Finesse Weapons, Versatile weapons, and game balance

[Submortimer]

This has come up a number of times before, but i don't ever think I've seen it broken down: exactly what is the game breaking part about making a finessable versatile weapon? Or Two Handed weapon? It's not the ability to use it with sneak attack, or doing so with a Heavy Crossbow would already be broken (1d10+Dex+SA damage).

So what is it?

[Giant2005]

I can't think of anything particularly broken about it.
Unless you were a class without access to a shield, you would be better off using a 1D8 Rapier + Shield than a 1D10 two-handed weapon anyway.

[1Forge]

the reason is that finess weapons dont need two hands realistically. Finess weapons like most swords didnt really need much force to cut straight through a human, so you were able to sacrifice some structural integrety for to increase reach and lower wieght (like the rapier vs the longsword the rapier is longer but slightly thinner) holding a rapier or simmilarly finess weapon in two hands would not help in the slightest.

[JNAProductions]

GWF rerolling Sneak Attack d6s, mostly.

Outside that, nothing I can think of.

[Submortimer]

GWF rerolling Sneak Attack d6s, mostly.

Outside that, nothing I can think of.

See, that I can understand, though I don't see how that's so much more I'm balancing than a paladin reroll in his smite d8s.

Most of the time, the arguement is just "D10 or d12 finesse weapon? BROKEN!"

In my mind, this could be cleared up in two steps:

1) make it so that GWF only applies with weapons that have the Heavy descriptor.

2) Heavy weapons cannot have the Finesse trait, and vice versa.

Then, to clear up the remaining issue:
3) Either allow Dueling to work with a two-handed versatile weapon, or introduce a fighting style that makes versatile weapons worthwhile.

[djreynolds]

See, that I can understand, though I don't see how that's so much more I'm balancing than a paladin reroll in his smite d8s.

Most of the time, the arguement is just "D10 or d12 finesse weapon? BROKEN!"

In my mind, this could be cleared up in two steps:

1) make it so that GWF only applies with weapons that have the Heavy descriptor.

2) Heavy weapons cannot have the Finesse trait, and vice versa.

Then, to clear up the remaining issue:
3) Either allow Dueling to work with a two-handed versatile weapon, or introduce a fighting style that makes versatile weapons worthwhile.

I just started a thread on this kind of topic. And I understand the dilemma

A long sword is versatile, IMO the thing that makes it worthwhile is that it can benefit from these two styles below, as you can switch you grips, or use a shield or drop it for more power. You only need one melee weapon.

1) Meaning you can use it one handed with or without a shield and gain the bonus of the + 2 damage.... if you've selected the duelist style.

2) also you can wield it two handed and gain the benefit of the GWF style, "re-rolling 1's & 2's".... if you selected that style.

you only get either one depending on your grip.

3) you cannot use the "power attack" portion of the GW master "-5,+10" since a versatile weapon (long-sword, spear, trident, quarterstaff, battle axe, and war hammer) is not "heavy"

4) So a fighter1/ paladin 2 or ranger2/ fighter1 or paladin2/ ranger2 could select as a fighting styles duelist and great weapon fighting and just use a long sword and whenever he switches his grip he has a benefit to that weapon.

5) He doesn't get both at the same time.... but he only needs one weapon for melee and can use it with or without a shield and if wanted to spend more could dual wield them two weapons, with one feat and style extra

6) And in addition to this a quarterstaff (not spear or trident) wielder could also select pole-arm master and benefit depending on his grip.

7) I'm unsure if a quarterstaff and shield benefits from the pole-arm master feat.... but if people are dual wielding hand crossbows why not.

[Once a Fool]

This has come up a number of times before, but i don't ever think I've seen it broken down: exactly what is the game breaking part about making a finessable versatile weapon? Or Two Handed weapon? It's not the ability to use it with sneak attack, or doing so with a Heavy Crossbow would already be broken (1d10+Dex+SA damage).

So what is it?

No. It's not because of sneak attack.

It's because of multiclass builds with:
sneak attack (up to twice a round) + assassination (for crits that work well with SA and GWF) + maximized initiative through maxed Dex (to assassinate more frequently) + GWF (on every attack--and on sneak attack damage) + GWM (on every attack against low enough AC, or with advantage) + extra attack(s) (which increase the likelihood of landing a sneak attack, can all be crits with assassination, and can all use GWF and GWM) + Polearm Master (for the every-turn bonus action attack that can use GWF and GWM and for the increased chance of an OA which can use GWF, GWM, and sneak attack).

That is a huge power boost to Great Weapon builds--which are already at the upper end of the melee scale. And the Great Weapon warrior doesn't even really have to give anything up for it, except their level 20 capstone.

[The_Pyromancer]

I think because of Sneak Attack. With the Great Weapon Fighting style, your average damage for sneak attack with, say, 6d6 goes from 21 average damage to 27. That is a significant increase, and it is every single turn. It doesn't really cost any resources, unlike a Palasin's Divine Smite, that costs spell slots.

[Once a Fool]

And, incidentally, even d12 heavy crossbows fired with sharpshooter and crossbow expert can't be used for a bonus action attack--and can't be used for opportunity attacks, so they're already behind in potential damage compared to a d10 (and 1d4) polearm with GWM and Polearm Master. And that's before you consider the (high) possibility that the polearm will get an OA sneak attack and the crossbow can't.

[djreynolds]

Also sneak attack has changed, in that you only need advantage. As long as a tank is engaged with an enemy the rogue can sneak attack from range, you don't have to back stab or flank. I imagine someone is focused on that opponent that he leaves open a critical area for the rogue to surgically attack and I think that's why you need a finesse weapon because it simulates you striking a small exposed area that wouldn't normally be defenseless.

A monk's unarmed strikes can be used with dexterity, and I'm sure in real life some black belt can "take his right foot and put it on the left side of my head", but it can't always be surgical strike. I guess a front kick to the gut is surgical enough.

I think a remedy could be made for unarmed strikes and a change in damage for monks who want more control of their strikes. Like a knife hand does 1d4 but is eligible for sneak attack damage and fly side kick is eligible for -5 to hit and +10 damage.

And honesty, the fact that you can now add dexterity bonus to damage for any finesse weapon is huge. For most that is +5, that a huge gain because you can dump strength totally. A greatsword wielder still needs dex for saves, initiative, and long ranged weapons, javelins and hand axes are nice but limited in range and ammo.

[Once a Fool]

Also sneak attack has changed, in that you only need advantage.

You don't even need advantage! All you need is an ally up in your target's face. Or not, if you're the swashbuckler.

[PoeticDwarf]

This has come up a number of times before, but i don't ever think I've seen it broken down: exactly what is the game breaking part about making a finessable versatile weapon? Or Two Handed weapon? It's not the ability to use it with sneak attack, or doing so with a Heavy Crossbow would already be broken (1d10+Dex+SA damage).

So what is it?

'The point is, that STR fighters would be too bad, and because it's not logical that you have a weapon, in two hands, but you still use your DEX.

[Submortimer]

No. It's not because of sneak attack.

It's because of multiclass builds with:
sneak attack (up to twice a round) + assassination (for crits that work well with SA and GWF) + maximized initiative through maxed Dex (to assassinate more frequently) + GWF (on every attack--and on sneak attack damage) + GWM (on every attack against low enough AC, or with advantage) + extra attack(s) (which increase the likelihood of landing a sneak attack, can all be crits with assassination, and can all use GWF and GWM) + Polearm Master (for the every-turn bonus action attack that can use GWF and GWM and for the increased chance of an OA which can use GWF, GWM, and sneak attack).

That is a huge power boost to Great Weapon builds--which are already at the upper end of the melee scale. And the Great Weapon warrior doesn't even really have to give anything up for it, except their level 20 capstone.

I'd agree with that, except for a couple things:

- The damage portion of GWM only applies to heavy weapons, and I think there's an arguement to be made as to not allowing Heavy weapons to benefit from finesse.
- PM specifically calls out which weapons work with it , none of which are currently Finesseable. Even so, the only non-heavy one would be Quarterstaff.
- The Build you're calling out here requires, at minimum, an 8th level character: 2 feats (assuming one human and one gained at level 4), Assassinate (three levels of rogue), and extra attack (at least 5 levels of something other than rogue, lets assume fighter).
- Most everything you've said here can ALREADY be done to about the same effect with a ranger/rogue: Three attacks a turn (with a hand crossbow), with a +10 to damage on each, using dexterity, with assassination (auto criticals), using only two feats (Crossbow Master and Sharpshooter), with an applicable fighting style (archery). I don't know why what you've presented is broken but what I just presented is not.

[Submortimer]

'The point is, that STR fighters would be too bad, and because it's not logical that you have a weapon, in two hands, but you still use your DEX.

It's also not logical that you add your Dex bonus to damage on a longbow:
- more damage due to aming? That should be perception based, i.e. wisdom bonus
- more damage due to stronger pull? Strength based

Flexibility ain't got nothing to do with it. That being said, i'm happy that it is the way it is, I'm just saying that there still isn't taht compelling of an arguement as to why I can use my dex bonus with a two handed, non heavy weapon.

[djreynolds]

It's also not logical that you add your Dex bonus to damage on a longbow:
- more damage due to aming? That should be perception based, i.e. wisdom bonus
- more damage due to stronger pull? Strength based

Flexibility ain't got nothing to do with it. That being said, i'm happy that it is the way it is, I'm just saying that there still isn't taht compelling of an arguement as to why I can use my dex bonus with a two handed, non heavy weapon.

Don't hang me, but I have a couple "things" and it's all hypothetical.

What is strength, I mean an offensive lineman may bench 500lbs but can't do 5 pull-ups, but a 10 year old girl in gymnastics may do 15 pull-ups and flips and can't bench much. My point is, is dexterity more than just hand eye coordination and flexibility? Does it included pound for pound strength? Isn't sprinting strength? Isn't jogging constitution? I don't want to confuse or muddle things, so I apologize. But it used to be dexterity was coordination and strength was strength. Where does the bonus from dexterity damage come from, accuracy? Isn't aiming a weapon dexterity and proficiency already accounted for in the hit?

I've been really thinking of implementing dexterity to hit for all weapons and strength for damage. But it seems there are two kinds of "strength", power and brute force of a sprint and shove and the toned strength of say gymnast and if that it muscle tone and pound for pound strength, is that where dexterity damage bonus coming from. Would muscle tone be affected more by constitution like the jogger or the fighter on long march. Rage time used to be covered by constitution, is it still? Would constitution account for pound for pound strength? Why doesn't your movement in combat increase based on your physical stats?

I'm fine with leaving the system were it is. Just asking

[Once a Fool]

I'd agree with that, except for a couple things:

- The damage portion of GWM only applies to heavy weapons, and I think there's an arguement to be made as to not allowing Heavy weapons to benefit from finesse.
- PM specifically calls out which weapons work with it , none of which are currently Finesseable. Even so, the only non-heavy one would be Quarterstaff.

Uh, yeah. Sorry about that. I've seen the argument pop up so many times, I guess I kind of assumed that you were including heavy weapons in your hypothetical. If you exclude heavy weapons, two-hand finesse weapons aren't that bad--basically +1 damage per hit. Yeah, GWF still works, and would work on sneak attack--but that's only like +0.45 for the d10 and +0.4 per d6.


- The Build you're calling out here requires, at minimum, an 8th level character: 2 feats (assuming one human and one gained at level 4), Assassinate (three levels of rogue), and extra attack (at least 5 levels of something other than rogue, lets assume fighter).

Well, yeah. I posted the extreme end of it, but it could be a power boost out the gate give a variant human rogue 1 Polearm Master and he'll out-damage a dual shortsword-wielder with a higher on-turn average and more OAs (potentially with sneak attack).

- Most everything you've said here can ALREADY be done to about the same effect with a ranger/rogue: Three attacks a turn (with a hand crossbow), with a +10 to damage on each, using dexterity, with assassination (auto criticals), using only two feats (Crossbow Master and Sharpshooter), with an applicable fighting style (archery). I don't know why what you've presented is broken but what I just presented is not.

Nope. No ranged weapon user can ever get an OA with SA damage and an additional +10 from a feat. But a finesse polearm could. Easily. Add to that that the only way your character is getting a bonus attack is with d6 weapon.

So, (assuming comparable class features--thus, fighter instead of ranger for the extra extra attack and assassination, etc.) you could get 2-4 d6 attacks, each with +10, and one instance of SA (full ranged sneak attacker with crossbow master and sharpshooter). Or, 2-4 d6 attacks, each with +10, and one SA + 1 d8 OA melee attack and one sneak attack (ranged sneak attacker with crossbow master, sharpshooter, and a rapier). Or, 1-3 d10 +10 attacks, 1 d4 +10 attack, one sneak attack, and one d10 +10 OA sneak attack (melee sneak attacker with GWM, PA, and a finesse polearm).

One of these options packs a lot more punch than the other two. And that would be the one with the reach sneak OA with +10 damage.

[Steampunkette]

Alternatively, we could nerf gwm which kinda desperately needs it.

[djreynolds]

Uh, yeah. Sorry about that. I've seen the argument pop up so many times, I guess I kind of assumed that you were including heavy weapons in your hypothetical. If you exclude heavy weapons, two-hand finesse weapons aren't that bad--basically +1 damage per hit. Yeah, GWF still works, and would work on sneak attack--but that's only like +0.45 for the d10 and +0.4 per d6.



Well, yeah. I posted the extreme end of it, but it could be a power boost out the gate give a variant human rogue 1 Polearm Master and he'll out-damage a dual shortsword-wielder with a higher on-turn average and more OAs (potentially with sneak attack).


Nope. No ranged weapon user can ever get an OA with SA damage and an additional +10 from a feat. But a finesse polearm could. Easily. Add to that that the only way your character is getting a bonus attack is with d6 weapon.

So, (assuming comparable class features--thus, fighter instead of ranger for the extra extra attack and assassination, etc.) you could get 2-4 d6 attacks, each with +10, and one instance of SA (full ranged sneak attacker with crossbow master and sharpshooter). Or, 2-4 d6 attacks, each with +10, and one SA + 1 d8 OA melee attack and one sneak attack (ranged sneak attacker with crossbow master, sharpshooter, and a rapier). Or, 1-3 d10 +10 attacks, 1 d4 +10 attack, one sneak attack, and one d10 +10 OA sneak attack (melee sneak attacker with GWM, PA, and a finesse polearm).

One of these options packs a lot more punch than the other two. And that would be the one with the reach sneak OA with +10 damage.


I don't have problem with a rogue monk, higher level, sneak attacking with a staff or even hand strikes. If you allowed this, what level of rogue and monk would you recommend.

[Once a Fool]

I don't have problem with a rogue monk, higher level, sneak attacking with a staff or even hand strikes. If you allowed this, what level of rogue and monk would you recommend.

Probably cut off after level 6 in one class or the other (both classes get evasion at 7). 17/3 could be a good split, as well, but extra attack is a great thing for a rogue to have access to, so a five level dip into monk would be very nice.