Stats for World's Largest Dungeon

[Kesnit]

After talking to some of my players about the campaign I'm running, we think a reboot is in order. I've dug out my 3E version of World's Largest Dungeon and started reading up on the first few areas.

Any WotC Books. (3rd party will be considered, but not automatically approved)
Starting at either ECL 3 or 4 (still debating this)
Starting wealth will be WBL for starting level, plus half-way to the next level. (So 4050 for ECL 3 or 7200 for ECL 4)

What I am still debating is what stats to give at the start. I'd like to avoid point buy, just to keep players from throwing everything into one stat and ignoring everything else. On the other hand, I don't want to shaft players with poor stats, which means keeping all stats relatively close so as to avoid an excessive point-buy equivalent.

I'm leaning towards 17, 15, 14, 12, 11, 10, which is equal to a 36 PB, allows a good stat to start, and doesn't give a negative modifier (without racial modifiers).

Does that sound reasonable?

[Endarire]

Certain classes and concepts demand or just work better with a single high stat, whereas others benefit much more from a spread. Why not just use a 36 point buy? It's just more versatile than the spread you proposed.

The difference between a 6 and a 20 in a stat is a modifier of 7, or a 35% chance (approximately 1/3) on a d20 roll. The difference between an 8 and an 18 in a stat is a modifier of 5, or a 25% chance on a d20 roll.

You mentioned a dislike for people investing heavily in one thing. Why? A 36 point buy allows someone to max two stats (base 18), though they're probably better off not doing so. I foresee STR-based characters maxing STR and double-handing weapons, while casters max their casting stat because it's that important. Both will probably put the rest of their points into DEX and CON, with perhaps a smattering in other stats to taste.

[OldTrees1]

I'm leaning towards 17, 15, 14, 12, 11, 10, which is equal to a 36 PB, allows a good stat to start, and doesn't give a negative modifier (without racial modifiers).

Does that sound reasonable?

1) There is a lot of waste in that array.
2) Point buy already discourages overinvestment*(17-18 for 36pt buy) except for casters.

If you are set on using an array, give these 3 options:
16/16/14/12/12/10 costs 36 points
16/16/14/14/10/10 costs 36 points
16/16/14/14/12/08 costs 36 points

*A +5% chance on 1 area is rarely worth a -15% on other relevant areas and it requires a higher point buy than 36 or requires being a caster to have enough irrelevant areas for the cost to not hurt.

[Xervous]

In my view giving players odd numbered stats and calling it "a 36 point buy" may very well come across as a slap to the face. Of those three stats that end up with odd numbers they aren't likely to ever improve two of them so for all purposes they just lose that extra point.

[Red Rubber Band]

After talking to some of my players about the campaign I'm running, we think a reboot is in order. I've dug out my 3E version of World's Largest Dungeon and started reading up on the first few areas.

Any WotC Books. (3rd party will be considered, but not automatically approved)
Starting at either ECL 3 or 4 (still debating this)
Starting wealth will be WBL for starting level, plus half-way to the next level. (So 4050 for ECL 3 or 7200 for ECL 4)

What I am still debating is what stats to give at the start. I'd like to avoid point buy, just to keep players from throwing everything into one stat and ignoring everything else. On the other hand, I don't want to shaft players with poor stats, which means keeping all stats relatively close so as to avoid an excessive point-buy equivalent.

I'm leaning towards 17, 15, 14, 12, 11, 10, which is equal to a 36 PB, allows a good stat to start, and doesn't give a negative modifier (without racial modifiers).

Does that sound reasonable?

You could do 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 prior to racials, that's 36 point buy. Or just ask that the players do not start with a natural 19/20 in any stat. I am curious as to why you're wanting this, though. I know you said why, but I'm after more of an explanation please :smallsmile:

Another way to encourage people to have more of a spread is to give them a point buy total at each level, instead of an attribute point. For example, someone starts with an 18 in a stat. At level 4 you give the players another 4 points to add to their point buy score. This is enough for someone to elevate their 18 to a 19. Or they could raise two, three, or possibly even four of their lower stats. At level 8 you give them 5 points, enough to make that 19 a 20.
Any leftover points between levels they keep until they can next raise an attribute point.

[Mr Adventurer]

When I ran WLD I gave the default array plus 3 point buy points. That's the equivalent of 28 points but very controlled.

[bean illus]

After talking to some of my players about the campaign I'm running, we think a reboot is in order. I've dug out my 3E version of World's Largest Dungeon and started reading up on the first few areas.

Any WotC Books. (3rd party will be considered, but not automatically approved)
Starting at either ECL 3 or 4 (still debating this)
Starting wealth will be WBL for starting level, plus half-way to the next level. (So 4050 for ECL 3 or 7200 for ECL 4)

Why bother adding this info? Are you looking for players? Pick me. lol

As for the stats question... I say point buy and let it be (same reasons as stated above). If you feel it's important, just stipulate "no natural 18+s".

[SkipSandwich]

...Another way to encourage people to have more of a spread is to give them a point buy total at each level, instead of an attribute point. For example, someone starts with an 18 in a stat. At level 4 you give the players another 4 points to add to their point buy score. This is enough for someone to elevate their 18 to a 19. Or they could raise two, three, or possibly even four of their lower stats. At level 8 you give them 5 points, enough to make that 19 a 20.
Any leftover points between levels they keep until they can next raise an attribute point.

I've played with this before where we basically did a fusion of BESM (d20 Anime, uses a point-buy attribute system like Mutants and Masterminds) and normal DnD where we all got a small amount of Character Points each level to buy stats, bonus feats or special abilities. The amount of points granted each level varied with class, Full-Casters got the least, and mundane classes (Fighter, Monk, Barbarian) got the most. There were some rules to what could be purchased, such as needing to meet the prerequisites of a feat before choosing it as a bonus feat, or that a new spell-like ability uses 1/2 HD for caster level, but you can purchase it twice to raise it to CL = HD, but it was a ton of fun.

[Kesnit]

Certain classes and concepts demand or just work better with a single high stat, whereas others benefit much more from a spread. Why not just use a 36 point buy? It's just more versatile than the spread you proposed.

I'm trying to avoid the "one incredibly high stat and ditch everything else" idea.


If you are set on using an array, give these 3 options:
16/16/14/12/12/10 costs 36 points
16/16/14/14/10/10 costs 36 points
16/16/14/14/12/08 costs 36 points

Thank you. :smallsmile:


I am curious as to why you're wanting this, though. I know you said why, but I'm after more of an explanation please :smallsmile:

WLD is brutal, and I'd rather the PCs not min-max to the point of being a hindrance.


Why bother adding this info? Are you looking for players? Pick me. lol

LOL. Because I figured someone would ask how I was running the game, since that does affect PC stats.

[Endarire]

OP: Why not just trust the players to build characters they want to build and play within the 36 point buy system? People familiar with the system tend to sort these things out on their own. Perhaps offer suggested arrays of A, B, C, D, E, F stats but permit a standard 3.5 36 point buy.

You mentioned the case of one high stat at the expense of everything else, but in default 3.5 point buy, one can't get a natural stat above 18. That's half the points. Only someone who really wants that (probably Druid or Wizard or Psion on the caster side or someone who really wants STR on the martial side.

The notion of being 'well-balanced' across all ability scores doesn't work well in general for D&D 3.5. This is a system which encourages focusing on, at most, 3 stats: DEX, CON, and primary. Adding a smattering of secondary stats helps too (like INT for Sorcerers), but those points detract from DEX and CON - not the primary stat.

Why max a primary stat? So that person can do his job! If I'm a physically strong character, I just want to max my STR so I can reliably and easily one-shot and one-round enemies. If I'm a caster, a great part of my existence depends on my ability to cast spells frequently and have them take full effect due to high DCs.

[OldTrees1]

OP: Why not just trust the players to build characters they want to build and play within the 36 point buy system? People familiar with the system tend to sort these things out on their own. Perhaps offer suggested arrays of A, B, C, D, E, F stats but permit a standard 3.5 36 point buy.

You mentioned the case of one high stat at the expense of everything else, but in default 3.5 point buy, one can't get a natural stat above 18. That's half the points. Only someone who really wants that (probably Druid or Wizard or Psion on the caster side or someone who really wants STR on the martial side.

The notion of being 'well-balanced' across all ability scores doesn't work well in general for D&D 3.5. This is a system which encourages focusing on, at most, 3 stats: DEX, CON, and primary. Adding a smattering of secondary stats helps too (like INT for Sorcerers), but those points detract from DEX and CON - not the primary stat.

Why max a primary stat? So that person can do his job! If I'm a physically strong character, I just want to max my STR so I can reliably and easily one-shot and one-round enemies. If I'm a caster, a great part of my existence depends on my ability to cast spells frequently and have them take full effect due to high DCs.

While "well balanced" doesn't work for casters, Martials tend to benefit from strategically chosen balance. Str/Dex/Int/Cha of 14 minimum (before racials) each is quite useful for a Goliath Barbarian/Fighter.

[137beth]

You could do 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 prior to racials, that's 36 point buy. Or just ask that the players do not start with a natural 19/20 in any stat. I am curious as to why you're wanting this, though. I know you said why, but I'm after more of an explanation please :smallsmile:

Another way to encourage people to have more of a spread is to give them a point buy total at each level, instead of an attribute point. For example, someone starts with an 18 in a stat. At level 4 you give the players another 4 points to add to their point buy score. This is enough for someone to elevate their 18 to a 19. Or they could raise two, three, or possibly even four of their lower stats. At level 8 you give them 5 points, enough to make that 19 a 20.
Any leftover points between levels they keep until they can next raise an attribute point.

I do something similar.
I start with two numbers: the first is the point-buy you give at level one. The second number (the 'advancement track'), is the starting ability score you expect an assumed SAD build to have for their high stat at level one.
I give just enough points for the assumed SAD build to advance their top ability score at the usual rate (once every four levels). For example, suppose the advancement track is 17. All PCs will then get enough points (three) to raise a 17 to an 18 by 4th level. I spread them out as evenly as possible (so, in this case, they will all get one additional point at 2nd level, one at 3rd, and one at 4th). The players can save points to spend at a later level if desired (and a SAD build typically will). Extending the point-buy formula beyond 18, it costs four points to go from an 18 to a 19, so four points are awarded between levels 5 and 8. Another four points are awarded between levels 9 and 12. Five points are awarded between levels 13 and 16, and another five between levels 17 and 20. Hence, our hypothetical SAD build will end up in the same place as under standard advancement, but MAD builds gain more. Increasing the advancement track to 18 will (slightly) raise the points awarded.

I am also experimenting with scrapping the standard point-buy chart and using my own. The point-buy formula in the DMG is quadratic, but I am planning to use an exponential point-buy cost formula. As a result, I expect the advancement track to make a bigger difference than starting points (unlike with the DMG's point-buy formula, where your starting array overshadows the slow gain in ability scores from leveling).

[Kesnit]

Why max a primary stat? So that person can do his job! If I'm a physically strong character, I just want to max my STR so I can reliably and easily one-shot and one-round enemies. If I'm a caster, a great part of my existence depends on my ability to cast spells frequently and have them take full effect due to high DCs.

So a WIZ with a 16 INT is incapable of casting spells? Unless (s)he starts with an 18 or 20, class falls from Tier 1 to Tier 6? (An enemy has a 5% greater chance of making a save against an INT 18 as an INT 16.)


While "well balanced" doesn't work for casters, Martials tend to benefit from strategically chosen balance. Str/Dex/Int/Cha of 14 minimum (before racials) each is quite useful for a Goliath Barbarian/Fighter.

And given the fact that none of my players optimize, this is the major focus.

The PCs ended up being a FGT 2/BARB 2, a Monk 1/Favored Soul 3 (with VoP), and a Ninja 3 (3rd party LA+1 race).

I ended up using 16/16/14/14/10/10.

[OldTrees1]

So a WIZ with a 16 INT is incapable of casting spells? Unless (s)he starts with an 18 or 20, class falls from Tier 1 to Tier 6? (An enemy has a 5% greater chance of making a save against an INT 18 as an INT 16.)

And given the fact that none of my players optimize, this is the major focus.

The PCs ended up being a FGT 2/BARB 2, a Monk 1/Favored Soul 3 (with VoP), and a Ninja 3 (3rd party LA+1 race).

I ended up using 16/16/14/14/10/10.

A Wizard needs a 15+ Int (after racial) if they want to cast without items/boosting spells(relying on such would also mean your DCs are terribly low)

So you have characters that benefit as follows:
Str/Dex/Con/Int/Cha
Con/Wis/Cha
Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha

I hope you included the other 2 arrays as options but that one would do okay.