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ShaneMRoth
2015-07-16, 02:01 AM
House Rule: Gate Spells and Wishing Wells

A Wish granted by way of the Gate spell cost 25,000 gold pieces.

It is not possible to get free wishes by way of the Gate spell.

Wishes are never free.

While it is possible to get a creature to grant you wishes using the Gate spell, a player character who uses the Gate spell for this purpose has to pay the fair value of each Wish. (25,000 gp per Wish)

The character is permitted to Wish for a Candle of Invocation, for 25,000 gold pieces per candle.

A Wish granted by an Efreet is not capable of spell effects that require a higher XP cost than the 5,000 XP minimum cost that attaches to the Wish spell. Therefore, an Efreet is not able to grant Wishes that create magic items.

Using a Gate spell to compel a creature (an efreet, for example) to grant you a Wish qualifies as a contractual service.

From the Gate spell

Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

So, if you stop reading there, it looks like you are asking the efreet to perform an immediate task. He grants you three Wishes, you validate his parking, and back to the Elemental Plane of Fire he goes.

Easy peasy.

Until you consider the next line.


If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service.

Granting a Wish takes no more time that an immediate task.

However, granting a Wish qualifies as exacting a more involved form of service than an immediate task.

You are making the Efreet literally alter reality for you. Up to three times.

That is clearly more involved than an immediate task (it is "more involved" turned up to 11), and there is no reason for the efreet to be compelled to perform this task for free.

This constitutes a contractual service.

A fair trade is clearly appropriate.

The Wish has a market value of 25,000 gold pieces.

And the efreet is entitled to that fair value for each Wish he grants you.

So, if your character wants a series of Wishes from an efreet using a Gate spell, then she'd better be sure to bring her Visa. Because efreeti don't take American Express.

And if your character wants to pay 25,000 gold pieces for an 8,400 gold piece Candle of Invocation... well, it's her money... well, she is out of luck, because an efreet isn't exempt from XP costs associated with the Wish spell... he is unable to spend XP at all... that's why he can't use Wishes on his own behalf.

Renen
2015-07-17, 01:51 AM
Anything stopping the character from taking the money back after wish is granted?

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 02:04 AM
Anything stopping the character from taking the money back after wish is granted?

Uh... the fact that the Efreet is no longer there after the payment? After the service is complete and the payment is made, the Efreet returns to the Elemental Plane of Fire.

Renen
2015-07-17, 02:24 AM
Whats stopping me from just taking money after each wish? That way it will at best get away with money from only the last wish.
Or what's stopping me from using a magical compulsion to make it travel back to me on its own and give back the gold? Or from me scrying it, teleporting to where it is, and taking back the gold?

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 02:47 AM
Whats stopping me from just taking money after each wish? That way it will at best get away with money from only the last wish.
Or what's stopping me from using a magical compulsion to make it travel back to me on its own and give back the gold? Or from me scrying it, teleporting to where it is, and taking back the gold?

That's beyond the scope of this rule.

You are expected to pay the efreet 25 large per Wish immediately after the Wishes are granted.

If you want to track down the efreet later and rob his ass, that's a whole different encounter.

Renen
2015-07-17, 07:59 AM
So... What if I mind control him at the start, and say "when you are done granting my wishes, leave my payment for said wishes behind when you leave"

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 01:19 PM
So... What if I mind control him at the start, and say "when you are done granting my wishes, leave my payment for said wishes behind when you leave"

Uh... okay...

The terms of the Gate spell are binding on the caster

Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

You are signing a blank check, handing it to the DM, and saying... "I want you to railroad the bejeezus out of my character, spare no expense."

Do you really want to owe 75 large to the liege and master of an efreet? I wouldn't.

There's no such thing as a free Wish.

Efreet Wishes are, perhaps, the most expensive Wishes that can be granted.

Renen
2015-07-17, 01:29 PM
There's such a thing a Dweomerkeeper. It makes you able to convert a spell into an SLA. So unless I have to pay myself for casting wish, THAT would be free...

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 02:13 PM
There's such a thing a Dweomerkeeper. It makes you able to convert a spell into an SLA. So unless I have to pay myself for casting wish, THAT would be free...

Okay, I found some info on the Dweomerkeeper, but I'm unable to find how that Prestige class makes that conversion from a spell to an SLA.

Also, I haven't decided whether or not that class exists. Nor did I mention that I am using the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, or if Mystra is a deity in my campaign's pantheon.

So, it looks like you are already being too clever by half.

Your answer decides whether or not I allow the class at all, and even if I include the prestige class in my campaign, I don't have to let you play that class.

You say things now...

Bad Wolf
2015-07-17, 06:22 PM
Okay, I found some info on the Dweomerkeeper, but I'm unable to find how that Prestige class makes that conversion from a spell to an SLA.

Also, I haven't decided whether or not that class exists. Nor did I mention that I am using the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, or if Mystra is a deity in my campaign's pantheon.

So, it looks like you are already being too clever by half.

Your answer decides whether or not I allow the class at all, and even if I include the prestige class in my campaign, I don't have to let you play that class.

You say things now...

Complete Divine web enhancement has the update. It allows a spell to be cast as a supernatural ability, which gets rid of all costs.

Renen
2015-07-17, 06:43 PM
I'm not playing in your campaign I am discussing possible rules interactions. You may decide it doesn't exist in your campaign, but I thought we are discussing RAW. On these forums this is taken to mean that any 1st party material is allowed. So this is a question of how your house rule interact with a Dweomerkeeper. Saying that you don't allow Dweomerkeeper in your campaign is off topic since I want to know how your house rule interacts with a published 1st party class.

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 06:52 PM
I thought we are discussing RAW.

You are mistaken.

This is the Homebrew Design sub-forum.

Renen
2015-07-17, 06:59 PM
Yeh, but aside from your house rule everything else is raw. So I am interested how your modified rule (houserule) interacts with the rest of the rules of D&D.

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 07:26 PM
Yeh, but aside from your house rule everything else is raw. So I am interested how your modified rule (houserule) interacts with the rest of the rules of D&D.

Anything that goes beyond the scope of this house rule is beyond the scope of this thread.

Renen
2015-07-17, 07:32 PM
So... You don't actually care to address how "wish has a value that MUST be paid" will interact with the rest of the rules?

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 07:50 PM
So... You don't actually care to address how "wish has a value that MUST be paid" will interact with the rest of the rules?

Okay... I'll address it.

Three wishes?

75,000 gold pieces.

Payable immediately.

If you find a way not to pay at the time of service, you still owe 75,000 gold pieces.

And you will pay.

The DM will exercise the fullness of his discretion to insure that payment is made, one way or the other.

And if you wait to pay, then I will deem it a loan, and you will then owe the Vig (interest) for the loan. I'll wait until your character actually succeeds in getting out of immediate payment before I decide what the Vig is.

But the Vig will be really, really, really large.

Renen
2015-07-17, 08:43 PM
No, I mean you say that wish has a cost that must be paid.
What if I AM a Dweomerkeeper, and use my class ability to cast Wish as an SLA? Do I have to pay 25k per SLA wish that I cast myself, or not?

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 08:46 PM
No, I mean you say that wish has a cost that must be paid.
What if I AM a Dweomerkeeper, and use my class ability to cast Wish as an SLA? Do I have to pay 25k per SLA wish that I cast myself, or not?

I still don't know how the Dweomerkeeper can mechanically cast a Wish as an SLA.

What am I missing?

EDIT: Are you referring to the Supernatural Spell ability?

AvatarVecna
2015-07-17, 09:19 PM
I still don't know how the Dweomerkeeper can mechanically cast a Wish as an SLA.

What am I missing?

EDIT: Are you referring to the Supernatural Spell ability?

Yes. That is what they're referring to.

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 09:47 PM
Yes. That is what they're referring to.

I don't have access to that class...

I looked for a description of the class online and found this clause at the end of the Supernatural Spell ability...


Spells which Cost XP upon casting still cost XP to use as a Supernatural Spell

So, if that is the case... I might allow it, if I allowed the class at all (big if...)

Renen
2015-07-17, 09:49 PM
Well the thing with discussing mechanics on these forums is very very rarely about "if I allow it" but more do you think it works? It's pretty known that dweomerkeeper is strong and has a good chance of being banned.

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 09:57 PM
Well the thing with discussing mechanics on these forums is very very rarely about "if I allow it" but more do you think it works? It's pretty known that dweomerkeeper is strong and has a good chance of being banned.

This being the Homebrew Forum, its about what is allowed at the table.

Regardless, I'd have to be out of my tree to allow a character to dodge the XP cost of spells for any reason. Not just Wish.

Morcleon
2015-07-17, 10:44 PM
I don't have access to that class...

I looked for a description of the class online and found this clause at the end of the Supernatural Spell ability...



So, if that is the case... I might allow it, if I allowed the class at all (big if...)

That clause is a homebrew fix for Therafim (which is not always reliable). When I checked the book, this is the text I found (bolded for emphasis).


Supernatural Spell (Su): At 4th level, the dweomerkeeper is so attuned to the fabric of magic that she can manifest spell effects with almost no effort whatsoever. Once per day as a standard action, she can use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard action as a supernatural ability. The spell chosen must be one that is currently available to the dweomerkeeper (that is, one that she has prepared or that she knows and has a spell slot of the appropriate level available to cast), but she can decide at the moment of casting to use this ability. The spell functions as it normally would and is expended normally, but the dweomerkeeper does not require any components, does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and ignores the target's spell resistance, just as if she were using a supernatural ability instead of a spell. At every even-numbered level after the 4th, the dweomerkeeper gains one additional use of this ability per day.

eggynack
2015-07-17, 11:07 PM
This being the Homebrew Forum, its about what is allowed at the table.

Not really. House rules are generally for universal rather than personal use, unless you're asking about how a house rule will work in your own games. You have the power to add additional house rules, or alter this one, to make the house rule you have functional in more scenarios, but that does raise the complexity level some. It is a core assumption of house rules that anything that isn't stated as a house rule follows the normal rules of the game.

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 11:07 PM
That clause is a homebrew fix for Therafim (which is not always reliable). When I checked the book, this is the text I found (bolded for emphasis).


So, there is no XP cost for spells prepared this way?

That settles it. This class doesn't play.

Renen
2015-07-17, 11:28 PM
As I understand it homebrew section is to discuss homebrew and how it would fit into the rest of the game. So sure, you can rule that you won't let a certain class be in games you run, but asking how it interacts with your homebrew is a valid question I'd think.

And as eggy said, since you haven't stated beforehand that this is banned, or even stated that this is working in a hypothetical game that is run by you, not just as a suggested homebrew for anyone to use, it's logical to assume that all game rules apply by default unless you explicitly state otherwise (which you did, but after I brought up the class)

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 11:29 PM
As I understand it homebrew section is to discuss homebrew and how it would fit into the rest of the game. So sure, you can rule that you won't let a certain class be in games you run, but asking how it interacts with your homebrew is a valid question I'd think.

The Wishes are never free clause?

It plays.

Renen
2015-07-17, 11:32 PM
I asked how the thing about wishes never been free interacts with a thing that says "any spell cast this way is free". It was a valid question, because if anyone wants to use this proposed homebrew in their game, they might want the answer due to this possibly coming up in their game.

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 11:35 PM
I asked how the thing about wishes never been free interacts with a thing that says "any spell cast this way is free". It was a valid question, because if anyone wants to use this proposed homebrew in their game, they might want the answer due to this possibly coming up in their game.

The Core yields to the House Rule.

Find a way to pay for the Wish.

And while you're here feel free to take a look at my Rewrite for Unarmed Strikes...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428067-REWRITE-Unarmed-Strikes-P-E-A-C-H

Renen
2015-07-17, 11:38 PM
Ok. That's fine. If you say the homebrew supersedes other abilities that is fine.

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 11:41 PM
Ok. That's fine. If you say the homebrew supersedes other abilities that is fine.

Bear in mind that if the Core didn't yield to a House Rule, the House Rule would never come into play.

Renen
2015-07-17, 11:46 PM
I think you are confusion core and RAW. Core are the 3 "core" books of D&D: Players handbook, dungeon masters guide and monster manual 1.
Raw are the written rules. What you want to sag is that written rules are superseded by the houserule.

Also, the reason I asked for a clarification was because the rule seems to have the intent of never having wishes be free, but it does not actually say that other abilities that explicitly make spells have no cost are not able to negate the cost of wish. So I just clarified that, and you said that houserule would negate those abilities that make wish free. No more questions.

/thread

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-18, 12:16 AM
I think you are confusion core and RAW. Core are the 3 "core" books of D&D: Players handbook, dungeon masters guide and monster manual 1.
Raw are the written rules. What you want to sag is that written rules are superseded by the houserule.

Also, the reason I asked for a clarification was because the rule seems to have the intent of never having wishes be free, but it does not actually say that other abilities that explicitly make spells have no cost are not able to negate the cost of wish. So I just clarified that, and you said that houserule would negate those abilities that make wish free. No more questions.

/thread

Done and done.

While you are here, take a glance at my House Rule for the Fabricate Spell...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427522-An-Artisanal-Fabricate-Spell

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-27, 07:36 PM
An update based on new information about Wishes, Magic Item Creation, and Experience Points.