The Adaptable Warblade

[LoyalPaladin]

Hello all!
I was struck with the inspiration to design the most adaptable Warblade I could. But I would like to fit certain guidelines.

First, Warblade 1-20. I used the 3rd Edition prefix because I knew "Optimization" would spark multi-classing and prestiging debates.

Second, Changeling race. I said adaptable, and I meant it. I want this warblade to walk the walk and talk the talk. I will accompany this with Glamered armor.

Third, Sizing/Morphing weapon. This is where it get's tricky, I want the Warblade to be able to switch weapons for the occasion, practice for a bit, and then hit the ground running. I'd like to default this as a +4 Sizing/Morphing/Metalline Kusari-Gama eventually, if at all possible.

I'd like to set this up for someone, possibly myself even, to build 1-20. So I'll make separate sections for what maneuvers to take 1-20 below, same with feats. Assume a 34 point buy, no templates, no flaws, and low cheese.

Thank you in advance, and I look forward to seeing your ideas on how you would build the ultimate Warblade.

Ability Scores:
STR:16 (+4 Natural Gain) DEX:14 CON:14 INT:15 (+1 Natural Gain) WIS:10 CHA:10

Equipment:
Weapon:+5 Adaptable/Metalline/Morphing/Sizing Kusari-Gama Head: Headband of Intellect Face: Neck: Amulet of Natural Armor Torso: Body: Glamered Mithral Breast Plate Waist: Belt of Giant's Strength Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance Arms: Strong Arm Bracers Hands:Gloves of the Balanced Hand Ring: Protection Ring: Mind Shielding Feet: Boots of Speed

Feats:
1st: Exotic Weapon Proficiency 3rd: Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) Warblade Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus 6th:Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) 9th: Weapon Specialization Warblade Bonus Feat: Greater Weapon Focus 12th: Martial Stance (Aura of Perfect Order) Warblade Bonus Feat: Greater Weapon Specialization 15th: Melee Weapon Mastery Warblade Bonus Feat: Ranged Weapon Mastery 18th: Weapon Supremacy

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[Gabrosin]

Step 1, take 17+ levels of Wizard.
Step 2, cast Shapechange :smallsmile:

[LoyalPaladin]

Step 1, take 17+ levels of Wizard.
Step 2, cast Shapechange :smallsmile:
You have failed me.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Feat Wise Adaptive Style might not be a bad choice at all, after all it refreshing your maneuvers and tailoring for the encounter at hand does mesh pretty well the idea of an adaptable warblade. Exotic weapon proficiency is not a terrible idea for the reasons you mentioned in the OP. Getting Melee weapon mastery could also be interesting. I'd personally ask your DM to be able to select [Fighter] feats with your bonus feats, that would help you a little. Also getting Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick would also help with the versatility aspect (I'm so good I don't need a weapon to kill you. But you are already pretty feat starved. Getting some feats from magical location and then DCFS'ing them would really help, but I think that would count as cheese :smalltongue:

Magic Item-wise I'd pick one of every maneuver granting item (use the rules in the MiC to avoid slot conflict), or at least one of each discipline you don't normally get.

[OldTrees1]

You might want to pay special attention to any maneuvers that work with a ranged weapon (maybe with a Greater Crystal of Returning).

[Gabrosin]

You have failed me.

In all seriousness, you'll have a hard time matching the sheer flexibility of any class that can shapechange, wild shape, polymorph, or even alter self. But okay, changeling, sure.

Speaking just from the maneuver side, without thought to build space or prereqs:
1 - Moment of Perfect Mind: With high concentration, you can make almost any will save without chance of failure.
1 - Sudden Leap: With a decent jump score, this is similar to a swift-action teleport.

2 - Action Before Thought: Reflex saves.
2 - Emerald Razor: Make any attack a touch attack.
2 - Wall of Blades: Fend off an attack.
2 - Mountain Hammer: Reshape any dungeon.

3 - Mind Over Body: Fortitude saves.
3 - Iron Heart Surge: Negate nearly anything.
3 - White Raven Tactics: Let a teammate go again.

4 - Lightning Recovery: Reroll an attack.

5 - Iron Heart Focus: Reroll a saving throw.
5 - Pouncing Charge: Pounce. Though you have other ways to do this, kinda.

6 - Moment of Alacrity: Act more often.

8 - White Raven Hammer: Stun on command.

9 - Time Stands Still: Stops time.

And maneuvers you could try to bring in from other disciplines with feats:

1 - Distracting Ember: Set off traps by spamming out elementals.
2 - Cloak of Deception: Briefly go invisible.
2 - Shadow Jaunt: Standard-action teleport. Unnecessary if you upgrade to Shadow Blink.
7 - Shadow Blink: Swift-action teleport. Hell yes.
9 - Strike of Righteous Vitality: Spam heal spells.

[Waddacku]

Definitely get the Insightful Strike maneuvers.

[LoyalPaladin]

Feat Wise Adaptive Style might not be a bad choice at all, after all it refreshing your maneuvers and tailoring for the encounter at hand does mesh pretty well the idea of an adaptable warblade.
I will most definitely take this.


Exotic weapon proficiency is not a terrible idea for the reasons you mentioned in the OP. Getting Melee weapon mastery could also be interesting.
I plan on taking EWP for sure, the Melee Weapon Mastery feat looks awesome... but I'm not sure a Warblade can qualify for it?


I'd personally ask your DM to be able to select [Fighter] feats with your bonus feats, that would help you a little.
I'm nearly 100% sure he will toss this idea out the window.


Also getting Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick would also help with the versatility aspect (I'm so good I don't need a weapon to kill you. But you are already pretty feat starved.
This is a good idea, I'll probably focus on weapons. But! If I have some feat room to spare, I'd definitely like to fit this in.


Getting some feats from magical location and then DCFS'ing them would really help, but I think that would count as cheese :smalltongue:
What is DCFS?


Magic Item-wise I'd pick one of every maneuver granting item (use the rules in the MiC to avoid slot conflict), or at least one of each discipline you don't normally get.
Wow, I didn't realize you could do this.


You might want to pay special attention to any maneuvers that work with a ranged weapon (maybe with a Greater Crystal of Returning).
I think I'll focus on melee maneuvers, since I'd primarily be a front liner. If you've got a d12 HD, use it.


In all seriousness, you'll have a hard time matching the sheer flexibility of any class that can shapechange, wild shape, polymorph, or even alter self. But okay, changeling, sure.
Gotta fit that theme, yo.


Speaking just from the maneuver side, without thought to build space or prereqs:
Thank you for these. That's really helpful.


Definitely get the Insightful Strike maneuvers.
Hmmmm...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Warblades levels count as fighter levels-2 for the purpose of qualifying for feats, so a Warblade 6 could take Weapon Specialization for example.

Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle, it is the combination of two spells from Fiendish Codex I+, the first one Embrace the Dark Chaos allows you to replace any feat you currently have for an [Abyssal Heritor] feat, the next spell Shun the Dark Chaos allows you to swap any [Abyssal Heritor] feat you have for any feat you qualify. If you combine both spells (commonly known as DCFS) you can swap any feat you don't want, like Iron Will from an Otyough Hole or the Elven weapon proficiencies for feats you do want. It is normally considered quite cheesy, but there are some tables that allow it, heck in others it is actually expected.

*Yes, I know the irony of suggesting Demon-spells to a Paladin, I don't care :smallbiggrin:

[LoyalPaladin]

Warblades levels count as fighter levels-2 for the purpose of qualifying for feats, so a Warblade 6 could take Weapon Specialization for example.
I thought that was true! But when I looked it over I didn't see it. Spot wasn't a skill I maxed...


Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle, it is the combination of two spells from Fiendish Codex I+, the first one Embrace the Dark Chaos allows you to replace any feat you currently have for an [Abyssal Heritor] feat, the next spell Shun the Dark Chaos allows you to swap any [Abyssal Heritor] feat you have for any feat you qualify. If you combine both spells (commonly known as DCFS) you can swap any feat you don't want, like Iron Will from an Otyough Hole or the Elven weapon proficiencies for feats you do want. It is normally considered quite cheesy, but there are some tables that allow it, heck in others it is actually expected.
That is cheesy. This sounds like something my DM might toss a book at me for...


*Yes, I know the irony of suggesting Demon-spells to a Paladin, I don't care :smallbiggrin:
People seem to find great job in this.

[OldTrees1]

I think I'll focus on melee maneuvers, since I'd primarily be a front liner. If you've got a d12 HD, use it.


Well yeah focus on melee, just keep an eye out for some melee maneuver that also work with ranged attacks. To play to the adaptable theme(and to not be helpless when you are forced into ranged combat).

[Marlowe]

The only maneuvers open to Warblades that do anything for ranged combat are Dancing/Raging Mongoose, both Tiger Claw. Both only help when your using a bow or some other missile weapon that gives you multiple attacks.

I generally just pack some Javelins for ranged.

[LoyalPaladin]

Well yeah focus on melee, just keep an eye out for some melee maneuver that also work with ranged attacks. To play to the adaptable theme(and to not be helpless when you are forced into ranged combat).
Oh, I see what you are saying.


The only maneuvers open to Warblades that do anything for ranged combat are Dancing/Raging Mongoose, both Tiger Claw. Both only help when your using a bow or some other missile weapon that gives you multiple attacks.
Alright. Good to know.


I generally just pack some Javelins for ranged.
That is probably what I will do. Also, I think this might be the first time I've seen you post without your standard planetouched accompaniment.

[SinsI]

Changeling.
Melee class.
And no Warshaper levels???

[LoyalPaladin]

Changeling.
Melee class.
And no Warshaper levels???
Nope. That defeats the purpose of this build.


First, Warblade 1-20. I used the 3rd Edition prefix because I knew "Optimization" would spark multi-classing and prestiging debates.

[Dienekes]

The only maneuvers open to Warblades that do anything for ranged combat are Dancing/Raging Mongoose, both Tiger Claw. Both only help when your using a bow or some other missile weapon that gives you multiple attacks.

I generally just pack some Javelins for ranged.

Not entirely true, off the top of my head I know Time Stands Still works for anything. There are probably more boosts or non-specific maneuvers as well if you look for them.

[Gabrosin]

Definitely get the Insightful Strike maneuvers.

The Insightful Strike line is great, it's just not furthering the cause of "adaptability". Definitely take them if you have space.

[LoyalPaladin]

Not entirely true, off the top of my head I know Time Stands Still works for anything. There are probably more boosts or non-specific maneuvers as well if you look for them.
I will pay close attention to them.


The Insightful Strike line is great, it's just not furthering the cause of "adaptability". Definitely take them if you have space.
Yeah, I was looking them over.

Right now I am trying to figure out my feats. Which are currently a mess.

[Gabrosin]

I will pay close attention to them.


Yeah, I was looking them over.

Right now I am trying to figure out my feats. Which are currently a mess.

Well, Adaptive Style definitely fits your motivation, though it's really not all that necessary for Warblades. You could take the Education feat and pour points into knowledge skills (and then Knowledge Devotion for more value); it depends on whether you want to focus on knowing things, or doing things. Both Power Attack and Combat Expertise could be considered "adaptive", letting you trade attack bonus for damage or defense as needed.

[LoyalPaladin]

Well, Adaptive Style definitely fits your motivation, though it's really not all that necessary for Warblades. You could take the Education feat and pour points into knowledge skills (and then Knowledge Devotion for more value); it depends on whether you want to focus on knowing things, or doing things. Both Power Attack and Combat Expertise could be considered "adaptive", letting you trade attack bonus for damage or defense as needed.
Yeah, looking it over, I don't really need Adaptive Style.

Education and Knowledge Devotion don't really fit the theme, despite being pretty powerful.

I'm deciding on Power Attack and Combat Expertise. All their feat chains seem to starve me out of feats, which sucks.

[OldTrees1]

I think Combat Reflexes(opens up the out of turn combat) and Evasive Reflexes(out of turn movement) would help. Although AoOs are less powerful for Initiators, it still is a style to add for the flexibility theme.

Most of the feat based combat(trip, knockback, daze) is already represented via a maneuver or two so Martial Study might be more effective.

I think some Gloves of Balance would be preferable to actually taking TWF and certainly preferable to taking ITWF.

[LoyalPaladin]

I think Combat Reflexes(opens up the out of turn combat) and Evasive Reflexes(out of turn movement) would help. Although AoOs are less powerful for Initiators, it still is a style to add for the flexibility theme.
Yeah, this could be good. I'm going to talk to my DM about allowing Fighter bonus feats in place of Warblade bonus feats.


Most of the feat based combat(trip, knockback, daze) is already represented via a maneuver or two so Martial Study might be more effective.
I really like the Thicket of Blades stance, so I'm definitely wasting feats on that one.


I think some Gloves of Balance would be preferable to actually taking TWF and certainly preferable to taking ITWF.
I thought about that, but wouldn't it limit my maneuvers by forcing me to TWF and take Tiger Claw maneuvers?

[OldTrees1]

I really like the Thicket of Blades stance, so I'm definitely wasting feats on that one.
What would you use Thicket of Blades with? Just basic melee attacks? Or would you be investing in the feat Standstill or Improved Trip?


I thought about that, but wouldn't it limit my maneuvers by forcing me to TWF and take Tiger Claw maneuvers?

Huh? No, even if you took TWF(instead of buying it like I suggested) you would not be forced to TWF. It would just be yet another backup option that you got for cheap.

Also I forgot it is Gloves of the Balanced Hand[8K gp] not Gloves of Balance.

[LoyalPaladin]

What would you use Thicket of Blades with? Just basic melee attacks? Or would you be investing in the feat Standstill or Improved Trip?
I was debating Improved Trip or Standstill. But so far, just basic melee attacks.


Huh? No, even if you took TWF(instead of buying it like I suggested) you would not be forced to TWF. It would just be yet another backup option that you got for cheap.
I see. I do like this idea, this way I could have two +5 Kusari-Gamas.


Also I forgot it is Gloves of the Balanced Hand[8K gp] not Gloves of Balance.
I actually own these on a character, so I totally know what you're talking about.

[OldTrees1]

I was debating Improved Trip or Standstill. But so far, just basic melee attacks.

I see. I do like this idea, this way I could have two +5 Kusari-Gamas.

Hm. Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Knock-down would add Trip to all you Strike Maneuvers as well as possibly giving you extra basic melee attacks. But Standstill costs only 1 feat to Knock-down's 3. I think Standstill wins out for a flexibility build.

Wait, can a single +5 Adaptable/Metalline/Morphing/Sizing Kusari-Gama transform into a Two Handed weapon and then into a Double weapon?

That reminds me. You might want to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

[LoyalPaladin]

Hm. Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Knock-down would add Trip to all you Strike Maneuvers as well as possibly giving you extra basic melee attacks. But Standstill costs only 1 feat to Knock-down's 3. I think Standstill wins out for a flexibility build.
I thought this build would be relatively simple... haha.


Wait, can a single +5 Adaptable/Metalline/Morphing/Sizing Kusari-Gama transform into a Two Handed weapon and then into a Double weapon?
Yep!


That reminds me. You might want to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
I knew I was missing something!

[marphod]

I'm deciding on Power Attack and Combat Expertise. All their feat chains seem to starve me out of feats, which sucks.

There's little point to getting Combat Expertise without getting something else in that chain (if you want the AC boost, just make sure you have 5 ranks in tumble, and see if your DM will let you initiate a maneuver while fighting defensively -- you get +3 AC for -4 to hit without spending a feat).

Power Attack, on the other hand, is its own capstone feat. Yes, there are feats that have PA as a prerequisite, but those are gravy and/or sub-par compared to PA. Assuming you keep your non-BAB based attack bonuses competitive (with help from Boosts from your allies), you can dump your entire BAB into PA for twice as much damage per swing. Not strictly necessary with a martial initiator, but mechanically, the best round-to-round combat option available for a THF.

[Theodred theOld]

It's incredibly feat heavy but the weapon supremacy path could be pretty versatile for a warblade. You get a nice handful of benefits on basically any weapon you like. Take a 10 on an attack roll once per round? Yes please. +5 to hit on any one attack in a full round attack? Also yes. The fact that you can attack normally while grappled and the +1 to AC is just gravy at this point.

[OldTrees1]

It's incredibly feat heavy but the weapon supremacy path could be pretty versatile for a warblade. You get a nice handful of benefits on basically any weapon you like. Take a 10 on an attack roll once per round? Yes please. +5 to hit on any one attack in a full round attack? Also yes. The fact that you can attack normally while grappled and the +1 to AC is just gravy at this point.

Eh. That costs 5 feats. The +5 to 1 attack in a full attack is A: just a +5 and B: is to an attack form not frequently used by initiators. The only thing of note is the Take 10 ability 1/turn and that is not worth 5 feats.

If only we could buy Stance of Perfect Order. Sigh, too bad Martial Stance would be 2 IL short at 18th.

[LoyalPaladin]

There's little point to getting Combat Expertise without getting something else in that chain (if you want the AC boost, just make sure you have 5 ranks in tumble, and see if your DM will let you initiate a maneuver while fighting defensively -- you get +3 AC for -4 to hit without spending a feat).
I've noticed this.... Combat expertise is not all that great.


It's incredibly feat heavy but the weapon supremacy path could be pretty versatile for a warblade.
I actually messaged my DM about letting me take FBF in place of my WBBF. If I can do that, I'll go the Weapon Supremacy route.


Eh. That costs 5 feats. The +5 to 1 attack in a full attack is A: just a +5 and B: is to an attack form not frequently used by initiators. The only thing of note is the Take 10 ability 1/turn and that is not worth 5 feats.
Normally there are better feats, but for the sake of this build it could be really handy.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Eh. That costs 5 feats. The +5 to 1 attack in a full attack is A: just a +5 and B: is to an attack form not frequently used by initiators. The only thing of note is the Take 10 ability 1/turn and that is not worth 5 feats.

If only we could buy Stance of Perfect Order. Sigh, too bad Martial Stance would be 2 IL short at 18th.

If you are going TWF or Ranged that +5 comes really handy, it also works really well with Avalanche of blades probably getting at least one extra attack maybe more.

And why wouldn't he be able to get Stance of Perfect order? If he gets two devoted spirit maneuvers (easy with the maneuver granting items or martial study) he could pick it up at level 12 with a regular feat.

[SinsI]

Nope. That defeats the purpose of this build.
The other stated purpose is Adaptivity. Even a single level in Warshaper can contribute enormously to the adaptivity of any Changeling. I'd say even 9th level maneuvers and stances are not worth losing Morphic Immunities and Morphic Weapons.

[OldTrees1]

Normally there are better feats, but for the sake of this build it could be really handy.
Did you mean "normally" as in "normally there are better feats, but not in this case"? Because I can easily find more worthy Full Attack feats than you have slots to fill (I have just assumed that you would be focused on Strike combat rather than Full Attack combat).


If you are going TWF or Ranged that +5 comes really handy, it also works really well with Avalanche of blades probably getting at least one extra attack maybe more.

And why wouldn't he be able to get Stance of Perfect order? If he gets two devoted spirit maneuvers (easy with the maneuver granting items or martial study) he could pick it up at level 12 with a regular feat.
+5 once per round exclusive to Full Attacks as part of 5 feats(don't forget the cost)? I can think of better feat option for Full Attacks(even ranged) without considering the more cost effect feat based attack boosts.

I thought(and confirmed) that Martial Study uses poor IL(1/2 HD) so you would only have an IL of 6 at 12th level. That is a far cry from 11 for a 6th level Stance right?


The other stated purpose is Adaptivity. Even a single level in Warshaper can contribute enormously to the adaptivity of any Changeling. I'd say even 9th level maneuvers and stances are not worth losing Morphic Immunities and Morphic Weapons.

I would remind you that the opening post was explicit on what the levels would be, that the levels would not be up for changing, and that the OP expected you to take notice of this explicit detail(going so far as to tailor the threads tags to avoid comments like this^).

[Dusk Eclipse]

The feat states "If you have martial adept levels this maneuver becomes one of your maneuvers known", the part that mentions 1/2 IL specifically mentions characters not having previous martial adept levels.

"If you do not have martial adept levels, you can use this maneuver once per encounter as a martial adept with an initiator level equal to 1/2 your character level..."

Furthermore even if Martial Study would limit your IL it doesn't matter for Martial Stance which reads "Your martial adept level for using this maneuver is equal to your levels in martial adept classes (if any)+1/2 your levels in other classes". So you could pick two level 1 maneuvers from Devoted Spirit using Martial Study and still pick up Stance of perfect order with Martial Stance.

[SinsI]

Feat selection in the OP post is not something I would expect from Adaptable build - only the three Marital feats contribute something to versatility, otherwise it seems to be a one trick pony (except for the Warblade class abilities).
Also, he can only take Weapon Supremacy at lvl 20 (since Fighter level is Warblade-2), not 18.

[Theodred theOld]

Wow. Alot of hate for weapon supremacy. I think on this build and with this concept it would work pretty well if you consider the handful of bonuses from all the prereqs and the ability to decide whether or not that awesome strike you want use will hit or not without relying on a dice roll (we all know how that can turn out). Oh, and with weapon aptitude it applies to pretty much every melee weapon so it fits the shapeshifting concept. Also, while strikes are great, full attack is always going to be useful and a + 5 to one of those later attacks does alot to boost output. Not a super optimal choice but solid and non-cheesy.

[LoyalPaladin]

If you are going TWF or Ranged that +5 comes really handy, it also works really well with Avalanche of blades probably getting at least one extra attack maybe more.
That maneuver... how did I not see it?!


Did you mean "normally" as in "normally there are better feats, but not in this case"? Because I can easily find more worthy Full Attack feats than you have slots to fill (I have just assumed that you would be focused on Strike combat rather than Full Attack combat).
Hmmm... Normally as in accruing bonuses with a weapon that can be easily applicable to all weapons I use.


So you could pick two level 1 maneuvers from Devoted Spirit using Martial Study and still pick up Stance of perfect order with Martial Stance.
I updated my build with this. Assuming I can use FBF in place of WBBF.


Wow. Alot of hate for weapon supremacy.
I actually appreciate the weapon supremacy concept.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You can't get Thicket of Blades with Martial Study, it is a stance.

[LoyalPaladin]

You can't get Thicket of Blades with Martial Study, it is a stance.
Woops, I need Martial Stance.

[OldTrees1]

The feat states "If you have martial adept levels this maneuver becomes one of your maneuvers known", the part that mentions 1/2 IL specifically mentions characters not having previous martial adept levels.


Furthermore even if Martial Study would limit your IL it doesn't matter for Martial Stance which reads "Your martial adept level for using this maneuver is equal to your levels in martial adept classes (if any)+1/2 your levels in other classes". So you could pick two level 1 maneuvers from Devoted Spirit using Martial Study and still pick up Stance of perfect order with Martial Stance.

O.O Nice! Now I have to go add higher level maneuvers/stances to some sheets.


Hmmm... Normally as in accruing bonuses with a weapon that can be easily applicable to all weapons I use.

I actually appreciate the weapon supremacy concept.
I think there are more cost effective ways of getting the same or better effect. Especially now that Dusk Eclipse pointed out how easy it is to pick out high level stances.

What was the reason against the 2 feat Education + Knowledge Devotion combo again?

[SinsI]

I updated my build with this. Assuming I can use FBF in place of WBBF.
At lvl 9 when you get the second Warblade bonus feat you don't qualify for Greater Weapon Focus - it requires Fighter level 8, so you can only take it at 10th level or later.
Same thing with Weapon Supremacy - at lvl 18 you don't qualify for it, as you need Fighter level 18 as a prerequisite.

Melee weapon mastery is actually not so good for you - your ability to switch Weapon Aptitude doesn't allow you to change the damage type you selected. This means that if you switch your Weapon Aptitude to a weapon that deals different type of damage, you lose the use of Melee Weapon Mastery (since you no longer meet the prerequisite).

[Endarire]

Why not go WhirlPounce Barbarian1?

[OldTrees1]

Why not go WhirlPounce Barbarian1?

Opening Post, 2nd Paragraph is relevant to your question.

[Sith_Happens]

Yeah, looking it over, I don't really need Adaptive Style.

You do if you're going to load up on maneuver-granting items, which is a very befitting thing to do.

[LoyalPaladin]

I think there are more cost effective ways of getting the same or better effect. Especially now that Dusk Eclipse pointed out how easy it is to pick out high level stances.
Hmmm... what is your recommended course of action?


What was the reason against the 2 feat Education + Knowledge Devotion combo again?
Well for one, I'm not sure I have the skill points to throw at it. For two, my DM might shoot me over Knowledge Devotion.

Edit:
Hmmm... re read the feat, he wouldn't shoot me. But do I have the SP to spend?


Opening Post, 2nd Paragraph is relevant to your question.
I appreciate you.


You do if you're going to load up on maneuver-granting items, which is a very befitting thing to do.
What would be recommended?

[Sith_Happens]

What would be recommended?

If you're really going for maximum adaptability then the answer is "as many as you can afford.":smallwink:

[LoyalPaladin]

If you're really going for maximum adaptability then the answer is "as many as you can afford.":smallwink:
Haha. I just need a new set of equipment depending on the day.

[marphod]

Hmmm... what is your recommended course of action?
What would be recommended?

Which stances you pick is going to depend on the rest of the build.

As for the items, custom build the item(s) so as to not use too many slots. Although, as i recall (and i'm away from my book to verify), you can only benefit from one item per school.




Hmmm... re read the feat, he wouldn't shoot me. But do I have the SP to spend?


Skill Points? Yes.

Do you have the feats? I don't know.

You're looking at something along the lines of 5 or 6 Skill Point, total, for a minimum investment. Only need 1 per relevant knowledge skill and you get a t least a +1 bonus against every creature, every combat with a 45% chance of that being better than +1. (50% when you add one to your int). Get an item with +5 to each relevant knowledge for about 15k gp. you'll be fine.

[OldTrees1]

Hmmm... what is your recommended course of action?

Well for one, I'm not sure I have the skill points to throw at it. For two, my DM might shoot me over Knowledge Devotion.

Edit:
Hmmm... re read the feat, he wouldn't shoot me. But do I have the SP to spend?

Honestly now that I know your Martial Stance feat can pick any stance, I would go for Aura of Perfect Order over Thicket of Blades. Thicket of Blades is highly acclaimed on this forum but all it does is give you an AoO when you have already reduced their speed to 5ft per round. Really it is just a "win more", you have already locked them down if they are resorting to 5ft steps. However just because I don't see much value there, does not mean there isn't value there.


Well you are starting with 4+Int. With Education you get them all as class skills. IIRC there are only about 6 that are applicable to Knowledge Devotion. Even a +3 Atk/Dam on all your attacks would be a better deal than the Weapon Focus line (not to mention the goodies from actual knowledge checks). So if you have a +15 modifier in all 6 you are set to average ~+3. Assuming a 14 Int with a +4 Int item, you only need 11*6=66 skill points out of your 23*(4+2)=138. So about 50% of your skill points to have IC knowledge about your enemies, get a +3 Atk/Dam, and be quite knowledgeable outside of combat.

I think you have enough SP to spend and it is less expensive on your limited feats than Weapon Supremacy.

Note: If you have Aura of Perfect Order then the SP cost drops significantly or the bonus increases by +1/+1.


I appreciate you.

I understand the situation. Glad to help as I can.

[marphod]

Well you are starting with 4+Int.

I grok the OP is going changling; I'll state, RAW and Fluff as written, I'm not sure the changling is really more adaptable than a stock human, but that's a matter of opinion. (Which matters in this case due to (1) the extra feat and (2) Extra skill points. But sidebar.)


With Education you get them all as class skills. IIRC there are only about 6 that are applicable to Knowledge Devotion. Even a +3 Atk/Dam on all your attacks would be a better deal than the Weapon Focus line (not to mention the goodies from actual knowledge checks). So if you have a +15 modifier in all 6 you are set to average ~+3. Assuming a 14 Int with a +4 Int item, you only need 11*6=66 skill points out of your 23*(4+2)=138. So about 50% of your skill points to have IC knowledge about your enemies, get a +3 Atk/Dam, and be quite knowledgeable outside of combat.

OP notes a starting int of 15, with the plan to add one to it over time. so that's 7 per level (or 6; see if your DM treats the skill points as retroactive). With a permanent +4 int item, (16kgp) that's 9 (or 6, again, check with your DM, but I'm going ahead with the 9 per level assumptions).

You've got +5 from int in all the knowledges, and +1 more from Educated to 2 of the relevant knowledge skills. The relevant knowledge skills are: Arcana (Dragons, Constructs, magical beasts), Dungeoneering (oozes, aberrations), Local (Humanoids), Nature (Animals, vermin, giants(?), Monsterous Humanoids (?), and plants), Religion (undead), and the Planes (Outsiders, elementals). so 6 of them; you need another +58 from some source. A +5 item to those skills costs 15000gp. 28 more points.

You're getting 207 Skill Points (9 x 23) over your 20 levels. That's less than 15%.

You can further reduce the skill point cost by getting a +6 Int item (for an extra 20kGP) by 6, and gain another 23 skill points in the process. Or you can eliminate all but the first rank requirement by spending another 45kgp for a +10 skill item for those 6 skills.

(to summarize:
+4 Int item, +5 skill item for 31kgp and 28 of 207 skill points; or
+6 Int item, +5 skill item for 51kgp and 22 of 230 skill points; or
+4 int item, +10 skill item for 76kgp and 6 of 207 skill points; or
+4 int item, +10 skill item for 76kgp, and 11 of 207 skill points and skip the educated feat; or
+12 skill item for 86.4kgp and 11 of 161 skill points and skip the Educated feat

I think the first or penultimate options are the sweet spots, depending on how much spare GP you anticipate.)



Note: If you have Aura of Perfect Order then the SP cost drops significantly or the bonus increases by +1/+1.


remains true.

[Sith_Happens]

Haha. I just need a new set of equipment depending on the day.

Or stack multiples of each effect on top of each other.


Although, as i recall (and i'm away from my book to verify), you can only benefit from one item per school.

This is incorrect. Go wild.:smallwink:

[SinsI]

OP notes a starting int of 15, with the plan to add one to it over time. so that's 7 per level (or 6; see if your DM treats the skill points as retroactive). With a permanent +4 int item, (16kgp) that's 9 (or 6, again, check with your DM, but I'm going ahead with the 9 per level assumptions).
Items that grant +Int while you wear them don't increase your skill points in D&D. In Pathfinder they grant you a specific skill boost while you wear them after 24 hours of continuous use.
And if he is going to invest 1 point in Int anyway, it is better to start with 16 Int and 15 Str and allocate all the points to Str afterward. That way you get +4 skill points right from the 1st level, +2 skill points from 2nd and 3rd levels and some more if you plan to add to Int later than 4th level.

Weapon:+5 Adaptable/Metalline/Morphing/Sizing Kusari-Gama
Change it to +1 Weapon and add some useful abilities instead - " Buying anything except a Pearl of Power 3 is a criminal misuse of funds in a party with a Wizard."


Body: Glamered Mithral Breast Plate
Mithral breastplate is +5 AC, max +5 Dex, 4200 gp. You only have +2 from Dex and no listed Dex-boosting.
Wouldn't it be better to get a Mithral Heavy Plate or Mithral Fullplate instead? If you want a light armor, Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor(+8 AC, max +2 Dex, ACP -6, 25% spell failure. (6,000 gp)) might also be a better choice.

[marphod]

Items that grant +Int while you wear them don't increase your skill points in D&D.

Got a citation on that? I've never found one, although its been a while since I looked.

[OldTrees1]

Got a citation on that? I've never found one, although its been a while since I looked.

Please double check the DMG for me, but I believe it is in the text of the Headband of Intellect(it is for the SRD version at least).

This device is a light cord with a small gem set so that it rests upon the forehead of the wearer. The headband adds to the wearer’s Intelligence score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +2, +4, or +6. This enhancement bonus does not earn the wearer extra skill points when a new level is attained; use the unenhanced Intelligence bonus to determine skill points.

Still with only 7 skill points per level it is still not a big chunk.

[SinsI]

Got a citation on that? I've never found one, although its been a while since I looked.
PHB, on skill points:

Your character’s Intelligence modifier affects the number of skill
points he or she gets at each level.... This rule represents an intelligent
character’s ability to learn faster over time. Use your character’s
current Intelligence score, including all permanent changes (such as
inherent bonuses, ability drains, or an Intelligence increase gained
at step 4, above) but not any temporary changes (such as ability
damage, or enhancement bonuses gained from spells or magic
items, such as a headband of intellect), to determine the number of
skill points you gain.

[Troacctid]

Power Attack is a pretty nice feat for Warblades if you're taking maneuvers like Steely Strike and Emerald Razor, because you can convert the extra accuracy into more damage.

Consider buying a size category increase via castings of Enlarge Person + Permanency. It's not too expensive and it increases your threatened area significantly.

Have you thought about what actual weapons you might use? Because it seems like, given the amount of time it takes to switch your feats, you're not, in practice, going to have a lot of tactical flexibility. Yes, you have a morphing weapon, but as soon as you change it to something else you lose all the benefits of your feats. So even though you can change your weapon from day to day, you're not as versatile as someone with Quick Draw, a Wand of Master's Touch, and an arsenal of unusual exotic weapons.

[LoyalPaladin]

Wouldn't it be better to get a Mithral Heavy Plate or Mithral Fullplate instead? If you want a light armor, Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor(+8 AC, max +2 Dex, ACP -6, 25% spell failure. (6,000 gp)) might also be a better choice.
I will do that. I was trying not to lose any speed, but I can get around that.


Consider buying a size category increase via castings of Enlarge Person + Permanency. It's not too expensive and it increases your threatened area significantly.
With Sizing on my weapon, I should gain reach right?


Have you thought about what actual weapons you might use? Because it seems like, given the amount of time it takes to switch your feats, you're not, in practice, going to have a lot of tactical flexibility. Yes, you have a morphing weapon, but as soon as you change it to something else you lose all the benefits of your feats. So even though you can change your weapon from day to day, you're not as versatile as someone with Quick Draw, a Wand of Master's Touch, and an arsenal of unusual exotic weapons.
I'm actually going to be doing a lot of duels. This character will apparently be throwing down with people and betting their "identity".

[OldTrees1]

With Sizing on my weapon, I should gain reach right?


I'm actually going to be doing a lot of duels. This character will apparently be throwing down with people and betting their "identity".

Reach only results from:
A) A reach weapon (so the Morphing ability not the Sizing ability)
B) Size (so Large Size or greater)
C) Misc feats
So Enlarge Person would give you reach whether or not you used Sizing and Sizing would not give you reach whether or not you were Enlarged.

Betting their "identity" sounds nice. Is Changeling enough for that or would you want to look into Doppelganger?

[LoyalPaladin]

Reach only results from:
A) A reach weapon (so the Morphing ability not the Sizing ability)
B) Size (so Large Size or greater)
C) Misc feats
So Enlarge Person would give you reach whether or not you used Sizing and Sizing would not give you reach whether or not you were Enlarged.
I understand now, but wouldn't the sizing ability to make a weapon larger than medium grant reach?


Betting their "identity" sounds nice. Is Changeling enough for that or would you want to look into Doppelganger?
Changeling should be fine. They are going to duel people using their own weapon choice and appearance, the winner gets to claim that identity and the other gets to live in shame as the "impostor".

[OldTrees1]

I understand now, but wouldn't the sizing ability to make a weapon larger than medium grant reach?

No. Flat no. In 3.5 wielding a 5000 mile long sword will not increase your reach at all. You get your base reach from your Size (Small-Medium 5ft, Large 10ft)which is then multiplied by your weapon type (non reach x1, reach x2, Awl Pike x3).

[LoyalPaladin]

No. Flat no. In 3.5 wielding a 5000 mile long sword will not increase your reach at all. You get your base reach from your Size (Small-Medium 5ft, Large 10ft)which is then multiplied by your weapon type (non reach x1, reach x2, Awl Pike x3).
Huh. The more you know, I guess. I never realized this.

[Snowbluff]

You know, when I think Adaptable, I think Master of Nine.

Now, I know you said warblade, but Sjlver has been talking to me about building a MoN, and I can say that you get a lot more mileage out of Adaptive Styles if you have a lot more maneuvers readied and known. If you want a new character for the game, I would try it.

[Deadline]

For the discussion on Skill Points and Knowledges for use with Knowledge Devotion, be sure to spend 2 skill points on the Collector of Stories skill trick (found in Complete Scoundrel). It's usable 1/encounter, and gives you a +5 bump to any one knowledge check. Unless you are facing hordes of every creature type in every encounter, it'll probably be a boon to you.

[LoyalPaladin]

You know, when I think Adaptable, I think Master of Nine.

Now, I know you said warblade, but Sjlver has been talking to me about building a MoN, and I can say that you get a lot more mileage out of Adaptive Styles if you have a lot more maneuvers readied and known. If you want a new character for the game, I would try it.
I getcha. That doesn't fit for this character. But for the PBP game we're talking about I'd consider it.

[Marlowe]

I made a quick human build from Warblade into MoN here . (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426869-Single-class-Warblade-into-Master-of-Nine-level-1-9-only-%283-5%29)

[LoyalPaladin]

I made a quick human build from Warblade into MoN here . (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426869-Single-class-Warblade-into-Master-of-Nine-level-1-9-only-%283-5%29)
Awesome. I'll give that a look-see! Thanks Marlowe.

[atemu1234]

You have failed me.

Now now, no need to be rude. It does solve the problem.

[Marlowe]

The problem of being an adaptable straight-class Warblade? No, no it does not.

[OldTrees1]

Now now, no need to be rude. It does solve the problem.

I believe the 2nd paragraph of the opening post is relevant to your confusion. Multiclassing is not a valid solution to this thread's question.