Looking to play a 3.5 Bladesinger

[Aetis]

Our group need a fresh set of characters that we will play from lv 1 and go (hopefully) all the way to lv 12-13ish. Materials from PHB, PHB2, and the Complete Series (barring Psionic) were allowed. I want to try playing the Bladesinger prestige class (from complete warrior). I know the class isn't very strong, but I want to play it anyways.

Here is what I came up with:

Half-Elf Rogue 4/Wizard (Conjurer) 1/Unseen Seer 1/Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 1 into Bladesinger X

(Half-elf is to avoid the multiclass XP penalty.)

25 pt buy - 10 Str, 16 Dex, 10 Con, 16 Int, 10 Wis, 7 Cha

Feats:
1 - Dodge
3 - Weapon Focus (Rapier)
6 - Combat Casting
7 - Combat Expertise
8 - Weapon Finesse
9 - Einhinder (first Bladesinger level)

Early levels, I would functionally be same as a rogue, which I've played before and it shouldn't be too bad. Unseen Seer dip at 6 seemed like an easy dip for sneak attack + spell progression.

Level 7 and 8 is where I start making the transition into melee side of things. I suspect this is the range of levels where the build is weakest, but I really really do need the extra feats for the unforgiving prereqs.

At level 9, my BAB is at +6/+1, and I have access to 2nd level Wiz spells (with bit of a spell failure... sadness). Assuming a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, I pumped Dex at lv4 and lv8, and a Gloves of Dex +2, my AC is at 10 + 5 Dex, +1 Int, + 5 Armor, +1 Dodge, +3 Fight Defensively, +5 Combat Expertise, +2 Narrow Profile, for 32. (cast Shield for 36) My dodge bonus is (thankfully) protected by uncanny dodge. A buffed lv 9 bruiser rolls +8 Str, +9 BAB, +1 Enhancement, +2 Charge for +20. (more for weapon focus feats and shenanigans), and monsters roll bit less than that usually, which give me a decent survival chance on the charge/pounce turn. (although my AC doesn't even come close what a dedicated shield fighter/knight can do)

Since most bruisers open with a decent amount of power attack penalty vs a lightly armored frontliner, I should be able to survive the initial pounce from anything less than a shock trooper. (against shock troopers, I realllly hope my mirror image is up)

Just as most Dex Fighter builds, I need a Wounding weapon, which I will try my best to procure in the campaign. I'll hide my spellcasting nature as long as possible (skill trick - concealed spellcasting), and save the off-hand flourish/abrupt jaunt as a way to sneak attack/assassinate slippery targets/escape grapple. I'll cast and hold a shocking grasp when I wake up every day, in case I get a chance to full attack on to a stunned target or something similar. (even with -8 off-hand penalty, touch attack should still reliably hit vs no Dex touch AC targets)

-

I know I broke a lot of optimization rules for the sake of playing a viable bladesinger. I would appreciate it if you guys took a good, hard look at the build. I would especially appreciate build advice from other Dex Fighter optimizers, who has been down the dark path I'm about to take.

[Xervous]

My first step would be to question the DM's sanity for using the multiclass xp penalty rule

Rogue 4 is doing very little for you, uncanny dodge really... you could dip another full BAB class to get your +1 bab, more saves, and some other class features to boot. 2d6 sneak attack isn't the biggest thing either :X

Wizard (conjurer) 3/ swashbuckler 1 / fighter 1 / Lion totem barbarian 1 / spellsword 1 / bladesinger X

This will...
*Get you in earlier
*Get you pounce to ensure full attacks
*net you more casting
*10% ASF reduction from spellsword




If you aren't locked in stone to those sourcebooks there are a few other options that could be used to help the build.

[marphod]

Half-Elf Rogue 4/Wizard (Conjurer) 1/Unseen Seer 1/Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 1 into Bladesinger X

(Half-elf is to avoid the multiclass XP penalty.)


you're probably better off with one of the elven variants that gets Rogue as a favored class. If there are any good ones. And maybe going Dragonborn, as well.



Feats:
1 - Dodge
3 - Weapon Focus (Rapier)
6 - Combat Casting
7 - Combat Expertise
8 - Weapon Finesse
9 - Einhinder (first Bladesinger level)

That feat list makes me want to cry. Dodge. WFocus. Combat Casting. Uuuuuuuugh.
You're probably better off taking Finesse and Expertise as soon as possible, and pushing WFocus and Dodge until as late as possible. At least from a survivability standpoint.



At level 9, my BAB is at +6/+1, and I have access to 2nd level Wiz spells (with bit of a spell failure... sadness). Assuming a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, I pumped Dex at lv4 and lv8, and a Gloves of Dex +2, my AC is at 10 + 5 Dex, +1 Int, + 5 Armor, +1 Dodge, +3 Fight Defensively, +5 Combat Expertise, +2 Narrow Profile, for 32. (cast Shield for 36) My dodge bonus is (thankfully) protected by uncanny dodge.

You;re probably better off at this level with a 0ASF option than a 1 in 20 chance to fail to cast each spell. Twilight enhancement, one of the low-ASF fabrics, or just a source for Mage Armor.

What's Narrow Profile from? I don;t know that one.

The problem is you're not going to survive that first round unless you win initiative. You're doing well, with a +10 Initiative (with a Nerveskitter wand in your weapon's wand chamber). However, lose init and you're flattened. You need an action to fight defensively and activate Expertise (and, IIRC, select a dodge target). And, IIRC, you need to be taking a standard action to attack, at least, to activate them both, which means no buffing even if you are aware/not surprised and have a round to prepare.

Lose Initiative, and your AC is an anemic 21. (or 23, don't know Narrow Profile)

You have 35ish HP. That's a single hit from a bruiser at that level.

Your to-hit is around +6 BAB +5 Dex +2 Flank -5 Expertise -4Fight Defensive +1 Magic/Masterwork and +1Weapon Focus, or +6/+1. Without additional buffs you're hitting <20% of the time with your first attack and 5% of the time with your iterative.

You're doing around 5d6+5 on a sneak attack. (3d6 SA, 1d6 elemental enhancement, str, enhancement and some other buffs) for 22 damage. your not one-rounding that bruiser, so even if you survived the first round, you;'re dead on the second.

---

You really need to pump your to hit, your AC, and your damage output. Craven would help with damage. A wand chamber with Wraithstrike would help the to-hit but kills your initiative. Animated mithral buckler can help AC some. Get a flaw for an extra feat slot drop Swash or Fighter one and get another level of Rogue for another die of Sneak Attack. Either drop you wisdom and get your Con higher, or see if you can take the feat that lets you add Int to your HP. see if your dm will let you use a feycraft rapier instead of needing finesse.

The bladesinger has flavor, but it is a terrible prc with respect to power level and gish usefulness. Your build caps at 4th level spells. And you're not getting anything in return.

[marphod]

Wizard (conjurer) 3/ swashbuckler 1 / fighter 1 / Lion totem barbarian 1 / spellsword 1 / bladesinger X

This will...
*Get you in earlier
*Get you pounce to ensure full attacks
*net you more casting
*10% ASF reduction from spellsword



Also, lets you select any of the favored class wizard elf subraces. If you're stuck with the xp penalty.

[Aetis]

My first step would be to question the DM's sanity for using the multiclass xp penalty rule

Rogue 4 is doing very little for you, uncanny dodge really... you could dip another full BAB class to get your +1 bab, more saves, and some other class features to boot. 2d6 sneak attack isn't the biggest thing either :X

Wizard (conjurer) 3/ swashbuckler 1 / fighter 1 / Lion totem barbarian 1 / spellsword 1 / bladesinger X

This will...
*Get you in earlier
*Get you pounce to ensure full attacks
*net you more casting
*10% ASF reduction from spellsword



I have a number of questions:

Why rage? I can't cast spells while raging.
I have no power attack, which means full attack + pounce does next to nothing.
Convince me that extra two levels of spellcasting is worth it, especially I will not be able to support my spellcasting with feats or massively high Int.

[marphod]

I have a number of questions:

Why rage? I can't cast spells while raging.
I have no power attack, which means full attack + pounce does next to nothing.
Convince me that extra two levels of spellcasting is worth it, especially I will not be able to support my spellcasting with feats or massively high Int.

Rage is irrelevant, except possibly as a last ditch keep my ass alive option. You're getting the Barbarian level for Pounce. (Hell, I've got a LE scout build with that level in Barbarian and a backstory to explain why. He can't rage, but Pounce is a ACF for fast move, and lawful ex-barbs keep fast movement).

I think you are confusing pounce with Leap Attack. Pounce: Make a full attack at the end of a charge. Leap Attack: do more damage with Power Attack.

2 extra rounds/minutes/hours without needing to rebuff. harder to dispel. Baleful polymorph. teleport. quickened 1st level spells.

(and it actually works out to 4 more levels, if you take a full spellcasting prc after you finish bladesinger; which is disintegrate, greater dispel, and contingency. Quickened 2nd level spells. and a whole lot more.)

[Aetis]

you're probably better off with one of the elven variants that gets Rogue as a favored class. If there are any good ones. And maybe going Dragonborn, as well.

None of the elven variants from Monster Manual has Rogue as their favored class I believe. Dragonborn does not meet the racial requirements for bladesinger.


That feat list makes me want to cry. Dodge. WFocus. Combat Casting. Uuuuuuuugh.
You're probably better off taking Finesse and Expertise as soon as possible, and pushing WFocus and Dodge until as late as possible. At least from a survivability standpoint.
Getting combat expertise when my BAB is low seems like a waste. Finesse is only useful in melee, and I don't want melee until I have the AC to not get hit by enemy bruisers.


You;re probably better off at this level with a 0ASF option than a 1 in 20 chance to fail to cast each spell. Twilight enhancement, one of the low-ASF fabrics, or just a source for Mage Armor.

What's Narrow Profile from? I don;t know that one.

The problem is you're not going to survive that first round unless you win initiative. You're doing well, with a +10 Initiative (with a Nerveskitter wand in your weapon's wand chamber). However, lose init and you're flattened. You need an action to fight defensively and activate Expertise (and, IIRC, select a dodge target). And, IIRC, you need to be taking a standard action to attack, at least, to activate them both, which means no buffing even if you are aware/not surprised and have a round to prepare.


Narrow profile is a combat manuever from Einhinder.

ASF problem can be fixed by cash, so I'm not too worried on that front.

I should be winning initiative vs enemy bruisers, but I understand that I need some kind of a panic button to fall back on in rare cases that I lose init. Do you have any recommendations?

re: to-hit and damage. I simply don't see why I should bother trying to raise my damage at level 9? The party wizard probably have at least 10 different methods of bringing down the enemy bruiser at that level.. Literally all I have to do is buy couple rounds with high AC until the crowd control kicks in.

Flaws are not allowed. (UA is not allowed)

[Aetis]

I think you are confusing pounce with Leap Attack. Pounce: Make a full attack at the end of a charge. Leap Attack: do more damage with Power Attack.

2 extra rounds/minutes/hours without needing to rebuff. harder to dispel. Baleful polymorph. teleport. quickened 1st level spells.

(and it actually works out to 4 more levels, if you take a full spellcasting prc after you finish bladesinger; which is disintegrate, greater dispel, and contingency. Quickened 2nd level spells. and a whole lot more.)

My full attack consists of two attacks that deal 1d6 + 1, because I have no Power Attack.

Even if you add sneak attack, that's like 3d6 + 1 per hit. Most charger builds can do near hundred at level 9 on their opening charge.

I don't understand why I would want pounce.

EDIT: re: cool high level spells - These characters are not expected to go beyond level 12-13.

[Xervous]

I have a number of questions:

Why rage? I can't cast spells while raging.
I have no power attack, which means full attack + pounce does next to nothing.
Convince me that extra two levels of spellcasting is worth it, especially I will not be able to support my spellcasting with feats or massively high Int.

Pounce, the only reason for it is pounce. Barring another way to get reliable movement options to ensure full attacks you won't be swinging many times in combat unless the DM likes to line everyone up for a big ol slugfest.


Also: where are you expecting your damage to come from?

[Aetis]

Why do I need pounce? My full attack does next to no damage.


Also: where are you expecting your damage to come from?

Do you mean how I will do damage (I'm not), or how my party will do damage?

[Xervous]

Do you mean how I will do damage (I'm not), or how my party will do damage?

If you're not going to be doing damage, then what will you be doing? If you just end up with high AC and little more you'll suffer from monk syndrome whereby the monsters will all just ignore you because you represent no threat.

[Aetis]

Well, the monsters don't know how much damage I do until I go.

When the monsters wasted their turn charging me, then my party mage drops glitterdust/solid fog/stinking cloud/whatever appropriate save-or-suck spell he/she has packing to neutralize the monsters, and we're done.

[Aetis]

The sneak attack I got is simply a byproduct of my early game when I'm functioning as a rogue.

It also adds a nice damage boost to my coup de grace while I'm killing off monsters under crowd control.

The "ultimate weapon" for Dex fighters is a Wounding weapon, if it came down to that. (and it shouldn't come down to that)

The general tactic would be to expertise high enough to ensure their attacks miss, and slowly drain off their Con while praying that enemy doesn't nat a 20.

[torrasque666]

None of the elven variants from Monster Manual has Rogue as their favored class I believe. Dragonborn does not meet the racial requirements for bladesinger.

Dragonborn still count as their original race. Its more like a template than a race.

[Aetis]

What book are they from?

I think what I have in mind is incorrect.

EDIT: are you referring to the things in Races of the Dragon?

[Aetis]

2 extra rounds/minutes/hours without needing to rebuff. harder to dispel. Baleful polymorph. teleport. quickened 1st level spells.

(and it actually works out to 4 more levels, if you take a full spellcasting prc after you finish bladesinger; which is disintegrate, greater dispel, and contingency. Quickened 2nd level spells. and a whole lot more.)

Extra duration is not really relevant, since most of "buffing" I'll be doing is casting invis out of a scroll for my wizard in the event that I won init so enemy wizard can't celerity interrupt him or whatever.

If enemy caster spent his turn to dispel one of my spells, we probably just won that fight.

I told you that these characters probably aren't making it past 12, and defintely not 13. Wizard (conjurer) 3/ swashbuckler 1 / fighter 1 / Lion totem barbarian 1 / spellsword 1 / bladesinger 6 (a 13 level character) can barely cast 4th level wizard spells. I agree it would be super cool and awesome to cast those spells you mentioned, but they are simply beyond the scope of what we're playing here.

How does it work out to 4 more levels?

Wizard (conjurer) 3/ swashbuckler 1 / fighter 1 / Lion totem barbarian 1 / spellsword 1 / bladesinger 2 is a 9th level character that casts spells like a 5th level wizard.

Rogue 4/Wizard (Conjurer) 1/Unseen Seer 1/Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 1/Bladesinger 1 is a 9th level character that casts spells like a 3rd level wizard.

I suppose that your build gains another caster level at 10 while mine don't, but that only means that caster level difference alternates between 2 and 3, not 4, unless you were measuring the caster level differences at the hypothetical lv 20.

[Aetis]

My Dex Fighter (Bladesinger) optimization logic goes something like this:

Every Str mod gives you +1 to hit and 1.5 to dmg.

Every Dex mod gives you +1 to hit and +1 AC. (this isn't true as you hit max Dex of your armor, but it's true enough for levels we're talking about)

Power attack lets Str fighters translate accuracy to dmg, so Dex Fighters need to raise their AC to the point where Str Fighters cannot reliably hit, and therefore cannot use Power Attack and bring their superior power attack multipliers to the field.

This means that Dex Fighters need to take Combat Expertise (and eventually its improved version) along with other Dex-y/Int-y feats that raise AC (usually involving some dodge bonus) to match the arms race, with Elusive Target probably making the point moot at some point.

Let's look at how the math lines up when a Str Fighter attacks my Dex Bladesinger:

BAB gets evened out by Combat Expertise (and improved CE).
Every point of Str gets countered by equal points in Dex. (but Str Fighters usually put more points into Str than Dex Fighters do into Dex, so maybe assume +1 for Str, +2 for rage)
Charge bonus and fighting defensively cancels each other out. (unless you have tumble ranked 5, then Dex wins by +1)
Armor is usually Chain Shirt, which is +4. (any armor enhancements are canceled out by weapon enhancement)
Number of AC boosting items. Say something cheap, like +1 Ring of Deflection, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor (not canceled out)
Dodge gives +1. Einhinder gives you +2. Bladesinger adds Int to AC. (albeit slowly and probably caps at +2~5 depending on the build/items)

Str Fighter is going to miss, especially if he tries anything funny with Power Attack.

Which he probably will use. Since he's never seen a Dex Fighter in his life, and he will lazily assume the lightly armored enemy front liner is a badly positioned rogue that lost initiative or something. :smallsigh:


Compared to when Dex Bladesinger attacks Str Fighter:

BAB has been sacrificed for iCE.
-4 for fighting defensively.
Add Full Dex and Weapon Focus. (+6)
Armor is usually Full Plate, which is +8. (any armor enhancements are canceled out by weapon enhancement)
Number of AC boosting items. Say something cheap, like +1 Ring of Deflection, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor (not canceled out)

Bladesinger is going to miss. If he hits, damage is next to zero anyways. :smallsigh:

(My Bladesinger is forced to take all those crappy AC boosting feats anyway, while Str Fighter probably blew his feats on things like Leap Attack and Combat Brute that serve him well in nearly every scenario except here.)

Unlucky for both of us, a full-pledged caster can smoke us with the right spells in a turn, which means that simply by being able to fight the enemy Str Fighter to a stalemate for 1-2 turns, my Bladesinger bought enough time for my wizard friend to do his OP mage things. As a finishing touch, I made sure to get Uncanny Dodge to ensure I don't get cheated out of my immense dodge AC bonus. That's viable enough for me, and I still get to tumble around, cast spells, and have skill points.

I don't need to see posts like "Bladesinger is garbage" or "You need more damage". Yes, I know Bladesinger sucks, and no, I don't need more damage. Going more mage and less rogue is something worth considering at least. (but honestly, I think all the spells I want are in 2nd level, so....)

Honestly, only thing the Dex Fighter route does ok at is give you random dodge AC bonus. People do weird **** to try and get their Dex Fighters to match the damage output of rage fueled pouncing shock trooped combat brute, but that's like trying to pedal harder on your bike to catch up to a sports car. :smallsigh:

[Xerlith]

Why are you looking to function as a rogue? That's really, really debiliating for the character.

For the build to actualy work, you need damage to come from... Somewhere. Don't kid yourself, if you're just an agile weakling, you'll simply get ignored.
Swashbuckler3/Fighter2 allows your early levels to, you know, function, because you can hit stuff thanks to Weapon Finesse and deal actual damage thanks to int bonus.

It's a shame you can't use Drow of the Underdark and Tome of Battle. They are really crucial to be able to play a Dex-fighter well. Hit-and-Run Fighter and Shadow Blade feat are, well, THE Dexterity warrior abilities.



Anyway. Swash3/Fighter 1/Wizard2 qualifies. Grab the Martial Wizard to from Unearthed Arcana to gain a Fighter Bonus Feat instead of Scribe Scroll.
Grab a Bloodstone weapon and a few Pearls of Power, ask your party's actual spellcaster to cast Vampiric Touch into it, you'll open the combat with some more damage than you'd do otherwise. The thing is, that's still not too much.

Take the Arcane Strike feat and LOAD OUT on Pearls of power. you're going to nova with Arcane Strike as your damage source most of the time.
Go up to 5th Bladesinger level, then instantly switch to Abjurant Champion for next 5 levels. Then finish up with Bladesinger.

Final build would be Swash3/Fighter1/Wizard2/BS5/AC5/BS+4.

Ends up with 19 BAB, 19 CL, 6th level spells... Not that bad. Damage's still kind of lacking, though.



The alternative would be playing a Duskblade instead of the Fighter/Wizard comboing. Like, Duskblade3/Swashbuckler3/Bladesinger/Abjurant Champion. at least you'd be able to channel spells into the weapon for damage, get full BAB, all that jazz. You'd simply be primarily a finesse fighter with magic stuff.
Duskblade 5/Swashbuckler1 if you don't feel like losing too many Caster levels.



If you're looking to add Sneak attack damage to your roster, you need access to, well, some kind of SA boosters.

But you see, a Swashbuckler3/Rogue2/Wizard2/Unseen Seer 2 is in a point that they need a good Caster Level so that the Hunter's Eye spell works, while their Caster Level is not that good. Daring Outlaw is or is not worth it, seeing as it's only 2d6 damage. YOu don't get access to Craven, so that's bad too.


TL;DR Swashbuckler is a 3-level class for you, and you need them all.

And the PA-fighter's not gonna miss. Shock Trooper is a thing.

If you want to be a working evasion tank, you'd need to grab Elusive Target, some way of gaining Concealment... And access to Tome of Battle. Welp.


EDIT: Wizard6/Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)7/Bladesinger7.

EDIT2: This link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?274122-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-In-the-Playground-XLIII/page11) may come in handy.

[Pluto!]

If you're tanking your casting ability by going Bladesinger, and if you're not expecting to have any combat abilities due to being a Bladesinger, there are probably issues with your plan to go Bladesinger.

Either get a way to actually kill things or any optimization you try will be moot.

The one Bladesinger build that I've kind of liked was Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 5/Bladesinger 10 with Kung Fu Genius of Carmendine Monk. It's simple, it's elegant, it works with multiclass RAW, and it at least gets enough bonus damage to matter as a combat presence.

[Xervous]

Anyway. Swash3/Fighter 1/Wizard2 qualifies. Grab the Martial Wizard to from Unearthed Arcana to gain a Fighter Bonus Feat instead of Scribe Scroll.


sadly he can't use UA, on the flipside this allows the second level of wizard to be traded for spellsword in that instance

[Aetis]

If I can't emulate the damage output of the usual melee combatants, then I have no business trying to kill things in melee. And I can't emulate the damage output of the usual melee combatants.

For real melee damage, the usual way to make it happen by going 2HandWeapon + Power Attack feat tree, which I can't get because I can't use 2HandWeapons and I have no feats left.

The typical Swashbuckler/Rogue Daring Outlaw to stack up SA fails here because Bladesinger is not named Swashbuckler. Therefore, my SA damage will pretty much hit a cap around lv 6-7 ish no matter what.

Going Swashbuckler 3 lets me add Int to damage for.... total of measly 2 per hit. 4 if boosted. That's nothing compared to what PA Str Fighter can do. Anything after Swash 1 is a dead class.

I'm very sad that I can't do the UA martial wizard trick to get the fighter feat. Yes. That would solve a lot of problems.

Swash 3/Fighter 2 early game lets me deal 1d6+2 damage to things. Anything after level 1 has enough hp to tank that at least once, sometimes for several rounds depending on the creature. That is not how you win encounters.

Arcane Strike + Pearls of power is too inefficient money-wise, and the damage you get out of them still doesn't compare to Str Fighter build. (even if I were to burn every damn spell I have, it would still be not enough)

Duskblade/bladesinger is quite bad; just compare it full duskblade and it's easy to see the difference. Duskblade excels in single-target burst, and Bladesinger kills that. Duskblades are severely limited in their spell choices as well. I can't even cast a damn invis on my wizard as a duskblade. Going wizard for arcane side of things lets me cast real spells from scrolls/just straight cast and stay relevant utility-wise.

Again, if I wanted damage, I already know dozen other builds that do it well. Damage isn't something I can do lategame with a Bladesinger. And that is fine. Damage isn't something you really need, since monsters don't know how much damage you do, and by the time they figured it out, they already used up their turns and is getting wasted by our wizard.

Bladesinger prereqs force me to optimize AC, which I did effectively. The Shock Trooper build, the gold standard of melee combat, needs something like a 16-18 to hit me with his primary, and that's assuming appropriate challenge rating encounter, that's the only enemy, that we had no time to cast anything pre-dungeon, and that entirety of my party sans me lost init against him somehow. (all-in-all very unlikely)

[Aetis]

If you're tanking your casting ability by going Bladesinger, and if you're not expecting to have any combat abilities due to being a Bladesinger, there are probably issues with your plan to go Bladesinger.

Either get a way to actually kill things or any optimization you try will be moot.

Only thing going Bladesinger improves is my in-combat AC. Given the prereqs, I don't really have a choice but to optimize my AC.

I already explained why trying to kill things is simply not going to work, but it doesn't need to work.

[Aetis]

And the PA-fighter's not gonna miss. Shock Trooper is a thing.

If you want to be a working evasion tank, you'd need to grab Elusive Target, some way of gaining Concealment... And access to Tome of Battle. Welp.


EDIT: Wizard6/Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)7/Bladesinger7.

PA-Shock Trooper-fighter will more likely miss than hit. I'm not afraid of some +18 attack roll when I have 32 pre-boost AC. I did the math already. Only thing, as someone above rightfully pointed out, is in the case I lose initiative, unlikely but could happen, I get flattened badly. This calls for a need of a "panic button", or some kind of limited use Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card. Any suggestions for that would be appreciated.

Elusive Target nullifies PA damage. It mostly allows your character to run around at ****ty AC without exploding from PA damage. My character is forced to get high AC from prereqs, so Elusive Target contradicts that. I rather spend what little feats I have in raising my AC to avoid getting hit in the first place.

Concealment is pretty easy. Scrolls of blur/invis/mirror image are all very cheap, and you better believe I'll be using them.

As I said already, these characters are not going to make it beyond 13. Wizard 6/Swiftblade 7/Bladesinger 7 is not what I'm looking for.

[Aetis]

Question: am I allowed to use immediate actions while flat-footed, if I have uncanny dodge?

I'm pretty sure answer is NO, but I'm just making sure.

[Xerlith]

Well, a Wizard6/Swiftblade7 is a perfectly handsome Bladesinger, you know.

Jokes aside, Swash 3 IS your best bet. Int is your second most important stat, and you're looking at a bonus that will double your damage. 16 INt means +3 damage. On a 1d6 weapon? That's double. Add in Int-boosting items, stuff starts to pile up. Far from stellar, I admit. But so is the Bladesinger.

[Aetis]

Ok. I think things are starting to get bit repetitive and not really productive.

I will optimize on my own.

Sorry for your troubles, and have a nice day.

[marphod]

A key point the OP mentioned in a response:

This character isn't expected to play past level 13.

also

No Unearthed Arcana

So builds that optimize for level 20 are useless. Builds based on UA options are no-goes, and the character will need to be playable at levels below 12.

---

Which leads me to ask: Why Bladesinger?

If you're going a Gish (Caster Melee) there are much better choices (Single level of Spellsword; Abjurant Champion; unseen seer; anything that gets full or 9/10 casting and 3/4 or better BAB). Bladersinger 3 may not be awful, but past that, you're loosing too many caster levels to be relevant and aren't getting anything to make up for it.

To be playable at level 6 or so, you need to be able to survive 2 full-PA attacks from a bruiser and then find a way to squash the bruiser on your action. Each of those hits will average around 25-30 points of damage. You need to be able to reduce that to less than an expected value of 30; or for the first swing to hit less than 2/3rds of the time and the second less than 1/3rd of the time. That Bruiser is going to have +2 charge +6 strength +1 masterwork +2morale to hit (all of the BAB is in power attack), so you need an AC of at least 20 at level 6. Before you take any actions. That will let you survive 1 round before dying to a melee character. You're now at single digit HP, so you need to never get hit. You need a 31+ AC after your first action. And you need to be able to reliably do enough damage to drop your opponent, which is going to be around 50 hp. 2 hits, needing to get around 25 points of damage each.

Which you aren't going to do with this build. You need more attacks, more damage, a better to hit, or all of the above.

[Aetis]

I just want to play as one. There's not really any specific reasons for it, maybe a combination of flavor, uniqueness, underdog, and me being irrationally and foolishly stubborn. Dex Fighters always had a special place in my heart. I don't really know how to articulate it.

At 6, I would be 4 Rogue/1 Wizard/1 Unseen Seer. I don't think I would be just standing unbuffed in front of the party willy-nilly and let PA users charge me. I'd sneak around and get opportunistic ranged sneak attacks etc do whatever rogues do at levels 1-6.

In fact, I can't really frontline until expertise/finesse/einhinder kicks in, which is like lv 9. By that point, my SA shriveled up long time ago and my damage is about as effective as commoners with toothpicks trying to kill a zombie, so I fall back to the plan I described. I absorb enemy charges while trying to block charge-lanes to my backline. Maybe get a key invis/glitterdust off here and there. Doing damage isn't really important at lv 9, since any mage worth his salt can end encounters pretty easily.

re: damage. Let's say that there is some weird scenario in which I absolutely need to just deal raw damage. Maybe I walked around the corner and ran into unbuffed enemy wizard alone trying to take a shower or something and I won init. I full attack, sneak attacking with my rapier twice (no combat expertise = near auto-hit), and sneak attack discharge the shocking grasp I always cast and hold at beginning of the day. (TWF penalties is -4 and -8, but I still hit trivially).

Total damage is 2d6+2 + 9d6 + 3d6, or 51 on avg, easily enough to drop the unbuffed lv 9 enemy wizard with high Con.