Is Quad-classed archer crazy?

[tieren]

I am playing a ranger now and want to build a multi-class character. I'd like to go with a more magical archer than I believe ranger is giving me straight, but still be the champion of the forest hunter type.

I've been going over all of the possibilities such as:
ranger 13/fighter 4/rogue 3
ranger 9/rogue 7/fighter 4
fighter(EK) 13/ranger 4/cleric(war) 3

Thinking about what I want to be able to do:
My party role (as I see it) is primarily to pick mobs off the tank from the rear. I have sharpshooter feat for firing into melee and I want some rogue levels to get the sneak attack damage since he (the tank) will generally be within melee range of my targets to let me get that bonus.

Magically I want to be able to keep up hunters mark as much as possible and then toss some non-concentration spells for fun. In particular I want to be able to cast conjure animals sometimes.

What I am now considering is a ranger 5/druid 5/rogue 7/fighter 3 build.

With ranger 5 I get my extra attack, archery style, colossus slayer, and 2nd level ranger spells.
With druid 5 (circle of the land - grasslands) I get more spells and slots (including invisibility, haste, and conjure animals)
With rogue 7 I get expertise, cunning action, sneak attack damage, and evasion and uncanny dodge
With fighter 3 I get defense style, action surge, and either BM manuevers (probably more practical) or EK shield spell and weapon bond (sounds more fun to me).

I like the feel of the combo of abilities, I don't think it is a MAD build, I'd have 20 dex and decent WIS and CON. I'd be a good archer, and in my opinion more magical than if I just went straight archer. I'm even toying with doing arcane trickster with the rogue levels which takes nothing away from what I want for the archery and adds some neat flavor. I know my INT is terrible but I looked at Arcane Trickster and EK both from the perspective of just not taking spells with attack rolls or saves. I assume most of my low level slots will go to shield spell (regret having to drop to non-metal armor but shield should compensate).

Like I said I think I like it but I would appreciate feedback from more experienced players. Am I likely to regret not going deep in any class?

[EvilAnagram]

Well, you're only going to get 3 Ability Score Increases, which sucks a bit since you won't be able to take any feats on account of having to pump your DEX and WIS. A Fighter Battle Master archer can deal about 68 (4d10+4d12+20) damage per turn at level 20 (it drops off after the seventh hit). You'll be able to deal around 56 on average. (Assuming Hunter's Mark, Hunter, and Battle Master, 1d10+1d8+5d6+5 and 1d10+2d8+1d6+5). A pure Ranger Hunter can deal 47 (4d10+1d8+20) damage to to up to 25 creatures per turn with Swift Quiver. So your single target damage goes up a bit at the expense of your multi-target damage.

But the stats all work together, and you'll be able to have fun, so go for it.

EDIT: I should point out that the real damage potential of an archer comes from being a Ranger and having the Bard cast Swift Quiver on you, the Druid cast Flame Arrow on you, and you cast Hunter's Mark. You make four attacks at 1d10+2d6+5 with one extra d8 thrown in there for 75 average damage. Flame Arrow runs out after 12 arrows, but it's just a level 1 slot.

[MrStabby]

Well it looks fun... but you want some thought about how you get to 20.

Personally I would take ranger to 5 then arcane trickster to 3. Take proficiency in stealth and perception to take the outdoorsy hunter feel a bit further. This gives you enough sneak attack to have you feel more than a ranger and takes you to six multiclass caster levels for spell slots. Add 5 druid then - you want conjure animals and you are relying on the other classes to give you some fun whilst you are on the way there (druid will give you more spells and more spell slots along the way - a lot of these actually scale pretty well). This gives you level 13 character, knowing level 3 spells and with spell slots of a level 11 caster. You have two attacks and a lot of potential bonus damage.

From there (with your build) I would take your fighter - battlemaster. Yet more features and damage; your class flavour is pretty fixed by then but it adds some good abilities. Finish off with the last two levels of rogue.

Be aware that you may need a great starting DEX as you will not be getting many ASIs along the way.


I think it is a fun character, maybe not the best but it has some good tricks (although personally given everything else I wouldn't use colossus slayer).

[Yrnes]

I am playing a ranger now and want to build a multi-class character. I'd like to go with a more magical archer than I believe ranger is giving me straight, but still be the champion of the forest hunter type.

...

What I am now considering is a ranger 5/druid 5/rogue 7/fighter 3 build.

Just out of curiosity, how frequently do your games actually reach 20th level? Are you starting at level 1? I don't think I've ever seen a campaign go 1 - 20, which makes planning for 20 levels moot. Awesome if yours do though!

[Millface]

Yeah, Quad class is a little crazy.

If you want a magical Archer personally I just like Lore Bard/Ranger or even Lore Bard/Fighter but you have ranger already so we'll stick to that.

Ranger to 5 for Archery Style/Extra Attack/Colossus Slayer/Hunter's Mark. @4 if your dex is 18 or higher take sharpshooter, if not take +2 Dex.

You still get Swift Quiver from magical secrets @14 and you can use it more often. Plus inspiration and cutting words.

With Mark + Slayer + Swift Quiver + Elemental Weapon + Sharpshooter you're looking at 5d8+4d6+4d4+60 and with EW and Archery you're sharp shooting with only a total of -2 for +10 Damage with a vanilla bow in a round. Plus all the other useful things Bard's bring to the table, of which there is a significant amount.

Skills, Jack of all trades, and if you play to high levels in your campaign eventually up to 8th level bard spells @20, two 7th level spells from anywhere in the book @19. If nothing else those slots can be used for additional Swiftquivers/boosted Elemental Weapon, but your versatility is through the roof. You can cast, you can shoot, you can crow, you can fly, you can fight. You are the Pan.

[tieren]

I'm a variant human and already have sharp shooter so that mitigates the fewer ASi's a bit.

I agree horde breaker would have probably been a better choice than colossus slayer, but I don't want to ask for a retcon now, I'll just go with it.

I don't expect we will make it all the way to 20, so I am trying to look at the sweet spot being around levels 12-16. The progression suggested by MrStabby puts me in a pretty nice spot in that range.

[tieren]

Yeah, Quad class is a little crazy.

If you want a magical Archer personally I just like Lore Bard/Ranger or even Lore Bard/Fighter but you have ranger already so we'll stick to that.

Ranger to 5 for Archery Style/Extra Attack/Colossus Slayer/Hunter's Mark. @4 if your dex is 18 or higher take sharpshooter, if not take +2 Dex.

You still get Swift Quiver from magical secrets @14 and you can use it more often. Plus inspiration and cutting words.

With Mark + Slayer + Swift Quiver + Elemental Weapon + Sharpshooter you're looking at 5d8+4d6+4d4+60 and with EW and Archery you're sharp shooting with only a total of -2 for +10 Damage with a vanilla bow in a round. Plus all the other useful things Bard's bring to the table, of which there is a significant amount.

Skills, Jack of all trades, and if you play to high levels in your campaign eventually up to 8th level bard spells @20, two 7th level spells from anywhere in the book @19. If nothing else those slots can be used for additional Swiftquivers/boosted Elemental Weapon, but your versatility is through the roof. You can cast, you can shoot, you can crow, you can fly, you can fight. You are the Pan.

Unfortunately, charisma was a dump stat for me so I am limited to Multi-classing into Dex and Wis classes, but that concept sounds really cool.

[Millface]

Unfortunately, charisma was a dump stat for me so I am limited to Multi-classing into Dex and Wis classes, but that concept sounds really cool.

I was afraid of that, lol. Mr. Stabby is on point then. I don't think its the best possible Archer build, but it's certainly very good and the best for the cards you've been dealt so far.

[EvilAnagram]

Yeah, Quad class is a little crazy.

If you want a magical Archer personally I just like Lore Bard/Ranger or even Lore Bard/Fighter but you have ranger already so we'll stick to that.

Ranger to 5 for Archery Style/Extra Attack/Colossus Slayer/Hunter's Mark. @4 if your dex is 18 or higher take sharpshooter, if not take +2 Dex.

You still get Swift Quiver from magical secrets @14 and you can use it more often. Plus inspiration and cutting words.

With Mark + Slayer + Swift Quiver + Elemental Weapon + Sharpshooter you're looking at 5d8+4d6+4d4+60 and with EW and Archery you're sharp shooting with only a total of -2 for +10 Damage with a vanilla bow in a round. Plus all the other useful things Bard's bring to the table, of which there is a significant amount.

Skills, Jack of all trades, and if you play to high levels in your campaign eventually up to 8th level bard spells @20, two 7th level spells from anywhere in the book @19. If nothing else those slots can be used for additional Swiftquivers/boosted Elemental Weapon, but your versatility is through the roof. You can cast, you can shoot, you can crow, you can fly, you can fight. You are the Pan.

This build seems to rely on multiple concentration spells, which is impossible by RAW. Or am I misreading?

[ThermalSlapShot]

Damn, I thought this http://8bittheater.wikia.com/wiki/Generic_Half-Elven_Dual-Class_Ranger was going to be the primary focus of this thread...

Quad wielding longbows would be fun. Hell, if it can stump Sarda then it must be fun.

[Millface]

This build seems to rely on multiple concentration spells, which is impossible by RAW. Or am I misreading?

Oops, you're right.

I was just on the fly trying to think of how to make a Ranger, you know, decent. Good catch.

It seems weird but I have a few archer builds that I've gone over and think are viable, none of them have ranger levels.

[tieren]

I suppose if I weren't going to go quad class the closest variant would be ranger 5/druid 8/rogue 7, which would give me another level of druid spells (summoning pixies instead of wolves) but would cost me the fighter's extra fighting style, action surge, and BM maneuvers (which I like the idea of trick shots with the bow).

It doesn't seem as cool to me, but I am open to discussion on why focusing on 3 classes would be better.

I am not too concerned with the wildshape improvements. I would primarily use them for scouting or getting in better firing position rather than combat. There is something very appealing about scouting the enemy camp in the form of a deer, and if anyone decides its deer season popping back into a hunter and action surging 4 arrows at them.

[ThermalSlapShot]

I suppose if I weren't going to go quad class the closest variant would be ranger 5/druid 8/rogue 7, which would give me another level of druid spells (summoning pixies instead of wolves) but would cost me the fighter's extra fighting style, action surge, and BM maneuvers (which I like the idea of trick shots with the bow).

It doesn't seem as cool to me, but I am open to discussion on why focusing on 3 classes would be better.

I am not too concerned with the wildshape improvements. I would primarily use them for scouting or getting in better firing position rather than combat. There is something very appealing about scouting the enemy camp in the form of a deer, and if anyone decides its deer season popping back into a hunter and action surging 4 arrows at them.

Do you keep your weapon proficiencies while in animal form? I can't help but think Dex = 19 magic item + chimp/gorilla form would be hilarious for an Archer.

[Millface]

Do you keep your weapon proficiencies while in animal form? I can't help but think Dex = 19 magic item + chimp/gorilla form would be hilarious for an Archer.

From the PHB:

You retain the benefit o f any features from your class,
race, or other source and can use them if the new
form is physically capable o f doing so. However, you
can’t use any o f your special senses, such as darkvision,
unless your new form also has that sense.

So, it depends on whether or not weapon proficiencies are considered a class feature (I think so). Therefore, a gorilla by RAW should be able to fire a bow if you could. RAI though? I mean, you practice shooting a bow with hands your size, I would think that a gorilla's hands would make the process much, much different.

Chimp might just work by RAW and make sense though.

[ThermalSlapShot]

From the PHB:

You retain the benefit o f any features from your class,
race, or other source and can use them if the new
form is physically capable o f doing so. However, you
can’t use any o f your special senses, such as darkvision,
unless your new form also has that sense.

So, it depends on whether or not weapon proficiencies are considered a class feature (I think so). Therefore, a gorilla by RAW should be able to fire a bow if you could. RAI though? I mean, you practice shooting a bow with hands your size, I would think that a gorilla's hands would make the process much, much different.

Chimp might just work by RAW and make sense though.

If size mattered then the enlarged spell would suuuck. Weapon proficiency is weapon proficiency no matter how big you get, with the right brain a gorilla could totally use a lomgbow.

Gorilla + Magic Item Dex 19 + Bow Attacks

Druid/Rogue/Ranger

Now that I think about it..

If beast Master Ranger didn't suck I would say to put on a tie when you wildshape and to get a chimp side kick with a red hat...

I now want to make a Druid who wildshaoes I to a gorilla and summons a chimp and give the spell a self imposed material component of *barrel*.

I need to figure out how to make Donkey and Diddy Kong in 5e.

[EvilAnagram]

Oops, you're right.

I was just on the fly trying to think of how to make a Ranger, you know, decent. Good catch.

It seems weird but I have a few archer builds that I've gone over and think are viable, none of them have ranger levels.

At max level, the basic Ranger, without any features from the paths, can deal the same average damage per turn as a Fighter archer thanks to Swift Quiver (4d10+20). Fighters can spike with Action Surge, and Battle Masters and Champions can pile on the damage with their features, but Fighters are better than anyone at piling on damage. The BM damage in particular is limited, though.

A Hunter, on the other hand, can consistently average 4d10+1d8+25 against his favored enemy, and he can deal that damage against several enemies at once. He can't spike as well as the Fighter, not by a long shot, but he can consistently deal solid damage to several enemies with Volley, and his spells aren't bad for distributed damage.

[Millface]

At max level, the basic Ranger, without any features from the paths, can deal the same average damage per turn as a Fighter archer thanks to Swift Quiver (4d10+20). Fighters can spike with Action Surge, and Battle Masters and Champions can pile on the damage with their features, but Fighters are better than anyone at piling on damage. The BM damage in particular is limited, though.

A Hunter, on the other hand, can consistently average 4d10+1d8+25 against his favored enemy, and he can deal that damage against several enemies at once. He can't spike as well as the Fighter, not by a long shot, but he can consistently deal solid damage to several enemies with Volley, and his spells aren't bad for distributed damage.

The difference is that at max level the ranger can only match the fighter 2 minutes a day. That's not matching. That's struggling to keep up some of the time.

Where are the D10s coming from? Bows are D8?

2 minutes a day isn't consistent. Having 4 attacks by default is consistent.

The Valor Bard can Swift Quiver as well, and at level 9, not 17, and at max level can do it 3 times per day, more if you use higher level slots for more Swift Quivers. They sacrifice Colossus slayer/being able to hit everything in a radius for more minutes of viability with SQ, more skills, support in the form of inspiration, and the ability to take things like Simulacrum and Wish.

A fighter gets more time @4 attacks, and BM not only adds d10s to damage but can disarm or trip you from range while still dealing that damage.

Assassin Rogues can dual crossbow, if any melee is within 5 feet of their target they automatically get their 10d6 sneak on the first attack. They should almost always be getting that, so 12d6+10 per round. It's easier to surprise from range by far, so usually it'll be 24d6+10 for the first round.

Straight class the way I see it Ranger is the worst archer out of the viable classes for being an archer. Multiclassed Fighter/Assassin and Bard/Fighter pull ahead even more from what the Ranger/X can put together.

[Person_Man]

For your build goal, it seems like Valor Bard is the way to go. That gives you Extra Attack and access to any of the spells you want (although they can cherry pick fewer spells then the Lore Bard, they still get some, and the Bard's spell list is pretty awesome as-is), without having to multi-class. The bonuses you lose from Fighting Style or Colossus Slayer or whatever are gained back from more Ability Score Increases, Feats, and more frequent use of spells. And if your concern is a lack of nova damage (Action Surge or Assassinate), you do get a few mid-high level spell options for that as well.

[tieren]

If size mattered then the enlarged spell would suuuck. Weapon proficiency is weapon proficiency no matter how big you get, with the right brain a gorilla could totally use a lomgbow.

Gorilla + Magic Item Dex 19 + Bow Attacks

Druid/Rogue/Ranger

Now that I think about it..

If beast Master Ranger didn't suck I would say to put on a tie when you wildshape and to get a chimp side kick with a red hat...

I now want to make a Druid who wildshaoes I to a gorilla and summons a chimp and give the spell a self imposed material component of *barrel*.

I need to figure out how to make Donkey and Diddy Kong in 5e.

I like where your head is at!

It got me thinking about if a gorilla wildshaped druid could ride a horse while dual wielding hand crossbows like the bad guy in the planet of the apes movies with the assault rifles.

[tieren]

For your build goal, it seems like Valor Bard is the way to go. That gives you Extra Attack and access to any of the spells you want (although they can cherry pick fewer spells then the Lore Bard, they still get some, and the Bard's spell list is pretty awesome as-is), without having to multi-class. The bonuses you lose from Fighting Style or Colossus Slayer or whatever are gained back from more Ability Score Increases, Feats, and more frequent use of spells. And if your concern is a lack of nova damage (Action Surge or Assassinate), you do get a few mid-high level spell options for that as well.

I agree that if I had had presence of forethought from the beginning the bard is a great way to get an arcane archer. Unfortunately I came into this game to just sit in one night when a regular player was missing and I threw a ranger together pretty quickly without a lot of system knowledge to get going. I was later asked to become a regular player and I want to grow from what I started rather than trying to min/max a new character now.

From where I am and the vision I have for the character I really think this will be cool. I am just a little worried I'd be gimping myself in some way unclear to me now by going 4 classes. However it looks like thats not a huge concern and fun > mechanics imo.

[ThermalSlapShot]

I like where your head is at!

It got me thinking about if a gorilla wildshaped druid could ride a horse while dual wielding hand crossbows like the bad guy in the planet of the apes movies with the assault rifles.

You need DM to OK the dual crossbow + crossbow mastery trick to work (but is balanced, use your gorilla feet to reload). Or carry a ton of hand crossbows on your horse...

A lot of hand crossbows.

I need to make a gorilla race. Maybe make them a race of hyper intelligent gorillas (they have average intelligence instead of animal intelligence) that were in the past an experiment of the psionic squid things.

[EvilAnagram]

The difference is that at max level the ranger can only match the fighter 2 minutes a day. That's not matching. That's struggling to keep up some of the time.
That's essentially two combat encounters.


Where are the D10s coming from? Bows are D8?
Heavy crossbows.


2 minutes a day isn't consistent. Having 4 attacks by default is consistent.
He can meet or even surpass a Fighter for two entire combat encounters, then his damage falls to 38 average (with Hunter's Mark), which he can throw at several enemies at once. His total damage output can easily outperform a Fighter, just not against a single creature.


The Valor Bard can Swift Quiver as well, and at level 9, not 17, and at max level can do it 3 times per day, more if you use higher level slots for more Swift Quivers.
That is not terribly better than a Ranger. In fact, since they can't make their attacks against multiple creatures, they can't reach the same damage. If there's a Bard with Swift Quiver in the same party as a Ranger, he's better off casting it on the Ranger.


Assassin Rogues can dual crossbow, if any melee is within 5 feet of their target they automatically get their 10d6 sneak on the first attack. They should almost always be getting that, so 12d6+10 per round. It's easier to surprise from range by far, so usually it'll be 24d6+10 for the first round.
Both Hunter and Beast Master can outperform the Assassin Rogue after the first round.


Straight class the way I see it Ranger is the worst archer out of the viable classes for being an archer. Multiclassed Fighter/Assassin and Bard/Fighter pull ahead even more from what the Ranger/X can put together.
5 levels of Ranger and 7 levels of Rogue can outperform any other combination at level 12, which is both a common stopping point for campaigns and the point at which the damage curve starts shifting tremendously. As for straight classes, you severely underestimate Beast Masters and Volley and their damage potential.

[Millface]

That's essentially two combat encounters.


Heavy crossbows.


He can meet or even surpass a Fighter for two entire combat encounters, then his damage falls to 38 average (with Hunter's Mark), which he can throw at several enemies at once. His total damage output can easily outperform a Fighter, just not against a single creature.


That is not terribly better than a Ranger. In fact, since they can't make their attacks against multiple creatures, they can't reach the same damage. If there's a Bard with Swift Quiver in the same party as a Ranger, he's better off casting it on the Ranger.


Both Hunter and Beast Master can outperform the Assassin Rogue after the first round.


5 levels of Ranger and 7 levels of Rogue can outperform any other combination at level 12, which is both a common stopping point for campaigns and the point at which the damage curve starts shifting tremendously. As for straight classes, you severely underestimate Beast Masters and Volley and their damage potential.


This is all basing on the assumption that you're only going to have 2 combat encounters in an entire day. That's just not true. The average damage after that only applies to 4 creatures with hunter's mark, not 4 encounters. The ability to do 1d10+5 to 10 things is kinda cool. But the Bard build can easily surpass this damage with spells.

Single target after the 2 encounters of SQ the fighter is doing 4d10+20 (40) (more with sup dice) and controlling the field with disarms and trips while the ranger is doing 2d10+1d8+2d6+10 (30). I'm not sure where 38 is coming from. Once you're out of Hunter's Marks if there are encounters left you fall behind even harder. 2d10+1d8+10 (24) while the fighter is still pumping out almost double that. The fighter gets 8D10+40 (80) twice per short rest, while short rests don't benefit the Ranger much at all. The fighter also has a higher Stat Block and more feats to choose from for a variety of extra offense/defense that the ranger isn't going to have access to. Hard to quantify concretely, but worth mentioning nonetheless.

Rogue is sitting on 12d6+10 Per Round (46) all the time.

Volley is a 1d10+5 10 ft. Radius AoE that must be rolled for on each target. I'm sorry, that's just not that good. A saved or resisted fireball is better.

Beast Master can be done up to be fairly potent single target, I'll give you that, with SQ it's like 3d10+2d8+31 (62) Then with HM 1d10+2d8+3d6+21 (53) and an 80 HP, barded beast sitting on like 22 AC.

If we're counting Beasts in Archer Builds though we can count Spells, and the Bard has a Simulacrum of himself which is going to have more HP than the beast and deal similar damage, on top of their ability to inspire each other and much wider spell pool.

I'm glad that you have found ways to make ranger potent, definitely viable, but I just don't see them being the best. I'd rank it, after taking your compelling arguments into account, Valor Bard>BM>Fighter>Rogue>Hunter.

If you get long rests every two encounters for some reason the Hunter goes up to about even with the fighter depending on how much HP everything has. Fewer combat rounds has the fighter up because of AS, more has the Hunter up. But this shouldn't really be a thing.

[coredump]

For those comparing... I suggest comparing a full day.

The one I have seen used is 7 encounters, 3 rounds each, 2 short rests. For Level 20, against a 20 AC is about right.
How much damage can your build do over that time?





to OP: From that I have seen, Bards make mediocre archers. yeah they can get Swift Quiver, which means they can be a decent archer a couple of times a day....

As for your Quad archer... it is close to my favorite build Ranger5/Rogue11/Fighter4. I have not looked at swapping Rogue levels for Druid levels..... but I am looking more for an archer than an arcane archer. Since you are mostly self-buffing, you don't need MAD, just 20 Dex and 13 Wis. Watch your class level order so you can get that Dex boosted.

[Millface]

To get back on topic... before 17 crossbow expert and dual hand crossbows is definitely the way to go.

Starting at lvl 5 ranger it really starts abusing Hunter's Mark in a big way. 6d6+1d8+15 at level 5 is pretty tasty.

[tieren]

to OP:

As for your Quad archer... it is close to my favorite build Ranger5/Rogue11/Fighter4. I have not looked at swapping Rogue levels for Druid levels..... but I am looking more for an archer than an arcane archer. Since you are mostly self-buffing, you don't need MAD, just 20 Dex and 13 Wis. Watch your class level order so you can get that Dex boosted.

I was looking at ranger/rogue/fighter in a very martial way, but the more I thought about the fun things I enjoy doing it came down to more casting and conjuring so the arcane archer started to take root.

I am thinking about going arcane trickster with the rogue levels since I am mainly after sneak attack and not assassinate, and with the expertise bits and mage hand ledgermain I can try to disarm traps and stuff from a distance and not blow myself up. Maybe I can even illusion up some stuff to hide behind or something if necessary.

[ThermalSlapShot]

If you don't want to go Moon Druid... Then why don't you go Nature Cleric?

Spiritual Weapon doesn't take concentration.

[EvilAnagram]

Cleric and Land Druid are both excellent for increasing your spells. The bonus attack is made much more important with Crossbow Expert.

[ThermalSlapShot]

Cleric and Land Druid are both excellent for increasing your spells. The bonus attack is made much more important with Crossbow Expert.

Actually...

Crossbows expert BA: 1d6+Dex piercing damage

Spiritual Weapon: BA: xd8 + Wis force damage

Take into account that this build won't have a lot of Feat/asi and that spiritual weapon scales when you need it to... Spiritual Weapon wins.

The no disadvantage is nice but if you are in melee then you are archering wrong :smallbiggrin:

Though for an Archer I prefer War domain, they get Magic Weapon as a 2nd level domain spell.

[coredump]

I was looking at ranger/rogue/fighter in a very martial way, but the more I thought about the fun things I enjoy doing it came down to more casting and conjuring so the arcane archer started to take root.

I am thinking about going arcane trickster with the rogue levels since I am mainly after sneak attack and not assassinate, and with the expertise bits and mage hand ledgermain I can try to disarm traps and stuff from a distance and not blow myself up. Maybe I can even illusion up some stuff to hide behind or something if necessary.
Oh I get that, it sounds kind of fun. We just had slightly different concepts. I wanted a laid back guy that could sneak through the woods and put a hurt on from a distance. Didn't do a lot else, but did that very well. But having those spells at hand could be a lot of fun.

My only suggestion is to look at what spells you think you might cast, and see how many are concentration. Ex. Hunter's Mark and Faerie Fire.... or conjuring....

[tieren]

If you don't want to go Moon Druid... Then why don't you go Nature Cleric?

Spiritual Weapon doesn't take concentration.

I looked at that, particularly as a war cleric, the war priest feature gives extra attacks and the channel divinity is a boost to accuracy so it looked like it fit. Ultimately for me it was the spell list. I want the conjure animals to be closer to what a straight ranger would be doing sometimes, and the grasslands land druid comes with invisibility and haste which can also help out the archer build at times.

I am very cognizant of the concentration issues and how that interacts with keeping hunters mark up. Luckily hunters mark itself is a bonus action spell so if I do drop it to cast something else I can slip back into without too much hassle, particularly since I'll have a lot more slots than a typical ranger.

Generally I have a lot to do with my bonus action now (ranger spells, moving hunters mark, cunning action, etc...). I don't think I'll be twiddling my thumbs wishing I had spiritual weapon running most of the time.

[Citan]

I am playing a ranger now and want to build a multi-class character. I'd like to go with a more magical archer than I believe ranger is giving me straight, but still be the champion of the forest hunter type.
(...)
Thinking about what I want to be able to do:
My party role (as I see it) is primarily to pick mobs off the tank from the rear. I have sharpshooter feat for firing into melee and I want some rogue levels to get the sneak attack damage since he (the tank) will generally be within melee range of my targets to let me get that bonus.
Magically I want to be able to keep up hunters mark as much as possible and then toss some non-concentration spells for fun. In particular I want to be able to cast conjure animals sometimes.
(...)
What I am now considering is a ranger 5/druid 5/rogue 7/fighter 3 build.
(...)

Well, for your playstyle some CHA+DEX based multiclass would have fared better and simpler: Like Ranger 11 (Volley) / Bard 6 / either Rogue (Expertise/Cunning Action/archetype) or Devotion Paladin 3 (+CHA to attack rolls -especially good with SharpShooter-, some spells and additional Fighting Style for protection -Defense- or Movement -Mariner-).
Note on that thought that the nova damage that suggested MillFace wouldn't work as solo since most spells require Concentration (and as a team we can imagine everything). However, what would work as dualclass Bard / Ranger would be lvl 5 Bestow Curse (no concentration) before unleashing Hunter's Mark (or Elemental Weapon from Magic Secrets, or Swift Quiver etc).
End of the CHA options parenthese since you cannot multiclass into. :)

On your suggested build (by the way Sharpshooter feat does NOT cover close-range bow attack, it's the Crossbow Expert feat that does it :)).


Your choice seems to fit with the concept although you'll have very few spell slots to play with (unless you also go EK + AT). With that said this seems fun, while a bit hard to level.
I approve of MrStabby recommendations except on the second part: I'd say take Rogue if you feel a bit lacking on damage, otherwise go Druid to get interesting possibilities for RP.

My other remarks would be...
- Ranger 5 brings extra attack and some spell slots, but only 2 lvl2 spells (1 retrain from the ones you knew already + one you can learn when gaining the level): considering your choice of Land Druid, many interesting spells in Ranger's list will already be covered by Druid: basically only "exclusives" are Cordon of Arrows and Silence. So, if you plan on going Eldricht Knight for wizard spells and weapon bond, I'd suggest considering Fighter 5 instead. You'll have less spell slot (you lose the sole 4th lvl slot) but if you see some spells you'd like to have it seems a fair tradeoff.
Evidently, if you want to take Battlemaster archetype stick with your initial plan. :)

- If BattleMaster or WeaponBond are interesting to you but not strictly required for your fluff, you may consider dropping one level to go Rogue 8 and get another ASI/Feat. Although BattleMaster is really good for your build (if only for Goading Attack to protect your melee fighters from afar).

- On that Manoeuvers topic, Goading Attack is a no-brainer(protect allies), then you'd want Evasive Footwork or Parry for self-protection (although Parry is a bit redondant with Rogue ability), Precision Attack for when it's crucial to hit, or another melee helper: Trip Attack is good to give advantage to allies, but makes difficult for you to hit afterwards. Commander's Strike seems the best for you with a Paladin in team (Smite ;)).

- Since you'll be limited to Two attacks without spells, and will have already Sneak Attack for single-target, I'd suggest taking Horde Breaker instead of Colossus. It's a "free" additional attack (so you keep your bonus action for something else), so potentially better damage per round than a plain 1d6 (example weapon buffs such as Flame Arrows, Magic/Elemental Weapon). And you should have many occasions to use it normally.

- Unless I'm mistaken, you'll have no way to get an attack as a bonus action by yourself. I don't see that as a problem though since you'll already have plenty to do (Dash/Disengage/Mage Hand/ Manoeuvers or Bonded Weapon / moving Mark). If you weren't already quad-classed and if you had like 18 or 20 WIS I could have proposed the War Cleric ^^. But that's really a joke. :)

[Yagyujubei]

im actually liking grassland druid 8, ranger 5, and rogue 2 (and the rest of your levels in rogue if you go higher)

it creates a pretty interesting mix of spell casting, ranged dps, and skill utility all with the bonus of substantial melee and scout potential through wildhsape.

plus it FEELS super one with nature rangery to me.

EDIT: oh and it maintains decent ASI support...the other option would be ranger 5, druid 5, rogue 10 that gets you an extra asi and other rogue goodies like evasion and uncanny dodge but sacrifices a spellcasting..

[tieren]

On your suggested build (by the way Sharpshooter feat does NOT cover close-range bow attack, it's the Crossbow Expert feat that does it :)).



Actually what I meant is that my DM imposes disadvantage on any ranged character firing at a target that is involved in melee combat, presumably because the combatants obscure one another. With sharpshooter I disregard that condition and can shoot mobs in melee with my tank without disadvantages. I realize I can't shoot mobs in melee with me, but with a cunning action disengage I shouldn't have to.

[Yagyujubei]

Actually what I meant is that my DM imposes disadvantage on any ranged character firing at a target that is involved in melee combat, presumably because the combatants obscure one another. With sharpshooter I disregard that condition and can shoot mobs in melee with my tank without disadvantages. I realize I can't shoot mobs in melee with me, but with a cunning action disengage I shouldn't have to.

holy lord why would anyone ever play a ranged character then, that's such a huge disadvantage...

[Citan]

Actually what I meant is that my DM imposes disadvantage on any ranged character firing at a target that is involved in melee combat, presumably because the combatants obscure one another. With sharpshooter I disregard that condition and can shoot mobs in melee with my tank without disadvantages. I realize I can't shoot mobs in melee with me, but with a cunning action disengage I shouldn't have to.
I totally agree with your last sentence, situations where you're engaged with someone at close range should be very rares.
With that said your DM seems very strict, unless he gives disadvantage only if you have a creature "in front" of the one you are targeting (although the official rules treat this case as half-cover only so +2 AC, so your DM is already stricter than official rules).



This is all basing on the assumption that you're only going to have 2 combat encounters in an entire day. That's just not true. The average damage after that only applies to 4 creatures with hunter's mark, not 4 encounters. The ability to do 1d10+5 to 10 things is kinda cool. But the Bard build can easily surpass this damage with spells.
(... CUT BECAUSE TOO LONG ;))

Volley is a 1d10+5 10 ft. Radius AoE that must be rolled for on each target. I'm sorry, that's just not that good. A saved or resisted fireball is better.

If we're counting Beasts in Archer Builds though we can count Spells, and the Bard has a Simulacrum of himself which is going to have more HP than the beast and deal similar damage, on top of their ability to inspire each other and much wider spell pool.

I'm glad that you have found ways to make ranger potent, definitely viable, but I just don't see them being the best. I'd rank it, after taking your compelling arguments into account, Valor Bard>BM>Fighter>Rogue>Hunter.

If you get long rests every two encounters for some reason the Hunter goes up to about even with the fighter depending on how much HP everything has. Fewer combat rounds has the fighter up because of AS, more has the Hunter up. But this shouldn't really be a thing.
Ok, sooo, your post enticed me to join the fray. :)
First off, we're talking about the best ranged player in most campaigns. Know that Simulacrum may or not be banned from campaigns by the DM. It's a nice trick though since you basically doubles your damage (you just made me severely consider dropping my multiclass build to go straight Bard ^^).

Beyond this particular trick, let's take direct damage spells out of the equation (we're discussing ranged physical attacks capabilities here).
You severely underestimate some multiclass builds which rely on Volley: 10 feet RADIUS attacks EVERY TURN is HUGE.
It will be frequent to get at least 3 targets, and you still have the choice to go Extra Attack instead to focus on one/two enemies.
With Colossus Slayer being either a light addition or a huge added value (I personally rule it as applying once on each creature hit by Volley since it's "When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, the creature takes an extra 1d8 damage if it’s below its hit point maximum. You can deal this extra damage only once per turn." Different from Rogue's SA which starts by specifying Once on your turn, to One creature... Didn't find confirmation this is RAW or RAI though.).

So your point is: Volley is not good because too hard to hit? Not good because not enough damage?

Welcome my Singer of Nature's Wrath (tm ^^).
Ranger 11 (Hunter) / Bard 6 (Lore) / Paladin 3 (Oath of Devotion).
WIS 13 (multiclass requirement), DEX 20, CHA 20 (or 18 worst case).
You now have +4 (or +5) PER SHORT REST on your attack rolls. +2 from Archery. +5 from DEX, + proficiency.
So endgame with maxed stats means +6+5+2+5 = +18 to hit for 10 turns. Not so bad huh?

Then comes damage: drop the Hunter's Mark. Better cast Elemental Weapon as a 7th lvl spell (you have spell slots for a lvl16 spellcaster) for +3d6 damage roll per arrow AND additional +3 to hit.
Congrats, you can now rain death on any creature in a 10feet radius with +21 to hit and weapon dice + 3d6 of THE ELEMENT OF YOUR CHOICE(meaning magical AND always the right element for the right enemy).
Not taking into account Colossus Slayer if you follow the "lax" ruling.
Not taking into account the obvious Sharpshooter feat with +10 damage (since -5 to hit are more than offset by the bonus).
Not taking into account any other crafty feat/spell/ability combination that I didn't think of.
So you're now a great mob cleaner.
Alternative one-shot: cast Hail of Thorns at a high level an start your Volley with the center enemy. :)

Feeling you're lacking a bit of punch for a single enemy? No problem.
Ask someone to cast an elemental spell on you (or, worst case, cast a cantrip on yourself) and use your reaction to cast Absorb Elements on the highest available level (8th if you still have all slots).
Congrats! Your next attack will hit for additional 8d6 ELEMENTAL DAMAGE. On top of what you had already (since Absorb Elements doesn't require concentration).

"Okay, okay, but I don't feel very secure".
Well: Paladin Fighting Style brings you Mariner (+1 AC, swimming/climbing speed) for added mobility. Escape the Horde helps further avoiding enemies.
Worst case of, Command spell will take care of an enemy. Or cast Shield of Faith to help and Smite your way out with a rapier (or simply pin their Face with Crossbow Expert feat), or even Sanctuary if there is no escape (or Conjure a pack of Swarm to divert enemies).

So, you have a ranged character who is OUTSTANDING against crowd and very nice against singles for a few encounters, then a pretty potent and stable warrior for the long runs: versatile, mobile, and correct defense (with spells to enhance if needed).
Which is especially good considering that "normally" you get 4 to 8 encounters per long rest...
And that's obviously as a lone wolf, because in a party with several spellcasters... ;)

Only drawback will be debilitating spells and being encircled for good. (Starting Paladin for WIS proficiency could be nice since low stat, but Ranger feels more natural, and since being always far from combat most harmful spells will be long-range so most of all DEX-save).

TL;DR Ranger as pure Hunter is indeed a bit lacking in pure offensive potency, but in a good party or as a well-designed multiclass the Volley ability can outshine most other builds. :)
Try out the Hunter Ranger 11 / Lore Bard 6 / Devotion Paladin 3 and see for yourself!

[djreynolds]

I think you have cut offs.
Ranger 11 for volley or fighter 11 for three attacks. Or ranger 2 or fighter 1 for archery. Now you also want haste. I think valor bard should be the majority of the build, he can steal spells. Valor bard, eldritch knight, assassin, no ranger.

[Citan]

I think you have cut offs.
Ranger 11 for volley or fighter 11 for three attacks. Or ranger 2 or fighter 1 for archery. Now you also want haste. I think valor bard should be the majority of the build, he can steal spells. Valor bard, eldritch knight, assassin, no ranger.
OP has already a "living" character with CHA as a dump stat so he cannot follow any CHA-based multiclass build suggestion. :)

Also note that Ranger has potentially three attacks every turn as soon as lvl 5 with Horde Breaker. Not as good as Fighter though since it's on two enemies. But for heavy multiclass it's good to keep in mind.

[djreynolds]

OP has already a "living" character with CHA as a dump stat so he cannot follow any CHA-based multiclass build suggestion. :)

Also note that Ranger has potentially three attacks every turn as soon as lvl 5 with Horde Breaker. Not as good as Fighter though since it's on two enemies. But for heavy multiclass it's good to keep in mind.

Then ranger 11 hunter, fighter 3 for action surge, defensive style, battle master for precision, and trip and parry and 6 assassin. Pretty nasty Archer with 4 expertise in skills.

[Citan]

Then ranger 11 hunter, fighter 3 for action surge, defensive style, battle master for precision, and trip and parry and 6 assassin. Pretty nasty Archer with 4 expertise in skills.
Doesn't fill the requirements of OP who also wanted to cast some more spells notably Conjure Animals. :)
Otherwise nice build indeed considering the stat requirements.:smallcool:

[tieren]

So I was looking at the actual spell lists and seeing what could work with what...

As an arcane trickster I like sleep and mirror image, both of which I was surprised to learn were not concentration so could combo well with hunters mark or one of the conjurations. But would need rogue at least 7 to get 2nd level spells.

And speaking of conjurations I love the druid fourth level spells, minor elementals, woodland beings, giant insects, polymorph, wall of fire, etc... But would need druid at least 7 for fourth level spells.

So my build ideas are now focusing in on:
ranger 5/rogue 7/druid 5/fighter 3
ranger 5/druid 8/rogue 3/fighter 4
ranger 5/druid 8/rogue 7

I really am wrestling with whether to hold onto the fighter levels or not.

[djreynolds]

So I was looking at the actual spell lists and seeing what could work with what...

As an arcane trickster I like sleep and mirror image, both of which I was surprised to learn were not concentration so could combo well with hunters mark or one of the conjurations. But would need rogue at least 7 to get 2nd level spells.

And speaking of conjurations I love the druid fourth level spells, minor elementals, woodland beings, giant insects, polymorph, wall of fire, etc... But would need druid at least 7 for fourth level spells.

So my build ideas are now focusing in on:
ranger 5/rogue 7/druid 5/fighter 3
ranger 5/druid 8/rogue 3/fighter 4
ranger 5/druid 8/rogue 7

I really am wrestling with whether to hold onto the fighter levels or not.

Question, can a nature cleric or bard, stealing spells from another class do that, conjure animals? I only ask because druid leads, IMO, to have to included shapeshifting element. That said becoming a bird to get to a nice sniper's pearch could be worth it. If it's legal. Or hiding in plain sight as a animal only to transform into a ranger assassin, could lead to some nice advantageous situations.

[coredump]

So I was looking at the actual spell lists and seeing what could work with what...

As an arcane trickster I like sleep and mirror image, both of which I was surprised to learn were not concentration so could combo well with hunters mark or one of the conjurations. But would need rogue at least 7 to get 2nd level spells.

And speaking of conjurations I love the druid fourth level spells, minor elementals, woodland beings, giant insects, polymorph, wall of fire, etc... But would need druid at least 7 for fourth level spells.

So my build ideas are now focusing in on:
ranger 5/rogue 7/druid 5/fighter 3
ranger 5/druid 8/rogue 3/fighter 4
ranger 5/druid 8/rogue 7

I really am wrestling with whether to hold onto the fighter levels or not.

By the time you can get Sleep, it isn't worth it. 5D8 at level >7 often doesn't even get one bad guy.

I really liked fighter for my archer build....but with your casting build.... maybe not. You also need to factor in the order you are taking levels.

[Citan]

So I was looking at the actual spell lists and seeing what could work with what...

As an arcane trickster I like sleep and mirror image, both of which I was surprised to learn were not concentration so could combo well with hunters mark or one of the conjurations. But would need rogue at least 7 to get 2nd level spells.

And speaking of conjurations I love the druid fourth level spells, minor elementals, woodland beings, giant insects, polymorph, wall of fire, etc... But would need druid at least 7 for fourth level spells.

So my build ideas are now focusing in on:
ranger 5/rogue 7/druid 5/fighter 3
ranger 5/druid 8/rogue 3/fighter 4
ranger 5/druid 8/rogue 7

I really am wrestling with whether to hold onto the fighter levels or not.
Hi again! :)
I agree with previous post on Sleep, you'll have probably better things to do with your slots when you can get it. Although it still may be good.

Also, I don't understand why you say Sleep or Mirror Image combo well... Sleep will cease effect on any hit, and unconscious status provide autocrit only at 5 feet (so melee fighters mainly).
Since you plan on playing a ranged Rogue (unless I'm mistaken), it's more a drawback for you than anything else.
Mirror Image is nice, but again, as a ranged character, you're not supposed to get targeted so much anyways (could be nice to brush off ranged attacks and spells though, tu supplement Rogue abilities).

I'd say your choice really depends on what you prefer...
- Single target damage potency >> Rogue 7 is a given.
- Tactical abilities >> Fighter 3 Battlemaster is great.
- Magical power >> Druid FTW.
- You're really keen on having Horde Breaker from Ranger or not.

Sooo, again, my suggestions:
- Battlemaster is far more interesting for you than EK (for a ranger, bonded weapon is essentially for fluff). Either go BM or drop Fighter entirely.
- if you go BM, be BM 5 / Hunter 3 instead of Hunter 5 / BM 3: you lose only 2 situational spells and 1 character level of spell slots.
- If you wanted to take Colossus Slayer as a Hunter, go BM 6 / Ranger 2 instead: you trade 1d6/turn for additional ASI/Feat.
- As for Druid / Rogue: If you're sure you want Evasion and +1d6 put the 7 in Rogue and 5 in Druid. Otherwise go Druid 7 / Rogue 5.

I'd personally go BM 6 / Hunter 2 (focus on ASI) / Druid 7 / Rogue 5 (because I love spellcasting and manoeuvers gives nice tactics while keeping bonus action / concentration free).

If you drop Fighter entirely, your Ranger 5 / Druid 8 / Rogue 7 seems the best shot to check every item from your wishlist.:smallsmile:

[tieren]

Hi again! :)


Also, I don't understand why you say Sleep or Mirror Image combo well... Sleep will cease effect on any hit, and unconscious status provide autocrit only at 5 feet (so melee fighters mainly).
Since you plan on playing a ranged Rogue (unless I'm mistaken), it's more a drawback for you than anything else.
Mirror Image is nice, but again, as a ranged character, you're not supposed to get targeted so much anyways (could be nice to brush off ranged attacks and spells though, tu supplement Rogue abilities).


I'd personally go BM 6 / Hunter 2 (focus on ASI) / Druid 7 / Rogue 5 (because I love spellcasting and manoeuvers gives nice tactics while keeping bonus action / concentration free).

If you drop Fighter entirely, your Ranger 5 / Druid 8 / Rogue 7 seems the best shot to check every item from your wishlist.:smallsmile:

I meant they can be cast while I am concentrating on hunters mark, which should almost always be up.

I was picturing sleeping an enemy that got past the tank but I'll go read it again.

Mirror image would be to avoid taking damage to avoid breaking concentration, particularly with a cool summons spell running.

[Citan]

I meant they can be cast while I am concentrating on hunters mark, which should almost always be up.

I was picturing sleeping an enemy that got past the tank but I'll go read it again.

Mirror image would be to avoid taking damage to avoid breaking concentration, particularly with a cool summons spell running.
Ok for Mirror Image (after all, being a non-concentration makes it already a nice option to consider ^^).

Sleep is... Well, I love the concept for crowd control as well as peaceful RP options ("sleep well, dear guard, I'll take care of the safe for you ^^"). Problem is that it's (imo) very hard to handle for at least two reasons:
- very dependent on target HP (your higher lvl spell slot will maybe suffice for a lone creature, but probably not full-life 3 or more creatures of CR corresponding to your level so you'll have to weaken them first, which is not easy to do without fight ;)).
- no control on order of targeting when several creatures are hit (unless you had a way to determine precisely current HP of creatures, which seems difficult to me).
- also, it makes no difference between allies/enemies XD.

So, Sleep shines basically...
- To resolve peacefully a conflict with one enemy, IF you know its HP is low enough AND you can aim a zone in wich it's the only creature.
- To divide the battlefront by "taking out" a few low-HP enemies for a while...
- To provide a faster and cleaner way to end a fight while preserving enemies integrity (for interrogation, because you want to befriend their faction, etc).
- To troll your allies in a subtle -or not- way ("aaaw, I'm sorry I miscalculated the range... Ah, well. Apart from your missing arm it seems you enjoyed your sleep XD").
- To sleep soooo much better during your long rest (and thus not perceiving enemies nearing ^^).

I may have "frightened" you with all this but in spite of these faults, Sleep can still have many occasions to shine (especially if your DM plots some quests in which violence/murder are frowned upon or a blatant bad solution). Just don't expect it to be a "quiet nuke" like some people may have told you. :)

[djreynolds]

I am playing a ranger now and want to build a multi-class character. I'd like to go with a more magical archer than I believe ranger is giving me straight, but still be the champion of the forest hunter type.

I've been going over all of the possibilities such as:
ranger 13/fighter 4/rogue 3
ranger 9/rogue 7/fighter 4
fighter(EK) 13/ranger 4/cleric(war) 3

Thinking about what I want to be able to do:
My party role (as I see it) is primarily to pick mobs off the tank from the rear. I have sharpshooter feat for firing into melee and I want some rogue levels to get the sneak attack damage since he (the tank) will generally be within melee range of my targets to let me get that bonus.

Magically I want to be able to keep up hunters mark as much as possible and then toss some non-concentration spells for fun. In particular I want to be able to cast conjure animals sometimes.

What I am now considering is a ranger 5/druid 5/rogue 7/fighter 3 build.

With ranger 5 I get my extra attack, archery style, colossus slayer, and 2nd level ranger spells.
With druid 5 (circle of the land - grasslands) I get more spells and slots (including invisibility, haste, and conjure animals)
With rogue 7 I get expertise, cunning action, sneak attack damage, and evasion and uncanny dodge
With fighter 3 I get defense style, action surge, and either BM manuevers (probably more practical) or EK shield spell and weapon bond (sounds more fun to me).

I like the feel of the combo of abilities, I don't think it is a MAD build, I'd have 20 dex and decent WIS and CON. I'd be a good archer, and in my opinion more magical than if I just went straight archer. I'm even toying with doing arcane trickster with the rogue levels which takes nothing away from what I want for the archery and adds some neat flavor. I know my INT is terrible but I looked at Arcane Trickster and EK both from the perspective of just not taking spells with attack rolls or saves. I assume most of my low level slots will go to shield spell (regret having to drop to non-metal armor but shield should compensate).

Like I said I think I like it but I would appreciate feedback from more experienced players. Am I likely to regret not going deep in any class?

IMHO, if you take druid use it. Use it creatively, ranger druid assassin. You f'd in the wrong place dude. Think of the crazy stuff a druid can do in natural disguises. Use wild shape to set up your ambush, as they walk right by the smelly skunk. Druids are not tour guides. They kill everyone left after hours. Ambush and sneak attack. Guardian of the garden of Eden.

[tieren]

IMHO, if you take druid use it. Use it creatively, ranger druid assassin. You f'd in the wrong place dude. Think of the crazy stuff a druid can do in natural disguises. Use wild shape to set up your ambush, as they walk right by the smelly skunk. Druids are not tour guides. They kill everyone left after hours. Ambush and sneak attack. Guardian of the garden of Eden.

Oh I intend to.

My at will damage will be coming mostly from the archery, but I definitely see using wildshapes to get into advantageous firing positions.

Perhaps sneaking up a tree by the enemy camp in squirrel form, finding a nice high branch then shifting back and summoning a pack of boars to wake the enemy while I rain death down upon them.

[djreynolds]

Oh I intend to.

My at will damage will be coming mostly from the archery, but I definitely see using wildshapes to get into advantageous firing positions.

Perhaps sneaking up a tree by the enemy camp in squirrel form, finding a nice high branch then shifting back and summoning a pack of boars to wake the enemy while I rain death down upon them.

That's what I'm talking about. Some many of us, me included focus on number crunching, when a pack of wild boars willing do that for you. Cool build

[tieren]

Ok, I got clearance from my party's current druid (moon circle) that he's ok with me going this route.

I believe factoring in the ASI issue I am going to propose a ranger 5/Druid 8/ Rogue 3/ fighter 4 concept to my DM. (Hunter/grasslands land circle/arcane trickster/battle master).

[tieren]

I pitched the ranger 5/druid 8/rogue 3/fighter 4 to my DM last night and he was willing to let me do it but had some mechanical concerns about when the concept would really come together and start gelling.

We worked through some development paths and I realized it really wouldn't work the way I was envisioning until level 17 or 18, which we may never reach in this campaign.

Therefore I decided to drop the fighter levels and go for ranger 5/druid 7/rogue 8.
My development path will be to finish the 5 in ranger, then take the 5 in rogue, then take 5 in druid. Everything sort of clicks in at 15 this way (and the ASI's come a bit more naturally) and the higher levels are really just increasing sneak attack and getting to 4th level spells.

Thank you all for your input and assistance.

[coredump]

I am playing a very similar build currently, and thing begin to 'click' by level 3. It is a very powerful build throughout the leveling process.

[tieren]

I am playing a very similar build currently, and thing begin to 'click' by level 3. It is a very powerful build throughout the leveling process.

I am level 3 now and enjoying it.

What I meant by "clicking" was if I tried to get in some sneak attack, and get defensive fighting style before switiching to non-metal armor when I took the druid levels and then taking enough druid levels to cast the summons, I ended up with almost no ASI's until very late which put my Dex lower then I'd like it for such a range focused character for much of his career.

I am much more following in your footsteps now.

At 15 I'll have the conjure animals spell I wanted, and the sneak attack damage from the rogue to go with them, and the extra ranger attack, etc... I'll also have 3 ASi's by then which will get me to 18 Dex and Resilient (Con) for the concentration checks.

After looking at the progression path I think it will level comfortably and I'll have fun and contribute well the whole time.

[coredump]

I don't know if I mentioned it before.. but my path was Ranger2/Rogue2

Archery style, Hunters' mark, uncanny dodge, sneak attack, expertise (stealth, perception)

Then either Rogue3 or Ranger 3 (Finally decided on Ranger 3)

Then go Ranger 5. (so now either Rogue2/ranger5, or rogue3/ranger5)
Then rogue 5

Then I am probably going Battlemaster 3.... but can't be sure until I get there.


Ton of damage, great stealth and perception, Uncanny dodge for disengage or Hide (kiting FTW)... having a blast.

[tieren]

I just realized this morning that my ranger 5/druid 8/rogue 3/fighter 4 build will be crazy fast, not optimized wood-elf monk barbarian fast, but crazy fast nonetheless.

I can cast longstrider with ranger (no concentration), haste as grasslands land druid (concentration), and then action surge as the fighter and cunning action as the rogue to move, dash as my action, cunning action dash, haste action dash, and action surge dash. If I go EK with the fighter levels I can even use the shield spell with my reaction and pull all of the opponents reaction attacks of opportunities while I sprint around the battlefield.

30' + 10' longstrider = 40' x 2 haste = 80' movement speed = 400 feet in 6 seconds = about 45 mph

Thats seems nuts, 80 squares of movement on our grids.

When moving that fast do you need to make dex checks when cornering to stop from slamming into walls or skidding out?

(and thats just in archer form, not wildshaping into something with an even faster base speed)