Earth Elemental's Earth Glide

[Ardantis]

Our level 4 party (bladelock paladin barbarin bard) fought an Earth Elemental (CR 5) today and we got our behinds handed to us. One of the reasons was that the EE kept popping up out of the earth using his Earth Glide and smacking us around before diving back under before the end of his turn. We couldn't fight it on our turns; instead we all had to ready our actions to play whack-a-mole when he came up.

Additionally, the DM decided to grant the EE advantage on attacks made after springing out because the creature was hiding. Couple this with reach and we didn't stand a chance.

Does this make any sense? Should Earth Elementals be this deadly? He could do 30 damage a turn and potentially one-shot any of us!

[j_spencer93]

Looking it over, i don't really see what is wrong with playing it that way. It actually seems correct to me.

[Gritmonger]

Create water, jump in a pool, get on top of a wood structure, shuffle into some sand?

Given the elemental nature, once I saw it do the earthglide thing, I'd be tempted to get off the ground any way I could, as I'd suspect it couldn't "see" through non-earth, and wouldn't know where I was...

[j_spencer93]

ya, fighting one on their own element means your going to get your behinds handed to you lol

[SharkForce]

most of you should be able to grapple him with a reasonable chance of success (somewhere around 50/50 most likely if you've got a good strength score... better if you also have proficiency in athletics. for the record, the great majority of monsters do not have proficiency in athletics, so a strong character with athletics proficiency is likely to grapple successfully so long as the target is not too large).

grappled creatures cannot move (and by extension, cannot move away). they can even be dragged around (arguably fully above ground even).

grappling can be attempted on an attack, which can be done as a readied action.

that said, it is a CR 5 creature worth 1800 exp, which is in the deadly difficulty bracket for a group of 4 level 4 characters (more than 1500, less than 2000). in this case, that seems to be working as intended.

you could even argue that the elemental has a situational advantage that would increase the encounter difficulty for the party, although considering it is kinda baked-in to the stat block (the default assumption for an earth elemental should not be that it is fighting you in the air after all), you'd hope it was already accounted for.

[j_spencer93]

Shark...thats a good point. I wonder if they included the bonus difficulty for fighting in in an enviorment that gives it an advantage.

[Mjolnirbear]

I would personally argue against the hiding. Just because you can't see it at the moment doesnt mean you don't know it's nearby. Advantage from hiding is because your presence is a surprise; if you know he will pop up, then it's not a surprise.

You have 360 vision during a fight to account for battlefield awareness (yes, it's in the rules, though i can't tell you offhand which page. Try Hiding in the index at the back of the book). Hiding means you're not aware, so you get surprised. If you're aware, and know to look for it, as soon as its head leaves the ground you've located it and are prepared. Thus no surprise, thus no advantage.

Without this 360 vision you could hide by moving behind a person and getting advantage because you are unseen.

[SharkForce]

you still have no real idea where it is. it is at least as thoroughly hidden as an invisible creature.

[j_spencer93]

Yea I disagree. IT is hidden. Actually almost identically to how they say a ranger can attack while hidden then hide again to remain hidden. The creature is out of sight and unable to be seen or located. Its hidden.

[Ardantis]

It comes out of the earth to attack, removing hidden status before it attacks. It does not have proficiency in (nor did it attempt to) stealth. Does it gain advantage on one or both attacks?

[SharkForce]

does it come out of the earth to attack? it's perfectly capable of just reaching through the ground right underneath you. it isn't disturbing the ground in any way. why would it need to stealth? your perception checks have no means of detecting it. it isn't making any noise because it isn't disturbing the ground. it isn't visible, because it is inside an opaque material. you can't smell it, or taste it, or touch it. which type of perception check are you going to make to detect it? if i am standing behind a 10 foot thick wall and you try to see me, do i need to make a stealth check, or does your perception(sight) check simply fail because it is impossible for you to see me?

the elemental should gain advantage on both attacks. you are effectively blind with respect to it. it can just glide around 10 feet below ground and hitting you, and you have no way of knowing where it is below ground.

[hacksnake]

most of you should be able to grapple him with a reasonable chance of success

Can you grapple something attacking you with reach by using a ready action?

Common sense says if his hand is close enough to smack you then it's close enough to grab it...
RAW I'm not sure it's legit. Is it?

EDIT: re: hiding
I think the applicable rules are in "Unseen Attackers and Targets". The examples given are: hiding, invisibility, & lurking in darkness.

Lurking inside the earth is effectively a superior form of lurking in darkness. It says if you are hidden attacking gives away your location. Hidden is separable from "lurking in darkness" (heavily obscured I suppose?) or "invisible".

So in the scenario where the elemental attacks from inside the earth I'd say RAW it's advantage both attacks since it's 'lurking' the whole time. On the other hand if the elemental hasn't taken a hide action then popping out of the ground removes the "lurking in darkness" analog so it probably isn't technically hidden anymore & therefore no advantage.

I couldn't find any specific reference to "360 vision" other than some text about being constantly moving during combat & needing to meet specific criteria to be "unseen" as per above. I suppose that is more or less just different language for "you have 360 vision except when something specifically makes you unaware of the critter - hiding, obscuration, or invisibility."

EDIT2: again re: hiding
Language on pg 177 for Hiding that I missed - "In combat, most creatures stay alert... so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you..." Goes on to say the DM can rule that you still gain advantage to attack a distracted creature.

So even in the "burrow, hide, pop up, attack, sink" case no advantage unless the party is otherwise distracted.
However "smack you at range from in the ground" seems to grant advantage every attack legitimately.

[Malifice]

Additionally, the DM decided to grant the EE advantage on attacks made after springing out because the creature was hiding.

If it didnt have cunning action (which it doesnt) it needs to use its action to hide.

So it only attacks every second turn (at best).


does it come out of the earth to attack? it's perfectly capable of just reaching through the ground right underneath you.

http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~kuijt/HOTT/EarthElementals/DSCN1896.JPG

Yeah, I imagine 'arms' coming out of the ground to attack you at the least. Maybe its head poking out too to see better seeing as it cant see through earth barring tremorsense.


it isn't disturbing the ground in any way.

Nothing in earth glide infers that the movement is silent, lacks vibration or other means of detecting it. There may even be visual clues (such as ripples on the surface).

Remember - even invisible creatures, or creatures with total obscurement or cover still need to take the Hide action to be hidden.


why would it need to stealth?

Because you're not hidden without taking the Hide action and making a stealth check to hide. This roll sets the DC of perception checks to spot you (and negate the advantage from being hidden).

In my view, the elemental could attack and then glide down under the party, attempt to use the Hide action on it's next turn and then (assuming it beats the passive perception scores of the PC) re emerge and attack with advantage the following round.


Can you grapple something attacking you with reach by using a ready action?

Common sense says if his hand is close enough to smack you then it's close enough to grab it...
RAW I'm not sure it's legit. Is it?

EDIT: re: hiding
I think the applicable rules are in "Unseen Attackers and Targets". The examples given are: hiding, invisibility, & lurking in darkness.

Lurking inside the earth is effectively a superior form of lurking in darkness. It says if you are hidden attacking gives away your location. Hidden is separable from "lurking in darkness" (heavily obscured I suppose?) or "invisible".

Invisibility (and even complete darkness) don't make you hidden by default. They just provide the prerequisite enabling you to make a stealth check to Hide via the Hide action.

Turning yourself invisible allows you to still be targeted with attacks until you take the Hide action (usually on your next turn, unless you are a Rogue 2)

[Mjolnirbear]

Stop moving.

It can't see through the ground. It has darkvision and tremorsense. If you are not moving, there are no tremors for it to detect. So it needs to come above ground just to see you. Throw rocks around just to distract it. It has an intelligence of 5, it's not like it's got tactics.

Further, it can't just reach up and attack you from underneath, because it won't know you're there. Which means that when it pops up to find you, it is no longer hidden. Bye bye advantage.

Find a spell that does thunder damage, it's vulnerable. Prepare to aim it at the ground. Sound travels through earth like any other vibration. It will quite possibly blind the thing, like a flashbang.

[Malifice]

Stop moving.

It can't see through the ground. It has darkvision and tremorsense. If you are not moving, there are no tremors for it to detect. So it needs to come above ground just to see you. Throw rocks around just to distract it. It has an intelligence of 5, it's not like it's got tactics.

Further, it can't just reach up and attack you from underneath, because it won't know you're there. Which means that when it pops up to find you, it is no longer hidden. Bye bye advantage.

Find a spell that does thunder damage, it's vulnerable. Prepare to aim it at the ground. Sound travels through earth like any other vibration. It will quite possibly blind the thing, like a flashbang.

Love the aiming thunder effect at the ground idea to mess with it's tremor sense. I'd totally blind it if a PC came up with that idea.

[hacksnake]

Invisibility (and even complete darkness) don't make you hidden by default. They just provide the prerequisite enabling you to make a stealth check to Hide via the Hide action.

Turning yourself invisible allows you to still be targeted with attacks until you take the Hide action (usually on your next turn, unless you are a Rogue 2)

Sure. I'm not sure if you're responding to grappling or advantage on attacks?

Grappling:
The situation posed is the elemental is only above ground during his turn & only at range.
So I don't think being hidden or not matters, right?

I think it's really just: "can I Ready an Attack action to Grapple the fist of the thing smashing my face?"

Advantage:
Being "unseen" is what is granting advantage / disadvantage.
Hiding makes you unseen. So do other things like invisibility & darkness (or being underground presumably).

Targeting:
I absolutely agree that you need to be hidden to force "target a square & auto miss" behavior. I'm just not sure how that applies to the situation presented or what I said.

[Malifice]

Sure. I'm not sure if you're responding to grappling or advantage on attacks?

Grappling:
The situation posed is the elemental is only above ground during his turn & only at range.
So I don't think being hidden or not matters, right?

I think it's really just: "can I Ready an Attack action to Grapple the fist of the thing smashing my face?"

And I would answer 'Yes' (grab its arm while it attacks and hold it stopping it from fully diving under the earth again).


Advantage:
Being "unseen" is what is granting advantage / disadvantage.
Hiding makes you unseen. So do other things like invisibility & darkness (or being underground presumably).

Invisibility (the condition) grants advantage. As does total obscurement. Both are different from hiding though.

[PoeticDwarf]

Our level 4 party (bladelock paladin barbarin bard) fought an Earth Elemental (CR 5) today and we got our behinds handed to us. One of the reasons was that the EE kept popping up out of the earth using his Earth Glide and smacking us around before diving back under before the end of his turn. We couldn't fight it on our turns; instead we all had to ready our actions to play whack-a-mole when he came up.

Additionally, the DM decided to grant the EE advantage on attacks made after springing out because the creature was hiding. Couple this with reach and we didn't stand a chance.

Does this make any sense? Should Earth Elementals be this deadly? He could do 30 damage a turn and potentially one-shot any of us!

If he goes out of the ground, and on the same turn back in, you have all a OA, the bladelock, barbarian and paladin al could do serious damage.
And you can search for better terrain.

At lv. 5, everyone becomes way stronger. So a CR 5 monster voor level 4 is a bad idea, where a CR 8 monster for a lv. 6 party is good possible.

[SharkForce]

If it didnt have cunning action (which it doesnt) it needs to use its action to hide.

So it only attacks every second turn (at best).



http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~kuijt/HOTT/EarthElementals/DSCN1896.JPG

Yeah, I imagine 'arms' coming out of the ground to attack you at the least. Maybe its head poking out too to see better seeing as it cant see through earth barring tremorsense.



Nothing in earth glide infers that the movement is silent, lacks vibration or other means of detecting it. There may even be visual clues (such as ripples on the surface).

Remember - even invisible creatures, or creatures with total obscurement or cover still need to take the Hide action to be hidden.

they also don't need to hide to attack with advantage. as far as the part that says it doesn't make noise or leave ripples on the surface, that would be the part that clearly and explicitly states that it does not disturb the ground it is moving through. it is not burrowing. it is using earth glide.

[Malifice]

they also don't need to hide to attack with advantage.

How come? They punching the soles of the feet or something?


as far as the part that says it doesn't make noise or leave ripples on the surface, that would be the part that clearly and explicitly states that it does not disturb the ground it is moving through. it is not burrowing. it is using earth glide.

If you want to imagine it as totally silent then go for it.

I don't.

[hacksnake]

How come? They punching the soles of the feet or something?

For "attacks from within the ground" I'd go with PHB pg. 194 "Unseen Attackers and Targets".

The elemental has 10' reach. If it's underground 5' under someone it's unseen & can attack with reach. I suppose it might be somewhat up to DM interpretation if the arm popping out of the ground to smash you makes the elemental "seen" enough to remove the advantage.

I think I'd personally rule it as "it's unseen & has advantage". I think realistically the split-second reaction time wouldn't be sufficient to react as defensively as if you saw the wind up coming & etc if the elemental were fully visible.

On the other hand for "pops out of ground, then smashes in plain sight, then hides in ground again" I'd personally rule no advantage unless the party was otherwise distracted due to PHB pg. 177 "Hiding" box 3rd paragraph. I might allow advantage once if the party wasn't expecting something like that to happen but once the tactic was clear I think people would be on the look out.

I realize that technically the elemental is not "hidden" while underground. They are just "unseen". However, I think the spirit of the hiding rules on pg. 177 are logically applicable to the "unseen in the ground" scenario.

[Malifice]

For "attacks from within the ground" I'd go with PHB pg. 194 "Unseen Attackers and Targets".

The elemental has 10' reach. If it's underground 5' under someone it's unseen & can attack with reach. I suppose it might be somewhat up to DM interpretation if the arm popping out of the ground to smash you makes the elemental "seen" enough to remove the advantage.

I think I'd personally rule it as "it's unseen & has advantage". I think realistically the split-second reaction time wouldn't be sufficient to react as defensively as if you saw the wind up coming & etc if the elemental were fully visible.

On the other hand for "pops out of ground, then smashes in plain sight, then hides in ground again" I'd personally rule no advantage unless the party was otherwise distracted due to PHB pg. 177 "Hiding" box 3rd paragraph. I might allow advantage once if the party wasn't expecting something like that to happen but once the tactic was clear I think people would be on the look out.

I realize that technically the elemental is not "hidden" while underground. They are just "unseen". However, I think the spirit of the hiding rules on pg. 177 are logically applicable to the "unseen in the ground" scenario.

I'd still require a hide action. It would get advantage against any PC whose perception score it beat.

Also gives the PCs some time to formulate a plan (staying still to defeat tremor sense etc).

Even swinging at feet, it's gotta follow through. Fists would be popping out of the earth and all that.

[SharkForce]

it doesn't need to hide to get advantage on the attack. it just needs to be heavily obscured. which it most assuredly is.

[Mjolnirbear]

It's the same thing though. Whether it's advantage from hiding or obsurity, either way the advantage is lost once they can be seen.

Unless he wants to guess at their location, in which case, disadvantage and advantage are cancelled.

This is, of course, assuming the players are not running about. Because if they are, well then yes, of course he can see them while underground and attack them while being hidden or obscured.

Quick tip: he has a limited move speed and a limited tremorsense distance. Get far enough away while he can't catch up and he'll be 'blind' to you even if youre stomping around and beating the earth with a big stick.

[Strill]

I would personally argue against the hiding. Just because you can't see it at the moment doesnt mean you don't know it's nearby. Advantage from hiding is because your presence is a surprise; if you know he will pop up, then it's not a surprise.

That's not how the game does hiding. Rogues can hide at any point in combat with a bonus action, as long as their opponents cannot immediately see them. There's no reason the earth elemental can't spend a turn underground hiding between each attack.

[SharkForce]

It's the same thing though. Whether it's advantage from hiding or obsurity, either way the advantage is lost once they can be seen.

Unless he wants to guess at their location, in which case, disadvantage and advantage are cancelled.

This is, of course, assuming the players are not running about. Because if they are, well then yes, of course he can see them while underground and attack them while being hidden or obscured.

Quick tip: he has a limited move speed and a limited tremorsense distance. Get far enough away while he can't catch up and he'll be 'blind' to you even if youre stomping around and beating the earth with a big stick.

but it never has to be seen. it can just attack you from inside the ground. and if you stop moving, it still knows where you are unless you were out of tremorsense range when you stopped (and you have no way of knowing if you are out of tremorsense range, because you have no way of knowing where the earth elemental is; it is completely 100% obscured).

after the first attack, you don't know if the second attack will be against you, or against someone else that the earth elemental moves to. you don't know if it'll be from the same angle, or if the elemental will move somewhere else first. when it attacks from underground it is heavily obscured, and there is no reason for it to not attack from the ground unless you are somehow off the ground.

[Ardantis]

but it never has to be seen. it can just attack you from inside the ground. and if you stop moving, it still knows where you are unless you were out of tremorsense range when you stopped (and you have no way of knowing if you are out of tremorsense range, because you have no way of knowing where the earth elemental is; it is completely 100% obscured).

after the first attack, you don't know if the second attack will be against you, or against someone else that the earth elemental moves to. you don't know if it'll be from the same angle, or if the elemental will move somewhere else first. when it attacks from underground it is heavily obscured, and there is no reason for it to not attack from the ground unless you are somehow off the ground.

That's why it's such a tough fight.

[Malifice]

it doesn't need to hide to get advantage on the attack. it just needs to be heavily obscured. which it most assuredly is.

If it's not Hidden, the PC's know where it is (roughly) and can ready actions to strike it when it (or its hands) pop out from the ground.

That's the difference between being 'hidden' and between being invisible or heavily obscured. While all three grant advantage on attack rolls, they're not the same thing.

[Mjolnirbear]

That's not how the game does hiding. Rogues can hide at any point in combat with a bonus action, as long as their opponents cannot immediately see them. There's no reason the earth elemental can't spend a turn underground hiding between each attack.

Rogues (and anyone) can hide provide the necessary conditions are met: they are unseen; they roll Stealth, their Stealth beats opponent's Perception. You give your position away when you attack, talk or cast a spell. You lose stealth if you can be seen (enemy moved around the wall, someone casts Darkvision, the heavy fog blows away).

Unseen and hidden are different conditions. The one does not mean the other. The difference is that if you are hidden, i cannot attack you. There is nothing to target. But if you are simply unseen, i can try to locate your position. If i can locate it, i can try to attack--with disadvantage of course.

So this is where the debate lies: can a rogue jack-in-the-box? Because as soon as you jump out of hiding to attack, you are seen (enemies in combat have 360 degree vision unless the DM decides for some reason your target is not paying attention) . If you are seen, you are not hidden. Not hidden, no advantage.

The other side of the debate supports jack in the box because, well, why allow the rogue to have it as a bonus action if not for repeatable sneak attacks? What's the point of attacking from hiding at all? (Incidentally, my group treats it like surprise--if you are hidden while i don't know you're there, advantage, because I'm not on the lookout for you. Once you reveal yourself, i will always be on the lookout for you until the end of combat, or something unusual happens). But you don't need hidden for that. You don't even need advantage for that. You just need an enemy within 5' of an ally.

No doubt other arguments will surface and at any rate, it is not my point; my point is that the DM made a few errors. First, he conflated hidden with unseen. Unless the EE took the hide action, it was not hidden. That is clear as day, in the rules. He was unseen. Does it matter? They both give advantage. Which leads me to the next error: he assumed the earth elemental's ability is a superior form of invisibility. Which it is in some ways, as long as he's under the ground, yes. But it's a bubble, whose line is at the level of the earth. To attack them, he has to cross that line. If he does not, he basically tickles them. To cross that line means some part of him can be seen and reacted to, which would eliminate advantage.

If there were an invisibility bubble, but a hand and a sword was sticking out, do you think it would be hard to tell where the attack comes from? That the bubble is underneath you makes no difference.

Unless it comes rocketing out of the earth like superman, which sucks for the guy who just got hit, but still provides a target for his allies.

Third error: he assumed that no disturbance of the earth, per the EE earth glide ability, meant no sound waves, no vibration, no chance at all of detection. To be fair here, as DM this is his call to make. But he didnt play this like a CR five creature. He gave them no chance to find the enemy. No chance to counter it. Playing it the way he did is like throwing an ancient lich at you that was accidentally listed at the wrong CR and saying 'but the book says it's a low CR!' And sneer in glee as the players fail to beat his unbeatable monster.

What i want to know is what this DM thought the players could do against him. If nothing is what he can come up with, then it's not a monster he should ever allow on the table.

[SharkForce]

that's nonsense. when someone fires an arrow from the shadows, do you say "oh, well, you saw the arrow, so the attack is exactly the same as if it was coming from broad daylight, no advantage"? because if that was the DM's ruling in a game i was in, i'd probably just get up and walk out right then and there. if they're stupid enough to believe that, well, i'm better off letting a computer run things, because at least the computer is a consistent idiot.

the elemental should have advantage when attacking from underneath the ground. your party should indeed have time to react once they know to expect the attack, but won't necessarily be able to react unless they're close enough obviously (unless you've got a party of more than ~9 people or you're all large, that shouldn't be a major problem).

not interested in getting into an argument on hiding right now (been there, done that), but at some point, you don't need to hide for someone to not perceive you. for example, i cannot see any of the other people on this forum at the moment. not because they're all taking a hide action, but simply because there are sufficient obstacles in between me and them (distance, various objects likely including the planet in some cases, etc) that i simply cannot attempt an appropriate perception check. i automatically fail. i can't see earthworms in the ground while i'm outside walking around, because they are inside the dirt. no matter how i try, no perception check is going to reveal their location to me. for all intents and purposes, they are hidden. not because they're specifically using the hide action, but simply because there is nothing for me to attempt to perceive with my limited senses.

unless the party can sense things inside the ground when those things are not disturbing the ground, they won't sense the elemental either. if they can't sense when there's a tunnel beyond a wall, or that the ground in front of them is quicksand, or similar, they just don't get to know where something that moves inside the ground without disturbing it is. whether it is hiding or not.

[Malifice]

that's nonsense. when someone fires an arrow from the shadows, do you say "oh, well, you saw the arrow, so the attack is exactly the same as if it was coming from broad daylight, no advantage"?

If you cant see your attacker, they get advantage.

This is not the same thing as being hidden though. They're different things.

You can be invisible (and gain advantage on attack rolls) and not be hidden. You can be in total obscurement (and gain advantage on attack rolls) and not be hidden.


because if that was the DM's ruling in a game i was in, i'd probably just get up and walk out right then and there. if they're stupid enough to believe that, well, i'm better off letting a computer run things, because at least the computer is a consistent idiot.

Waaah.


the elemental should have advantage when attacking from underneath the ground. your party should indeed have time to react once they know to expect the attack, but won't necessarily be able to react unless they're close enough obviously (unless you've got a party of more than ~9 people or you're all large, that shouldn't be a major problem).

If it can hit them, they can hit it. Ready an action to strike it when it strikes them. It makes its attack with advantage, then they resolve their readied actions against it(s arm).

If the Elemental bothered to use its previous turn to take the Hide action, the only people that could strike it when it(s arm) popped up would be the PC's who beat its Stealth check with Passive Perception scores.


unless the party can sense things inside the ground when those things are not disturbing the ground

You havent yet proved that Earth Glide renders the Elemental silent, or renders the Elemental totally non perceivable to any senses.


they don't get to know where something that moves inside the ground without disturbing it is. whether it is hiding or not.

The rules of the game say otherwise.

[SharkForce]

If you cant see your attacker, they get advantage.

This is not the same thing as being hidden though. They're different things.

You can be invisible (and gain advantage on attack rolls) and not be hidden. You can be in total obscurement (and gain advantage on attack rolls) and not be hidden.



Waaah.



If it can hit them, they can hit it. Ready an action to strike it when it strikes them. It makes its attack with advantage, then they resolve their readied actions against it(s arm).

If the Elemental bothered to use its previous turn to take the Hide action, the only people that could strike it when it(s arm) popped up would be the PC's who beat its Stealth check with Passive Perception scores.



You havent yet proved that Earth Glide renders the Elemental silent, or renders the Elemental totally non perceivable to any senses.



The rules of the game say otherwise.

uh-huh. so if the PCs ask for the location of their enemy, you must just tell them where it is unless that enemy is explicitly hiding and they fail to beat that enemy's perception check, right? i mean, that's what the rules say. doesn't matter if the person is a hundred miles away, unless they take a hide action, everyone in the world knows where they are. and, for that matter, everyone in the world has a chance to hear them whenever they talk about their evil plans too, right?

or, alternately, there comes a time when, hiding or not, you simply cannot perceive the creature. no matter how you look, there is no earth elemental to see while it is inside the ground (when it sticks an appendage out of the ground and smacks you with it, of course, you can see that just fine... and yes, react to it in whatever various ways you prefer).

there comes a time when, no matter how you listen, you simply will not hear a sound because it is either not there or you simply are not in a place where you can hear it. the elemental is passing through the ground without disturbing it. there is no moving pile of dirt to spot, no sound of moving rocks to hear, no rumbling to feel (rumbling would disturb the ground, and we know that whatever else happens, the elemental does not disturb the ground).

is the earth elemental hidden? probably not. does that mean the PCs can spot it or otherwise discern its location? not necessarily. no more than they can hear a flee cough from 100 miles away or spot the atoms involved in a chemical reaction that is happening right next to them. the elemental isn't hiding, but that doesn't mean that any perception check to discern its location automatically succeeds, or even that it has a chance to succeed.

[Malifice]

uh-huh. so if the PCs ask for the location of their enemy, you must just tell them where it is unless that enemy is explicitly hiding and they fail to beat that enemy's perception check, right? i mean, that's what the rules say. doesn't matter if the person is a hundred miles away, unless they take a hide action, everyone in the world knows where they are. and, for that matter, everyone in the world has a chance to hear them whenever they talk about their evil plans too, right?

or, alternately, there comes a time when, hiding or not, you simply cannot perceive the creature. no matter how you look, there is no earth elemental to see while it is inside the ground (when it sticks an appendage out of the ground and smacks you with it, of course, you can see that just fine... and yes, react to it in whatever various ways you prefer).

there comes a time when, no matter how you listen, you simply will not hear a sound because it is either not there or you simply are not in a place where you can hear it. the elemental is passing through the ground without disturbing it. there is no moving pile of dirt to spot, no sound of moving rocks to hear, no rumbling to feel (rumbling would disturb the ground, and we know that whatever else happens, the elemental does not disturb the ground).

is the earth elemental hidden? probably not. does that mean the PCs can spot it or otherwise discern its location? not necessarily. no more than they can hear a flee cough from 100 miles away or spot the atoms involved in a chemical reaction that is happening right next to them. the elemental isn't hiding, but that doesn't mean that any perception check to discern its location automatically succeeds, or even that it has a chance to succeed.

Yeah, if the earth elemental isn't hidden, then I tell the PCs that something gives its presence away. Such as sound. It's not making any effort to be silent or to conceal it's location of its attacks (that's what the Hide action represents after all).

I'd happily grant it advantage on its stealth checks to hide (the solid nature of the ground lilely muffles sound somewhat) should it elect to use such an option (alternate hide actions with surpise atracks from below).

That said, earth elementals aren't noted for intelligence or subtlety. I'd personally have it 'hulk smash', but that's much more subjective. I'd also have it charge and smash the biggest creature its tremor sense picks up. Kinda fits with my assumption of its personality.

Rules wise re hidinf - I'd make the exact same ruling for a Shark attack against a PC treading water. The shark could dive down into the murky water, and make a stealth check to hide (possibly with advantage depending on the environment) before launching another devastating attack.

The Hide action represents the effort taken to obscure your location from your enemies. That's why it costs an action (even for the invisible, or enemies in total concealment or cover).

If the earth elemental had 2 levels of rogue, it could hide as a bonus action and attempt each round. It doesnt, so unless it wants to only Attack every other round, it will have to be content with getting readied actions each round in response to its subterraneanean attacks.

It'll still get advantage on its attacks due to the strategy notwithstanding its hide checks however.

That's how I'd rule it.

[SharkForce]

invisible creatures have to hide to have their location unknown against creatures that have other ways of detecting them (typically sound, but smell or simply observing physical evidence of their location is also an option for example).

they do no, for example, have to hide to remain undetected by people that are 10 miles away. they never have to hide to avoid being seen at all (they can't be seen, they're invisible, that's why enemies have disadvantage to hit them), they have to hide to avoid being detected.

if you have some means of detection that will let you detect an earth elemental that is moving through dirt that you cannot see through or smell through, leaving no physical evidence of its passage, and without disturbing the ground and therefore not making any noise, then sure, you can try to detect the earth elemental. most characters won't, though.

if you don't have any sense available to detect such a creature, you can no more attempt to perceive the earth elemental than you can attempt to perceive the earthworms that are likely to be in the ground, or the goblins that are 3 rooms away in the dungeon, or the BBEG who is sitting in his extraplanar palace.

[Malifice]

if you don't have any sense available to detect such a creature, you can no more attempt to perceive the earth elemental than you can attempt to perceive the earthworms that are likely to be in the ground

If you want to rule a 10' tall 1000+ kg Earth elemental as being as silent as an earthworm when it moves around, then go for it. If that how you imagine it, then it's your game.

In my mind, the EE makes noise as it moves (whether that's when it's moving around above ground or when it's gliding under it). A lot of noise. The Elemental is literally comprised of tons of rocks, crystals and stone grinding together. It makes nearly as much noise gliding under the ground as it does walking on top of it (minus the heavy footsteps).

Regardless of it displacing the earth it glides through as it moves, it's very composition (in my mind) makes it detectable as it glides around under the player characters - detectable enough that they are allowed to ready an action to make an attack when it's big earthy fists break the surface and try and swat them.

It can try and move quietly in order to launch a surprise attack - I would allow it to attempt the Hide action via a Stealth check on its turn (with advantage thanks to the muffling effect of the earth).

I again reiterate that I would just have it 'Hulk Smash' but that's more for personal fluff and flavor reasons.

[HoarsHalberd]

If it's not Hidden, the PC's know where it is (roughly) and can ready actions to strike it when it (or its hands) pop out from the ground.

That's the difference between being 'hidden' and between being invisible or heavily obscured. While all three grant advantage on attack rolls, they're not the same thing.

If it dips back beneath the ground, then the rules for unseen attackers could reasonably apply. All it has to do is move a foot and the players will have no idea what angle or direction the attack is coming from, nor who it is attacking. Whilst it is not technically "hidden" it will still gain advantage for attacking a target that cannot see it.

[GiantOctopodes]

I just want to point out that while underground, it cannot see its target, even if tremorsense lets it locate the target. As such, it is effectively blinded (and thus has disadvantage on the attack roll), which cancels out the advantage it gains from being an invisible attacker. It *must* emerge to prevent that disadvantage, which first, uses 10' of movement per turn to play whack a mole (reducing it to 20', so easily outrun) and second, means that it does *not* gain advantage as an unseen attacker. It may if it was hiding, but then per RAW it would be its Stealth check (to prevent signs of its passage, per PHB page 177, even if the Earth is not disturbed by its passage it may still make noise or leave other signs) opposed by your Perception checks. With its -1 stealth checks, I doubt it would often sneak up on you.

With that said, even then fighting an Earth Elemental in those conditions is bad news, and it's certainly not true that if it can attack you, you can attack it (if its reach is greater than your own, you're stuck, you can't use movement on its turn and grapple rules state that the creature must be within your reach). As such I must voice my agreement with posters earlier- the best thing to do in that scenario is run, and try to find more even ground on which to fight. Think Tremors and you'll have the right of it. High ground, worked stone, whatever you can get to.

[SharkForce]

earth glide does not imply the elemental is grinding it's joints together. but in this case at least, it's reasonably GM's discretion.

i'm just saying if the DM's rule is that the ONLY way for you to be impossible to detect is that you use the hide action, no matter what objects or distance is in between you and the thing you're trying to perceive, then i don't want them in charge of a game i'm playing, because that is so obviously not how it should work, and i don't want to find out what other stupid BS they're going to pull without warning.

also, nothing about tremorsense specifies whether it can be used in place of sight (which is unfortunate, perhaps someone should ask the sage), but i could easily see it going either way; you know the exact location of the creature, you should be able to target it no problem, especially if you're targeting the part that is touching the ground.

[GiantOctopodes]

earth glide does not imply the elemental is grinding it's joints together. but in this case at least, it's reasonably GM's discretion.

i'm just saying if the DM's rule is that the ONLY way for you to be impossible to detect is that you use the hide action, no matter what objects or distance is in between you and the thing you're trying to perceive, then i don't want them in charge of a game i'm playing, because that is so obviously not how it should work, and i don't want to find out what other stupid BS they're going to pull without warning.

also, nothing about tremorsense specifies whether it can be used in place of sight (which is unfortunate, perhaps someone should ask the sage), but i could easily see it going either way; you know the exact location of the creature, you should be able to target it no problem, especially if you're targeting the part that is touching the ground.

emphasis mine. I 100% agree with that statement. If a DM were to rule that an invisible, flying creature with a silence effect centered on it was able to be detected by, well, just about anything, whether hiding or not, I would find that extremely dubious, to say the least.

Yet tremorsense does not say that it is silent, nor does it say that there are no signs of its passage (maybe tremors which the party can hear, and though they don't automatically pinpoint like they would if they have tremorsense, that's where perception checks come in, which actually makes all the sense in the world to me, since otherwise how would they detect each other?) in the way that "Pass without trace" does, or anything of the sort. So I don't personally feel that's the kind of situation we're dealing with here. To say that there is no way to detect it, in this scenario to me, is granting Earth Glide powers not currently in the RAW.

In terms of tremorsense, note the following verbiage: "A monster with tremorsense can detect and pinpoint the origin of vibrations within a specific radius". Compare that to the rules on Blindsight, which state "A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius". Note the rules regarding unseen targets "When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see." The way I see that is per RAW, you automatically pinpoint the location, which helps you pop up in the right spot, but to say that it substitutes for sight is to also grant them blindsight in the same radius as their tremorsense, which especially doesn't fit when you note the Purple Worm, which has Tremorsense 60', and Blindsight 30'. Once again it would be adding abilities to the creature that don't exist by RAW.

[SharkForce]

tremorsense passes through the ground. blindsight works in open air.

so no, they would not be equivalent.