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View Full Version : What's making Rock Gnomes such awesome Wizards/Bards again?



Threeshades
2007-05-01, 05:50 PM
Okay Gnomes get a racial bonus on Craft Alchemy have a few extra level 0 spells and get bonuses for and against illusions.
in 3.0 gnomes had the favored class illusionist, which i guess was changed not at least because Illsuinist is not really a class itself. But it was understandable thanks to their illusion bonuses.
Thats all fine and nice but i heard people saying gnomes are the best thing you get for a wizard at LA +0.
But though their bonuses are useful they certainly are not the ultimate. Gnomes are good illusionists and Alchemists, and get a little more level 0 spells but a level 0 spell is maybe about as useful as a grey bag of tricks which you can choose the animal coming out.

But for a wizard i would guess a Sun Elf or Gray Elf would still be a better choice +2 Intelligence easily does more than make up for the few extra spells gnomes get at first level, because it gets you additional spells on the really useful spell levels (+1 on at least the first few) or it brings you much closer to reaching an intelligence high enough. it also catches up on the +1 on the DC, but that +1 isnt only for illusions but on all spells that allow a save. And in the end the higher intelligence is also providing an additional effective +1 on Alchemy checks. But not only, it also provides the same bonus on almost every other skills with high relevance for wizards (Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), craft (weponsmithing etc) (for crafting magic items) and i would have said scry here but that has been taken out in 3.5) + it grants an additional skill point each level which stacks this effect a little more with every level.
The only skill disadvantage, the Elves get, is a -2 on Concentration compared to a gnome because sun and gray elves have -2 constitution while gnomes have +2. But that will be easily made up by the lots of additional skill points elves get compared to gnomes.

So why do people say gnomes are such awesome wizards, when it seems that sun. and gray Elves seem to outshine every bonus gnomes get simply through their better intelligence?

(And why did they get Bard as favored class in 3.5? Especially how is that explained, as what i have read about Gnomes they are not really the type of people singing and dancing through the world, looking for social interaction with other races)


PS: Intelligence seems an underrated ability to me.

Dhavaer
2007-05-01, 05:54 PM
Without leaving the PHB, Gnomes are best because of their Small size and their Constitution bonus. Bringing in subraces will of course change this, because an Intelligence bonus trumps this even with a Constitution penalty.

Townopolis
2007-05-01, 05:58 PM
Possibly because some people think that certain subraces should not be counted. For example, it seems to some people (myself included) that the elven races are starting to look like this.

Elves
(so on and so forth)
Subraces: Barbaric Elves, Bardic Elves, Clerical Elves, Drow, Druidic Elves, Fighting Elves, Monkish Elves, Palatine Elves, Ranging Elves, Roguish Elves, Sorcerous Elves, & Wizardly Elves.

And frankly, I am never ever going to make/allow a Wizardly Elf Wizard, it's just not fair.

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-01, 06:00 PM
(And why did they get Bard as favored class in 3.5? Especially how is that explained, as what i have read about Gnomes they are not really the type of people singing and dancing through the world, looking for social interaction with other races)Pet theory: a great many people loathe gnomes. A great many people also loathe bards. So it was a marriage made in heaven.

Khoran
2007-05-01, 06:02 PM
Rock Gnomes are the best for Spellcasters in the Players Handbook due to the Con Bonus and the AC Bonus from Size. If you leave the PHB, you get the 10,000 different Elf Subtypes which is bound to have something better.

Demented
2007-05-01, 06:08 PM
Someone mentioned that there are more Dwarf varieties than Elf varieties....
But they apparently don't suffer the Elven problem?

Dhavaer
2007-05-01, 06:11 PM
Someone mentioned that there are more Dwarf varieties than Elf varieties....
But they apparently don't suffer the Elven problem?

Most of them are in FR, or are otherwise obscure. Arctic Dwarves, for instance. Elves get heaps of subraces in the monster manual.

Townopolis
2007-05-01, 06:14 PM
It's easier to hate on elves than dwarves. Apparently also easy to hate on gnomes and bards, but anyone who does begets my pity and loathing.

Loathing.

As for gnomes being bards, they addressed that in Races of Stone. By that I mean they "expanded" on the gnomish writeup found in the PHB and 70% of the added detail was all about how artistic gnomes are, and how art and music (science is an art to them) are huge parts of their lives. The other 30% was about gnomish angst.

AmoDman
2007-05-01, 06:22 PM
Pet theory: a great many people loathe gnomes. A great many people also loathe bards. So it was a marriage made in heaven.

Hey, shutup you. There may be Gnome-haters out there, but there's plenty of Gnome-lovers too. I like me some Gnomes. They rock, 'nuff said. Gnomes are best core (no subraces) because of the DC bonuses, small size, and CON, besides their rocking. Whisper Gnomes are pretty popular too. They're the emo Gnomes.

'Eff Knock-off-lings, I don't know why they have so many fans.

ocato
2007-05-01, 06:40 PM
Hating Bards is the path of the ignorant. You do not have to play them, it takes a special type of person to do so and enjoy it. But please, appreciate them. They'll save your life someday. Hell, they might save your life everyday.

As for gnomes, a Gnome Bard is actually something to be seen. Since Bards aren't really fighters the smaller weapons don't hurt them. +1 AC, more CON for that d6 HD and bonus to illusions? Sounds neato. Especially since Illusions are a part of a bard's complete breakfast. Throw in +4 size bonus to hide and a +1 to attacks to make up for the strength. I mean... your Bard is an archer right? Gnome Bards can be pretty good. Granted, I am a Human Bard fan because of the bonus feat (if you've got the right books, bards can be awfully feat-starved) and the bonus skills. All in all, it's a matter of preference. But hating gnomes-- or bards, is simply saying that you don't understand them.

Try to understand. Try to understand. Try, Try, Try to understand. They're magic little men.

Roderick_BR
2007-05-01, 07:01 PM
They are not really the best wizard/bards, but what else they are good on? :smalltongue:
Seriously, in 2nd edition, they had a Int bonus (and that could even give you immunity to 1st level illusions at 1st level!)
Now they have small size (good AC and attack bonus), Con bonus (always useful for everyone), and has a handful of cantrips that are simply not useful for any other class. What use a fighter or cleric would have for these? maybe a rogue, and then a rogue/bard/Arcane Trickster could be a cool concept, but that's it. Since bards looks more with illusionists now, WotC decided to put their favored class as bards because they are a bit more stronger physically, what makes them more survivable at low level game, and plus what kind of class is "Wizard, but only the ones specialized in Illusions".

Funny thing someone mentioned in other thread: "There's no material outside of D&D that has gnomes", but then again the same can be said about clerics, paladins, and a handful of others D&D base concepts. In FF, for example, you have "White Mages" but they are far from D&D clerics.

AmoDman
2007-05-01, 07:04 PM
Funny thing someone mentioned in other thread: "There's no material outside of D&D that has gnomes", but then again the same can be said about clerics, paladins, and a handful of others D&D base concepts. In FF, for example, you have "White Mages" but they are far from D&D clerics.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. There's Gnomes all over the place, in different shapes and sizes, even in FF. FF III had Gnomes. You had to shrink down to their size and everything. Gnomes are a mythical creature, Halflings are the LOTR rip-off.

Penguinsushi
2007-05-01, 07:07 PM
I think it's may be mostly a conceptual thing they're shooting for - there's a lot more to d&d beyond mechanics.

~PS

Merlin the Tuna
2007-05-01, 07:25 PM
What use a fighter or cleric would have for these?
Everyone loves a Con bonus, and ultimately if you're doing damage it's likely more because of Power Attack than because your weapon is dealing 1d10 as opposed to 1d8 damage.
Low-Light Vision makes everyone happy, or at least less unhappy.
+2 on saves vs. Illusions. Fighters have lousy Will saves. Illusions involve Will saves. I feel like I'm onto something here.
Weapon Familiarity gives Fighters an extra toy at no cost. Extra toys are good.
+2 to Listen. Because no one likes getting caught with their pants down.
The Melee Killer Gnome (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=633443) is made of winsauce.

BooBooSpooki
2007-05-01, 07:27 PM
The word that I encounter most when reading about this race is "curious", which suggests that, of all the base classes, the bard most fits this (amazingly awesome!) race. A bard is, after all, a "Jack-of-all-trades, master of none", not only a minstrel.

Laesin
2007-05-01, 08:20 PM
I always liked the idea of playing a Gnome Skald as a bard with perform (Oratory) as I think that would actually fit the gnome flavour.

Dhavaer
2007-05-01, 08:28 PM
I always liked the idea of playing a Gnome Skald as a bard with perform (Oratory) as I think that would actually fit the gnome flavour.

The presence of a gnome skald also suggests a gnome viking to me. The idea of hundreds of tiny, think-bearded gnomes with huge axes jumping out a longship amuses me no end.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-01, 10:06 PM
Small races should provoke AoOs everytime they use a non-reach weapon in combat. I think them having the same reach as Medium creatures is the single greatest factor in people actually liking them. :P Yes, I have issues with the "small races".

Amphimir Míriel
2007-05-01, 11:13 PM
Ever since the 3.5 Gnome came out, I have always imagined the race as a group of people with a profound admiration for the arts, especially music.

To some gnomes, this is limited to a deep appreciation for the mathematics of tone and harmony... For others, it is the passion of a lifetime.

Some devote themselves to creating complicated musical instruments, often involving air pumps or clockwork-operated chimes and bells.

Still others create and conduct complicated symphonies and operas, involving hundreds of gnomish musicians in huge concert halls... Few non-gnomes can appreciate gnomish these performances, though...

Yet even more Gnomes decide to abandon the hills and caves, in order to know more about the Wide World Outside(TM), meet interesting people, and return after a few years, with a complete chronicle of their achievements (complete with a musical score for full orchestra and chorus)

Dausuul
2007-05-02, 01:25 AM
Funny thing someone mentioned in other thread: "There's no material outside of D&D that has gnomes."

South Park has gnomes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underpants_Gnomes). 'Nuff said.

Jayabalard
2007-05-02, 09:28 AM
Funny thing someone mentioned in other thread: "There's no material outside of D&D that has gnomes", but then again the same can be said about clerics, paladins, and a handful of others D&D base concepts. In FF, for example, you have "White Mages" but they are far from D&D clerics.None of the things that you mention are strictly D&D concepts...

There's plenty of material outside of D&D that has gnomes; David the Gnome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_of_David_the_Gnome) comes to mind rather quickly, as does the book series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Book_of_Gnomes) that it was loosely based off of and Garden Gnomes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnome#Garden_gnomes) (which have been around for 150 years or more)

It's hard to discuss Real world clerics, since that generally involves topics that aren't allowed on this board, but I seem to recall that the Agony and the Ecstasy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058886/), has a portrayal of a real world cleric (Julius II)... he's not casting any spells that I can see, but he's wearing full armor and wielding weapons in sections of it, and I think there are some people who may believe that he works miracles...

Paladins have their origins in a pretty rich tradition of knighthood... there have been some good threads on this in the past month or two, feel free to look around for them.

Talya
2007-05-02, 11:21 AM
Possibly because some people think that certain subraces should not be counted. For example, it seems to some people (myself included) that the elven races are starting to look like this.

Elves
(so on and so forth)
Subraces: Barbaric Elves, Bardic Elves, Clerical Elves, Drow, Druidic Elves, Fighting Elves, Monkish Elves, Palatine Elves, Ranging Elves, Roguish Elves, Sorcerous Elves, & Wizardly Elves.

And frankly, I am never ever going to make/allow a Wizardly Elf Wizard, it's just not fair.


You forgot Drow, Flying Elves, Drow, Half elves and drow.

Edit: And drow. I forgot to mention drow.

Swooper
2007-05-02, 12:14 PM
In my group (who's been playing togeather since 2nd Edition AD&D), when we got 3rd Edition many years ago, we looked at gnomes and thought: "What the heck? A Con bonus? They're like... tiny... let's stick to Int as it used to be." And so, no gnome played by any of us has had a Con bonus. *shrug* Guess that makes them pretty awesome wizards for no LA.

YPU
2007-05-02, 03:47 PM
I used to play a gnome in a local LARP, being the chaotic blacksmiths errant boy of a paladin order. Still, being a trickster gave me some fun moments. Imagine the epic battle between the mighty killer daemon and the holly paladin goody. They charge at each other but the daemon trips at the last moment because of that little big eyed guy standing behind the pali. Quite fun moments really.

Dhavaer
2007-05-02, 05:19 PM
You forgot Drow, Flying Elves, Drow, Half elves and drow.

Edit: And drow. I forgot to mention drow.

This is why I'm proud to say that my drow are not elves. They don't like spiders, either.

And flying elves are called avariel.