All-Martial Classes in a Non-Vancian Low-Magic Setting

[Dusk Raven]

Posted here since it seemed like the best place.

So, long story short, I am investing myself in a setting where humans are incapable of magic on their own accord. The details are in the spoiler below, but you can skip them if you like.

So, I was largely inspired by Final Fantasy VII's Materia. Even though I think FF7 is an okay game, I rather liked the Materia system. Essentially, spells and some other abilities were determined by Materia equipped to armor and weapons. Thus, you could equip anyone you please with healing spells, offensive spells, or whatever skills and traits you thought appropriate.

This is the inspiration for my own system. Humans are incapable of magic on their own accord, but magical, mysterious crystals called Aethers exist. When merged with a person's flesh, they form a bond that grants the host some of the Aether's powers, provided the being can supply the magical energy required. The powers granted depends on the Aether and the location it is placed: wrist, spine, or heart.

Other forms of magic likely exist as well - supernatural creatures need to come from somewhere, after all. I suspect the primary sources of that will be "divine" magic - from the gods or other beings of power - and "wild" magic, which is that fun sort of magic which remains mysterious, defies examination, and seems almost... alive. But Aethers will be the primary source of magic for humans in this setting.

I'll likely write up a thread in the Homebrew forum for how exactly I plan on implementing all this...

Point is, magic is an entirely external force, and more importantly, anyone can use it given the right circumstances. Yes, none of this silly Squishy Wizard trope and "you can't be great at magic and swordplay" stuff that pops up a lot. All of the characters will start out entirely martial but may gain magical abilities as the campaign progresses. This does, however, limit my options in a D&D 3.5 campaign.

Obviously, the spellcasting classes are right out the window - and there's quite frankly a lot more than one wold expect. Bards, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, Sorcerers, and Wizards are now off-limits. Monks are gone too - they may not cast spells, but they're definitely supernatural, especially when they start using things like Abundant Step, a spell-like ability. That leaves... Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues in the base rules. Not many options there.

Thus, I considered going to d20 Modern instead, augmented with the d20 Past supplement. This seemed a logical choice since I was disregarding Vancian magic utterly. Now, there's only six classes in d20 Modern and they are rather similar, but I rather like their simplicity and the fact that they don't shoehorn characters into particular roles or combat styles, at least not as much as they do in D&D.

However, on further reflection, there's not quite as much choice or depth in the d20 Modern base classes. Their class features are few and simple, and there's not enough advanced classes to really add variety to that. I thought about Pathfinder as well - and quite frankly, I love Pathfinder a lot more that D&D 3.5. While the base classes are the same, there's so much more variety and options within those classes, not to mention a number of sensible rules changes. But I still don't have many options for base classes in general. Thus, I turned back to D&D 3.5 - namely, the many supplemental materials.

If we add the various non-supernatural additional base classes from the various splatbooks, we can add Knight, Marshal, Swashbuckler, and Scout to the list. And Samurai, but honestly those are just Fighters with their feats chosen for them (under very specific circumstances no less) and with Khai Smite. At best. Anyway, those four classes add a bit of variety. In addition, a few books here and there - Unearthed Arcana, Player's Handbook II, and Complete Champion - offer yet more options that approximates Pathfinder's. In particular, Complete Champion offers an option for Rangers that removes their spellcasting and gives them some more feats (Complete Warrior can also take away a Ranger's spellcasting, but it just gives them other supernatural abilities in exchange), so using that we can add Ranger to the list as well.

So, I ask you, Giant in the Playground forums, what other options am I missing? Without knowing the details of the eventual supernatural powers, are these classes and options viable?

[Nifft]

Hmm.

Monks?

Scouts?

Marshals?

Warblades?

Warforged Warlords?

Generic Expert & Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) classes?

Ideally, you'd have at least one kind of PrC for characters who wanted to focus on magic use.

[Dusk Raven]

Hmm.

Monks?

Scouts?

Marshals?

Warblades?

Warforged Warlords?

Generic Expert & Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) classes?

Ideally, you'd have at least one kind of PrC for characters who wanted to focus on magic use.

Already mentioned Monks, Scouts, and Marshals. Monks are supernatural, Scouts and Marshals are okay (though both have some odd features that I wonder about how they actually work). I admit I didn't think of Warblades or any of the Tome of Battle stuff, but that's because I'm not really familiar with it and it does seem to have a sort of pseudo-supernatural vibe. I don't have a problem with that - and I think the various techniques make for more interesting combat than running up to an enemy and full attacking, but I'm just not familiar with them.

This isn't Eberron so Warforged are out of the question, and they're supernatural besides.

I rejected the generic classes because then you only have two classes, without the in-depth class features of the D&D core classes and with less variety than the d20 Modern classes.

And yeah, a PrC would be good, but that'd be the territory of homebrew stuff since we're completely abandoning Vancian magic here. A worthwhile endeavor on my part, but a topic for another thread.

[Nifft]

I admit I didn't think of Warblades or any of the Tome of Battle stuff, but that's because I'm not really familiar with it and it does seem to have a sort of pseudo-supernatural vibe. I don't have a problem with that - and I think the various techniques make for more interesting combat than running up to an enemy and full attacking, but I'm just not familiar with them.

I highly recommend reading up on them.

Honestly I wouldn't expect Fighter to be used except as a mix-in for Rogue and Barbarian. It's not a stand-alone class. Knight and Samurai don't seem viable at all.

That means the actual viable options for PURE martial would be:

Rogue
Rogue / Swashbuckler (with Daring Outlaw)
Rogue / Fighter
Barbarian
Barbarian / Fighter
Rogue / Barbarian
Scout
Scout / Barbarian

... that's not a lot of character concepts, and many of them look very similar. Like, a Barbarian with 4 levels of Fighter isn't going to have tactics which are all that different from a regular Barbarian.

- - -

If I were making a "no Vancian caster" setting, it would include a bunch of lower-tier magical classes:
- Tome of Battle classes
- Binders (Tome of Magic)
- Totemists (Magic of Incarnum)
- Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts
- Rogue, Scout, Fighter, Barbarian
- Swashbuckler, plus that one feat which makes them non-horrible ("Daring Outlaw"), and maybe they get the feat for free
- Some kind of homebrew Ranger, homebrew Marshal, and homebrew Bard which lack spellcasting but are otherwise buffed up from the baseline. Maybe just merge the Marshal and the Bard. Hmm.

Those classes would also inform the antagonists: you'll expect the PCs to fight a lot of evil NPC Warlocks, for example, and the servitors of the local Dragon-Lord might be Dragonfire Adepts (because Sorcerers don't exist).

[Ashtagon]

You need Sword & Sorcery's Iron Heroes. It's an oldie but a goodie. It creates a coherent rules system that has nine exclusively "mundane" classes, and no (okay, one optional) arcane classes.

[Curmudgeon]

There's a non-sucky Ranger version without magic in Complete Champion. With class variants, ACFs, and substitution levels you can trade away many/most magical class features for something else. So why not make all of that available to your players? At the end, anything that's left that's Supernatural, Spell-like, or otherwise magical is simply nonfunctional.

Let's take the Paladin. The Holy Warrior alternative class feature (ACF) (Complete Champion, page 49) at level 1 replaces spellcasting with bonus feats. Also at level 1 the Hunter of Fiends Paladin variant (Dragon # 349, page 93) replaces Supernatural smite evil with Extraordinary favored enemy (Outsider: Evil) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#favoredEnemy) and the Track (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#track) feat, and swaps Knowledge (royalty and nobility) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm) for Knowledge (the planes) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm) as a class skill. The Power of the Self variant (Dragon # 347, page 91) trades (retroactively, if necessary)
divine grace @ level 2
divine health @ level 3
special mount @ level 5 for Fighter Bonus feats every 4 levels.

[marphod]

You need Sword & Sorcery's Iron Heroes. It's an oldie but a goodie. It creates a coherent rules system that has nine exclusively "mundane" classes, and no (okay, one optional) arcane classes.

IIRC, it is based on the 3.0 SRD rather than 3.5, but that's not a huge issue (and I may be mis-recalling).

Iron heroes is awesome. and presents an alternate way to make martial characters relevant at high levels from ToB.

[Ashtagon]

IIRC, it is based on the 3.0 SRD rather than 3.5, but that's not a huge issue (and I may be mis-recalling).

Iron heroes is awesome. and presents an alternate way to make martial characters relevant at high levels from ToB.

Looking at my copy, the skill list relates more to 3.5 than 3.0 (eg it has "Survival" not "Wilderness Lore"). However, Iron Heroes has a new concept called skill groups. This is a collection of closely related skills (eg Hide and Move Silently are part of the Stealth skill group; Bluff, Disguise, Perform, and Sleight of Hand are part of the Theatrics skill group). If your class has access to a skill group as one of its class features you can buy up the skill group as a whole for the same price you'd normally buy up a single skill. This skill groups concept replaces the class skill / cross-class skill concept.

The other major difference is that Knowledge and Perform are single skills (Craft and Profession remain as groups of closely related skills). For these two skills, each skill point represents not just a higher level of skill, but an additional speciality. For example, 5 ranks in Knowledge in Iron Heroes is the equivalent of having 5 ranks in 5 different Knowledge skills of your choice in 3.x.pf.

[Telonius]

Kind of an outside-the-box suggestion, but ...

Everyone is a Gestalt Incarnum class, but Soulmelds don't exist. Instead, the individual soulmelds are turned into into magic items (these would be your Aethers) that can be powered by the essentia that each character gets from the Gestalt.

EDIT: For your base classes, would Ninja be too supernatural-ish?

[Sagetim]

IIRC, it is based on the 3.0 SRD rather than 3.5, but that's not a huge issue (and I may be mis-recalling).

Iron heroes is awesome. and presents an alternate way to make martial characters relevant at high levels from ToB.

I've been in all of one iron heroes campaign. We betrayed everyone who hired us to do anything (Because usually it was more coercion to do something than actually being hired) which caused the DM to have to end each session early because we took the path he hadn't prepared for every game session. In the end, we wound up sailing across some water and betraying the lizardmen who were hibernating in the boats and relying on us to smuggle them across. A lot of our betrayals didn't even involve bluff checks, because usually we were agreeing to do something when asked, then changed our minds along the way. If I recall correctly, the GM gave up at that point and we just stopped playing that campaign.


But yeah, Iron Heroes does a great job of having classes that don't rely on magic for anything. Including feats to let you make traps and poison and so on. I greatly enjoyed the, what was it...man at arms? It was a class that had an ability that was 'use this ability once per day to get access to a feat until you use this ability again to change it out' or something. And I think it got more uses later on too.

[Arbane]

One thing to consider is that you'll need to come up with a different way to handle healing - with no Clerics around, hitpoint loss will add up fast, and most heroes can't take a week off to recover after every fight.

[noob]

Crusaders hating trees(I hate him I swing my sword at my wooden opponent and I protect my allies from it by healing one with my battle maneuver) solves healing.(also there is no druids to kill your crusader chopping forests because "They surely want to assassinate people when you are not looking at them")

[Arbane]

Crusaders hating trees(I hate him I swing my sword at my wooden opponent and I protect my allies from it by healing one with my battle maneuver) solves healing.

Lumberjack Healing? I know some people heal with herbs, but whole trees is kinda new. :smallamused:

[noob]

Yes there is a battle maneuver who heals an ally when you hit an opponent so lumberjack healing have a sense(But is crazy to role-play and probably should not be done)

[Sagetim]

I think as a GM I would just say no to letting you hit trees to use the crusader's healing stance/maneuvers to heal your allies. It technically works, rules as written, but it's so cheesy. Also, I'm pretty sure you would look demented to anyone watching, even if it worked to heal them. And while it could lead to the players starting a healing cult based around hitting trees or wild life, it's the kind of thing I would have to discourage as a DM.

Further, aren't those maneuvers and stances supernatural in nature? Which means you probably wouldn't be allowed to pick them in this setting.

[Curmudgeon]

Marshal (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) Auras are Extraordinary. You can render a lot of support to party members without magic. You're still going to need some tree choppers to heal people without touching them.

[Sagetim]

Oh right, Trees are treated as objects unless awakened, which means they don't have an alignment component, which means Crusader's Strike (for example) won't work on them.

Revitalizing Strike specifies that the target has to pose a direct threat to you (in addition to the alignment restriction) so that too is nixed from hitting trees for hp.

Strike of Righteous Vitality is amazing, but it has the same restriction as Revitalizing Strike.

Martial Spirit (the stance) specifies successful melee strikes, rather than having to hit a target with a different alignment component. So this could technically work against trees. That's 2 hp per hit to yourself or an ally within 30 feet.

But that's also assuming that the DM allows you to take anything from devoted spirit at all, or even the crusader class. The description of Devoted Spirit implies that the manuevers and stances are based on spiritual power and devotion, so while they may not be specifically supernatural, they have a magical sounding fluff.

Crusaders themselves are described as people who have heard a call and serve an ideal (similar to a paladin or cleric, which, given the setting might invalidate them as an option entirely).

[noob]

I did read again and while there is no proof that it is SU(and that they say that a maneuver is EXT unless noted otherwise) it says that the opponent has to be directly threatening you and your allies(and to have one component of its alignment different of yours) meaning it does not works with trees but it might work if you find a boar and taunt him and things of this kind but it is really a lot harder and dangerous and is still very silly.

[Sagetim]

I did read again and while there is no proof that it is SU(and that they say that a maneuver is EXT unless noted otherwise) it says that the opponent has to be directly threatening you and your allies(and to have one component of its alignment different of yours) meaning it does not works with trees but it might work if you find a boar and taunt him and things of this kind but it is really a lot harder and dangerous and is still very silly.

well, as I mentioned, the stance might technically work since it just specifies hitting with attacks, but the good ones all require 'real' opponents. Which could lead to an entirely different kind of healing cult based around gladiatorial combat to heal nobles and other privileged individuals.

[noob]

The best one says "like the heal spell" and so the healing effect is magical for the best one because it simulate the heal spell while the average one says "heals 3d6 + Martial Level(up to 15)" and so is not magical since it is written nowhere it is.
But otherwise crusader seems to be the less magical class in TOB: All his class features are EXT and all his maneuvers and stances are EXT the only magic stuff is the healing effect of the superior healing strike.
Also it is the faith of the crusader who grants his powers not his god.

[Dusk Raven]

Kind of an outside-the-box suggestion, but ...

Everyone is a Gestalt Incarnum class, but Soulmelds don't exist. Instead, the individual soulmelds are turned into into magic items (these would be your Aethers) that can be powered by the essentia that each character gets from the Gestalt.

EDIT: For your base classes, would Ninja be too supernatural-ish?

Not sure about Incarnum, but it sounds interesting. I haven't read the book but I've played in a Gestalt campaign with one player who used the Totemist. Also, I respect D&D's attempt to create its own magic system. I don't know if it'd work for my setting, since I already have in mind specific rules for how the Aethers work, but it's certainly an idea.

As for Ninjas, well, they're mostly okay as far as magic goes, except for the various Ki abilities. Most of them are subtle, except for the one that turns you invisible. Which later becomes the ability to turn ethereal.


Meanwhile, I looked up Iron Heroes. It's AMAZING. Seriously, they manage to add all these options to purely mundane combat, including a number of skill checks and other challenges to help you in battle, mostly involving using the environment to your advantage. I do think it's a strong contender, possibly even moreso than d20 Past. My only problem is that my Aetherverse is intended to be a Renaissance-esque setting, largely because it's something I've never done before and I'm inclining towards an Age of Exploration vibe, while Iron Heroes assumes a young setting where civilization is pretty much just trying to get established. That's fine - indeed, my favorite homebrew setting of mine has that same sort of feel - but it's not necessarily what I'm going for. Shouldn't be too hard to homebrew guns into the setting - firearms of that period weren't very good, were generally used in massed armies, and aren't the kind of things heroes would use for their main weapon. Or I can simply modify my ideas.

[Taveena]

Warblade, for what it's worth, only has (Ex) abilities, with about the most ridiculous options they have being "resist effects through incredible focus" and "full attack twice in one turn".

[Krazzman]

Things to consider:

Alternate Class Features /Homebrewing to get rid of magic (looking at ranger/paladin spellless variants or similar).

A few classes from Pathfinder. (Brawler and maybe Investigator from Advanced Class Guide). Maybe even looking at a Qinggong Monk (archetype can trade nearly all abilities for others in a list that can be activated by ki... might fit and you can trade out the supernatural/spelllike stuff).

"Second Wind". In SWSE, 4th Edition and some other games where a dedicated healer is missing a second wind mechanic might be useful to outright needed.

Maybe opening up to some magical effects/events. Aether infused beings. To allow a Warlock with a smaller invocation list or similar.

Also as others had said: Tome of Battle and Magic of Incarnum should be really helpful for this idea of a campaign.

One "aether focused" Prestige Class could possibly be constructed out of Totemis/Incarnate or PrC of MoI.

Good luck.

[marphod]

Meanwhile, I looked up Iron Heroes. It's AMAZING. Seriously, they manage to add all these options to purely mundane combat, including a number of skill checks and other challenges to help you in battle, mostly involving using the environment to your advantage. I do think it's a strong contender, possibly even moreso than d20 Past. My only problem is that my Aetherverse is intended to be a Renaissance-esque setting, largely because it's something I've never done before and I'm inclining towards an Age of Exploration vibe, while Iron Heroes assumes a young setting where civilization is pretty much just trying to get established. That's fine - indeed, my favorite homebrew setting of mine has that same sort of feel - but it's not necessarily what I'm going for. Shouldn't be too hard to homebrew guns into the setting - firearms of that period weren't very good, were generally used in massed armies, and aren't the kind of things heroes would use for their main weapon. Or I can simply modify my ideas.

I've actually usually seen the game played in a post-apocalyptic fantasy world that was DnD-esque, but then got abandoned by the Gods/Magic stopped working/being reliable more often than any other setting.

Given some of the classes rely upon late middle age/early Renaissance era tech (plate armor, heavy crossbows, etc.), it should work fine.

There also is, or at least was, a vibrant Iron Heroes community online. I keep hoping that they release an updated version based off of Pathfinder-esque rules.

So sayeth Mike Mearls (creator of Iron Heroes)

You are not your magic weapon and armor. You are not your spell buffs. You are not how much gold you have, or how many times you've been raised from the dead. When a Big Bad Demon snaps your sword in two, you do not cry because that was your holy avenger. You leap onto its back, climb up to its head, and punch it in the eye, then get a new damn sword off of the next humanoid you headbutt to death.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Use Tome of Battle. Use it for everything. Maybe even add homebrew disciplines and classes. (Age of Warriors (http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/) is a pretty reputable collection). Why? Firstly, it's a fun system that makes martial types actually interesting to play, and lets you get a bit more of a distinct feel to various face-stabbers. But-- and this is the kicker-- there are also explicitly supernatural schools (Desert Wind and Shadow Hand in the book; many more online). That gives you a super-easy way to add magic to anyone: grant bonus supernatural maneuvers known.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I was considering running a low-magic game. Not no-magic like yours, not that far... (Rangers and Paladins and Monks are fine, Bards and Psychic Warriors with reduced casting are too, etc..) But I wrote down some rules ideas based off Legend of Dragoon to deal with healing in such a setting.

Fast Healing: On any round a living creature at 0 or more hp takes a only total defense action or no more than a move action (including no swift actions on his turn; free actions are generally ok), he heals 10% of his maximum hp back, rounding down. This heals an equal amount of non-lethal damage.

Ability Healing: Creatures recover 1 point of ability damage every hour, and may choose which score to apply the healing to. A creature can heal 1 point of ability drain each day after resting by making a fortitude save (use the original DC, the appropriate spell save DC, or if nothing else fits use DC 10 + ½ HD + cha modifier of the creature that caused it), choosing which score to apply the healing to. If the creature is receiving long-term care and rests the entire day, double these amounts.

Total Defense: When using total defense, the creature still threatens Attacks of Opportunity, and can heal (see above). Until the start of his next turn, he is immune to any conditions (listed in condition summary) inflicted upon him except for those caused by hp or ability damage or drain. Any conditions afflicting him before he used total defense continue to effect him normally. The creature may take total defense as a standard action, but only if limited to only standard actions.

Still doesn't cover dealing with lots of status effects, but then again, I left some spellcasting in for my plans. You really do need to address how to cure blindness, being petrified, etc...

[bekeleven]

What is your desired tier? What power level do you want?

Without magic you're shooting for tier 3, 4, or 5, or possibly 3-4 or 4-5.

Rather than just shouting nonmagical things at you, I'd like to give you something that suits your design goals. How powerful should humans be?

[Dusk Raven]

I was considering running a low-magic game. Not no-magic like yours, not that far... (Rangers and Paladins and Monks are fine, Bards and Psychic Warriors with reduced casting are too, etc..) But I wrote down some rules ideas based off Legend of Dragoon to deal with healing in such a setting.

Fast Healing: On any round a living creature at 0 or more hp takes a only total defense action or no more than a move action (including no swift actions on his turn; free actions are generally ok), he heals 10% of his maximum hp back, rounding down. This heals an equal amount of non-lethal damage.

Ability Healing: Creatures recover 1 point of ability damage every hour, and may choose which score to apply the healing to. A creature can heal 1 point of ability drain each day after resting by making a fortitude save (use the original DC, the appropriate spell save DC, or if nothing else fits use DC 10 + ½ HD + cha modifier of the creature that caused it), choosing which score to apply the healing to. If the creature is receiving long-term care and rests the entire day, double these amounts.

Total Defense: When using total defense, the creature still threatens Attacks of Opportunity, and can heal (see above). Until the start of his next turn, he is immune to any conditions (listed in condition summary) inflicted upon him except for those caused by hp or ability damage or drain. Any conditions afflicting him before he used total defense continue to effect him normally. The creature may take total defense as a standard action, but only if limited to only standard actions.

Still doesn't cover dealing with lots of status effects, but then again, I left some spellcasting in for my plans. You really do need to address how to cure blindness, being petrified, etc...

My setting isn't actually no-magic, it's just the magic component is entirely homebrew, and is an augmentation to a character's existing abilities, not something to base a class around. Rest assured, either they'll be ways to cure blindness and such or it won't be as common a problem as in standard D&D. As for petrification... I've actually never really liked that in fantasy settings. It's certainly possible in my setting, of course, but only if you take enough crystallization damage to kill, which can't be healed any more than you can heal from Disintegrate.

And Legend of Dragoon is totally amazing. I always liked that "heal 10% when defending" thing...



What is your desired tier? What power level do you want?

Without magic you're shooting for tier 3, 4, or 5, or possibly 3-4 or 4-5.

Rather than just shouting nonmagical things at you, I'd like to give you something that suits your design goals. How powerful should humans be?

I don't do "tiers." By that I mean that I don't really know which classes are which tier, and don't necessarily care so long as the power balance isn't too egregious and everyone's having fun. I have played a straight Fighter and made it work, but I wouldn't know how to play a Wizard. If you want to tell me what the tier of each class is, that's fine, though.