class, any abilities/feats/items,etc mentioning special mounts are in fact referencing all paladin-like Special Mount abilities." ....
Thus, any feat that allows "combine the levels of your paladin class with ..." to determine mount abilities would be read as "combine the levels of classes that grant the mount special ability with ... "
The current classes included:
Ranger 4 (Shooting Star, take Sword of the Arcane Order)
Wizard 3 (may take eidetic spellcaster, may not)
Druid 3
Arcane Heirophant 6 (need to get a total wizard level of 9 to cast dispel evil for sacred exorcist)
Stalker of Kharash 6 (need to get to level 6 for Smite evil for Devoted Tracker)
Ranger Knight 1
Sacred Exorcist 1 (need to get Turn Undead for Knight of the Blue Moon)
Knight of the Blue Moon 1
Obviously, things are slightly complicated by the need to remain Neutral for Druid - precluding any Paladin classes, which in turn requires Stalker and Sacred Exorcist for Smite/Turn Undead (although you could do cleric instead of exorcist - which would require fewer wizard levels, but be less synergistic)
Feats that would be involved in Mount/Familiar/Animal Companion would be: Devoted Tracker, Holy Mount, Theurgic Mount, Theurgic Bond, and Dragon Steed.
Ranger - with Shooting Star 4, loses animal companion. It also improves spellcasting, setting ranger casting at 1/2 ranger level +2 + other class arcane casting levels
Ranger - with Sword of the Arcane Order, can allow casting of arcane spells in ranger slots. IF have levels in wizard, wizard caster level is wizard, paladin and ranger levels combined (I read that as included ranger levels in wizard casting level)
Wizard 3 - with eidetic spellcaster, lose familiar, and is an arcane caster class
Druid 3 - advances animal companion as normal, and is a divine caster class
Arcane Hierophant 6 - advances animal companion, can count companion as familiar, is a divine AND arcane caster class
Stalker of Kharash - advances ranger casting (which is a divine caster ... and can cast arcane spells through sword of the arcane order)
Ranger Knight 1 - gives mount at +5 level compared to paladin level
Sacred Exorcist 1 - in this case, must be used to increase arcane caster level since that is where dispel evil is known
Knight of the Blue Moon - Stacks with paladin level for mount but is matching alignment. If not familiar, levels of sorcerer or wizard also stack towards special mount. Also allows improvement to either druid or wizard spellcasting level
Devoted Tracker - if have both mount and animal companion, can designate mount as animal companion
Holy Mount - Can combine paladin levels with other divine spellcasting classes for special mount
Theurgic Mount - Can combine paladin levels with arcane spellcasting classes for special mount
Theurgic Bond - Select a familiar or companion - when determine abilities of chosen familiar or companion, combine levels of classes that grant either companion or familiar to determine abilities
Dragon Steed - Can select a special mount from a list, adjusting the "advancements" given to the mount due to "paladin" level
First question - for all of the "combine companion and mount (devoted tracker)" and "combine familiar and companion (arcane hierophant)" type abilities - would the effective level for companion and familiar be adjusted based on the mount? As a simplification, if you take a spiked felldrake (lvl 11 paladin to be available), and have lvl 20 familiar and lvl 20 companion all combined - do you reduce the level of familiar and companion abilities to account for the higher level? Or do you give them 20 levels of advancement as companion and familiar?
Second question - for Holy Mount, do you include all ranger levels (and stalker), or just 4+ where he has casting ability? I assume it's class levels, not caster levels.
Third question - for Theurgic Mount - do you include ranger levels, since they have the ability to cast arcane spells? (in a prior thread, the answer I got was no - which makes sense - just consolidating into one thread for efficiency and to confirm).
Fourth - Do you include Arcane hierophant in both Holy Mount and Theurgic Mount (double-counting it effectively)?
Fifth - Knight of the blue moon says if there is no familiar, then you can add Wizard levels to mount calculation ... although Arcane Hierophant allows the companion to gain the abilities of a familiar, it is not technically a familiar from what I understand. Also - the wizard class gave up the familiar ability for eidetic spellcaster. Also ... the class says Wizard, not "arcane spellcasting" - so I assume it's just wizard. My reading here is that you would include the wizard levels as mount levels (but not any other levels that advance arcane spellcasting), and the mount/companion could still get the familiar-like abilities - does that make sense?
Sixth - Arcane hierophant allows the companion to get the abilities of a familiar, counting "arcane spellcasting class levels" - For this, it does not seem to matter if you sacrificed the ability to get a familiar, nor does it restrict it to wizard/sorcerer. So it seems like you could include wizard, arcane hierophant, sacred exorcist and knight of the blue moon? Would knight only be included if you increased arcane (as opposed to druid)?
Seventh - Theurgic bond allows "familiar" levels to be added to "companion" levels ... since he technically doesn't have the ability to get a familiar (Sacrificing it for eidetic) - would that be "zero" levels allowing familiar, meaning it would not add to companion level? Would this change if you took "obtain familiar?" It isn't a class feature, so I'm guessing not. Can this feat add the companion levels to the "familiar" abilities instead (it isn't technically a familiar)? My guess is that this one doesn't work in this case, but figured I'd throw it in to get people's thoughts.
I think that's it ... sorry for the long post (and semi-duplicative, with the sword of arcane order post - just seemed sufficiently different to justify a new post)
Thanks!
schreier