A thought exercise: rogue 2/wizard x vs. wizard (x + 2)

[Dr TPK]

I know that the consensus is that a straight wizard is the best, but I'd like to advocate losing two caster levels in favor of two levels of rogue.

A ring of evasion costs 25,000 gp and it's worth it. Evasion increases survivability and magic can't imitate it.
Sometimes you can use your spells to paralyze people, render them unconscious etc. A minor sneak attack doesn't hurt if you manage to get your opponent helpless or deny them their dex bonus to AC. These are both everyday things when you use offensive spells.
Your starting skill points will be awesome if you're a rogue with high int.
If you take the other rogue level a little bit later, your max rank per skill will be (very) high. Your Disable Device can easily jump from 0 to 10 or more. In that way can make your character a very specialized thief.
Rogue and wizard skills complement each other.
Rogue and wizard saves complement each other.
Trapfinding is great. Using wizard/sorcerer magic to find traps is difficult, but disabling them with magic is easy.

P.S. X can be any number you want, but maybe we should avoid epic levels... Therefore X = 1 to 18.

Please be gentle <3

[ryu]

For starters why are you using rogue instead of factotum? They almost do quite literally everything the rogue does but better. Have you not heard of them?

Second off have you considered just how much losing two caster levels hurts on any given level? That amounts to slower access to the best spells, less spells per day, less magic related bonus feats, and weaker effects on the spells you can cast.

Assuming you're fine with dropping as much as two full caster levels have you compared what you get in compensation from rogue levels to the alternative mage prestige classes which end up sacrificing that amount? A lot of those special abilities are incredibly strong.

Keep in mind I'm just asking these questions to figure out how much research you've put into this idea.

[Dr TPK]

For starters why are you using rogue instead of factotum? They almost do quite literally everything the rogue does but better. Have you not heard of them?

Second off have you considered just how much losing two caster levels hurts on any given level? That amounts to slower access to the best spells, less spells per day, less magic related bonus feats, and weaker effects on the spells you can cast.

Assuming you're fine with dropping as much as two full caster levels have you compared what you get in compensation from rogue levels to the alternative mage prestige classes which end up sacrificing that amount? A lot of those special abilities are incredibly strong.

Keep in mind I'm just asking these questions to figure out how much research you've put into this idea.

I know that factotums exist, but I have never bothered to find out more. So yes, I have heard of them.

I have considered how much it hurts, but I think it increases your general survivability in a unique way compared to magic.

I haven't checked the PrCs you have mentioned.

Thank you for asking! :-)

[eggynack]

While those levels can do some stuff for a wizard, whether rogue or factotum, as was mentioned, missing from your comparison is all the insane stuff that a single extra level of spells can accomplish. While the rogue/wizard is dodging fireballs (kinda, given the poor reflex save) and tossing out stinking clouds, the wizard is doing crazy stuff with polymorph. While the rogue/wizard is disabling devices and changing forms, the wizard is changing the structure of the game world with teleport. While the rogue/wizard is dealing some marginally increased damage from sneak attack and teleporting all over the place, the wizard is calling powerful creatures with planar binding. I just don't think there's any comparison between these things.

[ryu]

I know that factotums exist, but I have never bothered to find out more. So yes, I have heard of them.

I have considered how much it hurts, but I think it increases your general survivability in a unique way compared to magic.

I haven't checked the PrCs you have mentioned.

Thank you for asking! :-)

Survivability you say? Evasion and slightly larger hit dice are less impressive than you'd think. For example if all you want is HP on a wizard look at faerie mysteries initiate, necropolitan, or any number of easily available spells for temp HP, meatshields, and even healing if you know where to look. A ring of evasion is cheap, and further isn't that impressive. If you want class or feat options for scary survivability I'd recommend initiate of the sevenfold veil, craft contingent spell, and abrupt jaunt. Those are what a wizard who simply refuses to ever die looks at. They come online at different levels, and there's still much more you can do.

Not trying to be mean. Just showing you things to more efficiently meet your stated goals.

[Xerlith]

The Rogue 2/Wizard x is behind from 5th up until 19th level, when they break more-or-less even.

The first three-four levels are a wash, but 3rd level spells are when the Wizard suddenly leaps miles ahead.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you were looking to include prestige possibilities, but not looking at incantatrix, dweomerkeeper or IotSFV (or [very powerful PrC goes here]), then yeah, rogue adds something to wizard.

The ability to go into Unseen Seer is pretty nice, after all. Rogue 1/wizard X/Unseen Seer 10 is a pretty effective build, due to advanced learning for example. Of course, you lose only 1 caster level, not 2 (and gain 3 for divination spells), and it's 10 prestige class levels. It's probably not a fair comparison, for the purposes of this thread.

[Pluto!]

A level 7 wizard's Polymorph does more than a level 2 Rogue/Level 5 Wizard's extra 5 ranks in Disable Device.

[Gabrosin]

A ring of evasion costs 25,000 gp and it's worth it. Evasion increases survivability and magic can't imitate it.

Magic literally imitates evasion. You mentioned the magic item that does it. If your #1 argument for taking two levels of rogue is something that can be duplicated by a 25k magic item, doesn't that negate your whole point?

If you want a trapfinding wizard with lots of skill points, you should consider a beguiler. With the right path they can be about as flexible and powerful as a normal wizard while filling the rogue role in the party.

[Troacctid]

Ring of Evasion is totally not worth it. 25k is way overpriced. If you want Evasion as a Wizard, you can get it from Divine Oracle without losing any caster levels.

+1d6 sneak attack damage is basically just worse than having your spell deal an extra 2d6 damage because you have +2 CL.

Basically the Rogue 2 dip is terrible. I could maybe see Rogue 1 if you needed sneak attack for Unseen Seer or something.

[Extra Anchovies]

There's also a way to get sneak attack as a single-classed wizard (and thus benefit fully from Arcane Trickster and Unseen Seer), but I forget what it is.

[Rebel7284]

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X is a fairly viable build due to all the sneak attack damage, especially if you like rays. Hunter's Eye via Advanced Learning helps too.

Evasion is overrated. Typically reflex saves just lead to a couple of extra points of damage and wizards have tons of buffs that help with that.
If you still want it, there are tons of ways to get it without losing caster levels.
- Ring of Evasion
- Divine Oracle 2
- Combat Healer 4
- Spelldancer 2 (such metamagic shenanigans too!)
- Open Chakra feat or some such, whichever gives the soulmeld for evasion.

[ryu]

Just as a point of order guys the reason I specifically and repeatedly phrased everything as questions with the most cordial endings I could muster was that calling someone's budding build terrible is an effective way to either make someone stop listening or even avoid the hobby. It's also why I started with options thematically similar to what he was talking about that could help before bringing up the most powerful things. All of this is ideal for someone who seems fairly new, has been completely polite, and specifically asked for a gentle touch.

[SkipSandwich]

To the OP:

How effective splashing 1 or 2 rogue levels on your wizard build will be depends on a few factors, mostly how many extra splatbooks (and thus PrC's like Unseen Seer and the like) are available for your game.

If say limited to just the classes in the player's handbook/DMG then yes, it could be very effective to take 1 rogue level at 1st, then some wizard levels then the 2nd rogue level later (perhaps just in time to qualify for Arcane Trickster). I played a pretty fun build once that splashed Monk levels into an Eldritch Knight build for many of the same reasons you want rogue, evasion, extra skill points, and in the case of monk, bonus feats.

Otherwise, the more books you have, the more you would benefit from either going straight wizard or aiming for a PrC that advances both rogue and caster abilities (of which there are many).

[Dr TPK]

To the OP:

How effective splashing 1 or 2 rogue levels on your wizard build will be depends on a few factors, mostly how many extra splatbooks (and thus PrC's like Unseen Seer and the like) are available for your game.

If say limited to just the classes in the player's handbook/DMG then yes, it could be very effective to take 1 rogue level at 1st, then some wizard levels then the 2nd rogue level later (perhaps just in time to qualify for Arcane Trickster). I played a pretty fun build once that splashed Monk levels into an Eldritch Knight build for many of the same reasons you want rogue, evasion, extra skill points, and in the case of monk, bonus feats.

Otherwise, the more books you have, the more you would benefit from either going straight wizard or aiming for a PrC that advances both rogue and caster abilities (of which there are many).

We use very, very little things out of Core. That means the DM and players. It's pretty much Core with the PCs and monsters (and NPCs). Many of the posters in this thread have offered things that I have never heard of, and I'm 99% sure that neither I nor others in my group will ever bother to find out what they are.

[ryu]

We use very, very little things out of Core. That means the DM and players. It's pretty much Core with the PCs and monsters (and NPCs). Many of the posters in this thread have offered things that I have never heard of, and I'm 99% sure that neither I nor others in my group will ever bother to find out what they are.

That gets rid of a lot of the purely superior rogue substitute class routes, but most anyone on this forum would still argue going straight wizard is still superior for the reasons mentioned in the simple comparison paragraph. Losing caster levels hurts a lot more than losing evasion and HP as those two are far from rogue exclusives even in core.

[Gabrosin]

We use very, very little things out of Core. That means the DM and players. It's pretty much Core with the PCs and monsters (and NPCs). Many of the posters in this thread have offered things that I have never heard of, and I'm 99% sure that neither I nor others in my group will ever bother to find out what they are.

That's fine, but you lose out on a lot of the variety and continued excitement that D&D has to offer. And it makes it even more painful to lose caster levels. A lot of tier 3s and below can be brought up in power level by pulling from other books, to try to get them to approximate the power of the top spellcasting classes. In straight core, a wizard jumps up in power when he hits the level to achieve game-defining spells like haste, slow, polymorph, teleport, flesh to stone, and so on. Slowing that down for any reason means that similarly leveled opposition will have these spells and you won't.

[Username.]

If it's core-only, the rogue is laughably worse. Ignore the fact that the additional 2 levels of wizard deals out far more damage than the multiclass ever could (additional spell slots plus caster level), ignore the higher utility, the greater number of wizard bonus feats (which, while not spectacular, are still more useful than what the rogue has) -- and let's just look at trapfinding.

The best form of trapfinding ever since Tomb of Horrors was first run has been to throw expendable fleshsticks into dangerous rooms. And wizards can summon those. And a wizard with X+2 levels can summon more than a wizard with X levels.

In a practical sense, the rogue is nearly objectively worse than the wizard at defeating traps. When defusing traps, rogue risks a trap blowing up in his face -- the wizard doesn't. When avoiding traps, the rogue can't scout for himself -- the wizard sends out a summoned choad.

On top of that, spells that defray damage >> Evasion, any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Outside of core:



Evasion

• Divine Oracle (Complete Divine, p. 34) grants full casting, a one feat tax PR for entry (Frog God's Fane location can get you that feat for gold), and evasion. No, actually, an improved form of evasion. This evasion is not called evasion, but it is explicitly described as "evasion" in the text, going so far as to describing it as being better than "the evasion ability used by monks and rogues." Whether it can be used as a PR for game assets requiring evasion is debatable, but there is no doubt that it means that Divine Oracle is utterly, utterly superior to Rogue.

• Combat Medic is full-casting and grants evasion -- just plain old evasion -- at level 4. Again, clearly better than a rogue. Get Arcane Disciple: Tamara: Healing Domain for entry.

•*Spelldancer gets full casting and evasion at level 2 if you set 4 feats on fire. I think you can get two of those feats from items, but seriously, come on, two feats is still too much. And yet: still. better. than. the. rogue.



Sneak Attack

Take Martial Study (Any Shadow Hand*) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance). Et voilà: 2d6 sneak attack, permanent and always on, for all your prerequisite needs.

(*Did I mention that Shadow Hand is an amazing escape tool for a caster and can grant abilities that escape grapples? Because it is and it can.)

• Spellwarp Sniper gives you rogue-ish damage with spells. It's . . . not very good. For a wizard. It's better than being a rogue, though.

• Unseen Seer doesn't need Sneak Attack for entry, but its first level increases it. Don't take more than two levels and you get another +1d6 of sneak attack (at first level, so you can just one-level-dip and be on your way!) and, at second level, Silent Spell and an additional divination spell. Second level is good only for diehard sneakers. Still better than rogue.

• Arcane Trickster requires [Assassin's Stance] -- that is, 2d6 Sneak Attack. It's full-casting and advances Sneak Attack. That's better than a rogue in almost every way.

• Imaskari Vengeance Takers lose a level of spellcasting and get poison use and a weak, retargetable favored enemy ability. The spellcasting alone makes it better than rogue; the other two things don't really matter. 3/4 BAB and good Ref, if that floats your boat, though.

In core, evasion is a waste of time for a wizard. Outside of core, the only thing I can think of that Rogue/Evasion does for you is get you into the Magelord class. . . and that class isn't worth it. (Okay, maybe it is with Uncanny Forethought abuse.) And it would be easier to enter with the Shadow Creature Template, which grants Evasion (if you choose), darkvision, low-light vision, cold resistance, total concealment in shadows, and more abilities as HD increases, and has a LA of 2 which can be bought off at many tables. With LA buyoff, that is devastatingly better than two rogue levels. (We're assuming that Divine Oracle doesn't work.)


N.B.: Beguilers aren't just almost-as-good as wizards: at low levels their spell list is higher-op than wizards, and at high levels who cares?

[ericgrau]

I actually think caster levels > all is BS limited only to high op but even I think wizard x + 2 would be better. If you trade away your highest spell level then it should be for something major. Not only a +2, some skills and evasion. More major than that. I wouldn't even consider it until you get 4th level spells, preferably 5th. And even then the 5th/6th level spells are a pretty good boost in your battlefield control options and so on. 6th levels spells aren't that much more special than 5th, at least in core. Again, I'm not one of those CL > all guys. But come on, evasion and skills? It's nice when you use it, but how often is that? I actually think area damage is a huge threat to a party of PCs because it can hit all 4 at once, but even when it's 4x more likely to hit you than other tactics that and skills only come up so often. Your high level spells you can use constantly.

PS I left out the even more rarely used sneak attack die b/c it's a joke.

[Renen]

What do we say to losing caster levels?

[Username.]

I actually think caster levels > all is BS limited only to high op but even I think wizard x + 2 would be better. If you trade away your highest spell level then it should be for something major.

N.B.: You are not merely trading away your highest spell level. You are trading away:


+2 DC to all spells, which is worth more than a feat.

Duration of all of your spells. Again, this is worth more than a feat.

Increased potency of non-save spells. Notably, this includes the Summons line. You're trading extra summonable minions that do more damage than your sneak attack and give your party more effective HP than evade ever could for sneak attack damage you'll never use and evasion that can end up never mattering all campaign.

More spell slots for lesser spells than your maximum level. If a single slot is used for a spell lasting hours/CL, that one spell will likely be more useful than a rogue class ability. And this is for multiple spell levels.

Quicker access into certain PrCs that have higher spellcasting requirements than most, as well as feat qualifications. For comparison, look at the Reserve Feats. Is permanent at-will teleportation or lightning blasts worth as much as two levels of rogue? Well, um, no. And when you can get those two levels of rogue by taking full-casting PrCs and feats, it becomes even harder to justify.

. . . And you are trading away your highest spell level. That too.

There may be things that are worth a caster level loss. But two levels of rogue aren't one of them.

[Aliek]

Not to take away from your points above, but how is he losing 2 DCs?

[Lerondiel]

The Rogue 2/Wizard x is behind from 5th up until 19th level, when they break more-or-less even.

The first three-four levels are a wash, but 3rd level spells are when the Wizard suddenly leaps miles ahead.

There's the answer in two very tidy sentences.

[ShaneMRoth]

This is a playable option. Particularly if you are sticking with the Core Rules. Not optimal perhaps, but a playable option.

I consider the ability to find traps with a higher DC than 20 and the ability to disarm them to offer substantial advantages over having a summoned creature set the trap off.

The ability to find a trap and disarm it implies the ability to infiltrate a place without drawing attention to yourself.

It is also a very good concept, like a Wizard Private Detective.


*Saxophone music plays in the background*

It was a hot night in the Free City of Greyhawk...

Hotter than a salamander's pitchfork after giving an efreet a prostate exam .....

The name's Gedermain. L. Ed Gedermain. (...shut up...)

Wizard Private Eye.

I solve mysteries that the coppers in the city watch can't crack.

(Mysteries like why a ten pound iron pot is worth 5 silver pieces when the iron itself is worth 10 silver pieces. I mean seriously... what's up with that?)

But, I digress.

Then, she walked in.

Or actually, she floated in.

As Beholders go, she was a looker...

[Dr TPK]

*Saxophone music plays in the background*

It was a hot night in the Free City of Greyhawk...

Hotter than a salamander's pitchfork after giving an efreet a prostate exam .....

The name's Gedermain. L. Ed Gedermain. (...shut up...)

Wizard Private Eye.

I solve mysteries that the coppers in the city watch can't crack.

(Mysteries like why a ten pound iron pot is worth 5 silver pieces when the iron itself is worth 10 silver pieces. I mean seriously... what's up with that?)

But, I digress.

Then, she walked in.

Or actually, she floated in.

As Beholders go, she was a looker...

This alone was worth making the thread :D

[The Glyphstone]

"And don't ask me how I knew the beholder was female. It's a long story and you really don't want me to reach the end of it."

[gooddragon1]

This is a playable option. Particularly if you are sticking with the Core Rules. Not optimal perhaps, but a playable option.

I consider the ability to find traps with a higher DC than 20 and the ability to disarm them to offer substantial advantages over having a summoned creature set the trap off.

The ability to find a trap and disarm it implies the ability to infiltrate a place without drawing attention to yourself.

It is also a very good concept, like a Wizard Private Detective.


*Saxophone music plays in the background*

It was a hot night in the Free City of Greyhawk...

Hotter than a salamander's pitchfork after giving an efreet a prostate exam .....

The name's Gedermain. L. Ed Gedermain. (...shut up...)

Wizard Private Eye.

I solve mysteries that the coppers in the city watch can't crack.

(Mysteries like why a ten pound iron pot is worth 5 silver pieces when the iron itself is worth 10 silver pieces. I mean seriously... what's up with that?)

But, I digress.

Then, she walked in.

Or actually, she floated in.

As Beholders go, she was a looker...

The beginnings of a fan fiction I'd consider reading. Which is interesting given that I've never really read fan fiction.

[Jormengand]

You could always go rogue 1/somethingelsethatgivesyousneakattack 1/wizard 5/arcane trickster 10/wizard 3.

And for Boccob's sake take Practiced Spellcaster and a few +spells/day items so you don't have to listen to the "No losing caster levels!" routine. It's a game; go have fun already.

[ericgrau]

It wouldn't be the end of the world if you played one but you would be losing a lot. Yes if it's fun go for it.

If I ever get the time to DM I have a house rule (adapted from someone who I forget, sorry) that would basically make a rogue 2 / wizard x cast as a wizard (x + 1). That could be good if it's not high op, and fair I think.

[eggynack]

And for Boccob's sake take Practiced Spellcaster and a few +spells/day items so you don't have to listen to the "No losing caster levels!" routine. It's a game; go have fun already.
That only really helps with the less impactful problems with ditching caster levels. They're important, sure, but the real issue is that your theoretical full wizard self is going to be altering self two levels before you, teleporting two levels before you, shapechanging two levels before you, and so on. Besides, while practiced spellcaster is an option not available to full wizards, spells/day items aren't. Therefore, the full wizard is getting the same or greater value out of that gold. Ditching a feat also doesn't sound great. As for this being a game of fun qualities, this is explicitly a thought experiment seeking out input on which version of this character is more powerful. Fun does not especially apply.

[Username.]

The "have fun" jibe is also (besides being slightly obnoxious, since it implies that anyone who plays a full caster hates fun) rather fallacious. The implication is that getting rogue abilities = fun. I can buy that. The problem is that you can get those rogue abilities without losing any wizard abilities, as described above. You're down 0.5 BAB and have switched Reflex saves for Will, but both of those things are insignificant since a single (!!) level of spellcasting improvement can provide numerical bonuses greater than what's lost. So the problem is that the Evasion and Sneak Attack are all otherwise obtainable. That's a mighty-big design flaw, but there it is.

So if fun = "sneak attack + evasion," no worries: wizard can get those.

The only reason to take rogue as a wizard outside of core is for the fun of writing "rogue" at the top of your character sheet. . . which is what motivates (I'd guess) 95% of situations like this (98.7% in PF).

In core, one should ask why the rogue is fun. Straight wizard can get more damage in melee than two levels of rogue can provide with sneak attack. It can also create situations where sneak attack kicks in more than a wizard two levels behind (though it can't easily get sneak attack outside of core -- that's true). Evade can end up never mattering, socially or mechanically, in a whole campaign. Not terribly fun.

Rogue 2 just isn't that game-changing. A Fighter dip for a feat can be a much bigger deal than Rogue 2.

[Jormengand]

The "have fun" jibe is also (besides being slightly obnoxious, since it implies that anyone who plays a full caster hates fun)
It does no such thing.

rather fallacious. The implication is that getting rogue abilities = fun. I can buy that. The problem is that you can get those rogue abilities without losing any wizard abilities, as described above. You're down 0.5 BAB and have switched Reflex saves for Will, but both of those things are insignificant since a single (!!) level of spellcasting improvement can provide numerical bonuses greater than what's lost. So the problem is that the Evasion and Sneak Attack are all otherwise obtainable. That's a mighty-big design flaw, but there it is.

So if fun = "sneak attack + evasion," no worries: wizard can get those.

The only reason to take rogue as a wizard outside of core is for the fun of writing "rogue" at the top of your character sheet. . . which is what motivates (I'd guess) 95% of situations like this (98.7% in PF).

In core, one should ask why the rogue is fun. Straight wizard can get more damage in melee than two levels of rogue can provide with sneak attack. It can also create situations where sneak attack kicks in more than a wizard two levels behind (though it can't easily get sneak attack outside of core -- that's true). Evade can end up never mattering, socially or mechanically, in a whole campaign. Not terribly fun.

Rogue 2 just isn't that game-changing. A Fighter dip for a feat can be a much bigger deal than Rogue 2.

You also, if you do what I actually suggested, get all the AT abilities. So you can keep sneaking when your spells run out, as well.

[Story]

If you want all day abilities, why not dip a class that actually gives you all day abilities? Beguiler, Binder, Warlock, Incarnate, Totemist, Crusader, Warblade, Swordsage etc. Rogue 2 barely gives you anything.

[Endarire]

If you really want to go the Evasion route, get a Ring of Evasion and the feat Insightful Reflexes which lets you use your INT modifier instead of your DEX modifier on all Reflex saves.