M&M: Speedsters too good?

[Doc_Maynot]

I just played my first game of M&M tonight, and I made the character for a PL 8 game. I decided to build one of my favorite Hero Archetypes: A Speedster.
So for it I took little to no Powers/Advantages other than speed based ones. Speed (15), Quickness (15), Movement (Wall-Crawling, Water Walking, Limited to while moving.), Move-By-Action, Improved Initiative, Takedown (2). These are the ones I mention as they are the ones that are bring in issues being used together. I didn't build it that way, but what usually happens in I move in, take out most of the minions and then search around the area and then return to the group... All on turn one and I'm usually always the first to go. I'm not sure if it's my fault.. I just took stuff I thought a speedster should have. The GM is going to allow me to rebuild a bit... But any Speed higher than 8 will still result in the same issue. And the group doesn't even consider Takedown the issue. I'm clueless... What do y'all think I should do? I love my speedster character.

[AmberVael]

Takedown is exactly the issue here. Without Takedown, the ability of your ridiculous speed to remove minions in a single turn wouldn't function. Drop your second rank of takedown and things should be a bit less crazy.

It might help to know exactly how you're attacking though.

[Sith_Happens]

Takedown is exactly the issue here. Without Takedown, the ability of your ridiculous speed to remove minions in a single turn wouldn't function. Drop your second rank of takedown and things should be a bit less crazy.

Seconding this. On a typical character Takedown 2 basically reads "You can take out minions by the room full."

[dream]

Don't change a thing. The very essence of what makes playing a speedster fun is SPEED. Advantages like Move-by Action, Evasion, & Takedown are perfect fits for the type. Takedown only works against minions, so have fun with it. You aren't doing anything wrong. It's a game :smallsmile:

[Anonymouswizard]

To be fair, it's no stronger than a tech-buffer (use inventor, quickness (limited to inventing), and high technology to crank out an invention per combat round).

It's only a problem if the group agrees it's a problem and you haven't shared that information, but an idea is to turn Speed and Quickness into a two-effect array, which makes one of them cost one point but you can't use both at once.

[dream]

You want "disruptive"? Try a well-designed powerhouse who can knock over skyscrapers and shrug off anti-tank ordnance. That, is a problem.

[Sith_Happens]

You want "disruptive"? Try a well-designed powerhouse who can knock over skyscrapers and shrug off anti-tank ordnance. That, is a problem.

Actually, that's 90+% of PL 10 characters.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah taking out roomfuls of Minions in one round is a legitimate niche in M&M. You won't have nearly this "problem" against real supervillains.

You might consider Limiting your Quickness to physical actions so you aren't doing all the exploring and investigation too, if you want the more skill monkey characters to take care of that.

[Drakeburn]

Well, another way you can play a speedster is creating a multiattack damage power that allows you to hit one or more than one person. This kind of power can be used on both minions and real supervillains, but it comes with an attack penalty depending on how many targets you're aiming for (the penalty doesn't apply if you're going after one target). It seems like a fair substitute for the Takedown advantage in my opinion.

[Doc_Maynot]

Thank y'all for all the advice. Like I said, first game of M&M, didn't think I'd do this already.
More context: The group is a band of "super soldiers" fighting at the forefront of WW2 attacking key locations. There are five of us: Tim Baker, The Yankee Eagle. Has super strength and flight (Has a few points lower in flight than I have in speed IIRC). Four-Leaf, has an anti-tank rifle, and powers over luck. Jason Von Brawn, Rocket Man. Tech guy, has a glove that manipulated magnetism, and a rocket pack as well as a few other gadgets. Raymond Stevens, a veteran whose powers/abilities I am not sure about. And Sarah Summers, Hellcat. Who is myself. She has the speed powers I have mentioned thus far.


To be fair, it's no stronger than a tech-buffer (use inventor, quickness (limited to inventing), and high technology to crank out an invention per combat round).

It's only a problem if the group agrees it's a problem and you haven't shared that information, but an idea is to turn Speed and Quickness into a two-effect array, which makes one of them cost one point but you can't use both at once.

I kept seeing arrays... And I really don't understand them would maybe you be able to explain? Since the group is more focused at my amount of speed, I've been tempted to make them fading.


Yeah taking out roomfuls of Minions in one round is a legitimate niche in M&M. You won't have nearly this "problem" against real supervillains.

You might consider Limiting your Quickness to physical actions so you aren't doing all the exploring and investigation too, if you want the more skill monkey characters to take care of that.

I really am not investigating that much, just looking around. I've bought 1000x Visual senses... So if I did that, would I need to get rid of those too, right?


Takedown is exactly the issue here. Without Takedown, the ability of your ridiculous speed to remove minions in a single turn wouldn't function. Drop your second rank of takedown and things should be a bit less crazy.

It might help to know exactly how you're attacking though.

I figured as much, and I offered to change it, but the group insists that's not the issue, but my speed. :smallsigh:

I attack with a power I've dubbed Mach Fu. It's physical damage and I can only use it if I have moved as it relies on my speed to function.

[Sith_Happens]

I kept seeing arrays... And I really don't understand them would maybe you be able to explain?

An "array" is shorthand for a power with one or more Alternate Effects. Short version is, if you have two powers that are thematically similar to or variations of each other (for example, a single-target fire blast and an area fire blast)*, you can make the cheaper one cost only a single power point in exchange for not being able to use both powers in the same turn. The most basic and common application of this is to have multiple attack options without paying through the nose for them (since you can't attack twice in the same turn without extra effort anyways).

* How similar they have to be is up to the GM.


I've bought 1000x Visual senses

That seems both excessive and unnecessary; you don't have to see very far when you can run 40 miles per second.


I figured as much, and I offered to change it, but the group insists that's not the issue, but my speed. :smallsigh:

Point out to them that Tim and Four-Leaf are both two ranks of Takedown away from being just as good as you at clearing out minions. Unless you've been going as far as clearing them out by the village-full rather than the room-full, in which case only Tim is.

[Anonymouswizard]

I kept seeing arrays... And I really don't understand them would maybe you be able to explain? Since the group is more focused at my amount of speed, I've been tempted to make them fading.

Okay, arrays consist of:
-One core power, this costs as much as normal.
-One or more alternate effects, which have a value no more than the core power, but cost one point.

You can only use one power in an array at a time, so let's assume we have an array with three powers: Quickness 10, Speed 10, and lightning punches (strength based damage, possibly with multiattack).

On any given turn the character can either move much faster than normal, perform actions much faster than normal, or unleash a flurry of super fast punches, but can't use them all at once.

The only thing to remember about arrays is that you can only have one of their powers active at once, so if I have continuous create and protection in an array I can't make objects while increasing my toughness.


I figured as much, and I offered to change it, but the group insists that's not the issue, but my speed. :smallsigh:

I attack with a power I've dubbed Mach Fu. It's physical damage and I can only use it if I have moved as it relies on my speed to function.

Explain that your speed doesn't let you attack multiple times per term, and you can reduce it's effectiveness by building it as an array (but will end up stronger in other areas).

[Beleriphon]

Just remember that with Takedown you need to 1) hit (although you can make routine checks as attacks against minions) and then 2) have the minion fail a save. Minions don't just drop when you walk up to them, in fact you can have minions that can't be hit except via natural 20s.

As for the Speed thing, it isn't that much an issue. Take the Flash as an example. Sure he can run around the Earth three times per move action, but in M&M rules he can still only make one attack per round without something that says otherwise (Takedown, area attacks, etc). Even then so what? Takedown 2 can be a bugaboo since as long as you keep knocking minions out then you can keep moving, but as soon as you don't then the whole thing stops working.

Also, I can only assume your GM has a Nazi speedster named Blitzkrieg read to go.

[Doc_Maynot]

An "array" is shorthand for a power with one or more Alternate Effects. Short version is, if you have two powers that are thematically similar to or variations of each other (for example, a single-target fire blast and an area fire blast)*, you can make the cheaper one cost only a single power point in exchange for not being able to use both powers in the same turn. The most basic and common application of this is to have multiple attack options without paying through the nose for them (since you can't attack twice in the same turn without extra effort anyways).

* How similar they have to be is up to the GM.



That seems both excessive and unnecessary; you don't have to see very far when you can run 40 miles per second.



Point out to them that Tim and Four-Leaf are both two ranks of Takedown away from being just as good as you at clearing out minions. Unless you've been going as far as clearing them out by the village-full rather than the room-full, in which case only Tim is.

Whoops, I meant x1000 speed as to my visual senses. And I'll try and point it out.


Okay, arrays consist of:
-One core power, this costs as much as normal.
-One or more alternate effects, which have a value no more than the core power, but cost one point.

You can only use one power in an array at a time, so let's assume we have an array with three powers: Quickness 10, Speed 10, and lightning punches (strength based damage, possibly with multiattack).

On any given turn the character can either move much faster than normal, perform actions much faster than normal, or unleash a flurry of super fast punches, but can't use them all at once.

The only thing to remember about arrays is that you can only have one of their powers active at once, so if I have continuous create and protection in an array I can't make objects while increasing my toughness.



Explain that your speed doesn't let you attack multiple times per term, and you can reduce it's effectiveness by building it as an array (but will end up stronger in other areas).

Thank you both with the Array help... That will give me so much more PP to spend... Any recommendations?

[Beleriphon]

Whoops, I meant x1000 speed as to my visual senses. And I'll try and point it out.



Thank you both with the Array help... That will give me so much more PP to spend... Any recommendations?

Assuming that you have a trade-off for attack bonus over damage multi-attack is a good way to go. That way if you push your damage through the roof if you roll over the defenses of your opponent. This works by applying Multi-Attack to the damage portion of your strength. If Hellcat has strength 2 then you can apply Multi-Attack to your strength (for 1 point per rank of strength, so 2 points in our example) and if you get two degrees of success (by beating your opponents defense score by 10) you get a +2 boost to the damage and if you manage three degrees of success you get a +5 bonus to damage. The only stipulation is that this nothing to affect Impervious if your base damage score can't overcome the impervious on its own (so no rapid punching Panthers into oblivion).

[Sith_Happens]

This works by applying Multi-Attack to the damage portion of your strength. If Hellcat has strength 2 then you can apply Multi-Attack to your strength (for 1 point per rank of strength, so 2 points in our example)

Hellcat also has a "Mach Fu" Damage power that it needs applying to.

[Beleriphon]

Hellcat also has a "Mach Fu" Damage power that it needs applying to.

I'd personally apply it to that power then, and make everything else an array off of that. Something like this:

Super-Speed Array

Like the Wind - Speed 15 AND Movement 2 (15 + 2 points = 17 points)
Mach-Fu - Strength Based Multi-Attack Damage 4 (12 points, or 1 point as an AE) This assumes a strength of two, meaning the actual damage ranks are 6. It can change, but I don't usually see speedsters with high strength. Particularly at PL8.
Fast Hands - Quickness Limited to Physical Tasks 10 (5 points, or 1 points as an AE)

This is 19 points. It lets you do speedster stuff, but you can't completely hammer a whole room of mooks since to really hammer one with your best attack you have to stop running fast. It also allows you to do physical tasks extremely fast, like say take apart an engine or read a dozen books.