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Jaredino
2015-07-16, 10:41 PM
I am in a group with a Paladin of Kelemvor, Kelemvor Lyonsbane being a god of the dead, and who HATES the undead. Since the paladins main purpose is to help souls pass on to the other side, trapping them in a corpse and forcing them to fight is like the ultimate heresy. As of now my character is keeping the necromancy secret from the other members of the party (in character of course, out of character EVERYONE knows my guy is learning necromancy spells) and I have a few ideas on how to use necromancy without getting in a fight with the paladin. I was thinking of just having some of my zombies follow the party, and have them appear from behind the party for reinforcements whenever we are in a bind. The main problem with that is that zombies have garbage dex, so the party would detect them without much trouble, and probably kill them. Does anybody have any tips on how I could play a necromancer so that either the paladin doesn't know, or if he does I can still do necromancy without having to fight him?

Lord Raziere
2015-07-16, 10:50 PM
Jaredino, the solution to this problem is:

Step One: talk it over with the paladin's player
Step Two: adjust your character to fit the party if that player is not ok with this.

and do not ever try to solve this ICly. that ALWAYS ends badly, for everyone involved.

goto124
2015-07-16, 11:47 PM
Why are you trying to do this?

The paladin's player isn't going to be terribly happy, for one thing.

The first step, is to talk to that player.

Chances are, you'll have to play something that isn't a necromancer... apologies, but your chances are slim.

Jaredino
2015-07-16, 11:58 PM
Why are you trying to do this?

The paladin's player isn't going to be terribly happy, for one thing.

The first step, is to talk to that player.

Chances are, you'll have to play something that isn't a necromancer... apologies, but your chances are slim.

The fact is that I actually started this character from level 1, and had intended to play a necromancer from the very beginning, since we didn't have a paladin at the time. We had a hard encounter, and most of the other pc's were wiped out, except for mine and one other guys. That led to the creation of the paladin, and I really don't want to try and tell him to not play a character, but at the same time my wizard has survived 5 levels of a merciless DM who doesn't fudge dice rolls, and I feel I should get to continue playing my wizard for as long as he survives. I am looking for solutions IN GAME, to clarify, not "just don't play a necromancer".

Lord Raziere
2015-07-17, 12:06 AM
I am looking for solutions IN GAME, to clarify, not "just don't play a necromancer".

There are no solutions in game.

this is not a roleplaying problem, this is a player communication problem. attempting to solve this in game will just end with the paladin trying to investigate where all the undead are coming from, this will eventually lead to him finding out about your character making undead then trying to kill him. or cause something similarly bad to happen, and either the paladins or your fun will be ruined. talk it over with him now to come up with a compromise or solution, or deal with the inevitable mess that will result.

goto124
2015-07-17, 12:19 AM
I am looking for solutions IN GAME, to clarify, not "just don't play a necromancer".

You need to talk to the paladin's player to figure out an in game solution he/she will be happy with. Otherwise a hideous mess ensues.

Wait! Why is the guy playing an undead hater if he knows there's a necromancer in the party? Talk to him about that! Especially when the rest of the party has been rather okay with the necromancer...

Dexam
2015-07-17, 01:21 AM
Paladin of Kelemvor, which means a Forgotten Realms campaign, yes?

This might be your solution.


Since the paladins main purpose is to help souls pass on to the other side, trapping them in a corpse and forcing them to fight is like the ultimate heresy.
If I recall correctly, and it may have changed since then, under 3rd Edition rules and earlier skeletons, zombies, and other mindless undead in the Forgotten Realms setting are neutral, as they are animated bodies i.e. the equivalent of animated objects, where the "object" is a body; there are no souls trapped in the corpses.

Technically a necromancer is still desecrating a body by animating it (a non-Good act), but talk it over with the Paladin's player and see if you can come to an agreement that provided your character sticks to mindless undead only, they might have some leeway in-character.

Keltest
2015-07-17, 05:23 AM
Paladin of Kelemvor, which means a Forgotten Realms campaign, yes?

This might be your solution.


If I recall correctly, and it may have changed since then, under 3rd Edition rules and earlier skeletons, zombies, and other mindless undead in the Forgotten Realms setting are neutral, as they are animated bodies i.e. the equivalent of animated objects, where the "object" is a body; there are no souls trapped in the corpses.

Technically a necromancer is still desecrating a body by animating it (a non-Good act), but talk it over with the Paladin's player and see if you can come to an agreement that provided your character sticks to mindless undead only, they might have some leeway in-character.

Unfortunately, its part of Kelemvor's creed that Undead are very Bad and Must be destroyed on sight no matter their size, shape, appearance, or alignment. The only exceptions would be the voluntary forms of undead like elven baelnorns or guardian spirits, and the chances of animating those every time are rather slim.

So yes, I would ask the paladin player why he thought it was a good idea to play an undead-hater in a party that already had a necromancer in it. There is a very good chance that if/when it comes down to it, you will get the rest of the party on your side and he will be the one to change character.

goto124
2015-07-17, 05:40 AM
At the very least? Change gods to one that doesn't hate undead.

Spartakus
2015-07-17, 05:51 AM
Unfortunately, its part of Kelemvor's creed that Undead are very Bad and Must be destroyed on sight no matter their size, shape, appearance, or alignment. The only exceptions would be the voluntary forms of undead like elven baelnorns or guardian spirits, and the chances of animating those every time are rather slim.

So yes, I would ask the paladin player why he thought it was a good idea to play an undead-hater in a party that already had a necromancer in it. There is a very good chance that if/when it comes down to it, you will get the rest of the party on your side and he will be the one to change character.

agreed. Playing a paladin in a party with a zombie animating necromancer migth work but a follower of Kelemvor propably not.

If you rely solely on necromancy-spells that don't create undead and are not evil it could, but wheres the point in playing a necromancer without having undead minions?

If he retcons his paladin to another god it is still difficult but can be made. First option is the lawful stupid Paladin and your creations provide a distraction for him ("Look there, undead! Destroy them while we ask this captured enemy some questions!") but this doesn't sound like a fun char for the PAL-player.


I'm intending to play a LN necromancer in a party with a good cleric soon and I'm picturing him to be an expy of NRA-lobbyists ("Undeads aren't unholy, the people who command them to do evil things are! We don't need fewer undead, we need more to provide protection of the innocent!"). But depending on which side of the Atlantic you live on this might offend other players:smallwink:

Sacrieur
2015-07-17, 06:15 AM
Time to start maximizing that bluff.

"These aren't dead guys... They're just uh... Sick..."

Oh or you can start casting illusion on all of your guys to make them seem real. Maybe you can just conveniently turn invisible while the Paladin isn't looking so he doesn't know you're the one raising all these dead guys. You're a wizard, this paladin guy aint got nutin' on you.



There are no solutions in game.

this is not a roleplaying problem, this is a player communication problem. attempting to solve this in game will just end with the paladin trying to investigate where all the undead are coming from, this will eventually lead to him finding out about your character making undead then trying to kill him. or cause something similarly bad to happen, and either the paladins or your fun will be ruined. talk it over with him now to come up with a compromise or solution, or deal with the inevitable mess that will result.

LOL NO.

He should talk to the DM about how to keep his rolls and such a secret from the player playing the paladin, so there's a minimized chance of metagaming going on. That's what I'd be worrying about, the paladin being metagamed into finding these undead. I highly doubt some idiot paladin is going to be able to find out where all these undead are coming from if the Wizard plays his cards right. And since he is a wizard, he has so many tools at his disposal for this it's not even funny.

Should I even start with the huge list of magical items that would leave the party's paladin confused and bewildered?

---

Oh and if it comes down to it, he's LG, you're CN. You can kill him, but he can't kill you without falling. There, now you can raise him as a leader of your undead army.

AzraelX
2015-07-17, 06:53 AM
I think changing the appearance of the undead would be your best bet. You mentioned that the only real issue is that the party will be able to spot them easily, which is what results in their death. It'd therefore make the most sense to just solve the "party spotting the undead" problem. Making them look like something else, or making them invisible, are both solid options.


Time to start maximizing that bluff.

"These aren't dead guys... They're just uh... Sick..."

Oh or you can start casting illusion on all of your guys to make them seem real. Maybe you can just conveniently turn invisible while the Paladin isn't looking so he doesn't know you're the one raising all these dead guys. You're a wizard, this paladin guy aint got nutin' on you.
The first on-topic reply.

Seriously, how many times does the OP have to explicitly state that OOC solutions are neither helpful nor wanted before people stop using his thread as their personal garbage dump? If you can't think of any solutions to his problem (and he's stated multiple times in multiple posts that he just wants in-game suggestions), that's cool; there's plenty of problems in the world I'm not creative or knowledgeable enough to solve within their required parameters.

The difference is that you need to be able to recognize that fact, and not try to force your own playstyle and group dynamics onto other people who've explicitly asked you to stop. Please have some respect for the creator of the thread.

goto124
2015-07-17, 06:59 AM
Why are OOC solutions not helpful? All I got:


I really don't want to try and tell him to not play a character, but at the same time my wizard has survived 5 levels of a merciless DM who doesn't fudge dice rolls, and I feel I should get to continue playing my wizard for as long as he survives. I am looking for solutions IN GAME, to clarify, not "just don't play a necromancer".

For the sake of the discussion, we shall assume that OP wants help coming up with IC ideas, so that he can bring them up with the Paladin's player OOCly and work together to settle on an agreement from there. In this case, there could be dishonesty between the paladin and the necromancer, but there really shouldn't be dishonesty between the PLAYERS. Dishonesty tends to get busted after a while, too, and it makes players mad when they eventually find out.

Sith_Happens
2015-07-17, 07:02 AM
Seriously, how many times does the OP have to explicitly state that OOC solutions are neither helpful nor wanted before people stop using his thread as their personal garbage dump?

Once. Which is once more than it's been so far.

Sacrieur
2015-07-17, 07:07 AM
I think changing the appearance of the undead would be your best bet. You mentioned that the only real issue is that the party will be able to spot them easily, which is what results in their death. It'd therefore make the most sense to just solve the "party spotting the undead" problem. Making them look like something else, or making them invisible, are both solid options.

Making them invisible is A+ doublegood.

I'd avoid anything that gives the paladin a Will save to disbelieve since you know Paladins have outrageous saves thanks to Divine Grace.



For the sake of the discussion, we shall assume that OP wants help coming up with IC ideas, so that he can bring them up with the Paladin's player OOCly and work together to settle on an agreement from there. In this case, there could be dishonesty between the paladin and the necromancer, but there really shouldn't be dishonesty between the PLAYERS. Dishonesty tends to get busted after a while, too, and it makes players mad when they eventually find out.

That's the DMs problem. If a player wants to keep something a secret he has every right to do so. I could go on about how a DM should handle this situation, but let's stay on topic.

Anonymouswizard
2015-07-17, 07:17 AM
I am looking for solutions IN GAME, to clarify, not "just don't play a necromancer".

Okay, some things first, I am going to assume you have tried them:
1) When the Paladin was created, had you told the other players, including Paladinperson, that you were planning on going necromancer?
1a) Did you explicitly say that you were planning on being a 'skeleton and zombie' necromancer? If so, you don't need to do anything, you are in the right, you had the character first, you were honest.
1b) did you bring this up as soon as you knew the paladin served an undead-hating god? If so, why has this not been solved out of game, by say the paladin moving to another deity.
2) Talk to the GM and player about it, see if they are willing to ignore that part of the lore.

Alright, possible in-game ways to make it work:
1) You do not see zombies as something that should be permanent, but rather a disposable tool. A zombie is something that you animate and use for a day or two, before respectfully unanimating it and dispose of the corpse as the original owner would have wished.
2) You do not make zombies without express permission from the ex-person. They've said they have no problem with it, as long as zombies aren't strictly illegal where you are you can called the law down on the paladin if he objects.
3) Illusions, bluff, or similar.
4) Play an anti-undead necromancer or debuffer necromancer. As you want zombies/skeletons this is a last resort.
5) Get the rest of the party on your side. If all bar the paladin are fine with you making zombies then the Paladin has no support.

goto124
2015-07-17, 07:20 AM
Backing up Wizard above me, expecially points 1, 1a, 1b, and 2.

Why couldn't it be handled OOCly? What exactly happened in that state? OP asked for IC solutions, which tend to fall apart when the OOC climate is unknown.

OP said "I really don't want to try and tell him to not play a character". Why? Is the player a stubborn and bad player? Did your attempts to convince the DM to kick him out fail? Is walking out a possible solution for you?

It's best if the paladin's player knows what you're doing and goes along with it, then the IC methods of 'necromancer hiding from the paladin' don't have to cover nearly as many bases. If you're hiding things from the paladin's PLAYER as well, then there's such a huge list of things to stuff under the carpet that it probably won't take long to get busted- if anything, you're acting rather suspicious around him, passing notes with the DM, etc.

Again, we're asking for the OOC situation so that we can adjust the IC solution to fit.

AzraelX
2015-07-17, 07:35 AM
Does anybody have any tips on how I could play a necromancer so that either the paladin doesn't know, or if he does I can still do necromancy without having to fight him?

I am looking for solutions IN GAME

how many times does the OP have to explicitly state that OOC solutions are neither helpful nor wanted

Once. Which is once more than it's been so far.
Okay then.

Anonymouswizard
2015-07-17, 07:47 AM
He has stated he prefers in game solutions, not that he doesn't want OOC ones. I only gave OOC stuff to highlight that to me it sounds like the paladin should spend 10 minutes either agreeing to changing his concept slightly to play nicer. What it might be is that the paladin player doesn't want to stop the zombies, but thinks an anti-undead paladin in the party will lead to decent roleplay.

AzraelX
2015-07-17, 08:25 AM
Making them invisible is A+ doublegood.

I'd avoid anything that gives the paladin a Will save to disbelieve since you know Paladins have outrageous saves thanks to Divine Grace.
Good point!


Why couldn't it be handled OOCly? What exactly happened in that state?
Not really anyone's business. He didn't ask for your opinion as a group therapist, he *explicitly* asked for in-game solutions.


OP asked for IC solutions, which tend to fall apart when the OOC climate is unknown.
No, they don't. You give him in-game solutions, and he'll use his own knowledge of the "OOC climate" to decide which of those suggestions he'll proceed with in-game, if any. He asked for methods within the game rules which would allow his necromancer's undead to not be engaged by a paladin, not for emergency forum assistance in preventing his group from falling apart.

Nothing he's said would suggest the latter situation is remotely applicable, nor is it acceptable to demand details to try to verify whether or not that's the case, because it is unrelated to the question he asked. Pretend the paladin is an NPC, maybe that will make the question easier for you to focus on.


OP said "I really don't want to try and tell him to not play a character". Why? Is the player a stubborn and bad player? Did your attempts to convince the DM to kick him out fail? Is walking out a possible solution for you?
I'm 1000% sure that a guy who said "I want IN-GAME solutions" has no desire or intention of trying to connivingly manipulate or badger the DM into kicking out people whose characters have competing interests with his own in-game.

Maybe the reason he's endeavored to make it crystal clear that he wants people to keep their advice strictly in-game only is because he doesn't particularly want to share his life details with the internet at large, and really doesn't care about whatever unsolicited personal advice regarding his real-life relationships they might have, thus he has no interest in listening to any useless pseudo-psychiatric advice and would appreciate it if it would stop polluting his thread.

I'm sure he'd also appreciate it if you might stop prioritizing your own desire to turn this into a real-life player conflict over his own stated desire not to hear it, at least in his own thread, which is specifically asking about playing a game, not for social insights from random forum-goers who aren't especially qualified to give that advice, and certainly not more qualified than he is himself.

If you can't answer simple in-game rules/ideas questions without knowing the relationships between all the players, well, that's on you. It doesn't change the fact it's totally unreasonable and inappropriate to continue asking for that information after he clarified that's not the kind of "help" he wants.


2) You do not make zombies with express permission from the ex-person.
I hope this is supposed to say "without" :smalltongue:


He has stated he prefers in game solutions, not that he doesn't want OOC ones.
This isn't a skewed RAW reading where someone can argue that they become immune to lava by casting prestidigitation on themselves. When someone says in all caps that they want "IN-GAME" solutions, that means knock it off with the OOC. At this point no one has any excuse to pretend they didn't understand what he wants.

That said, you provided five excellent in-game solutions in your post. You aren't included in "people who are willfully ignoring the OP's multiple requests to provide in-game solutions while demanding details about his personal life", which is inappropriate at best.


What it might be is that the paladin player doesn't want to stop the zombies, but thinks an anti-undead paladin in the party will lead to decent roleplay.
Probably, but due to RP reasons, the paladin will need to kill the undead if they're encountered. Either way, the in-game solutions for allowing his undead and the paladin to coexist will be useful to him. Thanks for your contributions!

AxeAlex
2015-07-17, 08:26 AM
You want in-characters solutions? Come clean with the paladin, and reach a compromise. You guys simply have to be humble in your interpretation of your characters and there should be no problem.

"Look my friend, I have something horrible to tell you, I hope you will be able to forgive me for hiding it to you for so long...."

"...But you see, the undead saved my life once, and I understand that I'm doing something wrong, but that is one of my best tools as a wizard to help innocent, still living people..."

"...And when we have saved the world, I will follow you, let you take me in, and I will allow you to judge me in front of Kelemvor. When this moment comes, I hope my actions can win Kelemvor's forgiveness"

Good thing is, your character don't even have to be sincere, but can still reach a compromise with the Paladin.

You admits your are doing something wrong and will turn yourself in someday (After the campaign), but the Paladin admits your magic saved his life in the past and he owes you mercy (Honor cuts both ways). He will tolerate your zombies (May even have a conflict with other followers of Kelemvor over it, bonus plot points!), first for the sake of his friend, and also for the greater good.

You guys are both here to have fun, compromise then go on. There is no need for the situation to be complicated.

AzraelX
2015-07-17, 08:39 AM
You want in-characters solutions? Come clean with the paladin, and reach a compromise. You guys simply have to be humble in your interpretation of your characters and there should be no problem.

"Look my friend, I have something horrible to tell you, I hope you will be able to forgive me for hiding it to you for so long...."

"...But you see, the undead saved my life once, and I understand that I'm doing something wrong, but that is one of my best tools as a wizard to help innocent, still living people..."

"...And when we have saved the world, I will follow you, let you take me in, and I will allow you to judge me in front of Kelemvor. When this moment comes, I hope my actions can win Kelemvor's forgiveness"
That's a great RP solution. I'd break the ice slowly to figure out just how zealous the paladin is regarding undead though, because once your necromancer puts that information out there, he can't take it back. Maybe broach the subject as a hypothetical to see what kind of reaction can be expected.

If worse comes to worst and your necromancer tells the paladin outright like this, and the paladin freaks out, pretend you were just kidding or that you'll never do it again. Then you can implement the other strategies in this thread, since they mostly involve ways to prevent the paladin from getting a chance to kill the undead in the first place :smalltongue:

Sith_Happens
2015-07-17, 09:18 AM
Not really anyone's business. He didn't ask for your opinion as a group therapist, he *explicitly* asked for in-game solutions.

Context, it's important. Then again you probably know that already, seeing as you very carefully excised it from your own quotes:


I am looking for solutions IN GAME, to clarify, not "just don't play a necromancer".

So far no one has told the OP to not play a necromancer. They've said either that the Paladin of Kelemvor shouldn't be playing a Paladin of Kelemvor (because the necromancer was there first), or that any attempt at in in-game solution is doomed to horrible failure without first knowing out-of-game what the Paladin player's angle is. And the second of those things is just plain true; for all we know the other player is bringing this Paladin into the game specifically with the intention of raining Smite Evils all over the OP's necromancy parade and won't take no for an answer unless explicitly called out on his bull**** (and maybe not even then).

Never mind that 90% of people who come to this forum "explicitly asking for in-game solutions" to intraparty problems do such out of either naïveté or spite, therefore the usual platitudes are the assumed right answer until proven otherwise.

AzraelX
2015-07-17, 10:04 AM
Context, it's important.
Yeah, it is. "I want IN-GAME solutions, to clarify" doesn't have any other meanings; adding "not [specific example he was replying to]" after it doesn't change that meaning. Giving an applicable example of something unwanted that was already said makes the meaning more explicit. That's how examples work.

I'm not sure how purposely skewed you had to make your understanding of English to conclude that giving an example of something invalidates the thing it's giving an example of.


So far no one has told the OP to not play a necromancer.
Cool. They actually did do that before his post. It's nice of them to not continue doing that, since it was an explicit example of what he doesn't want in this thread.

Add to that the fact it was immediately preceded by "I want IN-GAME solutions, to clarify", and it's not real hard to puzzle out what solutions he does want in his thread. Context, it's important.


any attempt at in in-game solution is doomed to horrible failure without first knowing out-of-game what the Paladin player's angle is.
No, it isn't. That's just plain false. It's cute that you think you can advise him about his group dynamics better than he can advise himself, and that you think he needs to detail his real life so you can give him these great insights you have which you're sure are both super important and will be really enlightening to him.

Nah. Plenty of suggestions were given already, which actually answered his question. He'll use his own knowledge of the group and the paladin to decide what to use. He's clearly a big boy, and it's clear he can handle the player dynamics at his table better than you can.

How can you tell? Because he clarified in all caps that he wants "IN-GAME solutions". Context, it's important.


for all we know the other player is bringing this Paladin into the game specifically with the intention of raining Smite Evils all over the OP's necromancy parade and won't take no for an answer unless explicitly called out on his bull****
Sure. Too bad it's not your table, or your business. He isn't asking you for your expert advice on sociological topics. I'm sure you're one button press away from posting a scan of your PhD along with a bill for your time, but your unsolicited opinion on his real-life relationships is not relevant to this thread or his request. So far you haven't once addressed the OP, or even pretended you had an interest in saying anything that might be useful to him. Instead you gave some fascinating statistical data saying there's a 90% chance the OP is naive and/or spiteful. Thumbs up, superstar.


Never mind that 90% of people who come to this forum "explicitly asking for in-game solutions" to intraparty problems do such out of either naïveté or spite
And 96% of people disagree with you, since you're 100% wrong. Too bad, looks like my meaningless fake stats beat your meaningless fake stats.


the usual platitudes are the assumed right answer until proven otherwise.
Which was around the time he responded to said platitudes, said he did not want that kind of reply, and explicitly stated he only wanted "IN-GAME" solutions in all caps. Context, it's important.

Sacrieur
2015-07-17, 10:11 AM
I've been looking into some metamagic:

[+0] Alternative Source Spell (Dragon #325): Prepare a spell as a divine spell for -1 CL.
Convince your Paladin that you're a wizard and can't cast divine spells, so it couldn't be you summoning the undead.

[+1] Deceptive Spell (Cityscape 60): Makes a spell appear to originate from a different direction.

[+3] Invisible Spell (Cityscape 61): The effects of your spell are invisible.
Convince your Paladin friend that you're actually a summoner just summoning evil outsiders and not raising the dead.

You can use the Misdirection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm) spell to redirect the paladin to ping himself, but he would get a Will save. You can also use the Seeming (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/seeming.htm) spell to make your undead to seem like something else (no save unless interaction). Then there's always the Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) spell, which doesn't have a save.

Create a Fog Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fogCloud.htm) to hide your undead.

The ultimate move here is Screen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/screen.htm) to hide all of your undead, which selective to just the areas where they appear, but it's a level eight spell.

---

There's likely bunches more, I only looked through the SRD spells. Not to mention all of the items you'd still have to go through that can play a role.

AzraelX
2015-07-17, 10:20 AM
I've been looking into some metamagic:

[+0] Alternative Source Spell (Dragon #325): Prepare a spell as a divine spell for -1 CL.
Convince your Paladin that you're a wizard and can't cast divine spells, so it couldn't be you summoning the undead.

[+1] Deceptive Spell (Cityscape 60): Makes a spell appear to originate from a different direction.

[+3] Invisible Spell (Cityscape 61): The effects of your spell are invisible.
Convince your Paladin friend that you're actually a summoner just summoning evil outsiders and not raising the dead.

You can use the Misdirection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm) spell to redirect the paladin to ping himself, but he would get a Will save. You can also use the Seeming (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/seeming.htm) spell to make your undead to seem like something else (no save unless interaction). Then there's always the Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) spell, which doesn't have a save.

Create a Fog Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fogCloud.htm) to hide your undead.

The ultimate move here is Screen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/screen.htm) to hide all of your undead, which selective to just the areas where they appear, but it's a level eight spell.

---

There's likely bunches more, I only looked through the SRD spells. Not to mention all of the items you'd still have to go through that can play a role.
Oh wow, there's all kinds of great ideas here! There's clearly a lot of ways you could combine these solutions as well, especially with all the previous solutions (and those become near infinite if combined with RP solutions). The necromancer's going to have more contingencies than a 20th level wizard who filled every slot he could with Contingency.

Thanks for all the effort you put into making a constructive post :smallsmile: It's appreciated!

Anonymouswizard
2015-07-17, 10:29 AM
Yeah, it is. "I want IN-GAME solutions, to clarify" doesn't have any other meanings; adding "not [specific example he was replying to]" after it doesn't change that meaning. Giving an applicable example of something unwanted that was already said makes the meaning more explicit. That's how examples work.

I'm not sure how purposely skewed you had to make your understanding of English to conclude that giving an example of something invalidates the thing it's giving an example of.

The actual wording is ambiguous enough that it could mean 'I want a solution that isn't "play something else"', but I will agree that 'I want no OOC solutions at all' is a legitimate reading. The problem is, not wanting OOC solutions has been implied (I got it, but posted a short rundown just to be on the safe side), which not everybody is likely to pick up on.


Cool. They actually did do that before his post. It's nice of them to not continue doing that, since it was an explicit example of what he doesn't want in this thread.

Add to that the fact it was immediately preceded by "I want IN-GAME solutions, to clarify", and it's not real hard to puzzle out what solutions he does want in his thread. Context, it's important.

Actually, what he said was 'I want IN-GAME solutions' not 'I don't want out of character solutions'. Therefore, as long as you offer in-game solutions as well as OOC solutions you are technically fine with what has been said. I think an important part here is that we don't actually know if the OP has talked with his DM and the player (I'm assuming they had, but it's up in the air), and so people are defaulting to the 'try and sort it out of character' advice which is generally more helpful.


No, it isn't. That's just plain false. It's cute that you think you can advise him about his group dynamics better than he can advise himself, and that you think he needs to detail his real life so you can give him these great insights you have which you're sure are both super important and will be really enlightening to him.

Nah. Plenty of suggestions were given already, which actually answered his question. He'll use his own knowledge of the group and the paladin to decide what to use. He's clearly a big boy, and it's clear he can handle the player dynamics at his table better than you can.

How can you tell? Because he clarified in all caps that he wants "IN-GAME solutions". Context, it's important.


Sure. Too bad it's not your table, or your business. He isn't asking you for your expert advice on sociological topics. I'm sure you're one button press away from posting a scan of your PhD along with a bill for your time, but your unsolicited opinion on his real-life relationships is not relevant to this thread or his request. So far you haven't once addressed the OP, or even pretended you had an interest in saying anything that might be useful to him. Instead you gave some fascinating statistical data saying there's a 90% chance the OP is naive and/or spiteful. Thumbs up, superstar.

To be honest, I feel like Sith_Happens isn't giving advice because he doesn't know that, but is simply stating that in his experience most problems he's seen on this board have been solved with some variation of 'talk to the GM or players at fault'. As far as I can tell, the worst Sith has done is to defend the ability to offer possible OOC solutions until such a time as we get information that makes them useless (such as 'I spoke to the GM and player and they laughed at me and said it was my fault for playing such an evil character'). Sith has never actually said anything on the OP's real-life relationships, but has in fact offered examples of why OOC discussion might be useful (I personally think that it's more of a 'I forgot your concept' problem, but Sith brings up a good point that it could well be a player deliberately being disruptive).


And 96% of people disagree with you, since you're 100% wrong. Too bad, looks like my meaningless fake stats beat your meaningless fake stats.

And I'm 8% likely to support you. In fact, I'm going to say that Sith is correct, a good number of problems I find here are solved with 'talk about it OOC' or 'just leave the game if OOC stuff doesn't work'. I'm not surprised people are defaulting to OOC suggestions, because I've really seen a problem such as this which has a good chance of just being in-character and not OOC, and can be solved with entirely IC actions (I wouldn't be surprised if the paladin player had just forgotten or decided not to use that bit of the lore).


Which was around the time he responded to said platitudes, said he did not want that kind of reply, and explicitly stated he only wanted "IN-GAME" solutions in all caps. Context, it's important.

You are putting far to much importance on the implication rather than the actual wording. Yes, it is entirely legitimate to read it as 'no OOC solutions', and there's a good chance that it was intended that way, but there is also a good chance that by in-game he just meant 'I do not want to change my concept'. The key bit of context is that we are missing a lot of it.

Plus thanks for spotting my mistake a couple of posts back.

Sacrieur
2015-07-17, 11:10 AM
This is ridiculous. Are we really arguing semantics over what the OP means. Did we all fail reading class or something?

---

I have another idea, convince the paladin that your zombies are actually part of your traveling dance routine. You put ranks into Perform to play an instrument and convince your paladin that your zombies are just disguised like zombies. When he asks why you can tell him...

Because you're not a necromancer, you're THE NECRODANCER. (https://youtu.be/u_avgU1u6yM) Show off all their zombie-like dance moves.

It'll work, trust me :p

dream
2015-07-17, 11:22 AM
Necromancer's dance routine-explanation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG6oy46qKE4)

After which, the Paladin will go Hulk on the scene & PvP abounds!

ArendK
2015-07-17, 12:45 PM
Wizards as far as necromancers go are probably the better debuff and drain style compared to divine casters, but lose out on the 3rd level version of Animate Dead. Logically, blast away with enervation, ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, etc. etc. The OP said they are only 5th level; no animation going on yet anyways, as AD is a 4th level Wiz spell IIRC.

But if there's some shenanigans where AD is already in play (house rules, scrolls, etc. etc.), then I recommend ranks in disguise and alchemy. Disguise your undead as men at arms and use disguise to outfit them and cover them up appropriately, and Alchemy will keep flesh from falling off (or on, in skeletons case). No other mechanical benefit, and I'm sure the GM wouldn't object to that.

Inevtiably, I agree that just breaching the topic as character to character in the form of sincere friends (and hope that the player is either on the same page or not a douchenozzle) is the best way to go about it for the course of the game. It adds plot hooks, character relationships, and depth as well as verismilitude.

I have played good hearted necromancers before; I voluntarily dropped his alignment to neutral just for accepting the fact that his regular antics were not a goodly action, but he sincerely believed in using the undead he raised to help people. He also never raised a "humanoid" even though ogres, trolls, and the like were fair game. Part of his ethics and "respect" for life.

Geddy2112
2015-07-17, 12:46 PM
You want in-characters solutions? Come clean with the paladin, and reach a compromise. You guys simply have to be humble in your interpretation of your characters and there should be no problem.

"Look my friend, I have something horrible to tell you, I hope you will be able to forgive me for hiding it to you for so long...."

"...But you see, the undead saved my life once, and I understand that I'm doing something wrong, but that is one of my best tools as a wizard to help innocent, still living people..."

"...And when we have saved the world, I will follow you, let you take me in, and I will allow you to judge me in front of Kelemvor. When this moment comes, I hope my actions can win Kelemvor's forgiveness"

Good thing is, your character don't even have to be sincere, but can still reach a compromise with the Paladin.

You admits your are doing something wrong and will turn yourself in someday (After the campaign), but the Paladin admits your magic saved his life in the past and he owes you mercy (Honor cuts both ways). He will tolerate your zombies (May even have a conflict with other followers of Kelemvor over it, bonus plot points!), first for the sake of his friend, and also for the greater good.

You guys are both here to have fun, compromise then go on. There is no need for the situation to be complicated.

I totally agree here. Don't try to hide it, just flat out tell him you are a necromancer and you use necromancy for mostly good things. Besides the necromancy, avoid things that might irk an LG individual like engaging in genocide, kleptomania, torture and murderhobodom. Now, before you tell the paladin about your academic interests, prepare all of your nasties superpowered spells in case he says "Undead and their creators must die, SMITE!!!" so you can defend yourself (it is key not to throw the first punch/spell) and kill him in self defense. If he accepts you and you end up working together, you have a great RP to work out how this undead hating paladin and necromancer are friends and working towards a common and greater goal. If not, you are a wizard so you should be able to win in a fight, then he rolls up a new character, or maybe he kills you and you roll a new character. Problem solved.

I will add my 2 cents in that OOC, the player bringing in an undead hating paladin to a group where there is an established necromancer is 100% bull. It would be just as rude if you were the established undead hating paladin and he brought in a necromancer. When somebody so rudely tramples on your character concept, it is their fault and they should have to lose the character/tailor their fluff/not be the jerk. I have given up too many characters I really liked after players brought in new characters(knowing mine) that just crapped on my concept. It is still bad blood; I wish I stood up for my character in and out of game.

icefractal
2015-07-17, 12:57 PM
Nothing he's said would suggest the latter situation is remotely applicable, nor is it acceptable to demand details to try to verify whether or not that's the case, because it is unrelated to the question he asked. Pretend the paladin is an NPC, maybe that will make the question easier for you to focus on.Ok - here's the thing. If the Paladin wasn't a PC, the solution would be pretty damn simple - stop hanging out with that guy. Kill him and turn him into a death knight if necessary. There isn't much IC reason for a necromancer to hang out with an undead-hating paladin, short of having strong pre-existing bonds that the OP has made no mention of.

So yes, I think people are leaning toward OOC agreements, because the most natural IC progression would be PvP that ends up with one character no longer in the group, and in many groups that's undesirable.

Sacrieur
2015-07-17, 04:53 PM
Let's quit giving the OP what he doesn't want (advice on interpersonal relationships). If he wanted advice on it, he'd ask us for it.

Fortunately instead of focusing my energies on giving the OP what I think he wants, I focused on giving him what he asked for, an IC solution to his problem. And I stumbled on a great solution.

---

I call this trick the Zombie Bag Trick. Yes, bag. As in Bag of Holding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding). I overlooked this before but then I remembered that the undead don't actually need to breathe and thus, can survive inside of a bag of holding. This means, effectively, that you can stash a vast army of undead into your pocket.

For the purposes of dealing with our paladin friend, we'll be dealing specifically with zombies. Skeletons are just too hard to hide. Fresh corpses are the best, and how convenient is it that we have a party of righteous do-gooders willing to make as many as you need. Once the party leaves take all you need and cast Gentle Repose (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm) on them. You'll have to continue to do this and you're likely going to have limited space in your BoH at lower levels, so it's best to pick the strongest one. But at later levels you can afford to have more weaker ones to act as cannon fodder.

Also get a second bag of holding and start putting the rest of the corpses into it, raising them as undead beforehand. You don't need to control them and thus won't count towards your total allotment. Shove the second bag in your first bag of holding (or handy haversack if you can afford it), making it inaccessible (and preventing any undead from being able to escape). Keep stockpiling your undead army this way, so that if the time ever does come, you can use it as a trump card and have more undead than your Paladin could possibly handle (or the rest of the party, for that matter).

As for the ones you'd use while keeping it a secret, buy or craft Hats of Disguise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#hatofDisguise), permanently altering them to look like however you want (mindless constructs or some kind of humanoid outsider works). Convince the paladin that they're just summons. Make sure you're continuing to cast gentle repose on them before it expires, so that their bodies never rot.

You can make them disappear by just casting any old obscuring ability and sticking them back in your bag.

Your paladin doesn't get to make a save unless he interacts with them, which won't happen I'm sure. The rest of the time you can stick to the debuffing part of the necromancy school of magic. And the party will never expect you're secretly a death lord, capable of raising an army in an instant.

And hey, if your paladin finds out about it, kill and add him to your collection.

---


There are no solutions in game.

I believe you owe the OP an apology.

Lord Raziere
2015-07-17, 05:14 PM
Seriously, how many times does the OP have to explicitly state that OOC solutions are neither helpful nor wanted before people stop using his thread as their personal garbage dump? If you can't think of any solutions to his problem (and he's stated multiple times in multiple posts that he just wants in-game suggestions), that's cool; there's plenty of problems in the world I'm not creative or knowledgeable enough to solve within their required parameters.


Just because its not the solution he desires, doesn't mean its not the solution he needs. any IC solution will only end in a mess. He either works up the courage to talk it out and nip it in the bud, or it blooms into a disaster. this is not one solution, this is ancient gamer wisdom: IC solutions to player problems never end well. this is a social hobby, you either solve problems socially or you only make them worse through miscommunication.



I believe you owe the OP an apology.

I do not apologize for giving good advice. I do not tell you things you want to hear, or lie because you don't want a solution. I state only what will work, what is needed, not what you want. Rejecting solutions out of hand because you don't want to hear them is actively counter-productive.

Jaredino
2015-07-17, 05:41 PM
First off, i want to thank everyone who gave me good suggestions on how to hide my zombros, and how to rp this in a way thay leads to an eventual resolution with the paladin. I forgot to mention i am playing 5e, but most of these solutions can be converted in some way (and my dm is allowing spell research, so i can just research any spells that aren't in the game right now). My party members get knocked out fairly often, so i figure might have a zombie bring a potion over to him while he is unconscious. The bag of holding trick would work great as well, to store entire zombies. My char has just been reanimating hands, and been having them grab onto the inside of his cloak. It is kind of strange how people started giving me advice on stuff that wasn't roleplaying, considering the title of the post. I still appreciate every bit of advice though, even if it isn't useful.

Sacrieur
2015-07-17, 05:54 PM
I do not apologize for giving good advice. I do not tell you things you want to hear, or lie because you don't want a solution. I state only what will work, what is needed, not what you want. Rejecting solutions out of hand because you don't want to hear them is actively counter-productive.

You know what really grinds my gears? When I have to contact some service provider for the details on something I want. They always try to tell me that I need something else when I know what I need. I say, "I would like to know about your internet packages," and the response I'm given is, "So we have bundled plans that are perfect for you."

It doesn't matter whether or not you think it's good advice or not, because he didn't ask for your opinion about how to deal with this OOC. He already handled it OOC, if you care to read the OP and doesn't seem to be an issue for him, but even if it were it would be none of my business because I don't know his group and I don't know his DM and I can't make that call for him. He did ask for IC advice and this poor guy now has a thread littered with people shoving their $0.02 down his throat.

You can't even see where you were at fault. You couldn't even be bothered to work on a premise with him and now you have the audacity to tell me that you were in the right to say that there wasn't an IC solution when I spent a few hours of my time researching and coming up with one?

You didn't just give bad advice, you gave false and misleading advice. Bad advice would be like advocating putting your bag of holding into a portable hole. But telling him there's nothing out there he can do? I can't even wrap my head around it. So you can either admit you were mistaken earlier and apologize to the OP for misleading him, or you can continue to drag your personal integrity through the mud, unwilling to admit you were wrong at the expense of other people.

KnightOfV
2015-07-17, 05:58 PM
Keep doing your necro thing in the open. Hiding it makes you look guilty. remember, you're not evil, and since he's a Paladin he KNOWS that. If he wants to kill you for your 'crimes' refuse to fight him and ask if he really wants to strike down an unarmed defenseless person that has been only an ally to him. Remind him you have not been on trial for your so called 'crimes', and that your magic is aiding the Paladin and that you are actively saving people and striking down evildoers with the gifts the gods have given you.

1.)only raise the bodies of evil foes that the paladin himself has killed for zombie fodder. When confronted, point out that the paladin already sentenced these creatures to an afterlife of torment, and there is no way you messing with the bodies changes the fate of their tortured souls in judgement. Put ranks into "Knowledge Religion" if your group is the kind that wants to roll dice to see if the Pally buys that theological argument.

2) be more useful to the party than the Paladin. The Pally might be willing to pick a fight with a non-evil necromancer, but does he want to fight an entire non-evil party that has your back? He should either have to suck it up, leave himself, or promise vengeance later after your quest is finished. Of course this is only helpful if you have other party members

3) If he still wants to kill you, and you have no one to back you up, promise the Pally you will go to his temple with him and turn yourself in after you have a night to reflect on the severity of your crimes. Murder the Pally in the night and raise him as a zombie. You are CN after all. :smallwink:




Don't really do that last one.

Sacrieur
2015-07-17, 05:58 PM
First off, i want to thank everyone who gave me good suggestions on how to hide my zombros, and how to rp this in a way thay leads to an eventual resolution with the paladin. I forgot to mention i am playing 5e, but most of these solutions can be converted in some way (and my dm is allowing spell research, so i can just research any spells that aren't in the game right now). My party members get knocked out fairly often, so i figure might have a zombie bring a potion over to him while he is unconscious. The bag of holding trick would work great as well, to store entire zombies. My char has just been reanimating hands, and been having them grab onto the inside of his cloak. It is kind of strange how people started giving me advice on stuff that wasn't roleplaying, considering the title of the post. I still appreciate every bit of advice though, even if it isn't useful.

You're welcome and I'm glad you found some use for it!

You can take these ideas to the 5e Subforum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?63-D-amp-D-5e-Next) and get them converted to work for you. I'm sure they'd have some new solutions for you too.

Best of luck with your necromancer lord, I love the concept and there's definitely places you can go with this character.

Berenger
2015-07-17, 06:32 PM
Case Modding.

Just clad the skeletons in armor or some type of rubber suit and pretend that they are some type of construct, golem or elemental.

AzraelX
2015-07-17, 06:39 PM
First off, i want to thank everyone who gave me good suggestions on how to hide my zombros, and how to rp this in a way thay leads to an eventual resolution with the paladin. I forgot to mention i am playing 5e, but most of these solutions can be converted in some way (and my dm is allowing spell research, so i can just research any spells that aren't in the game right now). My party members get knocked out fairly often, so i figure might have a zombie bring a potion over to him while he is unconscious. The bag of holding trick would work great as well, to store entire zombies. My char has just been reanimating hands, and been having them grab onto the inside of his cloak. It is kind of strange how people started giving me advice on stuff that wasn't roleplaying, considering the title of the post. I still appreciate every bit of advice though, even if it isn't useful.
You're welcome, glad we were able to help :smallsmile: Have fun with your secret pocket zombie army! I feel like you're only a few steps away from having a functional undead Pokemon battling system, but I'm sure that'll happen on its own in due time.

Anyways, sorry about all the off-topic posters, I swear we're not all like that :smalltongue: The advice I'd give you for the future is to post your thread in the d20 sub-forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?59-D-amp-D-3e-3-5e-d20); it's a sub-forum of this forum, but the posters there tend to be more relevant/helpful/knowledgeable than the majority of responses you received here. This is the forum where you'll often find posters without technical game knowledge just lurking around looking for fresh prey to criticize.

You can also check out the 5e sub-forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?63-D-amp-D-5e-Next) specifically, since its content will be directly applicable to what you're doing.

You could also try presenting your next problem as more of a hypothetical thought experiment that doesn't involve any players (it's totally hypothetical in-universe brainstorming!); if you don't let on that it involves real people, then the drama llamas seeking to squeeze drama out of a rock are less likely to slink out and harass you :smalltongue:

Not that it was your fault in the slightest. This was a quality thread, and I've gotten a few ideas for awesome tricks thanks to it. I'll definitely be putting some of these concepts to work myself :smallbiggrin: Thanks for an interesting read.

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-17, 06:50 PM
The OP has virtually no margin for error here.

This will either be a stunning success or a disaster.

I see no middle ground.

I'd play this character paranoid as the day is long.

I'd make him as politically savvy as I could.

I'd have the character become this paladin's best friend in the whole wide world.

I'd have him donate generously to charities and whatnot.

I would keep undead away from the paladin as long as I could.

The OP can make this campaign soar, or he can sink it like a stone.

The choice is his.

Telok
2015-07-17, 11:02 PM
I see no middle ground.

I have a Heros/Rolemaster supplement for ancient Egypt. They mention what are essentially good aligned necromancers who work for the police and are focused on putting the undead back down.

Necromancer does not equal undead maker.
Necromancy has more spells in it than animating and creating undead.
Lose the zombie fetish and stop trying to be an amateur Herbert West, be a necromancer.

dream
2015-07-17, 11:34 PM
The situation isn't that he's a necromancer, but rather that a paladin in his party despises undead. I'll be the least optimistic and say the paladin (and perhaps the GM with him) is gunning for the Necromancer. It'll be an excellent end for someone's PC, either way.

What's that old adage ...." never give advice in a crowd ...." :smallwink:

Username.
2015-07-18, 01:08 AM
The people saying that the OOC issues need to be considered are right because there's a serious chance that sneaking around to be yourself is a titanic roleplaying failure, one that is the result of extreme metagaming. If munchkin weren't a worthless and empty slur and actually meant what it was supposed to mean, "munchkin" could apply here. . . but munchkin is nothing more than a slur, so bullet dodged. And I bring up the term munchkin not because the OP has done something wrong -- he or she has done nothing wrong -- but because there's a rather twisted irony here: this extraordinary metagaming would, in any other context, cause observers who do think munchkin is an appropriate term to scream it at the top of their lungs.

It comes down to this:

Does the OP's character think that he's a ****?

Most evil people don't think that they're evil. It's cliche that evil is banal, and it's cliche because it's right. Fiction has tons of "for the eeeevilz"-type characters because fiction is silly and we like silly, but most evil people -- many world leaders, for example -- think that they're great. . . which is why they're so terribly evil.

So unless your character has the outlook of Victor Von Doom, he probably doesn't think he's a jerk, or worse. We'll assume, unless the OP says otherwise, that he's not a megalomaniac monster that Hannibal Lecters his way through adventures, reveling in the immorality he spreads, since that's the sort of thing OPs tend to bring up in their OP.

Which leaves shame. It's possible to have a world background where necromancy is considered not merely evil, but deviant, but FR isn't one of them (and such could never be assumed; it's not cliche). So we'll assume that necromancy != badtouching no-no places.

So, if your character isn't ashamed of necromancy, and your character isn't cartoonishly malicious, that leads us to ask: why would your character hide his necromancy from the paladin? Your character is a perfectly fine, upstanding member of the community. The paladin is an intolerant bigot. Objectively. You (the character, not the player) are his moral superior on this issue. What reason would you (the character) have to cave?

The answer is likely none. So, if you were rping the character to the hilt, you'd simply Be the Necromancer and tell the paladin to shove off. By failing to do that, you're most likely not rping the character well.

Now, that's a harsh charge. But again, we're talking about your character's identity here. Humans don't discard those without fights. People have died for dignity; throwing a jackass out of their social clubs wouldn't be a problem.

The "hide the bodies" advice is metagaming. Severe and extreme metagaming. Now, metagaming isn't inherently bad: your PCs are together because of metagaming. That's fine. Metagaming is bad when it creates character dissonance. Your PC isn't hiding the necromagic because he's ashamed or evil: he's hiding it because you, the player, want to force him to not be himself for the sake of you, the player. If you could ask the PC, in person, why he's shoving a freakn' mummy into an interdimensional bag, the PC would give you a thousand-mile stare and begin shivering in despair because he would have no idea why. The character has no reason to stop doing his job: he has every reason to stop doing his job with the paladin, and since he values his job, the paladin-free option would be the most valuable to him. Thus, he'd split with the pally.

So the problem is obvious: while this is fine behavior in-game, this is terrible for the group, which is why so many above listed this as an OOC problem. This has been coming up for over forty years: the "mixed party" style of campaigning, though a staple, requires a Big Excuse to keep the various odd-couples not merely not at each others' throats, but together in the first place.

Techniques to hide your zombies are irrelevant. If you're necro is a monster, you're going to kill the paladin; hiding zombies and disguising magic are just a set-up to that confrontation. If you're ashamed -- erm, you're not, because that would be weird, and FR is pretty much Generic Fantasy's generic fantasy. If your necro is a decent fellow (not necessarily saintly or nice, but just as civilized as anyone on these boards would be irl), then he will confront the paladin because that's what people do in real life. . . all the time. And the result probably won't be instant murder -- the party will likely make that tactically imprudent -- but result in persons leaving the party. Which is awesome, great, perfect, Grade-A roleplay, but bad for the game.

Which is why the situation is an OOC problem, not a roleplay problem.

Gabe the Bard
2015-07-18, 01:27 AM
Not quite sure if this is what you're looking for, but here's an idea. You could train an intelligent undead masked vigilante! He's a brain eating zombie by day, but a caped crusader by night. No one knows who he is, but he always comes to your party's rescue when you're in over your heads. After being saved from enough sticky situations, you're paladin will probably want to meet this hero in disguise and find out who's been helping the party. When he discovers the truth, he'll be taken aback at first, but he might change of heart and convert to a zombie-friendly faith, or maybe start his own heresy within the church of Kelemvor.

Anonymouswizard
2015-07-18, 05:12 AM
Ask the paladin which is more evil: creating a mindless zombie from a soulless corpse to do some manual labour, or enchantment magic? What if you replaced the zombies with people you had dominated into following you?

If you want you can spin a sob story about how a evil enchanter turned your village against itself, and you're out for revenge. Just make sure it's true or you have bluff

As I side note, as long as you aren't assembling a horde and do deaminate and resfully deal with the corpses, most of what you can do with necromancy is less evil than the enchantment school. The idea I like is having zombies dig their own graves.

Hawkstar
2015-07-18, 05:35 AM
Good implies respect for Life.
It says absolutely nothing about Freedom, which is actually a Chaotic concept.
Get back to work, citizen.

goto124
2015-07-18, 08:24 AM
I'll back up the 'don't hide' idea. Any troubles and problems will be cleared up soonest, and it's best to get them out of the way first.

The Fury
2015-07-18, 09:41 AM
And hey, if your paladin finds out about it, kill and add him to your collection.


"If?" No, if we're strictly sticking to IC solutions just get it over with. Kill 'im, reanimate 'im, call it a day. Heck, the rest of the players are probably cool with your Necromancer guy, right? If so, they won't object and maybe they'll help if the paladin puts up a fight.

If you're feeling cheeky, have the paladin's reanimated corpse test the next trap you find.

goto124
2015-07-18, 09:56 AM
Some of these ideas are both horrible and hilarious.

omnitricks
2015-07-18, 01:29 PM
As a guy who normally plays evil PCs when he gets the opportunity my suggestion is to bro up with the rest of the party (but don't try to keep the pally out for no good reason) If you are lucky, he will see things your way and not react violently and if not then well...the rest of the party will back you up (violently or politically because the pally will turn up as "that guy")

And the label seems to be the case because he decided to make a PC which will inevitably go up against yours when yours is already the established long time one in comparison.

In any case, people seem to think that paladins are these supreme anti undead killing machines but most of the time its because they are backed up by the rest of the party. Smites can only last so many times a day. Spells too. If you are preparing your undead minions properly you should be able to wear him out eventually. One of my recent undead strategies for my secret underground base was to make many low leveled undeads, hide them in pools and pits, have a few sacrifices per round but have them all aid another grapple and drag the pally into danger (this was for pathfinder) Undead has the advantage to be immune/unrestricted by stuff like air, poison, pain (DR), etc.

Also, FLYING ZOMBIES!!! FLYING!!!

Since you said you can spell research I suppose you couldddddd make a spell to make neutral aligned zombies so they don't detect evil and you can bluff the pally into thinking that those are not the undeads he is looking for.

But I would remind you the worst case scenario may not happen. My evil poison using rogue who was klepto as heck was able to bro up with our party's pally. The secret is in not doing all the abhorrently evil stuff in front of them and you shouldn't be forced to go out of your way to do things to please him. There really is no reason to because it depends on how much of a **** the player wants to be.

Jaredino
2015-07-18, 11:00 PM
The people saying that the OOC issues need to be considered are right because there's a serious chance that sneaking around to be yourself is a titanic roleplaying failure, one that is the result of extreme metagaming. If munchkin weren't a worthless and empty slur and actually meant what it was supposed to mean, "munchkin" could apply here. . . but munchkin is nothing more than a slur, so bullet dodged. And I bring up the term munchkin not because the OP has done something wrong -- he or she has done nothing wrong -- but because there's a rather twisted irony here: this extraordinary metagaming would, in any other context, cause observers who do think munchkin is an appropriate term to scream it at the top of their lungs.

It comes down to this:

Does the OP's character think that he's a ****?

Most evil people don't think that they're evil. It's cliche that evil is banal, and it's cliche because it's right. Fiction has tons of "for the eeeevilz"-type characters because fiction is silly and we like silly, but most evil people -- many world leaders, for example -- think that they're great. . . which is why they're so terribly evil.

So unless your character has the outlook of Victor Von Doom, he probably doesn't think he's a jerk, or worse. We'll assume, unless the OP says otherwise, that he's not a megalomaniac monster that Hannibal Lecters his way through adventures, reveling in the immorality he spreads, since that's the sort of thing OPs tend to bring up in their OP.

Which leaves shame. It's possible to have a world background where necromancy is considered not merely evil, but deviant, but FR isn't one of them (and such could never be assumed; it's not cliche). So we'll assume that necromancy != badtouching no-no places.

So, if your character isn't ashamed of necromancy, and your character isn't cartoonishly malicious, that leads us to ask: why would your character hide his necromancy from the paladin? Your character is a perfectly fine, upstanding member of the community. The paladin is an intolerant bigot. Objectively. You (the character, not the player) are his moral superior on this issue. What reason would you (the character) have to cave?

The answer is likely none. So, if you were rping the character to the hilt, you'd simply Be the Necromancer and tell the paladin to shove off. By failing to do that, you're most likely not rping the character well.

Now, that's a harsh charge. But again, we're talking about your character's identity here. Humans don't discard those without fights. People have died for dignity; throwing a jackass out of their social clubs wouldn't be a problem.

The "hide the bodies" advice is metagaming. Severe and extreme metagaming. Now, metagaming isn't inherently bad: your PCs are together because of metagaming. That's fine. Metagaming is bad when it creates character dissonance. Your PC isn't hiding the necromagic because he's ashamed or evil: he's hiding it because you, the player, want to force him to not be himself for the sake of you, the player. If you could ask the PC, in person, why he's shoving a freakn' mummy into an interdimensional bag, the PC would give you a thousand-mile stare and begin shivering in despair because he would have no idea why. The character has no reason to stop doing his job: he has every reason to stop doing his job with the paladin, and since he values his job, the paladin-free option would be the most valuable to him. Thus, he'd split with the pally.

So the problem is obvious: while this is fine behavior in-game, this is terrible for the group, which is why so many above listed this as an OOC problem. This has been coming up for over forty years: the "mixed party" style of campaigning, though a staple, requires a Big Excuse to keep the various odd-couples not merely not at each others' throats, but together in the first place.

Techniques to hide your zombies are irrelevant. If you're necro is a monster, you're going to kill the paladin; hiding zombies and disguising magic are just a set-up to that confrontation. If you're ashamed -- erm, you're not, because that would be weird, and FR is pretty much Generic Fantasy's generic fantasy. If your necro is a decent fellow (not necessarily saintly or nice, but just as civilized as anyone on these boards would be irl), then he will confront the paladin because that's what people do in real life. . . all the time. And the result probably won't be instant murder -- the party will likely make that tactically imprudent -- but result in persons leaving the party. Which is awesome, great, perfect, Grade-A roleplay, but bad for the game.

Which is why the situation is an OOC problem, not a roleplay problem.

Actually, necromancy is pretty frowned upon in this setting, since magic as a whole is not really accepted by the populace, and even if you join the mages guild, the average joe is still going to not trust you if you start messing with necromancy

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-18, 11:23 PM
You need to play this Necromancer so skillfully and so entertainingly that the Paladin's player routinely leads the rest of the game group in a standing ovation.

You need to play this Necromancer so well that your game group nominates this character for Best Necromancer in a Supporting Role.

You need to bring your A game.

You have taken on a DC:40 Roleplaying Challenge, and you need to roll a Natural 20.

Lord Raziere
2015-07-18, 11:58 PM
Actually, necromancy is pretty frowned upon in this setting, since magic as a whole is not really accepted by the populace, and even if you join the mages guild, the average joe is still going to not trust you if you start messing with necromancy

....so let me get this straight:
1. you want to play a necromancer in a setting where its not accepted
2. with a paladin who hates undead
3. without addressing any of this out of character, because you don't want to "ruin the other players fun"
4. and instead do a bunch of in character stuff that will only set or enable the undead-hating paladin to try and find out where the zombies are coming from and kill whoever is making them appear
5. and you want to survive and have this be a viable character that won't die or cause inter-party conflict
6. with a DM who according to you, is merciless in his rolls or whatever so that most of the party dies a lot.

......this won't work. It feels like I'm looking at the making of the roleplaying version of a Darwin Award.

I will advise, again, to talk it out with your group, to communicate and come to agreement with them on this.

because the IC setting is not conducive to your characters survival. IC actions will in fact, be detrimental because its colored by the settings bias that slants your character towards dying, because of what they do. your players however, should be on board with you having fun and being open to helping you have fun. I assume they're all here to have fun and be friends with one another, so I don't see any reason why you wouldn't talk to them.

I mean do you really think that the paladin player is going to be really angry or whatever if you approach them out of OOC and be all like "hey man, can we talk about our necromancer and paladin characters? cause I've been playing this one for a while and really want him to be a necromancer, and your undead-hating paladin character kind of makes me nervous cause I feel like that they could conflict and cause my character to die when I don't want that, and I'm sure you don't want your paladin to die either, so can we like talk out how our characters are going to interact so that we can work together and not cause problems for the rest of group because we have incompatible characters?"

because saying that is very easy and simple. people are generally reasonable in real life. I don't see why it couldn't be done. its not going to be shatter their world or anything. (and if they are unreasonable or jerks or whatever, then thats not a group you should be playing with at all: No Gaming Is Better Than Bad Gaming.)

Sith_Happens
2015-07-19, 02:54 AM
It is kind of strange how people started giving me advice on stuff that wasn't roleplaying, considering the title of the post.

That's fundamentally because, when you get down to it, the success or failure of any plan or trick we could possibly feed you is going to depend solely on whether the Paladin player is willing to play along. Therefore you really ought to find out whether the Paladin player is willing to play along, and if he says "No" follow up by finding out why exactly he's bringing a Paladin of Kelemvor into a party with a necromancer in the first place.

goto124
2015-07-19, 02:56 AM
Backing up the above post.

So far, OP has ignored almost all the OOC advice given in this thread.

If I can't convince OP to actually take the OOC advice to heart, since OOC is where the problem really lies (it looks like no one at the table knew he wanted to go necromancer, and both the setting and the players do not take well to undead - erm, why are you playing a necromancer in this case anyway?)...

Notice that they're now (at least) two people who'll not like the necromancer thing: The Paladin's player, and the DM (who runs the undead-phobic setting).

Please, OP, just reveal your necromancy skills at the very start. This way, the party can throw up any issues they have as early as possible. It's the best of the bad solutions.

TheTeaMustFlow
2015-07-19, 03:48 AM
Could always claim they're deathless or constructs or something. Pally Mcpaladin probably lacks the arcana or the intelligence to tell otherwise. Try putting the skeletons in full plate, put the symbol of local-pelor-equivalent over them, and say they're Sacred Watchers from the 3e BoED.

PersonMan
2015-07-19, 04:00 AM
You need to play this Necromancer so skillfully and so entertainingly that the Paladin's player routinely leads the rest of the game group in a standing ovation.

You need to play this Necromancer so well that your game group nominates this character for Best Necromancer in a Supporting Role.

You need to bring your A game.

You have taken on a DC:40 Roleplaying Challenge, and you need to roll a Natural 20.

I don't think he's taken on any kind of challenge, apart from 'avoid saying "don't play this" to another group member'.


....so let me get this straight:
1. you want to play a necromancer in a setting where its not accepted
2. with a paladin who hates undead
3. without addressing any of this out of character, because you don't want to "ruin the other players fun"
4. and instead do a bunch of in character stuff that will only set or enable the undead-hating paladin to try and find out where the zombies are coming from and kill whoever is making them appear
5. and you want to survive and have this be a viable character that won't die or cause inter-party conflict
6. with a DM who according to you, is merciless in his rolls or whatever so that most of the party dies a lot.

......this won't work. It feels like I'm looking at the making of the roleplaying version of a Darwin Award.

You do realize that he's been playing this character for a while, right?

You do realize that the necromancer was there first, right?

I'm not sure what sort of theoretical scenario you're discussing here, but it seems to be based on the premise of 'necromancer is the new guy', which is odd because it's the opposite of what's happening here. The necromancer wizard was a survivor of the party, and one of the replacements for dead PCs is an undead-hating Paladin. Obviously the necromancer is at fault, because he divined that the replacement to a PC would be an undead-hating Paladin way ahead of time?

EDIT: There's a lot of talk about other theoretical scenarios going on, too, in which the other players and DM don't already know and have known about the OP's necromancer for quite some time. This isn't him bringing a necromancer to an anti-necromancer table, this is him playing a necromancer in a situation that has become more difficult to deal with due to another player making an undead-hater. I don't see why people are acting like it's something else.

Lord Raziere
2015-07-19, 04:08 AM
You do realize that he's been playing this character for a while, right?

You do realize that the necromancer was there first, right?


all the more reason he should talk it out! if everyone knows, then why is that person making a undead-hating paladin, hm? I think that is something talk-worthy. its like, playing an orc for five levels and then having someone come in and make a character who hate orcs, there is no way I'm not letting that pass without a friendly talking to about how to deal with this so that we can both have fun. you don't leave stuff like that up to chance in the actual roleplay, better safe than sorry.

goto124
2015-07-19, 04:17 AM
Huh. I thought he was a wizard, PrCing into a necromancer. Or something.

Also, he said the setting was undead-unfriendly, so I doubt the necromancer has actually been there before.

But yes, in both cases, talk it out is the best solution. Why OP doesn't want OOC solutions is a mystery to us.

Telok
2015-07-19, 05:01 AM
But yes, in both cases, talk it out is the best solution. Why OP doesn't want OOC solutions is a mystery to us.

Because there doesn't seem to be any OOC problen to solve. Nobody at that table is ignorant of the other player's character and nobody is hiding anything out of character.

"Here, this wrench will solve your problem."
"Dude, it's calculus. Not plumbing."

Keltest
2015-07-19, 05:34 AM
Because there doesn't seem to be any OOC problen to solve. Nobody at that table is ignorant of the other player's character and nobody is hiding anything out of character.

"Here, this wrench will solve your problem."
"Dude, it's calculus. Not plumbing."

The first OOC problem that needs solving is the fact that there is a player who decided to make a character who is completely incompatible with the existing party dynamic. That is bad no matter what way you spin it. That player should not have made a Paladin of Kelemvor in a party with an -undead creating necromancer. Unless he is a new player as well as a new character, he should know this would cause problems, so it begs the question of why he did it anyway.

Beyond that though, as was mentioned above, any in character attempts to mitigate the problem are going to fall flat if the paladin's player doesn't play along. Even if its as simple as "lets decide in advance on what the dynamic between our characters will be.", something needs to be done to make sure nobody is setting fires in the tinderbox.

But if the OP absolutely insists on trying to treat a symptom instead of the disease, he could talk with the DM and see if he cant get into a pact with Kelemvor to animate his undead with earth elemental spirits or something instead of the spirits of the dead, because he really needs the minions but doesn't want to make the paladin (or Kelemvor) especially mad at him.

Anonymouswizard
2015-07-19, 08:36 AM
Because there doesn't seem to be any OOC problen to solve. Nobody at that table is ignorant of the other player's character and nobody is hiding anything out of character.

"Here, this wrench will solve your problem."
"Dude, it's calculus. Not plumbing."

Actually, we have no OOC information at all, for all we know this could be a character concept war where each player brings in a character that stomps on the other player's concept.

PersonMan
2015-07-19, 08:43 AM
Huh. I thought he was a wizard, PrCing into a necromancer. Or something.

Also, he said the setting was undead-unfriendly, so I doubt the necromancer has actually been there before.

'Necromancy is frowned upon / feared by the normal people' is pretty standard, though. I have never played in a world where 'your average peasant will scream and run if you walk into town with your skeleton parade' is both true and indicative of some kind of GM anti-necromancer sentiment.

Sacrieur
2015-07-19, 08:50 AM
Stop. Just stop.

He doesn't want to hear your OOC advice. He didn't ask for your OOC advice. It's unsolicited and unwanted which makes everyone's attempt to keep giving it AFTER he said he didn't want it harassment. Please stop harassing the OP. If you can't help answer his question, then don't bother posting.

Anonymouswizard
2015-07-19, 09:32 AM
Stop. Just stop.

He doesn't want to hear your OOC advice.

This has never been stated or clarified, so while it might be true we have no way of knowing. It has been vaguely implied, but the only OOC advice we know the OP doesn't want is 'don't play a necromaner'.

OP, can you please clarify on the OOC advice thing, so we can stop this argument.


He didn't ask for your OOC advice. It's unsolicited and unwanted which makes everyone's attempt to keep giving it AFTER he said he didn't want it harassment. Please stop harassing the OP. If you can't help answer his question, then don't bother posting.

To be fair, half of the OOC advice is 'dude, make sure this doesn't facture the group, be clear with the Paladin's player that this is what you're doing, just don't tell him IC'. The other half is 'see if you can try to reach a solution OOC, because you should not have to go out of your way to play an established character'.

Sacrieur
2015-07-19, 11:04 AM
This has never been stated or clarified, so while it might be true we have no way of knowing. It has been vaguely implied, but the only OOC advice we know the OP doesn't want is 'don't play a necromaner'.


I am looking for solutions IN GAME, to clarify, not "just don't play a necromancer".

It is kind of strange how people started giving me advice on stuff that wasn't roleplaying, considering the title of the post. I still appreciate every bit of advice though, even if it isn't useful.

This isn't vaguely implied at all. It's not vague in the slightest.



OP, can you please clarify on the OOC advice thing, so we can stop this argument.

It was clarified three times. Once in the thread title, once in his second post, and once in his third post. In fact every time he posted he clarified it. I'm not going to argue semantics; it would be extraordinarily obtuse to say you don't know that he doesn't want OOC advice.



To be fair, half of the OOC advice is 'dude, make sure this doesn't facture the group, be clear with the Paladin's player that this is what you're doing, just don't tell him IC'. The other half is 'see if you can try to reach a solution OOC, because you should not have to go out of your way to play an established character'.

To be fair, he didn't ask for any of it.

But I'm not going to let this turn into an argument. I don't want to get the mods involved, but if he's continued to be harassed I'll have no choice but to submit this thread for review. I don't hold any malice towards anyone, but no one should be subjected to a kind of callous behavior.

Keltest
2015-07-19, 11:18 AM
This isn't vaguely implied at all. It's not vague in the slightest.




It was clarified three times. Once in the thread title, once in his second post, and once in his third post. In fact every time he posted he clarified it. I'm not going to argue semantics; it would be extraordinarily obtuse to say you don't know that he doesn't want OOC advice.




To be fair, he didn't ask for any of it.

But I'm not going to let this turn into an argument. I don't want to get the mods involved, but if he's continued to be harassed I'll have no choice but to submit this thread for review. I don't hold any malice towards anyone, but no one should be subjected to a kind of callous behavior.

You are escalating this far beyond the level it needs to go. There is no "harassment" here, the OP is simply being told that the kind of solution he is looking for is going to cause new problems and/or fail to solve the existing problems, and that he should look for different solutions.

There is nothing in the forum rules prohibiting us from telling the OP of a thread when something seems destined for bad things.

Anonymouswizard
2015-07-19, 11:20 AM
This isn't vaguely implied at all. It's not vague in the slightest.

Said:

Please give me roleplaying advice.
I want IN-GAME solutions.
Do not suggest not playing a necromancer.
Thank you for all the advice given, even if not what I asked for.


Not Said

I do not want any out of character advice at all.
Please stop giving out of character advice.
I only want in-character advice, not anything else.
Variations on the above statements.


You are assuming you reading of saying what advice should be included is more obvious than mine of seeing what should be excluded, and that it's the only legitimate reading. This is why I'm asking the OP for a definitive answer, as all he's said is that 'advice that wasn't asked for was given, and thanks for being considerate, even if not all of it is helpful'.


It was clarified three times. Once in the thread title, once in his second post, and once in his third post. In fact every time he posted he clarified it. I'm not going to argue semantics; it would be extraordinarily obtuse to say you don't know that he doesn't want OOC advice.

X (do not play a necromancer) does not always equal not Y (in-game advice). Or to put it in another way, sometimes X!=!Y. He asked for one type of advice, then asked for a VERY SPECIFIC sort of advice to stop, then said 'not all of the advice is useful', which the most heavily implied 'no OOC advice please' but still nowhere near certain. Maybe some of the OOC advice was useful, but not all, the same with the in-character advice. This is why I am asking the OP whether or not he wants OOC advice, to the point where either 'no, I don't, and can you please stop posting it' or 'I don't mind, but I probably won't find it useful' are the two answers I expect.


To be fair, he didn't ask for any of it.

But I'm not going to let this turn into an argument. I don't want to get the mods involved, but if he's continued to be harassed I'll have no choice but to submit this thread for review. I don't hold any malice towards anyone, but no one should be subjected to a kind of callous behavior.

No, but he only asked for one bit of it to stop. He hasn't actually asked for out of character advice to stop yet, which is why I've asked him if he wants it twice, explicitly at least once.

Also, I agree with Keltest, I'm just replying to your points so you can see why some of us might be of a different mind to you on it.

saeval
2015-07-19, 11:28 AM
I like everyone Valiantly defending the OP's In-Game only request... If I didn't know better I'd think they were a damsel in distress. All anyone is trying to say, which is pretty clear here, is that this scenario, reeks of lack of communication.

He shouldn't be worried about his established characters place in the party in the first place. It's fantastic that he's trying to find the most amiable way to go about it in game... but it is not an in game problem. The player playing the Paladin, needs to cooperate with whatever scenario is presented.

I was going to make a much longer rant. I know everyone is lacking in OOC info from OP, I know that is intentional. You shouldn't be shouting down people that are not -judging- but really showing empathy and taking their time to try to make sure the persons gaming experience is not about to implode. The scenario, from people reading what the first post is, looks like an entirely social problem, even with the request to keep it in game.

Every solution presented is not clever enough to get around a paladin player who does not want to party with a necromancer.

neonagash
2015-07-19, 12:39 PM
---

I have another idea, convince the paladin that your zombies are actually part of your traveling dance routine. You put ranks into Perform to play an instrument and convince your paladin that your zombies are just disguised like zombies. When he asks why you can tell him...

Because you're not a necromancer, you're THE NECRODANCER. (https://youtu.be/u_avgU1u6yM) Show off all their zombie-like dance moves.

It'll work, trust me :p

I prefer https://youtu.be/5kWTNE0myY0

Sith_Happens
2015-07-19, 01:01 PM
Every solution presented is not clever enough to get around a paladin player who does not want to party with a necromancer.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/004654674/2423269999_hes20right20you20know_answer_1_xlarge.j peg

Maybe this is solvable in-game, maybe it's not. We don't know. Personally, I'd rather not waste time giving advice that might be doomed to failure from the beginning. Which is why it'd be nice to know if half the thread has been wasting their time.

Username.
2015-07-19, 01:01 PM
As for the posters white-knighting and projecting their own assumptions into the OP. . . well, it should be enough to note that that's happening.


Actually, necromancy is pretty frowned upon in this setting, since magic as a whole is not really accepted by the populace, and even if you join the mages guild, the average joe is still going to not trust you if you start messing with necromancy

. . . which was addressed in my last post. If your character is doing something he believes is morally wrong, he'll have to fight the paladin or break ties with the paladin. If the character believes that his behavior is appropriate, he'll have to do the exact same thing but will do so without skullduggery. And no matter what he does, it has to be discussed OOCly because interparty conflict has to be worked out OOC lest you cause actual harm to real people, not characters. And note: what the population in the immediate area (FR is big, and different places have different opinions) think isn't important: what's important is your character.

To determine your character's behavior, you have to ask: how does my character feel about his powers?

To execute your character's behavior, you have to speak to the paladin player, at a minimum. It's the mature thing to do.

goto124
2015-07-19, 08:14 PM
I'm still rather curious as to why OP doesn't want OOC advice.

It's why I suggested the necromancer tell the paladin everything ASAP. It'll let the party bring up any issues they have right away. If it's gonna implode, might as well do it now, instead of going through all the trouble of hiding things for months/weeks/days to end up with the same (or worse) results. Applies both IC and OOC.

Marlowe
2015-07-20, 12:22 AM
"Look, dude. I don't agree with your personal philosophy and you don't agree with mine. You might think I'm a vile scourge on creation and I might think you're an inflexible amateur who didn't even have the brains to take levels in a class that might give you the power to back up your convictions. But the world might depend on us working together so let's put that aside.

"You don't like Undead? Fine. I'm not too fond of the either. Smelly, messy, and terrible conversationalists. But the thing is, have you ever heard of somebody making Undead from something that's already been Undead? Ever heard of a pre-loved skeleton or a second-time zombie? No. Because you need an intact body, and that's not what they're going to be after they get put down.

"These things I'm making Undead from? They're already dead. Making them Undead won't make them deader and leaving them here won't make them live again. But more importantly, if we just let them be, then that means ANYONE could come along at some point in the future and turn them into Undead killing machines. Any corpse is an Undead waiting to happen. I'm not the only necromancer out there, or the only necromancer that ever will be.

"These other necromancers, they might not just be neutral. They'll probably be actually EVIL. And they almost certainly won't have some Holier-than-God No-alchohol Cleric riding their coat-tails telling them what to do all the time. These other necromancers CAN get to these corpses, and they WILL use them for evil. Nothing you can do to stop that, less you want to burn anything dead we find and that'll get tedious very quickly, not to mention an act of questionably morality considering the cultures that would probably count that as desecration.

"As long as it's me doing this, and we stay on the chatty side of being mortal enemies, you have some say in how my unholy powers get used, and some control of whether they serve good or evil. You just let these corpses lie around, buried deep as you like, you don't have that. You're just storing up a problem for tomorrow for others to deal with.

"So how about I get on with my job, you take a little walk in the woods and maybe work your feelings out against a tree, and maybe we can both work together on dealing with the real problems. Deal?"

Rakoa
2015-07-20, 01:00 AM
*sniff* That was beautiful, Marlowe.

neonagash
2015-07-20, 01:23 AM
This definitely can't be solved in game alone.

I'm sure we've all seen someone try it before (or something similar) and sooner or later the palidan PLAYER decides he doesn't like being played for a fool and causes an OOC eruption of trouble.

Unless its talked about OOC first that's as sure as day following night.

Why waste time? Have the conversation that sooner or later you need to have anyway. Just be smart and do it before there's built up resentment and hurt feelings to also handle.

Segev
2015-07-20, 01:36 PM
Okay, I'm going to do what several others have done, and start with the OOC situation. I will, absent corrections to the contrary, make certain assumptions about it for my IC suggestions.

1) This will only work if the PLAYERS of both parties are colluding to ensure that their CHARACTERS can get along.
2) Since the Paladin is coming in to an established game wherein the Necromancer is already a player, it is incumbant upon the PALADIN'S PLAYER to convince the DM and the Necromancer's player that the Paladin can be made to work with a party that includes a CN Necromancer.
3) To this end, the Paladin's player needs to be involved in this, too, because he needs to agree to whatever it takes to make it work.

I laud you for being willing to accommodate a paladin, O Necromancer player, but remember that it is HIS responsibility, as the incoming player, to ensure that his character is compatible with the existing dynamic. It is with the assumption that he is willing to be complicit in making HIS character work - knowing that, if conflict arises to the point that one PC must leave, it should be his - that I will give my IC advice.

1) Full plate. Seriously, create a fictious order of armored mercenaries that you either head or which you hire, and have it be one with a vow of silence. Dress them all in all-concealing plate, using cloth to bulk up the armor if needs be.
2) Have a good, solid reason why this Paladin NEEDS to work with this party, and make sure that it's clear in the party dynamic that your Necromancer has seniority. Not because your Necromancer lords this over anybody, but just in the "if one of you turns on the other, the party is default going to side with the Necromancer" sense. This reason the Paladin NEEDS to work with you gives him a reason to turn a blind eye to any suspicions he might have about the nature of your "mercenaries."
3) Misdirection will let you hide the evil undead aura by tying it to their plate mail.
4) Illusions, if you have access to them, can glamour the undead to look alive. A waterskin which pours out illusory water and douses the user in a disguise self spell should be sufficient; have your zombies "douse" themselves before taking off their helmets, and pass the thing around.
5) Come up with cover stories for reasons why they react to certain things as undead, rather than as living people would. "They're fanatically loyal/dedicated" would cover lack-of-fear and other suicidal actions. Being turned could be a sign that the enemy cleric is using some sort of Unholy Word effect, honest.
6) Finally, remember that your Paladin's player needs to be complicit in his own PC's ignorance; work with him to come up with excuses, to find any means the Paladin is likely to use to detect your undead, and find work-arounds or reasons why his Paladin wouldn't do that. This is at least as much on the Paladin's player to figure out reasons why he can't or won't tell that you're a necromaster minionmancer as it is upon you to cooperate by trying to keep the secret.


Done right, you should be able to keep the secret with only a wink and a nod, as the Paladin's player keeps the Paladin from "realizing" by as many means and excuses as he can. Do do your best to not give him reason to be suspicious, but expect him to do his best to ignore reasons for suspicion, OOC, even if it means his paladin's a bit dense-seeming, mechanically.

Jaredino
2015-07-20, 03:22 PM
Man, I can't believe this thread is still getting posts, and that half of them are just arguing over what I mean't. I understand people telling me that this is an OOC problem, but me and the person playing the paladin have already talked it over. Believe it or not, he offered to have his guy act more friendly towards the undead so as to avoid any issues that might arise, but everybody in the group (including the GM) decided that it having a minor conflict would present better roleplaying possibilities than just sweeping it under the rug. Once again, I have to thank the people who gave me some good dialogue options for when the paladin eventually does find out. Also, to clarify, my issue is totally unrelated to anything OOC, me and the guy who plays the paladin get along fine, and everybody on the table is on the same page.

Anonymouswizard
2015-07-20, 03:27 PM
Man, I can't believe this thread is still getting posts, and that half of them are just arguing over what I mean't. I understand people telling me that this is an OOC problem, but me and the person playing the paladin have already talked it over. Believe it or not, he offered to have his guy act more friendly towards the undead so as to avoid any issues that might arise, but everybody in the group (including the GM) decided that it having a minor conflict would present better roleplaying possibilities than just sweeping it under the rug. Once again, I have to thank the people who gave me some good dialogue options for when the paladin eventually does find out. Also, to clarify, my issue is totally unrelated to anything OOC, me and the guy who plays the paladin get along fine, and everybody on the table is on the same page.

Posters here are just so used to problems that should be solved with OOC solutions, it would probably be better to note that OOC conflicts are solved before asking for roleplaying ideas in future. Otherwise this board will run on for several pages with half the posters giving OOC advice and the other half saying you didn't want it.

To be fair, it will normally at the same time be given alongside ideas that'll destroy the campaign if the fact that it's been resolved OOC isn't noted.

Keltest
2015-07-20, 03:29 PM
Man, I can't believe this thread is still getting posts, and that half of them are just arguing over what I mean't. I understand people telling me that this is an OOC problem, but me and the person playing the paladin have already talked it over. Believe it or not, he offered to have his guy act more friendly towards the undead so as to avoid any issues that might arise, but everybody in the group (including the GM) decided that it having a minor conflict would present better roleplaying possibilities than just sweeping it under the rug. Once again, I have to thank the people who gave me some good dialogue options for when the paladin eventually does find out. Also, to clarify, my issue is totally unrelated to anything OOC, me and the guy who plays the paladin get along fine, and everybody on the table is on the same page.
Not to harp on the issue, but had you mentioned that the OOC part of the issue had been addressed and the Paladin was already open to cooperating, that would have been helpful a lot sooner.

Anyway, im still fond of the idea of entering a pact with Kelemvor that establishes limits on what you can and cannot do with the undead in exchange for less... unpleasant methods of animation.

runeghost
2015-07-20, 04:11 PM
There are no solutions in game.

this is not a roleplaying problem, this is a player communication problem. attempting to solve this in game will just end with the paladin trying to investigate where all the undead are coming from, this will eventually lead to him finding out about your character making undead then trying to kill him. or cause something similarly bad to happen, and either the paladins or your fun will be ruined. talk it over with him now to come up with a compromise or solution, or deal with the inevitable mess that will result.


It's readily solvable in game: kill paladin, animate paladin as mindless undead, problem solved! The OP's necromancer is level 5, the paladin is a brand new PC, so taking him out should be easy. Depending on the campaign and players, that could easily cause lots of in-game and out-of-game problems. But the problem will no longer be an undead hating paladin in the party! :smallbiggrin:

Alternative, inform the paladin straight-up that they're not undead, they're Partially Raised, and how dare he discriminate against the recently deceased, mortally challenged members of society! Get a government official of some type to issue a formal-looking piece of paper saying that your zombies are legal. "Here's my non-sapient undead license, Mr. Paladin."

Ultimately, it comes down to what type of game the GM runs, and what kind of players the OP is playing with.

Edited to reflect OP's additional information.

ShaneMRoth
2015-07-20, 05:10 PM
...
everybody in the group (including the GM) decided that it having a minor conflict would present better roleplaying possibilities than just sweeping it under the rug. Once again, I have to thank the people who gave me some good dialogue options for when the paladin eventually does find out. Also, to clarify, my issue is totally unrelated to anything OOC, me and the guy who plays the paladin get along fine, and everybody on the table is on the same page.

Good.

I still think you should aim for the nomination for Best Necromancer in a Supporting Role.

We all know that the Academy is biased towards Gene Hackmaster, but this could be your year.

Sith_Happens
2015-07-20, 11:44 PM
Man, I can't believe this thread is still getting posts, and that half of them are just arguing over what I mean't. I understand people telling me that this is an OOC problem, but me and the person playing the paladin have already talked it over. Believe it or not, he offered to have his guy act more friendly towards the undead so as to avoid any issues that might arise, but everybody in the group (including the GM) decided that it having a minor conflict would present better roleplaying possibilities than just sweeping it under the rug. Once again, I have to thank the people who gave me some good dialogue options for when the paladin eventually does find out. Also, to clarify, my issue is totally unrelated to anything OOC, me and the guy who plays the paladin get along fine, and everybody on the table is on the same page.

The reason we keep talking about it is because this is exactly what we've been waiting to hear the whole time.:smallwink::smalltongue::smallsmile:

*cough*

Anyways... Uh... Actually I think all of my ideas have already been covered by other people. Though what I don't remember whether had been noted or not is that pretty much any plan that involves disguising your minions will be less and less feasible the more minions you have, which is all the more reason to focus on quality over quantity.

goto124
2015-07-21, 12:19 AM
Finally, OP said something we wanted to hear!

Quality over quantity works for a different reason:

Necromancer: This is Bob. Look at how well I treat him. I love him so much.
Necromancer : *hugs the zombie in a tuxedo*
Paladin: ... fine, I'll let you off for this one.

Sith_Happens
2015-07-21, 12:24 AM
Necromancer : *hugs the zombie in a tuxedo*

...And now I'm imagining Zombie Tuxedo Mask.

*takes notes*

Brookshw
2015-07-21, 07:52 AM
We all know that the Academy is biased towards Gene Hackmaster, but this could be your year.

I can already hear the acceptance speech, "I'd like to thank the Academy of Rotting Arts and all the mindless corpses that helped get me here. You know who you are preproduction middle management".:smallbiggrin:

imcool2
2015-07-22, 01:39 AM
{ scrubbed }

Marlowe
2015-07-22, 02:08 AM
...I didn't get trolled...:smallfrown: