Melee Damage Build?

[Draconium]

Hey all. I've been playing 3.5 for a while now, buit I'm having a really hard time finding a class I can really get into. I've dabbled a bit in a ton of stuff, though, and I've come up with two things like like in a character, combat-wise.

- Melee. I prefer being up in the middle of the battle as opposed to sneaking around the sides, or standing back casting spells.

- Damage. I am quite fond of being able to dish out at ton of damage in a short amount of time, whether to hordes of mooks or a single, big bad target.

So, my question to the Playground is this. What build would you recommend for a damage-based melee/martial class? I'd prefer not to have a whole bunch of multiclassing or prestiging, but I'm not opposed to it in moderation.

[frogglesmash]

The tome of battle classes are always a solid choice for melee characters.

[LokeyITP]

So are spellcasters already, just change your spell line-up :)

[Andreaz]

Hey all. I've been playing 3.5 for a while now, buit I'm having a really hard time finding a class I can really get into. I've dabbled a bit in a ton of stuff, though, and I've come up with two things like like in a character, combat-wise.

- Melee. I prefer being up in the middle of the battle as opposed to sneaking around the sides, or standing back casting spells.

- Damage. I am quite fond of being able to dish out at ton of damage in a short amount of time, whether to hordes of mooks or a single, big bad target.

So, my question to the Playground is this. What build would you recommend for a damage-based melee/martial class? I'd prefer not to have a whole bunch of multiclassing or prestiging, but I'm not opposed to it in moderation.

Uberchargers are typically fighters with a dip in barbarian(lion totem) for Pounce. They need
1) A 2h weapon
2) Power Attack
3) Leap Attack, and some ranks in jump
4) Improved Sunder, Improved Bull Rush
5) Shock Trooper and Combat Brute
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With this alone you have a character, let's say with 16 starter strength and level 9. A +4 str item as well for str 22.
This gives you a weapon with some dice+9 damage.

He charges. Via shock trooper, he takes his entire bab as a penalty to power attack...but it goes to armor. -9 AC, +18 damage on all attacks that round. +2 from charge as well.
He jumps during the charge. Leap Attack turns that +18 damage into +27
At the end of the charge you made 2 attacks at their normal bonus +2, for dice+38 damage at the cost of 9 ac.
Next round you charge a second foe.The very same dynamics, but combat brute gives you another x3 pa multiplier, so your attack now has +45 instead of +27, totalling two attacks at dice+56 damage.

If you are Large, have Powerful build or a similar toy (even a friendly wizard can do it), you can also get Knockback and on every PA attack also deal a free action bullrush bonified by the PA penalty. If you do this, you can for example charge the same enemy over and over, with further bonuses on attack and damage (+1 each per square pushed)
This is a very simple build, and its execution is little more than "I charge".
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I much prefer the Bulldozer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=0ih1bejbjpgje0tv00e6e246t6&topic=1532.0), but it has more multiclassing. It's combat dynamic is charging everyone, like the ubercharger, but attacking with the shield. Its build allows its charges to force a very hard fortitude save to avoid Daze, pushes your targets back real far, and if they hit a wall or similar obstacle your damage also skyrockets(possibly tripping them as well).
The bulldozer at its later levels is easily doing 400 damage per target per round, more if they hit walls, all the while tripping and dazing them, and working better against groups, not usually something a fighter handles well.

[Draconium]

The tome of battle classes are always a solid choice for melee characters.

I've actually been looking at them recently, and Warblade looks fun. Especially since it gives me an excuse to make my martial character intelligent. :smalltongue:


So are spellcasters already, just change your spell line-up :)

While I do like spellcasters in the right situation, I'm looking for something a bit less... squishy.


*snip*

Well, that's a pretty cool build... I may have to try that out sometime.

[rrwoods]

Here's a build I'm currently playing and I'm pretty satisfied with. Right now we're only level 2, but I've been working on the build for a while.

Whisper Gnome Swordsage 20
32 point buy + racial modifiers: Str 10 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10
Skills: Max concentration, hide, move silently, listen, and spot*. This leaves a point or so per level to play with.
Feats, in order: Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse, Adaptive Style, Darkstalker, Sudden Recovery, Steady Concentration, Gloom Razor
Class Feature decisions: weapon focus - shadow hand; insightful strikes - diamond mind, then stone dragon; defensive stances - shadow hand, then diamond mind

Maneuvers and Stances:
1st - shadow blade technique, moment of perfect mind, sapphire nightmare blade, distracting ember, wolf fang strike, sudden leap, island of blades
2nd - counter charge, child of shadow
3rd - shadow jaunt
4th - emerald razor, cloak of deception; lose sudden leap
5th - mind over body, assassin's stance
6th - mountain hammer, shadow garrote; lose counter charge
7th - bonecrusher
8th - bonesplitting strike, ruby nightmare blade; lose distracting ember
9th - shadow stride, hearing the air
10th - bounding assault, elder mountain hammer; lose shadow jaunt
11th - shadow noose
12th - greater insightful strike, stalker in the night; lose shadow garrote
13th - shadow blink
14th - bloodletting strike, quicksilver motion; lose wolf fang strike (debatable)
15th - diamond defense
16th - ancient mountain hammer, one with shadow; lose bonesplitting strike
17th - time stands still (!!!!!!!!!)
18th - five-shadow creeping-ice enervation strike, mountain tombstone strike; lose bounding assault
19th - diamond nightmare blade
20th - inferno blade, colossus strike, stance of alacrity; lose bloodletting strike

Just having leveled to 3, I'm looking at an attack of +9 (+2 base, +4 dex, +1 masterwork, +1 size, +1 discipline focus) with pretty good damage rolls. This character plays the scout role as well, with good skill points giving me great stealth- and perception-related checks. The racial bonuses to Dex and Con work extremely well for a character who keys Dex to attack rolls and damage rolls, and as a plus I'm hard to see, hear, or hit as well. Next level I'll be getting Wis to damage on sapphire nightmare blade and emerald razor, and every maneuver already has excellent damage output as it is. In my experience this is a very competent melee build. Lots of options, more than enough damage to get the job done, and the "sneaky bastard" personality is a hoot to play.

* My DM is giving me Spot as a class skill; Swordsages don't normally get this. I suspect this would hinder this character's ability to scout; however you asked for a melee-focused build and this character is extremely good at Making Things Dead. If you really wanted you could dip a class that gets spot, probably around level 5 or 6, but I'd think that instead you'd want to try to get another character to play that role and refocus a bit. Pretty much this just means reallocating skill points (though to where I don't know; what does a pure melee character do with their skill points?) and changing Darkstalker to something more melee focused.

You might dump Str a bit more than I did here, especially if you're not starting at 1. I wanted my character to be able to do his job starting at level 1, so it was very important to me that the +4 Dex to damage be unhindered by a negative Str modifier. If you don't have this priority feel free to move some points around... though I'm not sure where you'd put them, really.

Enjoy, and feel free to tear this apart :-) I'll say this though: This build is hella fun!

[Red Rubber Band]

I'm currently playing a Duskblade. Single target damage is something they're inherently good at, and you don't need to put much thought into it.

Knowledge Devotion and Arcane Strike are two very good feats to go with them.

[Draconium]

*snip*

Swordsages do look pretty fun, but I'm not sure about them... They seem like they'd need to move around a lot in order to avoid any major hits that could take them out.


I'm currently playing a Duskblade. Single target damage is something they're inherently good at, and you don't need to put much thought into it.

Knowledge Devotion and Arcane Strike are two very good feats to go with them.

Eh, I've played a Duskblade before, and I'm not much of a fan, to be honest. It might just have been that specific character, though...

[OldTrees1]

Race: Dragonborn Goliath
Classes: Rogue 1 (Martial) / Barbarian 2 (Goliath Barbarian, Spirit Lion Totem, Wolf Totem) / Fighter 2 (Dungeoncrasher) / Rogue +1 (Martial) / Warhulk 2 / Warblade 1 / Warhulk +2

Feats of note: Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Knock-down(standing foes hit twice), Knockback
Class features of note:
Mighty Swing - Melee attacks(including AoOs) hit 3 squares each
Dungeoncrasher - Hitting people into objects hurts them

You are the Hulk. You are smart and charismatic outside of combat, but once inside combat you can let loose. Your general style is running right into the middle of things and then wailing on everyone multiple times each per turn. Then you wail on everyone several more times during their turns.

[Draconium]

Race: Dragonborn Goliath
Classes: Rogue 1 (Martial) / Barbarian 2 (Goliath Barbarian, Spirit Lion Totem, Wolf Totem) / Fighter 2 (Dungeoncrasher) / Rogue +1 (Martial) / Warhulk 2 / Warblade 1 / Warhulk +2

Feats of note: Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Knock-down, Knockback
Class features of note:
Mighty Swing - Melee attacks(including AoOs) hit 3 squares each
Dungeoncrasher - Hitting people into objects hurts them

You are the Hulk. You are smart and charismatic outside of combat, but once inside combat you can let loose. Your general style is running right into the middle of things and then wailing on everyone multiple times each per turn. Then you wail on everyone several more times during their turns.

... No thanks. To many classes for me there. I really don't think I'd be able to handle any more than three classes/PrC.

[OldTrees1]

... No thanks. To many classes for me there. I really don't think I'd be able to handle any more than three classes/PrC.

Goliath Barbarian 2 (Goliath, Spirit Lion Totem)/ Fighter 4 (Dungeoncrasher)/ Warhulk 10 / Fighter +4 (Dungeoncrasher)
or
Goliath Barbarian 2 (Goliath, Spirit Lion Totem)/ Rogue 5 (Martial)/ Warhulk 10 / Rogue +3 (Martial)

Same deal as the more complicated version.

You can even do a 2 class version (Barbarian 6 / Warhulk) but that strains the feats a bit much.

[rrwoods]

Swordsages do look pretty fun, but I'm not sure about them... They seem like they'd need to move around a lot in order to avoid any major hits that could take them out...
Not in my experience. Having just leveled to 3, my AC is 22 (+4 Dex, +3 Wis, +1 size, +4 armor). This assumes you have enough cash for suitable armor (I have a mithril shirt). Your AC can be 23 if you want -- swordsages aren't proficient with shields, but with the gnome tortoise blade familiarity in complete warrior you can tack on another +1 to AC. Further, the child of shadow stance gives you concealment if you move at least 10 ft.

At level 1 it's a slightly different story, but your AC is still pretty respectable. You don't have the +3 Wis, but you might shell out some of your starting gold for half-decent armor. 16 or 17 AC should be enough to cover you.

At later levels, I'm not sure yet -- but you should have a ton of maneuverability anyhow, with things like quicksilver motion and shadow blink getting you out of trouble. An item I recommend highly is the chronocharm of the grand master -- for 500 gp you get +5 dodge to AC vs 1 ranged attack per day. It's not much, but it's great when you're not yet in their face to retaliate.

Also this build has the elegance of being single-classed ;-)

[frogglesmash]

Goliath Barbarian 2 (Goliath, Spirit Lion Totem)/ Fighter 4 (Dungeoncrasher)/ Warhulk 10 / Fighter +4 (Dungeoncrasher)
or
Goliath Barbarian 2 (Goliath, Spirit Lion Totem)/ Rogue 5 (Martial)/ Warhulk 10 / Rogue +3 (Martial)

Same deal as the more complicated version.

You can even do a 2 class version (Barbarian 6 / Warhulk) but that strains the feats a bit much.

The Goliath's Powerful Build ability doesn't qualify him for Warhulk, so how are you meeting the "large size" requirement?

[Draconium]

The Goliath's Powerful Build ability doesn't qualify him for Warhulk, so how are you meeting the "large size" requirement?

Having just checked out the PrC myself, I noticed this too. Goliath's powerful build mentions nothing about qualifying as large size for class requierments, as far as I know.

[frogglesmash]

Having just checked out the PrC myself, I noticed this too. Goliath's powerful build mentions nothing about qualifying as large size for class requierments, as far as I know.

If you can find some way of being large Warhulk is still a very good option though.

[Draconium]

If you can find some way of being large Warhulk is still a very good option though.

Well, Warhulk doesn't look like it has any BAB progression, though... I'm assuming this is a mistake?

[erok0809]

No, it's purposeful. It trades the BAB progression for a strength boost at either every level or every other level, I don't remember which at the moment.

[Draconium]

No, it's purposeful. It trades the BAB progression for a strength boost at either every level or every other level, I don't remember which at the moment.

It was every level, and I see... It makes sense, since +2 Strength every level would equate to a full BAB progression. Thanks for clearing that up!

[frogglesmash]

It was every level, and I see... It makes sense, since +2 Strength every level would equate to a full BAB progression. Thanks for clearing that up!

The difference being that increased strength doesn't grant iterative attacks, but instead a boost to damage.

[Draconium]

The difference being that increased strength doesn't grant iterative attacks, but instead a boost to damage.

It's perhaps not as good for a single-target fighter build, as you'll only attack twice, albeit with more damage when you hit. However, for wading through hordes of mooks, it's amazing, since you'll be able to attack every enemy you threaten with each attack, assuming you take all 10 levels. That's what I'm getting from it.

[OldTrees1]

The Goliath's Powerful Build ability doesn't qualify him for Warhulk, so how are you meeting the "large size" requirement?


Well, Warhulk doesn't look like it has any BAB progression, though... I'm assuming this is a mistake?


The difference being that increased strength doesn't grant iterative attacks, but instead a boost to damage.


It's perhaps not as good for a single-target fighter build, as you'll only attack twice, albeit with more damage when you hit. However, for wading through hordes of mooks, it's amazing, since you'll be able to attack every enemy you threaten with each attack, assuming you take all 10 levels. That's what I'm getting from it.

Long back and forth while I slept.

1) Goliath Barbarians have a racial form of Rage called Mountain Rage that makes them larger during Rage. This temporarily qualifies them for Warhulk. Some DMs (like myself) rule this turns No Time to Think on an off as a result.

2) BAB does 2 things. It increases your attack bonus and it gives you additional attacks. The +2 Str gives an identical boost to attack bonus so it boils down to the extra attacks vs Warhulk features. The build stubs I provided all reach BAB +6 before entering Warhulk, so you are trading 1 extra attack at a -10 penalty for every attack hitting 3 squares and boosts to damage per attack from the Strength increase. So you get more hits with Warhulk even if you delay your -10 penalty iterative attack.

3) If facing down a single target then you get 2* attacks rather than 3(you delayed your -10 penalty attack). However if your target is unsupported then you will have an easy times as your party has a tremendous action economy advantage. There is also the option to grab the Three Mountain feat(save vs nauseate) so you can lock down small numbers of enemies(including the single target situation).

*A standing foe can be Knock-down'd which triggers a Trip attack. This has an interesting interaction with Mighty Swing in the cases of 2+ foes. It gets even more interesting if that Trip triggers Improved Trip(the latest version of Knock-down does but an earlier version did not).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Play a Druid. In the early levels, use a (nonproficient) wooden tower shield and cast and concentrate on Enrage Animal, and have your animal companion do the fighting. At 3rd get Natural Bond, and at 4th get a new Fleshraker dinosaur companion and you'll get to count your full Druid level toward its benefits. At 5th level you can wild shape into a Fleshraker dinosaur yourself. If you want it to get really silly, cast Venomfire on yourself and your companion so each of you deals an additional 1d6 per caster level acid damage on three of your melee attacks.

[Andreaz]

Well, that's a pretty cool build... I may have to try that out sometime.It's very simple, and "Hoods" are the characters that are built this wya to the extreme. I didn't use a tenth of what I've seen an ubercharger use. They can easily go into 1000+ damage per round, which obviously breaks everything.

They're overly simple in my opinion, I much prefer martial initiators, gishes and their ilk.
For example
Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) 20. Medium bab, 8 bonus feats, and powers tailored to picking a big stick and shoving it up enemies' entrails. At level 1 you already have a power to become Large (one of the biggest power increases for a melee character), and later you can use it as a swift action, removing entirely the need to lose a combat round buffing. Still from level 1 there is a shield power, a bunch of toys to run faster, gain natural attacks, summon weapons, soak damage... and later on you get toys to deal energy damage, gain move actions as swift actions (Ah, Hustle. Why so awesome...?), and you can imagine where this goes. Ultimately you can turn yourself into an unstoppable abomination.
There are a couple tricks you can make with feats that make this character even more efficient in the "buffing without stopping to beat people into smoothies like a V8 blender".
Similarly, a Cleric can be a veritable beatstick, especially if you go Ordained Champion.

Warblades and Crusaders, however, make the bulk of the melee awesome in my book. Give them a look. Even baseline they're very powerful without breaking the game.

[Optimator]

The Barbarian PrCs Champion of Gwynharwyf and Runescarred Berserker are extremely good. Frenzied Berserker is the king of damage but has some... interesting quirks making it nearly unplayable.

Warbade, Cruader, and Swordsage are all extremely fun and potent. A Swordsage dip on a melee-blender Rogue with TWF and Craven is extremely damaging, though it takes some set-up to get the sneak attacks off reliably. It gets easier as levels rise, as you can imagine.

A self-buffing Wizard gish is pretty unstoppable but it takes a lot of build finagling and wise spell selection. Draconic Polymorph into a War Troll or Sand Giant (or that other giant with a huge strength score. Forgot the name) plus Bite of the Werebear can make a serviceable melee combatant all on their own. Throw in some Wraithstrike, Greater Heroism, Greater Blink, Greater Mirror Image, Ironguard... the list goes on.

Clerics and Druids are legendary in their self-buffing skillz. 'Nuff said.

A melee Ranger/Scout with Swift Hunter can be a quite serviceable melee character. You get skills, too.

Combining Charging Smite Paladin with the Rhino's Rush spell, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper makes for a pretty heinous holy cruise missile.

Duskblades are simple and pump out some very strong damage. Arcane Barbarians, they are.

Dungeoncrasher Fighters do great damage as well.

Oh yeah: Psychic Warriors! Very fun.

Anyway, if you haven't played a straight Warblade before I highly suggest it. On of my favorite classes ever.

[Draconium]

Anyway, if you haven't played a straight Warblade before I highly suggest it. On of my favorite classes ever.

I'll admit, out of all the suggestions I've seen, straight Warblade is really catching my eye the most. So, if I were to play one, what would you guys recommend for a build, feat- and maneuver-wise?

[fishyfishyfishy]

I'll admit, out of all the suggestions I've seen, straight Warblade is really catching my eye the most. So, if I were to play one, what would you guys recommend for a build, feat- and maneuver-wise?

I personally really like the Eternal Blade prestige class. So I favor the simple Warblade 10 / Eternal Blade 10 with the feats Education, Knowledge Devotion, Weapon Focus, Blade Meditation, and Unnerving Calm. With the Weapon Aptitude ability you can change the Weapon Focus feat to whatever you are currently using. You can go for Exotic Weapon Proficiency and have the potential to be proficient with just about any weapon you get your hands on.

[Red Fel]

I think you should start with Warblade as your staple, in any event. What you build around that is up to you. For example, a Warblade with a quick dip into Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian gets you Pounce and Whirling Frenzy, which makes you a fairly efficient blender. A Warblade with a few levels of Totemist can get you some solid natural weapons; when coupled with the Punishing Stance stance and the Stormguard Warrior feat, that means you can alternate rounds between dealing no damage (to charge up Stormguard Warrior) and doing obscene damage, generally enough to bury one or more opponents. And, of course, a Warblade with Eternal Blade's capstone can combo of Time Stands Still with Island in Time for some truly disturbing results.

It takes minimal effort to convert a Warblade into a flesh-pulping engine, is what I'm saying.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For a non-caster melee build, I prefer Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1 with the Zhentarim Soldier (archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) sub levels, Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) class features, and trade Ride for Tumble as a class skill (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Take Imperious Command (DotU) and the Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS), and wear armor with the Fearsome property (DotU, more recent than MIC and better). You get plenty of feats, plenty of maneuvers, amazing intimidate tricks, and at 20th level you can use your Fighter 10 bonus feat to get Weapon Supremacy (PH2).

Preferably make that a Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), and say you visited the Otyugh Hole in CS to get Menacing Demeanor (+4 intimidate). Take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) if possible and invest all of your skill points into it to get the highest possible bonus toward intimidate. You can demoralize someone as a swift action with Zhentarim Fighter 9, and you'll make them cower for a round and then be shaken on the following round with Imperious Command. Once per encounter your intimidate check affects all opponents within 10 ft. thanks to Never Outnumbered, making them all all cower for a round and then be shaken the next round. With Fearsome armor you can intimidate again as a move action and still use a standard-action maneuver in the same round.

[Draconium]

First off, let me take a moment to thank everyone for replying with their advice - I honestly didn't expect so much of it. :smalltongue: I took a look at the Eternal Blade, and while it does have some cool abilities, I'm not overly fond of the flavor, so it probably won't be my first choice. I'm not really sure about the Fighter/Warblade/Fighter build either. Taking a dip into Lion Totem for Pounce and Whirling Frenzy, though, does intrigue me. May I ask for more information on when the best time to take that dip would be?

[OldTrees1]

First off, let me take a moment to thank everyone for replying with their advice - I honestly didn't expect so much of it. :smalltongue: I took a look at the Eternal Blade, and while it does have some cool abilities, I'm not overly fond of the flavor, so it probably won't be my first choice. I'm not really sure about the Fighter/Warblade/Fighter build either. Taking a dip into Lion Totem for Pounce and Whirling Frenzy, though, does intrigue me. May I ask for more information on when the best time to take that dip would be?

Spirit Lion Totem is best taken right as, right before, or right after you gain a full attack. When combined with Whirling Frenzy (rather than one of the other rage options) that becomes level 1. This is especially true when multiclassing with Warblade since they only increase in value the later you take them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're going to dip Barbarian, get two levels and use Wolf-Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) to get Improved Trip for free, and pick up Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown).

When making a primary Warblade, if you're going to take dips then you want to dip two non-Warblade levels before taking Warblade 4 so you can pick a 3rd level stance when you get that level. Depending on what class skills you want at 1st level, you could just start out Barbarian 2 into Warblade to be able to get Knock-Down at 3rd. If you get Barbarian 2 at 3rd level or later, you won't be able to take Knock-Down until 6th+, since you have to pick the feat you gained at a given level before you get your class features for that level (PHB p59).

[OldTrees1]

If you're going to dip Barbarian, get two levels and use Wolf-Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) to get Improved Trip for free, and pick up Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown).

When making a primary Warblade, if you're going to take dips then you want to dip two non-Warblade levels before taking Warblade 4 so you can pick a 3rd level stance when you get that level. Depending on what class skills you want at 1st level, you could just start out Barbarian 2 into Warblade to be able to get Knock-Down at 3rd. If you get Barbarian 2 at 3rd level or later, you won't be able to take Knock-Down until 6th+, since you have to pick the feat you gained at a given level before you get your class features for that level (PHB p59).

PHB 87 implies you can take a feat as long as you qualify for it that level

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the
indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus,
or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A
character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she
gains the prerequisite. For example, at 3rd level, Krusk, the halforc
barbarian, could spend 1 skill point on the Ride skill
(gaining his first rank in Ride) and select the Mounted Combat
feat at the same time.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

PHB 87 implies you can take a feat as long as you qualify for it that level

You gain skill ranks before feats, so in that example you would qualify for that feat at the time you select it.

If you take Wolf-Totem Barbarian 2 at your 3rd character level, you would have to select your 3rd level feat before you gain Improved Trip as a bonus feat from Barbarian.

Some class features are static, for example as soon as you hit Wizard 3 you have a caster level of 3rd even before gaining class features, because it's based on your class level, so you can take Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd level. But if that same character wants to take Signature Spell at level 15, and plans to qualify for it by taking Spell Mastery as his Wizard 15 bonus feat, then he won't be able to do it because he won't have Spell Mastery until after he would need to qualify for and select Signature Spell.

[Draconium]

Spirit Lion Totem is best taken right as, right before, or right after you gain a full attack. When combined with Whirling Frenzy (rather than one of the other rage options) that becomes level 1. This is especially true when multiclassing with Warblade since they only increase in value the later you take them.

So, if I understand correctly, the recommendation is to take a single level dip into Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, with the Whirling Frenzy rage variant, either as your first level, or at least at a very early level. Is that correct?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So, if I understand correctly, the recommendation is to take a single level dip into Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, with the Whirling Frenzy rage variant, either as your first level, or at least at a very early level. Is that correct?

No, take a two level dip in Barbarian, taking the Lion Spirit alternate class feature and the Whirling Frenzy alternate class feature at its first level, and the Wolf Totem variant to gain Improved Trip instead of Uncanny Dodge at its second level.

[Draconium]

No, take a two level dip in Barbarian, taking the Lion Spirit alternate class feature and the Whirling Frenzy alternate class feature at its first level, and the Wolf Totem variant to gain Improved Trip instead of Uncanny Dodge at its second level.

I'm not really looking to build a tripper, though... I suppose Improved Trip could be useful, but to be honest, I really wouldn't use it much.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm not really looking to build a tripper, though... I suppose Improved Trip could be useful, but to be honest, I really wouldn't use it much.

Please read Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown). It's not a question of using trip attacks, it's about getting to do it for free, and then Improve Trip gives you another attack for free.

[Draconium]

Please read Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown). It's not a question of using trip attacks, it's about getting to do it for free, and then Improve Trip gives you another attack for free.

Huh. I wasn't familiar with that feat. Maybe I should get it?

EDIT: But would Lion Spirit and Wolf Totem stack? It doesn't seem clear about that when I read up on them...

[OldTrees1]

So, if I understand correctly, the recommendation is to take a single level dip into Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, with the Whirling Frenzy rage variant, either as your first level, or at least at a very early level. Is that correct?


Huh. I wasn't familiar with that feat. Maybe I should get it?

EDIT: But would Lion Spirit and Wolf Totem stack? It doesn't seem clear about that when I read up on them...

Spirit Lion Totem, Wolf Totem, and a Rage (Whirling Frenzy and Mountain Rage being the best) all stack because they trade away different things with no overlap.
When taking Whirling Frenzy, you should take Barbarian as soon as possible since you already have a decent full attack option via WF. If you go for Mountain Rage(Goliath Barbarian) then you can wait up until BAB +6(but you can still take it earlier).

Knock-down is a very nice feat. Every one of your attacks becomes Attack, Trip, Attack. Remember Warhulk's attacks that hit multiple squares? :smallbiggrin:

[Draconium]

Okay, so I have a rough outline for this character now... Going for a sort of Ubercharger build.

Build - Human Lion Spirit/Wolf Totem/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Warblade X, with X being the total level he'll reach -2. Obviously. :smalltongue:

Tentative stats - 16 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 12 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha, as per 32-point buy. If stats are determined a different way, then Str>Con>Dex>Int>Wis>Cha. (Wis and Cha might switch, for fluff reasons.)

Feat Build -

1a. Power Attack
1b. Improved Bull Rush

Improved Trip from Wolf Totem.

3. Knock-Down

6. Leap Attack or Shock Trooper, with the other one being the 9th-level feat.

7. (Bonus from Warblade) Ironheart Aura

9. See above

11. (Bonus from Warblade)Combat Reflexes

12. Stormguard Warrior

15a. Robilar's Gambit

15b. (Bonus from Warbalde) Improved Initiative (?)

Not sure about the rest of my feats yet, so I'm open for suggestions. Also, while I do want all of the above feats, I don't have much of a problem moving them around as needed.

So, how does it look so far?

[Username.]

Important note on Psychic Warrior, mentioned above: it gets Vigor, Share Pain, Claws of the Beast, and Hustle (and Psionic Lion's Charge).

The latter two powers mean you don't need to dip Barbarian to full attack on a charge. Just take Hustle and get an extra move action. Each. Turn.

Claws of the Beast is some of the best, simplest scaling damage in the game.

And Vigor. . .

Vigor gives you the most HP you can get without having to dig into either game-breakers or headache-inducing optimization, and may even give you more than those. Vigor gives you temporary HP based on your manifester level. Get a psicrystal and you can share spells with it, giving it Vigor as well. Share Pain means, roughly, that your damage is split between you and your psicrystal. . . and the latter has Hardness, significantly reducing damage.

This combination is probably the most noob-friendly melee one can build. You use Hustle to close on your foe, you attack with claws, you use Vigor when your HP goes down, repeat until traumatized by the horrors of war. Your biggest problem is finding feats that force your opponent to either face you or fail to run away so that you can properly tank.

It can be combined with martial adepts, but that takes some thinking; you don't want to lose too many manifester levels, if any. Practiced Manifester would be a must.

And, um, oh -- remember those claws? When you manifest them, the psicrystal, if close enough, gets them, too. So you'd consider your damage problems. . . solved at the point you take Psicrystal Affinity. Which is likely at level 1.

[Draconium]

Well, thanks for the PsiWar advice, but it's really not something I feel like playing at the time. I might try it out at a later date, though.

[Andreaz]

Well, thanks for the PsiWar advice, but it's really not something I feel like playing at the time. I might try it out at a later date, though.

I also suggest you look at pathfinder. It's pretty much the continuation of 3.5, and essentially the same game, but with better support, better class design and awesome third party enterprises (looking at you, Dreamscarred <3)

[Draconium]

I also suggest you look at pathfinder. It's pretty much the continuation of 3.5, and essentially the same game, but with better support, better class design and awesome third party enterprises (looking at you, Dreamscarred <3)

While I have considered trying PF out, that's not really the point of this thread... I'm asking for help with a 3.5 build, as that's what's applicable to my situation at the moment.

[Username.]

Well, thanks for the PsiWar advice, but it's really not something I feel like playing at the time. I might try it out at a later date, though.

The reason I pointed it out is because there isn't much point, from a simplicity standpoint, to running with an Ubercharger build. Your turns are simple: charge it, and if you can't charge it, probably lose. Bizarrely enough, that makes life complex, since the dreaded no-fighter-out-of-combat-utility problem rears its ugly head.

Weirdly enough, an Ubercharger is too effective. You are "done" with the Ubercharger build at around level 10. At that point you are hitting for thousands of points of damage and additional damage is literally worthless. (It's been a long time since I statted such cheese, but off the top of my head, that's some combination of Battlejump, Headlong Rush, Valorous Weapon, Spirited Charge, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, etc.) Psychic Warrior and Fighter actually make this a bit easier because all you really need is feats -- you should actually have the ubercharger online at about level 6, though it won't be doing pointlessly stupid damage for a few more levels yet.

The fact that you can one-shot anything corporeal is great. . . and a problem if your DM thinks it's cheesy or if your enemies decide to stop you. That's because you're pretty easy to stop, which is why alternative power systems like psionics are a good resource in case you're hit with something that doesn't stand there and take it, or anything that flies, etc.

That said, if the party isn't high-op and you don't need to OHKO everything to stay relevant, a low-op straight Warblade does make a lot of sense. It is not an ubercharger, though: it might take more than one round for a charging (not-ubercharger) Warblade to kill something. That's not true of an ubercharger, no matter the class makeup.

[marphod]

If it didn't have a feat tax that sucked so badly, I'd suggest getting Karmic Strike for the funny. (You hit me? Alright. I hit you for Robilar's. and I hit you for Karmic Strike. )

Martial Stance at 15 or 18 lets you get another high-level Stance.

Martial Study if there are any manuevers you want from other schools.

Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) gets you some small bonuses for knowledge skills, but doesn't suck. Nymph's Kiss (BoED) if you are going to need skill points.

Exotic weapon Prof, because it combines nicely with Weapon Aptitude.

Mageslayer and Pierce Magical concealment.