Ranged into melee touch

[Vincent Haile]

Hi im playing a spell warp sniper in a new campaign well a rouge wizard so far.

I've got a ton of zeroth level spells that are all different ranged touch attacks. But at times i would like to go into melee
to get sneak attack with flank. so i've got a couple of questions, i've looked around and can't find answers.

1) Can i use a ranged touch attack as a melee touch, it seems logcial to me that you should be able to.
2) Can a ranged touch attack cast in melee sneak attack with flank?
3) is there a 0'th level melee touch spell?
4) can you hold to charge on ranged spell, for threatening purposes?

[Urpriest]

Hi im playing a spell warp sniper in a new campaign well a rouge wizard so far.

I've got a ton of zeroth level spells that are all different ranged touch attacks. But at times i would like to go into melee
to get sneak attack with flank. so i've got a couple of questions, i've looked around and can't find answers.

1) Can i use a ranged touch attack as a melee touch, it seems logcial to me that you should be able to.

No, nor does it seem logical.



2) Can a ranged touch attack cast in melee sneak attack with flank?

No, you can't flank with ranged attacks.



3) is there a 0'th level melee touch spell?

One that deals damage? The only one I'm aware of is Inflict Minor Wounds.



4) can you hold to charge on ranged spell, for threatening purposes?

No, because you can't make touch attacks with it in the first place.

[Ashtagon]

#1

RAW: The standard sneak attack can be applied to melee attacks or to ranged attacks out to 30 feet. You don't need to touch your target with the spell to get a sneak attack with it (assuming the spell is a valid way to get a sneak attack damage activated in the first place). Even if your DM doesn't allow you to do an actual melee touch attack to deliver the spell, you can always cast the spell at a range of one inch. The attack roll would have the usual ranged attack modifiers though.

#2

RAW: As long as the spell is cast from 30 feet or less, deals hit point damage, targets a creature with a discernible anatomy, can be targeted at a specific "vulnerable location" on the creature's body, and has an attack roll, sneak attack damage can apply; but you can't flank. This extra damage is considered "precision damage" (Rules Compendium p42). It's not clear what the damage type is for this bonus damage is when the spell deals, for example, fire damage.

House Rule: I would consider the damage type to be the same as the base spell's damage type.

#3

Not that I am aware of.

#4

Ranged spells with attack rolls cannot be held unless specifically stated in their description. Only spells with a range of touch (or touch combined with something else) can be held.

[Vincent Haile]

thanks a bunch, this is not sarcasm i appriciate the quick replies

[Ashtagon]

In order to threaten a square, you need to be considered to be armed. Unfortunately, holding a touch spell, even a touch spell that deals damage, does not count as armed. As such, you can't threaten squares while holding a touch spell.

This comic illustrates why a held touch spell can't threaten: http://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1758

[OldTrees1]

Question:

If you are flanking a foe(including having a melee threat) could you sneak attack with a ranged attack against the flanked foe as a result of them being flanked(via your melee threat + your buddy)?

[Ashtagon]

Question:

If you are flanking a foe(including having a melee threat) could you sneak attack with a ranged attack against the flanked foe as a result of them being flanked(via your melee threat + your buddy)?

If your ally is threatening your enemy, you get a +2 attack bonus with a melee attack (including melee weapons, unarmed strikes, natural weapons, melee touch attacks, and spells with a range of touch). You yourself do not need to be threatening that enemy to receive this bonus.

If you have a melee weapon in hand to threaten with (or if your unarmed strikes can threaten, either through monk levels or through appropriate feats), then you would flank your enemy. You could then, at a range of five feet, cast a spell that has an attack roll and claim the sneak attack bonus (and the flank bonus to attack rolls). Normal attack roll modifiers would apply as if a ranged attack, including any penalty for shooting into a melee (-4 to hit). Combining both modifiers gives a -2 penalty.

Ranged attack spells can't normally be held. That means they have to be loosed as soon as the casting is done, unlike a touch spell which can be held in hand and then you duck and weave in melee looking for an opportunity to slap the guy. That's why ranged spells are less accurate in melee than touch spells.

[ShaneMRoth]

1) Can i use a ranged touch attack as a melee touch, it seems logcial to me that you should be able to.

No. Even if you are standing close enough to make a melee touch attack, you still resolve the ranged touch attack as a ranged attack. You are clearly at point blank range, however.


2) Can a ranged touch attack cast in melee sneak attack with flank?

Flanking is all about the melee attack, so... no.


3) is there a 0'th level melee touch spell?

Touch of Fatigue. I'm sure there are others.


4) can you hold to charge on ranged spell, for threatening purposes?

EDIT: I swung and I missed on this one. I agree with Urpriest's downthread answer to this question.

You can hold on to a ranged spell, but you don't threaten with it.

[QUOTE]In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.


That rule doesn't explicitly exclude ranged touch attack, so the rules allow for you to hold the charge.

But no one threatens with a ranged attack, so it isn't possible to threaten with a ranged touch attack. Still point blank range, though.

[Urpriest]

You can hold on to a ranged spell, but you don't threaten with it.



That rule doesn't explicitly exclude ranged touch attack, so the rules allow for you to hold the charge.

But no one threatens with a ranged attack, so it isn't possible to threaten with a ranged touch attack. Still point blank range, though.

Touch spells themselves explicitly exclude ranged touch attacks, Touch is its own Range category distinct from the categories applicable to ranged touch spells.

[Vincent Haile]

Touch of Fatigue. I'm sure there are others.




But no one threatens with a ranged attack, so it isn't possible to threaten with a ranged touch attack. Still point blank range, though.[/QUOTE]

Well it is a melee touch 0'th level spell, i'm sorry if i wasn't clear enough, i wan't to sneak attack from flank with 0'th level spells, and you can only gain sneak attack damage on spells that deal damage, tho abillty damage counts i don't think fatigue does

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take the Clap of Thunder reserve feat in Complete Mage, and prepare something like Great Thunderclap or Sound Lance in Spell Compendium to use it.

[Vincent Haile]

Take the Clap of Thunder reserve feat in Complete Mage, and prepare something like Great Thunderclap or Sound Lance in Spell Compendium to use it.

this seems like a very good option thanks, didn't know about reserve feats

[ShaneMRoth]

Touch spells themselves explicitly exclude ranged touch attacks, Touch is its own Range category distinct from the categories applicable to ranged touch spells.

Urpriest is correct, and I was wrong. I have edited my upthread post to reflect this.

You can't, by RAW, hold onto the Charge of ranged touch attacks.

(I would allow it as a house rule. But the caster would have to pantomime holding a pretend ranged weapon like a hand crossbow in his hand, per the Rule of Cool.)