Bard Hate

[ocato]

Alright, I've been noticing this a lot lately. It seems that these forums are painted with almost as much negative bard opinion as they are positive opinion about Wizards and CoDzilla. My question is: Why the bard hate? I know a few of the other Bard fans will step forward and back me on this, I'm just not certain why everyone thinks so poorly of this class. Bards are just like any other class. They are only as strong or as weak as the person playing them.

Discuss.

[ken-do-nim]

From the narrow view of their own combat prowess, bards don't stand up to the other 3/4 BAB classes. Clerics have divine favor/power, monks have flurry of blows, and rogues have sneak attacks. Bards do have mirror image and displacement, so defensively they are good, just not offensively. But of course, that's not supposed to be their role.

[Innis Cabal]

ummm..i will be the first to agree that the class's arnt unbalanced, but like the ranger they are only good as a fifth man. I loved 2. bards but they were silly to a point a large degree. The 3. and 3.5 bard((and the MMO Bard)) is annoying, everyone seems to play them them the same, like the gnome....

[ocato]

Well. Bard can be somewhat effective as offensive characters. I mean, it isn't hard at all to get +3 to attack and damage at L3 from your inspire courage. A bard by himself can buff himself to regularly do a pretty good amount of damage. Rogue sneak attack is circumstantial (and arguably turns into less than a properly buffed bard). Bards are powerful buffers. Bard, Buff thyself.

[Skjaldbakka]

ummm..i will be the first to agree that the class's arnt unbalanced, but like the ranger they are only good as a fifth man.


They are also awesome as a 3rd or only man. By which I mean both rangers and bards are great in solo games and in small parties, because they can fill extra rolls. There is a campaign that is somewhat legendary where I am from that consisted of 1 bard 1 druid 1 monk that was brutally effective for a 3 man party. You may have heard about it indirectly. They are the source of the 'invisible pigeons' plan.

[Innis Cabal]

bards may be good buffers but they are just not that great a class anymore. Why do people think wizard is overpowered? Becuase thats what alot of people on the boards say. The problem isnt that its a bad class, i just dont like what its become, but that people dont form their own opinons. You cant really talk about a class unless youve played it.

[Goff]

Personally, I think that the bards = weak or clerics = uber is really overlooking the point that DnD is a team game, and that at the end of the day most groups are working together towards the same goal. The help that a bard offers is subtle, but often only noticable once removed.

[Dhavaer]

Bard is possibly the most nasty class to give the leader of a group of low-level mooks. Bonus to attack and damage on all the orcs? Yes plz.

[Fax Celestis]

The main problem with bards happens to be the same as their advantage--they're not focused. They get decent spells, but wizard spells are better. They're decent in a fight, but the fighter's better. They can heal, but the cleric can do it better. They can be a skillmonkey, but the rogue does it better.

[Jade_Tarem]

Um, a lot of people frequent these boards. Many of them - I would venture to say more than half of them - enjoy playing bards (I sure do). Mechanically, however, they do not stand up to full casters or even full tanks in terms of effectiveness. Socially, however, they make a great default party face.

Edit: And Fax, below this post, makes an excellent point. In a party with all roles filled there's little for the bard to do.

[BardicDuelist]

I love bards. They are my fav. to play for several reasons:
Avoiding combat through RP and diplomacy is my preference. The more allies I have, the harder time the BBEG has.

Filling multiple roles helps when you play with smaller groups. I remember when we played a two man dungeon. I played a bard, my friend a druid. The combination worked really well. Since then, whenever we do a two man adventure, I am asked to play a bard.

I am an actor and musician, so I simply enjoy that aspect.

In the Lloyd Alexander "Pyridian Cronicles" which I read when I was younger and read to my little brother, bards are depicted in a way which made me attatch to them.

Buffing the party to victory, while being competent in your own right means that you are that much more amazing.

You can brag when you get back into town and get paid for it (performance).

Fey love you. :smallbiggrin:

[Woot Spitum]

In the Lloyd Alexander "Pyridian Cronicles" which I read when I was younger and read to my little brother, bards are depicted in a way which made me attatch to them.

Bards are the most powerful class in D&D! *twang* Err, that is to say that if you pump diplomacy you can avoid most fights. Against anything! *twang* I mean, that is, anything that you can communicate with.

In all seriousness, Beguilers took away the bard's real niche, which is a real shame. Instead of making bards better, WotC made a new class. Boo.

[Innis Cabal]

a better class at that

[ocato]

Not really better.

[Edo]

The main problem with bards happens to be the same as their advantage--they're not focused.Such is the swordsage's lament too. I have maneuvers from six different disciplines, and I still can't kill things.

The trick with broad-spectrum classes is to designate something that you WILL NOT DO, and make that somebody else's responsibility. (It helps if they're actually good at doing it.)

It keeps most of your versatility. Insofar as you've sacrificed some of it, you're getting something in exchange: teamwork. And teamwork is the holy grail of buffing classes.

(Also of me, because theoretically I could get action points for planning and coordinating the party. I have yet to actually get one this way, but the theory is sound.)

[Talya]

DnD isn't an MMO. Versatility > being the best at any one thing. Bards are rather powerful spellcasters, they aren't supposed to be as powerful in melee as the other melee types. And no, they're not that great in melee either, but honestly, a bard in your party makes the melee fighters you DO have twice as good as they were before.

Our party has a sorceror (me), bard, ranger/fighter(TWF), cleric/fighter (Primarily cleric, but damn he likes to melee), and a paladin. With all that melee power, the bard is devastating. You have 4 guys suddenly doing far more damage on every hit, and hitting way more often. I'd say it doubles the effectiveness of our melee fighters.

[Innis Cabal]

twice as good? I think not, the bard is a shadow of what it once was

[Jewish_Joke]

The Bard is a wonderful class if you make good use of it's spell selection. You don't have to be a wizard to devastate your enemies. A good selection of enchantment spells, along with dispel magic means you can counterspell the enemy wizard and charm or dominate the fighter. Not to mention the fact that bards caster level is equal to his bard level, I don't really see why they say that the bard is underpowered. Take melodic casting and quit your whining already!

[Talya]

twice as good? I think not, the bard is a shadow of what it once was

At 14th level, bardic music is adding +6 attack bonus and damage per hit. (+3 base, song of the heart +1, Harmony +2). That's a HUGE increase in average damage.

[ocato]

L3: Inspire Courage +3 attack and damage added to a L3 fighter (+3 BaB) with, let's say 16 STR. That's a 50% increase in attack and a 100% increase in damage.

L8: Inspire Courage +4 attack and damage added to a L8 fighter (+8/+3 BaB)with, let's say 20 STR. Again, roughly 50% increase in attack and a 80% increase in damage. Add Haste for +1 (more than 50% increase in attack) and oh yeah, an extra highest BaB attack.

Then consider the Bard can now throw heals and use spells that give the rogue, who also got +4/+4, his sneak attack. It is fair to say a Bard increases a melee character's usefulness exponentially. I didn't even mention words of creation, which makes it +6/+6 at L8 instead of +4/+4.

[Jewish_Joke]

Joyful Noise ftw.

Negate silence, the party wizards (and bard's) worst nemesis? Bard only spell? Sold.

[Amphimir Míriel]

I have fond memories of a 2 man party in AD&D 2nd ed... Ranger and Bard...

I havent yet played a Bard in 3.5, but it seems to me that they mantain their "support party" role

And for the record, I don't think there's anything wrong with that... In fact, I always loved those kinds of characters...

[jjpickar]

Bards fare pretty well when they are compared to other buffing classes. Dragon Shamans are well...meh. Marshals are cool but don't have spells. I know clerics are considered buffers but they are full caster too so lets leave them out. The point is Bards compare well with the other classes in their "party buffer" niche.

[Eomir]

I once played a bard that could pump one ally with +14 atk +8 dam and 6 Temp Hit die. You needed to be take the seeker of song prestige class though. They had an ability that allowed you to combind song effects thus gaining two song effects in one standard action!

[ocato]

For a martial bard, I really like to mix magic with mayhem. Remember the Laws of the Battle Bard.
1. Do not forsake buffs, they affect you as well.
2. Do not forsake CC, a laughing enemy is easier to slay than a fighting one.

There are more Laws of the Battle Bard.
Feats I like for Battle Bards
Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) Use a Bardic Music to add Cha to attack with slashing weapon
Power Attack (PHB) Just hear me out...
Song of the Heart (Ebberon) +1 to ALL bardic variables. Inspire Courage, Fascinate/Suggestion DCs, like, everything.
Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer) Songs last 10 rounds after being sung
Arcane Strike (uh... Complete Arcane? I don't remember) This one is foggy in my head, but you pretty much sacrifice a spell and add X to your next attack roll and Xd4 to your next damage roll where X was the spell's level.
Extra Music (complete Adventurer) 4 more songs per day

Do you have the Magic Item Compendium? Get the Crystal Echoblade
Crystal Echoblade
Price (Item Level)" 4,310 gp (9th)
Body Slot: - (held)
Caster Level: 10th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 20) evocation
Activation: -
Weight: 4 lb.

A crystal echoblade normally functions as a +1 longsword, but is enhanced by your musical ability. If you use your bardic music ability while wielding the weapon, the blade resonates in harmony, dealing additional sonic damage on each attack equal to half your bard level.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Bardic Music
Cost to Create: 2,000 go (plus 310 gp for masterwork longsword), 160 XP, 4 days.
You can buff it to more than a +1, but since it's a longsword, it works with Snowflake Wardance.

For Poops and giggles, let's say you're a L12 Human Bard. You have the following feats
1. Snowflake Wardance (I can't remember if there are prereqs, if so, switch this with #9)
1. Power attack
3. Song of the Heart
6. Lingering Song
9. Extra Music
12. Arcane Strike

Str 20 and Cha 20 (not hard for a strength and Charisma focused Bard, remember that this is a slasher, not a skill monkey, so instead of CHA, DEX, then INT, it's more CHA, STR, CON)

Inspirational Boost (+1 to Inspire Courage) on your Inspire Courage makes it a +4 to attack and damage (2 base +1 inspirational boost +1 SotH)
Haste (+1 bonus to attacks, 1 extra attack at your highest BaB)
Use Snowflake Wardance and Arcane Strike one of your L4 spells. This is assuming a +1 Echoblade, a +2 or 3 wouldn't be hard to get.

Full Attack
BaB +9/+4 so

Attack 1. 9+5(str)+5(cha)+4(Insp.Cour)+1(Haste)+4(Arcane Strike)+1 (sword)= +29. Power Attack 9 of that off, so you're swinging with +20.
Two hands on that sword mister!
Damage 1. 1d8+ 18(power attack)+4 (insp cour)+4d4(Arcane Strike)+1 (sword) +6(sonic from sword)= Average at about ~41ish?
Haste! Attack again at that bonus sucka! (assuming you really want to put the hurt on them and use up your other 4th level spell, you could save some trouble and downgrade to a 2nd level spell for subsequent attacks, assuming that Arcane Strike doesn't last throughout a full attack, might be wrong)
Attack 3. 4+5(STR)+5(CHA)+4(Insp. Cour)+1(haste)+2(weaker Arcane Strike)+1 (sword)=+22.
Power Attack 4 of that off, you're swinging at a +18.
Damage 1d8+ 8(power attack)+4(insp cour) +2d4 (Arcane strike)+1(sword)+6(sonic from sword)= ~27.

So that's like, I dunno, if you do arcane strike 4th level spell on both initials... that's about 100 damage if they all hit. Rough estimate. This is a "let me pull out the biggest bard slap I can" average damage will be a bit lower. At L15 grab Lyric Spell if you are having problems with losing spells, you can give up your Music chances for more spells (1+spell level songs gets a spell back) so you can save an ace up your sleeve.

EDIT: Forgot the effects of the sword! Remember, you can buff that so it's like a +5 Flaming or somesuch. Also, I wrote that whole damn thing, and now I read back and realize you asked for a PrC for a Fighter/Bard... Oops?

I think that speaks for itself.

[Ramza00]

The main problem with bards happens to be the same as their advantage--they're not focused. They get decent spells, but wizard spells are better. They're decent in a fight, but the fighter's better. They can heal, but the cleric can do it better. They can be a skillmonkey, but the rogue does it better.

Agreed, for a variant bard you can make one that instead of buffing the party it debuffs the enemy. This will make it alot better for debufffing is harder to find a class for. (Hexblade, Binder, Paladin of Tyranny, Fear/Nauseated stacker are good debuffers but a bard who can do it right of the box would be nice.) Give - penalties to the enemies saves and suddenly the bard becomes a lot more useful.

A variant bard the Harbinger (DR337 p93) is supposed to do this idea, it is located in Dragon or at the Crystal Keep.

[ocato]

If you're using Ebberon, you can pick up a feat that grants a debuffing song as early as L6.

Haunting Melody
Prerequisite: Bardic music, Perform 9 ranks.
Benefit: When you sing or use some other Perform skill, you can inspire fear in enemies within 30 feet of you. Any opponent in range must succeed on a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your bard level + your Cha modifier) or become shaken for a number of rounds equal to your ranks in the Perform skill. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.
Special: Using this ability counts as one of your daily uses of bardic music

Shaken is pretty much the opposite of Good Hope. So -2 to attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and Saving throws. This isn't a bad feat if you can make room for it. However, Mind Fog later down the spell list does a fine job for setting up enchantments as well (-10 to will saves and wisdom checks)

[Ramza00]

Remember when comparing how useful bards are look at this spell



Heroism

Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#enchantment) (Compulsion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#compulsion)) [Mind-Affecting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor)]

Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#level): Brd 2 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/bardSpells.htm#secondLevelBardSpells), Sor/Wiz 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#thirdLevelSorcererWizardS pells) Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components): V, S Casting Time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime): 1 standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions) Range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range): Touch Target (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets): Creature touched Duration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration): 10 min./level Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow): Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance): Yes (harmless) This spell imbues a single creature with great bravery and morale in battle. The target gains a +2 morale bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#moraleModifier) on attack rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll), saves, and skill checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#skillChecks).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroism.htmAt 10 mins a lvl and a 3rd lvl spell its a great buff to give an additional edge to the party. It is a moral bonus so it doesnt' stack with most bardic music. Sure the bard can do better moral bonuses (earlier and greater amount) but by having this spell accessible to other classes the only thing the bard has over other classes is just a slight increase.

In a 5 person party with a Fighter, Rouge, Cleric, and Wizard, who do you want for the 5th member a 10th lvl bard or a Wizard 5/War Weaver 5? (He casts heroism on the whole party through his Quiescent weaving+Enlarged Tapestry as a 3rd lvl spell)

[Townopolis]

I'm pretty sure one of the Gnome Bard substitution levels gives something similar around level 6.

Except it gets more powerful as you keep singing.

[Edit] Yes, it's called Phantasmal Song, same DC, lasts for as long as you sing (and then 1 round after) or until they move further than 30' from you. Also, after 3 consecutive rounds of listening they become frightened.

[Lemur]

I don't hate the bard, but I have noticed something about the way I approach the class. I find I'm not terribly interested in being versatile with the bard. Rather I want to make a character who's concept is "I kill you with music". I really like the music focused prestige classes, like War Chanter, Seeker of the Song, and Dirgesinger, even if taking them means being weaker than a normal bard and losing the "jack of all trades" status (which I'm not sure really applies anyway- see below).

The bard does have some problems, though. He's supposedly a jack of all trades, but I wonder if he really is. I'd put forth the idea that Clerics and druids are the Jacks of All Trades That Really Matter to Adventurers. One of the things about the bard that annoys me is that he can't learn new spells from scrolls, which would be a major advantage to his versatility, even if it means he has to memorize them. This was a major strength of the 2nd ed bard, who learned spells from the same list as a wizard.

[Ramza00]

If you're using Ebberon, you can pick up a feat that grants a debuffing song as early as L6.

Haunting Melody
Prerequisite: Bardic music, Perform 9 ranks.
Benefit: When you sing or use some other Perform skill, you can inspire fear in enemies within 30 feet of you. Any opponent in range must succeed on a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your bard level + your Cha modifier) or become shaken for a number of rounds equal to your ranks in the Perform skill. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.
Special: Using this ability counts as one of your daily uses of bardic music

Shaken is pretty much the opposite of Good Hope. So -2 to attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and Saving throws. This isn't a bad feat if you can make room for it. However, Mind Fog later down the spell list does a fine job for setting up enchantments as well (-10 to will saves and wisdom checks)

I am familiar with that feat, it also appeared in heroes of horror and thus is in every setting. Working on this gestalt build right now focusing on fear Harbinger is it on one side.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=838573

Here is my relevant feat plan for bards
Dreadful Wrath Player's Guide to Faerûn (Fear whenever you cast a spell or attack)
Focused Performance is so I can do 2 bardic musics at once (costs 3 bardic music attempts). Focused Performance (DR338 p89) requires Focused Performer (DR338 p89)
Haunting Melody (which Requiem causes to affect undead, and Green Ear plants)
Fell Frighten with damage spell

When I am done with the build (and the 3 other party members for a fear party theme I will post it in the favorite gestalt guide)

[ocato]

Heroism is a 2nd level spell. At L3 Bards can do +2. +3 if they use a L1 spell. Greater Heroism is, what, a L5 spell? L4? If you take the right (or even less right) feats, you can do +4 at L8, or +6 if you're really hardcore. Without using up spell slots, so why not use them to heal or grant additional buffs? Besides, the Wizard doesn't want to do stupid things like buff. He's unto a tiny god. He has more important things than worrying about how strong the fighter is, right? Songs are easier to do away with than spells, especially since most bards are going to grab Extra Music for 4 more songs.

Give me the 10th level Bard, because 2 wizards is redundant and if you're that hot and heavy for some arcane action, L10 is a great level for the bard to take Sublime Chord.

And please, god help us, let's not start up with "A wizard can do it better". I think this forum has enough of that.

[Nevermore]

My problem with the bard class is the "i play music" is kinda lame. For a class all about entertainment I really don't find them entertaining at all.

However, recently two new variety of bards have swept through my TT group and I've been impressed; The Dirty Limmerik Bard and the Haiku Warrior.

The dirty limmerick bard is well... a bard that instead of playing bardic music says some very raunchy, dirty poems to the group. I find this highly entertaining.

The Haiku Warrior is an asian bard with two levels of Fighter. He wields a katana and is rped just like a samuri or ronin but before each fight the player says a Haiku. Watching Seine scribble Haikus between combats and the evolution or devolution of his Haikus as the night progresses is great! (he starts off impressive and serious, but in the early hours of the morning the haikus are so bad he has us gasping for air from laughter)

[Dausuul]

Such is the swordsage's lament too. I have maneuvers from six different disciplines, and I still can't kill things.

Really? I made a swordsage as my first ToB character and proceeded to shred everything we fought. 1d6 damage (weapon) +4 (Dex from Shadow Blade) +5 (Wis from swordsage class ability) +5d6 (Obscuring Shadow Veil) +2d6+9 (Searing Blade) +1 (magic weapon) = 8d6+19 damage (average 47) on the first attack. Pretty solid for a 9th-level finesse warrior, and it only takes a standard action.

Next round, I dish out the Con damage, plus some more fire. Someplace around round 3 or 4, I recharge with Adaptive Style and start over.

A warblade can do better, of course, but then warblades don't get all the other cool tricks that swordsages do.

As far as bards go: I just don't really get them. I can come up with a character concept I like for a wizard, or a sorceror, or a cleric, or a rogue, or a fighter, sub-optimal though they are. I have a very tough time coming up with a character concept for a bard. Like Elan says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html), you walk into dungeons and... sing at people. Er?

There's also the fact that I like being good at something, and everything a bard can do (Diplomancy aside), somebody else can do as well or better. I prefer to have a definite niche in the party rather than being the, well, fifth wheel.

[Ramza00]

Heroism is a 2nd lvl bard Spell, 3rd lvl Wizard Heroism is an out of combat near all day buff spell for it is 10 min/level and thus last a long time (20 mins if you use extend with it)

Heroism Greater is a 5th Bard, 6th lvl Wizard spell it is an in combat spell or right before combat for it only lasts 1 min/level
--------------------------------

A bard is less likely to cast heroism than a wizard for heroism doesn't stack with inspire courage for the attack rolls (and inspire courage gives a moral bonus to damage rolls) thus heroism is only useful for the saves and the skill points.

--------------------------------

And while I don't want to turn this into Wizards are the bomb thread, I am pointing it out a wizard can do a similar effect, for the fact that Bards are generalists, and if other classes can also do one of the few things bards are "special" at, it reduces the utility of a bard. The lack of the utility bards have due to being generalists are one of the reasons for "bard hate." (Yes full casters are incredible, its been said before, please other people do not harp on how great casters are, Go ahead and point out similar spells that replicate bard effects and then drop it)

[Tor the Fallen]

Hard to powergame with them.
Their special class ability is making noise and knowing trivia.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

The bard is a horridly underpowered caster class that happens to be lots of fun to play. You're always a useful team player, even if you can't be the best in the team at any one thing (...at all). Plus, the flavor is just awesome. It fits the theme of your general D&D adventure very, very well if you stop thinking of it as singing to your enemies for damage. They're adventurers with a little of this and a little of that, highly skilled at song and tales and always looking for new inspiration or their next big stake. You'll find bards among the greatest of all heroes, seeing and remembering their exploits for generations of listeners.

[Machete]

Magic from music? The flavor seems overly silly.

The marshall makes sense to me and seems a decent bard replacement.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

What's so silly about that? All other casters have verbal components to many spells, so clearly sound is a necessity to a lot of magic anyway. Bards just make an art form out of it.

[Dausuul]

What's so silly about that? All other casters have verbal components to many spells, so clearly sound is a necessity to a lot of magic anyway. Bards just make an art form out of it.

Magic from music can work quite well; see the battle of song between Sauron and King Finrod Felagund in the Silmarillion.

However, bards stack up very badly as full casters. Good luck trying to play Finrod as a bard. Moreover, the "magic from music" theme works much better in a world that doesn't have such formulaic, mechanistic magic as D&D. The combination results in bards coming off as silly.

(Now I'm tempted to invent some kind of "master of song" class that creates magical effects through song...)

[Khoran]

" :nale: My father told me that bards are underpowered"

Warning: Incoming Wall of Text

Honestly, most people that I've met that say bards are underpowered don't realize the classes' strengths, and instead only see a 3/4ths BAB with no special attack (Sneak Attack, Flurry of Blows) and a Small Spell Progression that dosn't get Blasting Power or Save-or-Die spells, making them think that class sucks. But it dosn't, it has it's own strengths, ones that are often overlooked.

Lets go down the Bard's list of abilities:
1) Spontanious Casting: Bards are able to choose their spells on the fly. This makes it so the bard can have more flexibility in combat.
2) Armored Casting: Bards can cast in Light Armor without interuption. This can include up to a Mithril Breastplate. Either way, this makes it that if a bard gets into melee (regardless of whether or not it's intentional), he has the extra defense of armor on his side.
3) 3/4 BAB: This mean that inbetween spells and buffs, the bard is able to deal damage some direct damage to the enemy, be it through melee or ranged attacks.
4) Bardic Music: The Corner stone of the Bard Class. This is able to give bonuses no matter what's going on in combat so long as the bard is able to make noise, and out of combat as well. All without using spell slots. Lets break them all down, shall we.
-Countersong: This ability dosn't get used too often from what I've seen, but that dosn't mean that it's not a good ability. That means, so long as it's not telepathic, you are able to attempt to free your friends of a mind-affecting ability that would otherwise remove them from combat and/or turn them against you by the enemies wishes by giving them a new save equal to your perform check, and as we all know, those perform checks can get up there.
-Fascinate: So long as you don't provoke hostilities, this can keep a group of monsters at bay. You play this song, and so long as they don't make their will save, they'll sit there and listen to the pretty music. Should you need it, this will give your allies plenty of time to run away. Once you think your friends are at a far enough distance, it's time that you booked it away from whatever monsters you were just fascinating. This won't always work, but sometimes it can save you from a TPK into a Bard Only Kill.
-Inspire Courage, Compitence, Greatness and Heroics: I don't need to explain why these are good.
-Suggestion: Great, now that you've gotten that mob of angry creatures to stop attacking you. You talk one or two of them into beating up on their buddy. So long as your enemies don't have good will saves, you should be able to get the entire crowd to fight each other. If it's instead one big monster, you talk him into letting you go free. Sure, there is the chance they could make their save, but that risk exists for all classes. This only gets better when you get mass suggestion in place of it. Oh, lets not forget, it dosn't take up any spells or uses of bardic knowledge.
-Song of Freedom: Not useful in a combat situation, however, I will give it that. However, that dosn't mean that it's useless. If you believe that someone in your team might be dominated, offer to play a song for them. You've got a good bluff score, right? Then they shouldn't suspect a thing. After a minute, poof, dominate should be gone and your friend is back to normal.
Speaking of Bluff
5)Social Skills: Bluff and Diplomacy arn't wonderful in combat. However, one thing they are good for is avoiding combat. Also, a good Gather Information Check, along with a good Sence Motive may reveal something incredibly helpful about all sorts of things. From where to get the best deals on magic items, to details of the next dungeon you plan to explore, to something that would severly weaken the Villan.
6)Bardic Knowledge: This little catch all ability is always good for getting some quick details on the latest dungeon you've discovered, magic item you've found, relic you're looking for, Details about the villan ECT. Granted, this won't always be helpful, but it saves having to have a bunch of different knowledges to get similiar information
*)Cure Spells: Sure, other classes have them, but the fact that the bard has them makes it so that they would be able help out with curing if the Cleric was down, or was to far away to get to someone who needs one right then. Also it lets the bard handle an extra wand of a cure spell without the risk of them wasting charges.

All and all, I think that makes for a powerful class, even if it's not all upfront power. People who make fun of bards have never seen them used to the full extent.

[Tor the Fallen]

1) Spontanious Casting: Bards are able to choose their spells on the fly. This makes it so the bard can have more verstility in combat.

Flexibility, and a limited one.
Wizards have versatility.

[Khoran]

Flexibility, and a limited one.
Wizards have versatility.

I knew that wasn't the right word. I just couldn't remember the right one. Thanks, fixing it for clarification.

[Tor the Fallen]

I knew that wasn't the right word. I just couldn't remember the right one. Thanks, fixing it for clarification.

I confuse em frequently, too.

Personally, I like bards. Sometimes. If they're not played as fops.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK guys,:smallbiggrin:

I'll have to support Khoran here, and maybe take it a step further: bards are not only quite powerful, they are (at least in core) the most powerful class, mechanically, IMO. At high levels, they may get overtaken by clerics, druids and wizards as they get the power of 7th-9th level spells. But in levels 1-10? Unlikely.

1) They have full caster levels. With dispels and greater dispel and maybe an ioun stone, they can counter and dispel at 50:50 rate against same level full caster opponents. This frees the full caster in the party for offense. Better yet, with a readied dispel, they can dispel ANY dispelling attempts by the opposing caster.
2) Better yet, their specialty is enchantment and illusion spells, which are quite frontloaded in their power. You can wreak already havoc with a silent image and a charm person at low levels with your opponents. Many illusion spells if used cleverly even will rarely allow a save, and are even SR-proof. And all charm spells are better than the typical save or dies, since they are save or fight by my side! (this is so good that some creatures like undead are immune for that, but for those just stack up some holy arrows or get requiem feat non-core). For both enchantment and illlusion, you can set the Save DC at almost as high levels as other full casters.
3) They can cast spontaneously. Khoran already mentioned this, but it deserves (even a 2nd) repitition: They can cast spontaneously. No bothersome memorising in the morning, just some poetry/drumbeating/whatever and you are set.
Plus, similiar to the sorcerer, they are not plagued as other casters (should be in average campaigns) by some drawbacks, since their spell casting is not vulnerable to a god's favour, loyalty to nature or the well-being of a spellbook which, in particular at low levels, can get stolen/destroyed/whatever.
4) The combo fascinate (with stellar save DC) with as many suggestions as you have levels is simply awesome. If a creature is not immune to mind-affecting stuff, then it's affected. You only need to win initiative. And that is already at mid-levels.
5) Skills, skills, skills. Bards with inspire competence and following up with aid another can give +4 to a skill check and thus help their fellow adventures for that key climb, open lock, forgery, disarm trap, move silently and whatever check. And that already at low levels, where such a dimension of bonus is awesome.
6) as for 3/4 BAB and low hps and only light armour: Specialise in archery (elf race gets you the coveted composite long bow for free), use inspire courage to keep on par with a fighter and then from 7th level join with Haste to have as many attacks with as much ooomph as an opponent fighter archer. And to keep your fighter archer colleague happy, all the inspire courage and haste boni apply to him as well (stack with most of his previous buffs as well). Now that's the spirit of a group game, all ye CoDzillas out there!:smallsmile:
For defense, use mirror image from 4th level and the various other spell goodies. Greater mirror image from the PHB II is awesome for bards.
7) Take an item creation feat or scribe scroll to create cheaper items than any other caster for some effects like charm monster, hold monster, irresistible dance, legend lore etc. at much earlier levels.
8) Skills part II: UMD and Diplomacy alone can be match-winners. If a bard happens to need a spell (divine or arcane, even druid, paladin or ranger spells can be emulated this way), he'll just UMD a scroll and that's it. Diplomacy has been shown various times already on these boards that it can reach a the "win-button" league of time stop etc. Only that diplomacy is available already at first level, whereas the wizard win buttons are available only much, much later...
9) Skills part III: Glibness spell. Bluff +30. Available at 7th level. Nuff said.
10) Skills part IV: Bardic knowledge. Boost with heroism spells if needed. At DC 30 gives you a wizard's childhood nickname. Also, nuff said.
11) Ah, and the beguiler from PHB II is a similarly strong class, but it has much less of a buffing role and is (even more!) of an enchanter/illusionist specialist. So, for once, it will never reach the combat strength of a bard.

- Giacomo

[Cyborg Pirate]

I don't notice much Bard hate on the forums. If anything, I've always believed there were a Mass of people here that love Bards.

Me myself, I don't like bards. Nothing to do with their combat prowess. I don't like them because of the whole "I play music and everyone fights better" thing, and the whole "I magically charm people with my class features thing". I prefer classes like Marshall.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong about music having positive and negative influences on people. I just don't think they had to design a whole class around it.

[Saph]

They're a decent class. Not awesome, not terrible, just decent. They take a bit of preparation, but they can do well in a large party or a social-oriented campaign.

They aren't as brokenly powerful as a twinked full caster, but really, that's a plus, not a minus.

- Saph

[d12]

I have to say I also don't really seem to notice an overabundance of bard hate on here. Maybe it's one of those selective memory things where the mind exaggerates the presence of that which it objects to. Of course, I would be as much subject to that as anyone, as I really don't like bards. "I better help out my allies fighting these hordes of beasts--I start singing." "C'mon, you're not really gonna do that are you?" The whole going-into-dungeons-and-singing-at-people thing is just too silly. I get more than enough superfluous song-and-dance routines watching various Star Trek series; I don't need any more in my gaming. If you wanna help out in combat get over there and start stabbing things or start flinging spells around. Now's not the time to be plucking your lute.

Then there's the whole Fascinate/Diplomancer angle. Their abilities seem to be best for making things not happen (though to be fair the diplomancer thing is actually the result of designing Diplomacy very badly). "Remember the shouting barbarian foaming at the mouth and hefting his huge axe while running right at us? Well he's now indifferent to my existence..and I did that in 6 seconds." Come on. I didn't interrupt during the designated drama queen time back in town, but now it's time to make things bleed and loot their broken corpses.

So much of the class is just so antithetical to my playstyle.

[Bender]

I love bards!

Magic from harmonious music makes much more sense to me then magic from bat guano and some gestures in the air.
There are lots of stories and myths that describe magical effects from music. (to name a few: sirens, pan, the rat catcher (pipes of the sewers can be fun), I think Tolkiens universe originated from music in the Ainulindalë (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainulindal%C3%AB)...)
I don't like prepared casting either, that doesn't really make much sense to me... just a personal feeling

Now let's impersonate the king with insane bluff and disguise and start a war :smallbiggrin: (edit: which is great for stories)

[BardicDuelist]

I must mention annother reason why I love bards: Cyrano de Bergerac
He fought duels while reciting a ballad. So cool.
If given the proper defensive feats (expertise, deadly defense, defensive strike), for sneek attack and annother use of bluff (feinting) a level of rogue, spellthief, or ninja (if ninja, take ascetic mage at 6th level), you have a midlevel duelist who is charming and useful out of combat (UMD for the win).

Hence my namesake.

[Grey Paladin]

Once you taste good wine, you cannot drink cheap one ever again

Likewise, once you play an Athasian (Darksun) bard there is no way back.

[Yvian]

Are bards good? I think it depends if you are role-playing or roll-playing.

If you have a decent sized group [4 to 5 players] you can find a more effective combination then running a bard. Bards have few “I win” buttons that work reliable. And in the deepest darkest dungeon, songs are not going to help you against traps, undead, and constructs.

On the other hand, if you are role-playing, bards really give you that versatility and flexibility. If you DM allows you to think and talk around situations, even better. They have good solid powers – but their soft powers, not hard

[BooBooSpooki]

Magic from harmonious music makes much more sense to me then magic from bat guano and some gestures in the air.


Beware, all knaves, all addle-coves
Who do not fear a bardic foe!
When least prepared, he strikes unknown,
With rapier, spell or dissent sown,
Or else through verse and inspiration,
Does rally friends into elation !

[Mellchia]

I actually like the bard for all the reasons people don't like it. We can chat about how the buffing is similar to other classes - but how many of you take buffing spells to buff your fellow party members?

Consistently from what I have seen, the Bard buffs. That's more than said than the rest of the spellcasting parties.

As for as versatility and jack-of-all-trades-but-really-none, I like it because then I don't become the auto-default for the party when doing something, like healing, spellcasting, or fighting. The out of game conversation of "Why'd you do that or pick that it's a waste" becomes lessened.

I see bard as the counter to what D&D often becomes - a game of number crunching. So I enjoy playing it and having fun chanting or playing the fiddle/flute.

[Tehnar]

The only time I played a bard is in a campaign that Im playing in now. He got himself to lvl 4 then died because of my stupidity (and the damn 20 on the sense motive NPC roll check). But in a group of with 4 melee characters he was very efective. Sure you might not do much dmg yourself but add up the extra dmg you give to other party members and it adds up. And with various knowledge skills really help against funky monsters.

[kellandros]

I've seen huge long posts about how wizards rule through battlefield control, not direct damage dealing. And clerics can buff themselves to nigh demigods of power and might. And the party rogue can be a better skillmonkey.

With the ability to do some of everything, they should make a small party much more flexible. I keep getting reminded of the Aid Another ability, which would seem utterly perfect for bards. So the rogue is better at picking locks, finding traps, reading books, being a jerk, etc. With the bard's help, he gets an extra little boost. And in combat, if one role is more useful, the bard can switch over to those abilities. Or he can go fill in as a second XXXX if that's what you need.

[jjpickar]

I guess the problem some people have with bards is that in combat they really can't hog the spotlight as much as a wizard/cleric/what have you can. On the social scene however...

[Dausuul]

Consistently from what I have seen, the Bard buffs. That's more than said than the rest of the spellcasting parties.

...

I see bard as the counter to what D&D often becomes - a game of number crunching. So I enjoy playing it and having fun chanting or playing the fiddle/flute.

This is ironic, actually, because it touches on another of my complaints about the bard--namely, that bardic music buffs are mostly "You get +X."

I really dislike this type of buff, for two reasons.

First, D&D already has way too much number crunching (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html). The game is piled high with feats, spells, and special abilities that give +X to this and +Y to that and +Z versus undead on Thursdays. It makes the game hard for new players, it's a headache for the DM, and it often slows combat to a crawl.

Second, buffs that give "+X to Y for Z rounds" have no flavor and no style. They just make some numbers bigger. I vastly prefer buffs that have a clear, noticeable effect, like the Luck feats that give you a number of re-rolls. When you roll a natural 1 on your saving throw and then get to re-roll it, you really feel the impact of that buff. It might have roughly the same mechanical impact as "+X to your saves," but it's both easier to keep track of and much more fun to use.

[Woot Spitum]

2) Better yet, their specialty is enchantment and illusion spells, which are quite frontloaded in their power. You can wreak already havoc with a silent image and a charm person at low levels with your opponents. Many illusion spells if used cleverly even will rarely allow a save, and are even SR-proof. And all charm spells are better than the typical save or dies, since they are save or fight by my side! (this is so good that some creatures like undead are immune for that, but for those just stack up some holy arrows or get requiem feat non-core). For both enchantment and illlusion, you can set the Save DC at almost as high levels as other full casters.
- Giacomo

One little nitpick, charm spells only make the target friendly, they don't get the target to do whatever you want (that's dominate). Charm spells cannot make your target do anything it wouldn't normally do. Furthermore, the target is only friendly toward you, not the rest of your party. The orc barbarian will smile at you while moving over to beat the party rogue to a pulp. Finally, enemies get a sizable bonus to resist charm if it is cast in combat.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

I find antipathy towards Bards stems from the concept that as a class, the Bard is very easy to screw up. The Bard has many skills and abilities available. If you don't have a good idea on where you are heading with your Bard, he can easily go from decent support to party fifth wheel. On the other hand, if you have a good handle on his skills, abilities, and an idea where he will develop, the Bard can be a welcome addition to the party.

[Telonius]

I love the Bard, as a role. I just don't think the mechanics of the class really do it justice. If they had spells per day as a sorcerer, d8 hit dice, and all Martial weapons, I'd say that would go a lot farther towards balancing it.

[ocato]

You see, for all the people going on about how weak bards are and want to play the massive zomgcrush'um classes, I cannot understand why you don't simply appreciate bards. I am not saying that all of the parties in the world should fight over who gets to be the bard. I am saying that when a member of your team, be it a 2 man team or a 10 man team says "I'm rolling a bard," maybe it'd be nice if your responses were positive instead of negative.

I don't have this problem with my party because they know better. I tried to play a barbarian and they were like "You mean a Bardbarian... a Bard. You're a bard." They've seen us live and die by buffs, bluffs, and Bard Magic.

Someone mentioned that if you want to come on the adventure, you should be willing to help instead of screwing around on your lute but... If bards are so utterly useless at fighting as some of you seem to think, then why is it when they stand back and buff the bajesus out of you, your response is "I R BETER THEN BARD!" and not like... "Good thing we had that bard buff or we might've had some trouble."

As for the flavor problem, you do realize that perform is a very versatile skill. You can make much cooler performances if 'singing' is too 'lame' for you. You can Chant, for example. Imagine some guy standing behind your enemies chanting eerily while they rip you to shreds in a frenzy. You can play drums. Imagine an army marching forward, and the rhythm keeping drum beats are also making them half again as strong. Uh oh.

Bards are getting a lot of "another class can do that better" and that is true. In some cases. I mean, if bards had disable device, open lock, and forgery, the rogue class might as well disappear. I'm not advocating that. I'm just saying that Bards as skill monkeys are still pretty useful. Someone mentioned another class being better at Diplomacy/Bluffing. It'll be a class that is very similar to the bard but skewed differently (Like the beguiler, who is pretty much a bard who sold his lute for more spells) if any class at all. Most classes don't use Charisma as a base stat, and Sorcerer's don't even really have people skills.

Bards can contribute to just about any party in just about any kind of game. Kick in the door hack and slash to court intrigue and all inbetween.

[Fourth Tempter]

Are bards good? I think it depends if you are role-playing or roll-playing.

If I may, I would implore you to refrain from using that terminology. It is arbitrary and divisive; the two are not opposites. In addition, "roll-playing", besides being quite a queer negative term to apply in regards to a game which consists in large part of rolling dice, has been irreparably tainted by the sneering, superior attitude of "role-players" who seem to consider chatting with merchants for hours on end and playing crippled deaf-mute adventurers the height of quality storytelling.

"Roll-playing" as a term contributes little to nothing to any such discussion, and ought rightly to be consigned to ineffability.

[Fax Celestis]

You see, for all the people going on about how weak bards are and want to play the massive zomgcrush'um classes, I cannot understand why you don't simply appreciate bards. I am not saying that all of the parties in the world should fight over who gets to be the bard. I am saying that when a member of your team, be it a 2 man team or a 10 man team says "I'm rolling a bard," maybe it'd be nice if your responses were positive instead of negative.

I don't have this problem with my party because they know better. I tried to play a barbarian and they were like "You mean a Bardbarian... a Bard. You're a bard." They've seen us live and die by buffs, bluffs, and Bard Magic.

Someone mentioned that if you want to come on the adventure, you should be willing to help instead of screwing around on your lute but... If bards are so utterly useless at fighting as some of you seem to think, then why is it when they stand back and buff the bajesus out of you, your response is "I R BETER THEN BARD!" and not like... "Good thing we had that bard buff or we might've had some trouble."

As for the flavor problem, you do realize that perform is a very versatile skill. You can make much cooler performances if 'singing' is too 'lame' for you. You can Chant, for example. Imagine some guy standing behind your enemies chanting eerily while they rip you to shreds in a frenzy. You can play drums. Imagine an army marching forward, and the rhythm keeping drum beats are also making them half again as strong. Uh oh.

Bards are getting a lot of "another class can do that better" and that is true. In some cases. I mean, if bards had disable device, open lock, and forgery, the rogue class might as well disappear. I'm not advocating that. I'm just saying that Bards as skill monkeys are still pretty useful. Someone mentioned another class being better at Diplomacy/Bluffing. It'll be a class that is very similar to the bard but skewed differently (Like the beguiler, who is pretty much a bard who sold his lute for more spells) if any class at all. Most classes don't use Charisma as a base stat, and Sorcerer's don't even really have people skills.

Bards can contribute to just about any party in just about any kind of game. Kick in the door hack and slash to court intrigue and all inbetween.

Entirely granted on all counts. However, my previous statement stands: bards are decent at everything, and this makes them weaker than other, more focused, characters.

[ocato]

Yes. Weaker at individual tasks. But if the cleric is down, you can be the best lock picker in dodge, and it won't pick him back up.

Versatility is strength.

[Penguinsushi]

I think the biggest reason people dislike bards has to do with the fact that they are a not a niche class. In fact, I'd submit that most of the reasons people complain about any class sucking could be traced back to something like this:

People like to feel that their character plays a vital role: i.e., is the best at something or, at least can do something no one else can. With classes like the bard, that is frequently not the case (in decent-sized parties). Therefore, people don't like the class because it gets outshined in any one area by other members of the party.

Again, there's a lot to d&d besides the simple mechanics.

~PS

[Fourth Tempter]

Actually, in Dungeons & Dragons, versatility isn't strength, it's (somewhat tragically) ineffectualness. You see, challenges are posed with the expectation that they will somewhat trouble the member of your party whose job it is to deal with such challenges: that is, saving throws presume a wizard's or sorcerer's Difficulty Check ratings, attack bonuses, damage, and armor class presume that the monster in question will be battling some mighty front-line warrior, traps and locks presume that a rogue will be fiddling with them.

The bard comes down with the same problem that skills in which one invests cross-class do: the difficulty of everything that's meant to challenge is based on the idea that you've been investing fully into your party role.


Added upon seeing the previous message: there is some amount of truth to your statement; however, the complaint you've identified is quite thoroughly legitimate! Besides the problem I have identified above, the solution to many problems can only be undertaken by one person at a time! Being somewhat competent at scouting and at combat won't do you a whit of good when the rogue, who is twice as stealthy, does all the scouting, and the warrior battles monsters you dare not approach because they'd splatter your music-addled brains all over the filth-encrusted dungeon floor.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes. Weaker at individual tasks. But if the cleric is down, you can be the best lock picker in dodge, and it won't pick him back up.

Versatility is strength.

Versatility is indeed strength, but when I really want a healer, I'm going to ask for a cleric. I want a lock picked, I'll ask a rogue. A spell cast? I'll ask a wizard. Someone needs a good beating? Fighter.

The bard can indeed fill any of those roles in a pinch, but if given the option, I want the real thing, not an imitation.

[ocato]

You assume that the bard's goal is to replace people who are specialized in certain tasks. It isn't. Let one trick pony bob do his one task, and I'll help him do it better. Then the next task comes along, a new member will step forward to do it, and I'll help him too. Then, when it comes around to my turn to shine, I'll shine just as bright as the rest of them, diplomacy and bluff time. The strength of versatility is that when we're tested on a locked door, a strong monster, or some need for magical healing, if the person who is supposed to handle it can't, we don't fail. Because the bard picks up the slack.

Because it's a team effort.

[Fax Celestis]

You assume that the bard's goal is to replace people who are specialized in certain tasks. It isn't. Let one trick pony bob do his one task, and I'll help him do it better. Then the next task comes along, a new member will step forward to do it, and I'll help him too. Then, when it comes around to my turn to shine, I'll shine just as bright as the rest of them, diplomacy and bluff time. The strength of versatility is that when we're tested on a locked door, a strong monster, or some need for magical healing, if the person who is supposed to handle it can't, we don't fail. Because the bard picks up the slack.

Because it's a team effort.

I assume that the Bard is supposed to be good at his job: being a secondary combattant, a secondary caster, a secondary healer, and a party face. He is indeed good at all of these things.

But if given the choice between a primary caster and a secondary caster/healer/fighter, I'll take the primary caster. The same holds true for healing and fighting. Why? Because with specialization comes expertise, and with expertise comes superiority.

I don't mind a bard in addition to a healer/fighter/caster combo; in fact, I much prefer them to a rogue. Similarly, when short from the H/F/C combo (say, missing a healer and a caster), substituting a bard to fill both slots is preferable, since they can pick up the slack on both.

[Fourth Tempter]

Then what IS the bard's goal? To aid other people in performing their functions? To perform those functions when the person who is actually skilled is somehow incapacitated?

With all due respect and with my apologies, the former isn't something the bard is competent at, either, and the latter is hardly much of a purpose. "Help them do it better" is all well and good as a concept, but the bonuses bardic music provides are, I fear, nearly insignificant the vast majority of the time.As for the latter... if the warrior has fallen, a bard will not be able to fill that gap. If the mage has fallen, the bard's spells can not compensate, barring a few specific situations. If a trap slew the rogue, it will slay any bard who comes near it. And if the cleric has slipped into unconsciousness, a potion could revive him just as ably as the bard.

Social skills are the bard's strong point--however, being the "face" of a group isn't a viable party role; it's a sub-role, much like "scout" or "sage". By that, I mean that it is something that a character can and should cover as part of his role: for example, the party cleric may invest in Diplomacy, or the rogue in it and Bluff. Scouting, similarily is part of what the rogue or ranger does, not something you bring an entirely new person for.

It is possible to be competent at things that aren't your role without shining at them. An example of this is the rogue and combat: the rogue simply can't substitute for a mighty-thewed warrior--but he can and does contribute to combat because of his Sneak Attack.
The bard, however, avoids that possibility.

Even at the bard's support role, he doesn't shine. An Arcane Trickster, for example, can perform essentially any task you'd ask a bard to do (including heal, thanks to wands and the Use Magical Device skill), and he can locate and disable traps and perform a variety of magical feats the bard simply can't hope to imitate, to boot.

[Amphimir Míriel]

:smallbiggrin: So, in conclusion, plenty of Bard love here... :smallbiggrin:

[Talya]

the bonuses bardic music provides are, I fear, nearly insignificant the vast majority of the time.


So averaging doubling melee damage at any level is insignificant???

That goes extra for fighters who use a two hander and have no trouble hitting to begin with. The +7 to hit/+7 damage translates to +21 damage per hit for that guy.




As for the latter... if the warrior has fallen, a bard will not be able to fill that gap. If the mage has fallen, the bard's spells can not compensate, barring a few specific situations. If a trap slew the rogue, it will slay any bard who comes near it. And if the cleric has slipped into unconsciousness, a potion could revive him just as ably as the bard.

The bard can fill all those gaps quite well, actually.
They are good (but not great) melee combatants.
They are powerful arcane casters, even if not quite as powerful as a sorceror or wizard.
Traps? UMD, wand or scrolls of this. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findTraps.htm) Then they can worry about a different way to bypass it.
Ideally you heal someone before they slip into unconsciousness, and in a way that does not provoke an AOO for that person.


Social skills are the bard's strong point--however, being the "face" of a group isn't a viable party role; it's a sub-role, much like "scout" or "sage". By that, I mean that it is something that a character can and should cover as part of his role: for example, the party cleric may invest in Diplomacy, or the rogue in it and Bluff. Scouting, similarily is part of what the rogue or ranger does, not something you bring an entirely new person for.

It's certainly a viable role in addition to all their other utility. They are already superior in usefulness to a party than any of the heavy melee types.

[Dragor]

I agree that the Bard is the jack of all trades, master of none- however, they do have some very amusing later spells.

Otto's Irresistible Dance? WIN.

Wizard argues. Bard cites spell.

"Dance, bi*ch!"

[Dausuul]

So averaging doubling melee damage at any level is insignificant???

That goes extra for fighters who use a two hander and have no trouble hitting to begin with. The +7 to hit/+7 damage translates to +21 damage per hit for that guy.

How do bards manage to grant +7 to hit/+7 damage?

[Talya]

How do bards manage to grant +7 to hit/+7 damage?

+4 base for Inspire Courage.
+1 for Song of the Heart (feat) on inspire courage.
+2 for "Harmony" (Swift casting spell boost for inspire courage.)

[KoDT69]

Bards, the other white meat! I like bards in general. Why? Because they don't break the game (unless they abuse Diplomacy) and don't make any other classes useless in comparison. They have good versatility aand can have a lot of fun role-play aspects! I mean really, not every character should PWN TEH WORLD at level 4 like a wizard, but that's a whole other topic that would get me lots of hate mail. I disagree with 70% of the WotC published spells, feats, and PrC's for arcane casters... :smallyuk:

[Dausuul]

+4 base for Inspire Courage.
+1 for Song of the Heart (feat) on inspire courage.
+2 for "Harmony" (Swift casting spell boost for inspire courage.)

So, this is something you can't do until 20th level... what about, say, 10th, where people actually play characters? When do you get access to Song of the Heart and harmony?

[Talya]

So, this is something you can't do until 20th level... what about, say, 10th, where people actually play characters? When do you get access to Song of the Heart and harmony?

Song of the heart is a feat with a prerequisite of bardic music ability, so level 1.

Harmony is a level 1 bard spell, so assuming you have at a charisma of between 12 and 18, you can use it once per day at level 2. At level 10 you're looking at a +4 bonus.

[Turcano]

They are the source of the 'invisible pigeons' plan.

This "invisible pigeons" plan intrigues me and I wish to learn more.

Anyway, the only thing that's bad about bards is the fact that the class needs to take a prestige class (i.e., Sublime Chord) to be mechanically competitive with other classes.

[Kurobara]

I'm a Bard//Favored Soul in a gestalt game, one where nearly everyone else is some sort of combat monkey//some full caster (plus our one Artificer//lots of stuff). Granted, we do tend to shred through things no matter what just because we're also just a fairly large party, especially for gestalt.

One of the other players once told me that our DM said that I'm the one he has to worry about breaking the encounters in favor of the PCs - because I focus on making everyone more awesome.

The usefulness of party buffs is really not something to underestimate.

[Ramza00]

I think the biggest reason people dislike bards has to do with the fact that they are a not a niche class. In fact, I'd submit that most of the reasons people complain about any class sucking could be traced back to something like this:

People like to feel that their character plays a vital role: i.e., is the best at something or, at least can do something no one else can. With classes like the bard, that is frequently not the case (in decent-sized parties). Therefore, people don't like the class because it gets outshined in any one area by other members of the party.

Again, there's a lot to d&d besides the simple mechanics.

~PS

Agrees, that is why some people don't like bards.

On the other hand that is the reason some like to play bards.

[Ramza00]

This is the best I have seen of a bard doing the inspire line

15th lvl bard with the vest of legends (DMGII, 16,000gp) treated as five levels higher for inspire courage, +5 diplomacy. Thus treated as a 20th lvl bard and thus
+4 (Inspire Courage)
+1 (Song of Heart) feat
+1 (Badge of Valor) MIC, 1,400gp 3/day increase inpirse courage bonus by 1 for duration of the bardic music use.
+1 (Inspirational Boost) spell in Complete Adventurer, note a similar spell Harmony in the Player's Guide to Faerun has since been renamed Inspirational Boost and folded into Inspirational Boost with the Spell Compedium.
Total=+7 Attack and Damage
Word of Creation doubles this effect for +14 Attack and Damage note Words of Creation is an exalted feat, furthemore you will take 3d4 non-lethal damage whenever you use it.Credit goes to mittenninja and this post note he/she didn't know that the spell compendium has since folded those two spells together as one.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12116518#post12116518

[Fhaolan]

I actually quite like bards. I'm just not overly fond of the 3.x Bard class. I want to play bards who are historians, lawyers, actors and orators. I don't want to play a musician in motley every single time.

Of course, I have issues with the flavor of the Druid class as well. I'm a Celtic/Nordic neopagan at heart, I guess. :)

[ocato]

Well, I hate to start friendly fire here, but Harmony was changed to Inspirational Boost, so it's just a +1. Words of Creation is 99% of the time ruled to only double the base bonus, not additional bonuses. Also, I believe Song of the Heart requires you to be L3 at the earliest. You need 6 ranks in perform to apply for it.

But still, you can get +7/+7 as early at L8.
+2 Base, x2 Words of Creation = +4
+1 Inspirational Boost, +1 Song of the Heart, +1 Badge of Valor (or the Masterwork Horn in Races of Faerun also gives +1 I believe, not sure if they stack)

Fax, the 'you assume' comment was directed at the other guy, you slipped yours in there while I was typing. That doesn't make up for it, it was poorly worded and impolite. I apologize to both of you.


It is possible to be competent at things that aren't your role without shining at them. An example of this is the rogue and combat: the rogue simply can't substitute for a mighty-thewed warrior--but he can and does contribute to combat because of his Sneak Attack.
The bard, however, avoids that possibility.

You see, you say Sneak Attack like it is so much better than any other ability. However, your rogue sneak attacking (when applicable) is probably going to average less damage than a similarly situated (ie, melee combat ready) Bard. Throwing extra dice isn't always ideal. I think a strong Inspire Courage and Haste probably comes pretty close to meeting a mid-level sneak attack just in that the extra attack and damage are on every hit instead of situational, and that you are adding a whole nother attack at the highest BaB with all those buffs on it. When sneak attack moves into the higher levels, Arcane Strike helps the Bard keep up. I don't have anything against rogues, but commenting on an extra d6 or three isn't really going to be the crux of any anti-bard arguement.

Also, I think we just agreed there. It is possible to be competant at things that aren't your role without shining at them. Infact, that is pretty close to my point. Yes. The rogue is a better skill monkey and the cleric is a better healer and the wizard can cast better spells and the fighter can swing his sword better. But the Bard can do all of those competantly. He just doesn't shine at them. If you build your bard a certain way, leaning in any one of those directions, the others become less potent. That's the idea. You can make a Bard be good at a few things. You can also make one that is great at one or two things and meh at some others. Again, it is about versatility. And fun.

[Ramza00]

Bard Archetypes which are better than the normal bard 20 (from a mechanical perspective)

Bard 6/Virutso 4/Sublime Chord 2/Virutso 6 (10 total levels)/X 2
19 lvls of Bardic Music
Virutso lvls stack with Bard lvls for Bardic Music and Inspire Courage (thus I get Inspire Courage +3 at lvl 16 and Inspire Courage +4 at lvl 22)
Full Sublime Chord Casting
Virtuso Abilities
Perform check instead of Diplomacy Check to affluence Npcs
Sustaining Song (Stablize dying people)
Jarring Song (Enemies within 30 feet must beat your perform check with a concentration check else they can't cast spells, your allies can still cast spells)
Song of Fury (Allies have the choice to enter a rage, if they have rage doesn't use a rage attempt per day)
Mindbending Melody (Spell functions as Dominate Person)
Revealing Melody (All allies within 30 feet get true seeing as long as virutso performs)Things you lose compared to a full bard
Inspire greatness
Song of Freedom
Inspire heroics
Mass suggestionThe things you gain though easily make up for what you lose.

------------------------

Bard 9/Virutso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virutso 8 (9 total levels)
19 lvls of Bardic Music
Virutso lvls stack with Bard lvls for Bardic Music and Inspire Courage (thus I get Inspire Courage +3 at lvl 16 and Inspire Courage +4 at lvl 22)
Full Sublime Chord Casting
Inspire greatness
9 lvls of Virtuso Abilities aka
Perform check instead of Diplomacy Check to affluence Npcs
Sustaining Song (Stablize dying people)
Jarring Song (Enemies within 30 feet must beat your perform check with a concentration check else they can't cast spells, your allies can still cast spells)
Song of Fury (Allies have the choice to enter a rage, if they have rage doesn't use a rage attempt per day)
Mindbending Melody (Spell functions as Dominate Person)Things you lose compared to a full bard
Song of Freedom
Inspire heroics
Mass suggestionThe differences between these two builds is that you trade inspire greatness (temp bonus HD) for Revealing Melody (allies gain true seeing)

------------------------

Beguiler 6/Prestige Bard 2/Virtuso 10/X 2
Cast as a 18th lvl Beguiler (Loses 1 spellcasting level at Prestige Bard 1, lose the other with Virutso 1)
Inspire Courage as a 12th lvl Prestige Bard (Gets Inspire Courage +3 at 11th lvl of Prestige Bard) Wont' get any other bard songs will get all the virutso songs including fascinate and the stuff I listed above
According to page 71 of UA (note it isn't at d20srd for d20srd doesn't publish those small boxes in the corner/bottom of the page) you also gain all the bard unique spells as the way your class learns spells. Thus all the bard unique spells are instantly transfered to the beguiler spell known list.Take the apprentice feat from DMG 2 to get Perform as a class skill. I believe it was the "entertainer" subset of apprentice.)

Remember also "A prestige bard casts arcane spells from the schools of divination, enchantment, and illusion at +2 caster level. She casts arcane spells from the schools of evocation and necromancy at -2 caster level."

[Arbitrarity]

Isn't Virutso 3.0?

Ah, I see. I like :P.

I'm playing a bard in a 5'th level, to be long running campaign soon :D.

[Ramza00]

Isn't Virutso 3.0?
virtuoso first appeared in Songs and Silence, it was then updated to 3.5 in Complete Adventurer. It is a great bard prestige class to combine with Sublime Chord for it is one of those prestige classes that you get to decide at every level you get to choose how the 9/10 spellcasting goes towards.

[ocato]

I just wanted to clarify this, because I mentioned it earlier.

Arcane Strike
Complete Warrior
Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast 3rd level arcane spells, BaB +4
Benefit: Sacrifice a spell for +1 to attacks +1d4 damage per level of the spell for 1 round per spell level.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

I actually quite like bards. I'm just not overly fond of the 3.x Bard class. I want to play bards who are historians, lawyers, actors and orators. I don't want to play a musician in motley every single time.

Of course, I have issues with the flavor of the Druid class as well. I'm a Celtic/Nordic neopagan at heart, I guess. :)

Actually, I'd argue that the versatility of the Bard class can allow for a historian, lawyer, actor, and orator. Though Performance is typically associated with music, I'd be more that willing to grant similar bonuses to a skilled orator who can inspire his companions to victory through a rousing speech. The class itself lends to myriad roles, and what one focuses in skill and ability determines what kind of bard is played. Granted, there are stereotypes that are easy to fall in when playing any class, and the amusing songster is the bard's.

Much of that, in my opinion, falls to the design of DnD 3.x. As a game, it's easy to fall into a cycle of attempting to overcome obstacles in order to gain skills and equipment to help one overcome greater obstacles. It's easy to fall into a pattern of making the best character build to simply overcome constant combat objectives. The bard has great combat support, but shines outside of combat. It's something that isn't always appreciated in the way character advancement is set up in the game itself.

[Thunder_Ranger]

In my humble opinion, Bards are an amazing class. Who else can be the spy, the diplomat, the one who gets the entire party out of trouble, and the one who can trun the tide of combat, all roled into one muisc infused package? I will admit, since my DM evolved and realized that D+D WASN"T all about combat and who can kill who, swiching to an intruge laden campain (based heavily on 24...) my kick-arse Bard became even better, and this is probably making me biased... No matter, Bard love.

[the_tick_rules]

the board is wizard-centric. i've seen some powerful bards in my day.

[Talya]

the board is wizard-centric. i've seen some powerful bards in my day.


And it irritates me. I hate the wizard class. Not for its power (which I think it should have). I just hate the style of it.

[Eomir]

Actually, the bard can be an effective tank:

Master of Mockery (feat): perform comedy check=dc to force an enemy to focus all of its attacks on you

blink: 50% miss chance
Mirror image: more miss chance
Alter Self: troglodyte gives +6 natural to AC

[Innis Cabal]

this is the largest group of people i have ever seen in my long career that likes the Bard...its amazing really...i am thinking it has something to do with Elan....

[Ramza00]

Master of Mockery (feat): perform comedy check=dc to force an enemy to focus all of its attacks on you


Where is this feat from, it is located on the wotc feat index, is it third party?

[ocato]

I'm not a big Elan fan. I like him as a joke-source and a person, but he is a negative bard stereotype.

[EvilElitest]

I'm not a big Elan fan. I like him as a joke-source and a person, but he is a negative bard stereotype.

Can't stand Elan, he is just to dumb and not that funny. Wish he got hurt more
from
EE

[jjpickar]

Awwww, I like :elan:. He's participating.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

I love Elan, actually. He may be a few notes short of an air, but he's a loveable sort. I think he's grown too.

My favorite Bard remains Cebo, played by one of my best friends in a game I ran. Cebo played bagpipes. He learned monster languages so he could insult them in graffiti on the walls with the chalk he bought at level 1. The party loved his Bard Song bonuses so much, we called it the "Cebonus". The best moment was when he sang (and actually sang in real life) plot exposition to a pair of Hezrou guards to convince them to allow him and the party past.

Great bard. Stereotypical, perhaps, but well-played.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I don't hate bards. I just don't play them that often. I'm still looking for a chance to play my ideal bard build.

Bard 5/Dirgesinger/Stormsinger. Nuthin' says fear me like a guy who blows a horn and raises the dead while calling down lightening.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've always thought bards were interesting, but my brother would always rankle when anyone proposed playing them. His dislike of bards was solely on the basis that he believed that they were annoying (my brother introduced me to the game, and in the games he played, the DM required the player to actually sing when using bardic music). Later, that belief that they are annoying became a belief that all bards are pansies. I couldn't agree less. While bards do tend to get the short end of the stick in some aspects, I think that they fit the "adventurer" archetype best. (I haven't spoken with my brother for months, since I'm going to college now, but I think his attitude towards bards has softened as we've come to know the game better.) Why do people insist that bards are pansies or should behave effeminately?

[Eomir]

Where is this feat from, it is located on the wotc feat index, is it third party?

I saw it in the feat index at www.crystalkeep.com

it is from the Dragon magazine #333 pg.88

[Fhaolan]

Actually, I'd argue that the versatility of the Bard class can allow for a historian, lawyer, actor, and orator. Though Performance is typically associated with music, I'd be more that willing to grant similar bonuses to a skilled orator who can inspire his companions to victory through a rousing speech. The class itself lends to myriad roles, and what one focuses in skill and ability determines what kind of bard is played. Granted, there are stereotypes that are easy to fall in when playing any class, and the amusing songster is the bard's.

The issue I have with the 3.x version is 'as written' it's all music-based, not generically performance-based. I regularly expand the definition, and easily convince other DMs to expand it to include all forms of performance. I've had dancer-bards, and even a sandpainting-bard. I just find the RAW version of the bard to be annoyingly restrictive due to the music-based assumption made in all the fluff and crunch.

Of course, I play musician-bards as well. The avatar I use, and the user name I use, is a Wolfen Bard (originally from a Paladium game, but he made it into a D&D campaign at one point after a brief stint in GURPS) who's a harpist, storyteller, as well as a sworddancer. He's also the familiar of a dragonette... yep, I do have it the right way round there; long story. Whenever I write a short story, Fhaolan tends to act as narrator.

[Turcano]

The issue I have with the 3.x version is 'as written' it's all music-based, not generically performance-based. I regularly expand the definition, and easily convince other DMs to expand it to include all forms of performance. I've had dancer-bards, and even a sandpainting-bard. I just find the RAW version of the bard to be annoyingly restrictive due to the music-based assumption made in all the fluff and crunch.

Well, it's not music-based so much as sound-based; the RAW allows spoken performance, instrumental music, or a combination thereof, which at least lets one get somewhat away from the sing-at-your-enemies silliness that serves as the stereotype (wow, that's a lot of alliteration).

I could see the dancing working, but the sand-painting, while cool, seems pretty difficult to implement. Would it be just for spellcasting, or for bardic music as well? If it's the latter, how does it work?

[BooBooSpooki]

http://www.rpguides.de/nwn2/images/grobnar_100.jpg

:smallbiggrin:

[ClericofPhwarrr]

I've never really enjoyed the idea of a character who's power is singing... but I'm in the process of making a bard similar to Major Armstrong from Full Metal Alchemist: his means of inspiring the party and fascinating others will come from flaunting his muscles while announcing his own greatness. It definitely won't be optimal, but I just really like the idea of someone saying "How can you disagree with muscles like these? See how powerful and toned they are!" and helping the party at the same time :smallbiggrin:.

Oh, and the bard is one of the only classes that can take advantage of the Charisma-based combat feats. Goad, Daunting Presence, and Frightful Presence can be very useful (and fun), but most fighters have a terrible charisma score and thus a terrible DC for their enemie's saves. A bard can make the DCs meaningful.

[Talya]

Oh, and the bard is one of the only classes that can take advantage of the Charisma-based combat feats. Goad, Daunting Presence, and Frightful Presence can be very useful (and fun), but most fighters have a terrible charisma score and thus a terrible DC for their enemie's saves. A bard can make the DCs meaningful.

But is rather squishy.

I think paladins are the ones most likely to use them.

[BardicDuelist]

See, that is the other thing which I hate about the bard steryotype.

My bards can act, give speaches, or sing and play a lute depending on my mood. Infact, versitile performer helps a lot.
Most military people will tell you that boosting morale is more inportant than nearly anything (except training and being prepared). A fighter who has extra damage for no reason than the fact that I'm giving a speach while flanking and aiding him with my combat expertise and allied defense (boost his armor class and combat prowess) will realize that without that he could be dead.

Also, the party has groaned several times when I said I'd be playing a class which wasn't a jack of all trades (and forced me to make my CLERIC one) simply because I was always relied on for the obsure skill, knowledge, or ability which the party lacked. If I didn't have access to those odd options, they were afraid that we'd be killed. True, we DON'T POWERGAME, but we still are able to take out large threats with our thinking out of the box style of play.

My Chamelon-Master-of-Masks-who-nobody-knows-"his"-gender is an actor who is simply "in a role" most of the time. I think that proves that you don't have to play the steryotypical bard anymore than you would a steryotypical barbarian, ranger, cleric, wizard, etc.

One point which I will agree very much with is that the bard class is one which begs for you to take a prestige class, but so does the fighter and sorcerer, and wizard, and cleric if you can get a full BAB (for fighters) or full casting (for everyone else).

I also think bards are encouraged to be more creative since they don't have the obvious win buttons. I have never seen some low level spells used so well as when somone was playing a bard who has less and weeker spells than every caster.

[Aquillion]

The bard spell list isn't so bad. They get Silence, Dispel Magic, Grease, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Shatter, Haste, Phantom Steed, Slow, Freedom of Movement, Irresistible Dance... you get the idea. Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration can be useful, too.

The key is to remember that you're not a full caster. Bard spells are best used to add to the number of spells / round your party can get off at once when they really, really need it. If you're just running around hasting your allies before, well, it can help, but a full caster could do it better. Whereas dropping a Silence on the enemy wizard in the same round that your wizard seals him in with a Wall of Stone or drops a Forcecage on him can be very effective.

Of course full casters still do better overall, even taking the bard's other abilities into account, but full casters always do better.

[Fhaolan]

I could see the dancing working, but the sand-painting, while cool, seems pretty difficult to implement. Would it be just for spellcasting, or for bardic music as well? If it's the latter, how does it work?

I remember the DM abandoning the campaign only a few sessions in, so I'm not sure it *did* work, to tell the truth. We didn't get to a point where we could test the idea properly, and there were massive houserules that needed playtesting. If I remember correctly, the campaign was more spell-orientated than normal, all the characters being spellcasters of one stripe or another. Her sandpainting would boost other spellcasters as a meditation aid. Cutting preparation time to some extent for everyone preparing spells around the painting, and 'combat' sandpaintings would give +x to overcoming SR or something like that. There was more, but I don't have my notes for that character anymore.

[Thrawn183]

My problem with bards stems from how the games I'm in are run. There is no real penalty for having low Charisma; therefore, out of battle negotiations don't rely on a party face. I step the bard I'm currently playing out of battle and go, "Wait, why is the fighter leading our negotiations again? Oh well, it doesn't really matter." I've basically been relegated to a comic relief character.

[Mellchia]

Thrawn, that's an issue for you to bring up to your DM then...

[Eomir]

Yeah! The DM I played with hated bards so badly that he would make most NPC's unfriendly to my bard, and he wouldn't even let my huge diplomacy skill do a thing about it.

[Draz74]

In my experience, a lot of Bard hate comes from a lack of careful reading of the Bardic Music rules.


Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions). Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellCompletion) (such as scrolls), spell trigger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger) (such as wands), or command word (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#commandWord).

Fascinate, Inspire Competence, and Song of Freedom -- essentially, the non-combat Bardic Musics -- say they require concentration.

By process of elimination, therefore, most of the combat-useful Bardic Musics can be continued even while the bard takes other standard actions, as long as those actions aren't spells, spell completion or trigger magic items, or command word magic items. Note that this might not make much sense, and be prohibited by DM fiat out of common sense, if the Perform skill the bard uses isn't Singing or Oratory. So, pick one of those skills as the Perform skill you focus on!

Then behold: The Bard can start a Song of Courage the first round of combat, Song of Greatness the second round, and then fight for three rounds -- and his songs are still going.

This isn't a huge deal, since the effects of his songs keep going for 5 rounds even once the songs themselves stop. But it's nice. And realizing this will at least keep you from wasting a feat on Lingering Song or the like. :smallwink:

[Ramza00]

I just learn of a GREAT Feat. May I present Doomspeak it is in Champions of Ruin but any bard of any alignment can take it



You can demoralize an enemy with horrible condemnations and grim portents of impending doom.

Prerequisite: Bardic music class feature, Intimidate 8 ranks, Perform 8 ranks.
Benefit: You can spend one of your bardic music uses to utter a string of crass and appalling epithets and curses at one enemy within 120 feet. The intended target must be able to hear and comprehend your damning remarks. A target that fails a Will save (DC 10 + your character level + your Cha modifier) is cursed with a -10 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks for 1 round. This is a supernatural, necromantic effect.

Combine this with an ability to do 2 bardic musics int he same round and you are golden.

It is a high DC since its your character level and not 1/2 it. Thus at lvl20 you will have a DC like this 10+20+10=40 (A cha of 30 assuming 14 starting, 6 item, 5 level ups, 5 wish)

[Fax Celestis]

I just learn of a GREAT Feat. May I present Doomspeak it is in Champions of Ruin but any bard of any alignment can take it



Combine this with an ability to do 2 bardic musics int he same round and you are golden.

It is a high DC since its your character level and not 1/2 it. Thus at lvl20 you will have a DC like this 10+20+10=40 (A cha of 30 assuming 14 starting, 6 item, 5 level ups, 5 wish)

Sweet Jesus tapdancing christ on a bicycle! It's the Bardic Grail!

[Talya]

I'm so taking that feat. Might as well make my 2 bard levels useful.

Of course, that means I need to train some intimidate ranks. Crossclass.

[ocato]

In my experience, a lot of Bard hate comes from a lack of careful reading of the Bardic Music rules.



Fascinate, Inspire Competence, and Song of Freedom -- essentially, the non-combat Bardic Musics -- say they require concentration.

By process of elimination, therefore, most of the combat-useful Bardic Musics can be continued even while the bard takes other standard actions, as long as those actions aren't spells, spell completion or trigger magic items, or command word magic items. Note that this might not make much sense, and be prohibited by DM fiat out of common sense, if the Perform skill the bard uses isn't Singing or Oratory. So, pick one of those skills as the Perform skill you focus on!

Then behold: The Bard can start a Song of Courage the first round of combat, Song of Greatness the second round, and then fight for three rounds -- and his songs are still going.

This isn't a huge deal, since the effects of his songs keep going for 5 rounds even once the songs themselves stop. But it's nice. And realizing this will at least keep you from wasting a feat on Lingering Song or the like. :smallwink:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't know any DMs who would allow a bard to sing multiple songs at once or attack while singing. Given that, Lingering Song is a fine feat and many fine bards take it.

As for the -10 feat... That feat can be gotten as early as L5, so your L6 feat. -10 to attack rolls... saves... guh. That's sick. It's a guarenteed hideous laughter or whatever other CC you want to pop next round is what it is. You say it is in the book Champions of Ruin? Never heard of it.

but...damn.

[Ramza00]

Sweet Jesus tapdancing christ on a bicycle! It's the Bardic Grail!

Thing is it isn't a bard feat. A Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade/Blackguard/Bard save debuffer can use the feat just as well as a full bard.

All bards in gestalt should have this, and more or less all bards in general :smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

but I'm in the process of making a bard similar to Major Armstrong from Full Metal Alchemist: his means of inspiring the party and fascinating others will come from flaunting his muscles while announcing his own greatness. It definitely won't be optimal, but I just really like the idea of someone saying "How can you disagree with muscles like these? See how powerful and toned they are!" and helping the party at the same time .

Armstrong as a bard? well i'm scared for life again

Really though, that is the most brillent idea i've ever heard conserning bards
It is ironic that his musssels work

"Feel the power of the mussels. FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEl"

Armstrong is so funny, and he is good with women

"Havic, all my life, i've dreamed of going out with somebody like exactly like your, except with a more musceld phyic like my brother (armstrong)."
from,
EE

[Ramza00]

Champions of Ruin is a FR supplement, and is a kinda common one for FR besides the supplements for FR that are more common are the campaign setting, Players Guide to Faerun, Lost Empires of Faerun and Unapproachable East. After these books its pretty much the Champion set for FR

Champions of Ruin is like the Book of Vile Darkness flavorwise for FR. Champions of Valor is like the Book of Exalted Deeds flavorwise for FR. (Flavorwise not cheese though). CoR is also special for it has all these good archery things.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/fracc/178720000

[Fax Celestis]

Thing is it isn't a bard feat. A Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade/Blackguard/Bard save debuffer can use the feat just as well as a full bard.

All bards in gestalt should have this, and more or less all bards in general :smalltongue:

Oh, I know. I just wanted to say "Sweet Jesus tapdancing christ on a bicycle."

[Duke Malagigi]

And it irritates me. I hate the wizard class. Not for its power (which I think it should have). I just hate the style of it.

What don't you like about their style? I like my mages to be the arcane equivalent of scientists, which is what I see wizards as. Besides wizards need high (above 11) Intelligence scores to cast their more powerful spells. Sorcerers need Charisma. In my opinion those who study the natural and social sciences deserve that kind of arcane power wizards have. Wizards are the ultimate revenge of the nerds, aren't they? Unfortunately WotC came out with the sorcerer, which ended up cheapening the poor wizard (also known as magic-user in 1st Edition and as mage in 2nd Edition). Traitorous scum, stabbing wizards in the back. Neither Gary Gygax nor even Lorraine Williams would have done that. Mr. Gygax (one of the inventors of original D&D and 1st Edition AD&D) couldn't because he is too noble. Lorraine Williams couldn't because from what I've heard even she wasn't that bad. Now spell memorization that on the other hand, could be shot in the head placed in side a black plastic garbage bag then dumped and buried in an unmarked grave, and I wouldn't shed a tear.

[Townopolis]

The Warchanter has an ability to let you sing 2 songs at once, therefore implying that you can't normally.

Battle Dance, a feat from the PHB2, gives you a bonus to hit while singing. This feat does not state that it allows you to sing and fight simultaneously, but you must do just that in order to use it, therefore implying that you can normally fight and sing at the same time.

Any DM who doesn't let you fight while singing is gypping you. With Haste, you can even spend your extra action to concentrate on a song and fight at the same time.

[Talya]

What don't you like about their style? I like my mages to be the arcane equivalent of scientists, which is what I see wizards as.

That's what I hate. All methodical and planning and scientific and crap. And typically about as charming as nerds, too. I prefer the mystical immortal enchantress who's as charming by her voice as she is by her magic. Intelligence is good, but not to the point of silliness. My 40 point buy sorceress was 10 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 14 int, 10 wis, 18 cha.

I much prefer spellcasting to be based on natural talent, intuition and force of personality than academics.

[Ramza00]

That's what I hate. All methodical and planning and scientific and crap. And typically about as charming as nerds, too. I prefer the mystical immortal enchantress who's as charming by her voice as she is by her magic. Intelligence is good, but not to the point of silliness. My 40 point buy sorceress was 10 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 14 int, 10 wis, 18 cha.

I much prefer spellcasting to be based on natural talent, intuition and force of personality than academics.

Well in my mind a world needs both (unless you make the nerd/sage persona an artificer or something but I find that counterproductive)

The only question is how much of each world is what percent of class/styles (this is world building)

And what you personally like to play :smallwink:

[BardicDuelist]

I just learn of a GREAT Feat. May I present Doomspeak it is in Champions of Ruin but any bard of any alignment can take it

It says that is a "supernatural, necromatic effect." Does that mean that it is not mind affecting, and thus able to affect UNDEAD?

Actually, while I'm sure it will be rectified in eratta, it is not technically a mind affecting effect so long as they are still able to comprehend what you are saying to them.

That makes my Cryano character so much cooler.

It also has two new spells which look very useful for bards: Remorseless Charm which suppresses targets alignment and is permanent, taking all related inhibitions; and Love's Lament, which does 1d6 wisdom damage.

[Duke Malagigi]

Okay, let’s have a truce. I won't knock sorcerers as long as Talya doesn't insult wizards. I'd prefer it though, if she based her sorceress off of Prospero (from Shakespeare's, The Tempest) or give them some genetic component. The Gift of Gab alone can not explain sorcerers, only bards, and they're a special case.

[Ramza00]

It says that is a "supernatural, necromatic effect." Does that mean that it is not mind affecting, and thus able to affect UNDEAD?

Appears so, should work on Undead, Plants, Outsiders... the list goes on the only type/subtype immune to all necromatic effects are Constructs.

Tis is a very good feat :smallbiggrin:

[Talya]

The feat is also wrong. Brokenly wrong.

It's the DC...every other similar effect anywhere that has a similar type of DC is:

10 + character or class level/2 + ability modifier.

This one ends up having a DC 10 points higher than it should.

[Talya]

The Gift of Gab alone can not explain sorcerers, only bards, and they're a special case.

Charisma does not represent "The Gift of Gab," although it does influence it. Charisma as per RAW is sheer force of personality. It's the intellectual equivalent of strength, it is the power to bend and shape the world around you as you see fit, through sheer force of will. Charisma is to Wisdom what Strength is to Constitution. Charisma represents your ability to exert sheer mental force, whereas wisdom is your ability to withstand force exerted on your mind.

(Intelligence is as to Dexterity...the ability to expertly and skillfully manipulate...with intelligence, it's the manipulation of knowledge, with dexterity it's physical manipulation.)

[ocato]

I believe that some minute draconic heritage is considered essential for becoming a sorcerer.

[Talya]

I believe that some minute draconic heritage is considered essential for becoming a sorcerer.

Typically, yes, they often have some trace of magical heritage, although it need not be draconic. Fey, Elemental, Celestial, Fiendish, Draconic, etc. Any would do. It's not a hard and fast rule though. As per the PHB:

"Some sorcerors claim that the blood of dragons courses through their veins. That claim may be true in some cases--it is common knowledge that certain powerful dragons can take humanoid form and even have humanoid lovers, and it's difficult to prove that a given sorceror does not have a dragon ancestor. It's true that sorcerors often have striking good looks, usually with a touch of the exotic that hints at unusual heritage. Others hold the claim that it is either an unsubstantiated boast on the part of certain sorcerors or envious gossip on the part of those who lack the sorceror's gift."

[Goldfish Lord]

I love bards, they're useful as a splash in multiclass, fun time when they're pure. I especially love my Bard/Fighter/Ranger/Assassin character. Lots of fun!!

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Charisma does not represent "The Gift of Gab," although it does influence it. Charisma as per RAW is sheer force of personality. It's the intellectual equivalent of strength, it is the power to bend and shape the world around you as you see fit, through sheer force of will. Charisma is to Wisdom what Strength is to Constitution. Charisma represents your ability to exert sheer mental force, whereas wisdom is your ability to withstand force exerted on your mind.

(Intelligence is as to Dexterity...the ability to expertly and skillfully manipulate...with intelligence, it's the manipulation of knowledge, with dexterity it's physical manipulation.)

Per RAW, it's also your physical attractiveness.

[Talya]

Per RAW, it's also your physical attractiveness.

Yeah. There's too many things wrapped up in Charisma, actually.