MAD melee challenge

[Spacehamster]

Hey playground!
You guys and gals seem to always know anything inside and out so I got a challenge, as some have seen I have been posting many build ideas lately but always got suggested to go for a single class instead, thing is I rolled crazy good stats so would like to utilize them. So it goes as follows:

Any race allowed, it has to be a MAD build and mainly focus on strong melee damage, skills and some utility casting is optional. Preferably want at least 4 ASI/feats. As always go wild. :)

[Ralanr]

Knowing the stats would be helpful.

For utility casting I'd recommend paladin, ranger, arcane trickster, or Eldrich knight. I'd also recommend totem barbarian but that's only rituals.

Race: Dragonborn.
Why: Cause I like them.

[Millface]

Straight class melee with good stats...

Paladin all the way. If you can get 18-20 in STR and CHA with 16 in CON you're gonna have a good time.

Crazy Saves for you and the party, SMITES!!!!! for awesome damage and heals for utility. Very potent all around badass.

If you want to go more on the caster route Tempest Cleric has caught my eye recently. Great weapon fighting and plate armor mixed with reaction lightning damage when you get hit is awesome when paired with Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians.

At level 5 that guy is doing 4d6 + 4d8 + 8 in a round where he gets hit, and 3d8 of that is an AoE that ticks every round on everything around you. It's a true beast when it comes to jumping in the middle of the fight and wrecking faces. If you're starting @1 variant human for Heavy Armor Master is really good. Damage reduction 3 seems small, but before level 5 it's excellent, plus you get a point in STR for it.

[Spacehamster]

Stats is 18, 18, 17, 16, 16 and 14 and yes I do have witnesses and we used quite roll friendly method of roll 4, reroll 1´s and remove lowest. :)
Not interested in single class play cause would feel as a waste, two class at least with odd combinations since the stats can afford it. :)

[Ralanr]

Stats is 18, 18, 17, 16, 16 and 14 and yes I do have witnesses and we used quite roll friendly method of roll 4, reroll 1´s and remove lowest. :)

Dragonborn paladin. 20 Str, 18 cha, 18 con, 16 dex, 16 wis, 14 int.

[Spacehamster]

Dragonborn paladin. 20 Str, 18 cha, 18 con, 16 dex, 16 wis, 14 int.

As I said its multiclassing im after since the stats can support all sorts of odd combos. :)

[Orbis Orboros]

I've wanted to do a multiclass of Monk and Barbarian for a "Drunken Master" vibe by re-fluffing Rages as when you imbibe your liquor. I've never done so because you can't wear armor for Martial Arts (which means Dex for AC) and rage only buffs Strength-based melee attacks. You wouldn't have this problem, however...

[Ralanr]

As I said its multiclassing im after since the stats can support all sorts of odd combos. :)

My apologies.
Half-Orc barbarian, paladin, and fighter (champ?).
Good unarmored AC. I'm AFB so I can't remember class specifics.

I'd recommend fiend barblock but warlock don't have much utility for me (4 casts per short rest. I'm sure people can point out utility)

[Millface]

As I said its multiclassing im after since the stats can support all sorts of odd combos. :)

1. BarbLock.

Totem Barbarian 3/Blade Warlock X

Resistance to all damage 3 encounters a short rest (So, almost all the time) plus Armor of Agythys that lasts twice as long, Fireshield, Hex. It's good man. Ralanr made it, he can go into more detail.

2. SwashBarian

If Unearthed Arcana stuff is ok at your table Swashbuckler/Barbarian is really good too. Sneak attacks guaranteed, with unarmored defense and a shield you're working with 22 AC more often than not. Oddly enough it's a Dex build. You don't rage for the damage, you rage for the resistances. 20 CON and half damage from all sources means you're fighting forever.

3. Paladin 6/Sorcerer X

Abuse that Charisma. Heavy armor and Shield, your high stats allow War Caster to be taken early. Opportunity Attack Spells, Reaction Spells, Quickened Spells, Powerful Cantrips, tons of SMITES!!!! Favored Soul is even better, if allowed, but not necessary. Great Saves.

4. Divine Retribution

Warlock 2/Paladin 3/Sorcerer X

Fewer ASI's, but you don't need them as much with those stats. They hit you, AoA, Fireshield, Hellish Rebuke hits them, then you go and Quicken a CHA boosted Eldritch blast then hit them hard with two 5D8 smites. @10 it's 2d6+12d8+5D10+35 damage in a full combat round.

[Ralanr]

Oh barbarian 3/warlock 17. My greatest creation that I have yet to fully test.

Fiend lock, level 10 ability choose resist psychic. On top of AoA you want fire shield (this is action costing since fire shield lasts 10 min). And a greatsword.

Downsides: temp hit points from seperate sources don't stack, but the DM can change that. Need at least 2 actions before rage into fight.

Upsides: danger sense, reckless attack, foresight mystic arcanum. I'd grab a 8th slot AoA

Sadly AoA lasts an hour, so it runs out after a normal short rest. Taking three levels in sorcerer and grabbing extended spell could fix this, but you lose level 9 mystic arcanum. You decide if that's worth it.

[Spacehamster]

Cool ideas all thx. :) Sucks that we are doing neutral and good alignment only (my own call sadly lol) else I would go lvl 7 Oathbreaker lvl 13 Necromancer and
play a death warlord. :)

[Ralanr]

Cool ideas all thx. :) Sucks that we are doing neutral and good alignment only (my own call sadly lol) else I would go lvl 7 Oathbreaker lvl 13 Necromancer and
play a death warlord. :)

Necromancer and fiend can work for neutral (still trying to figure out a way for fiend).

No idea on oathbreaker

[Millface]

Necromancer and fiend can work for neutral (still trying to figure out a way for fiend).

No idea on oathbreaker

In the forgotten realms books one of the newer main characters is a Good Fiendlock, it can be alot of fun if your DM actually roleplays the fiend. I have a warlock at my table and his fiend has been a major player in the campaign so far. The fight for him to resist full on temptation and turn evil has been some truly interesting stuff. I'm currently playing a NG Necromancer when I'm not DMing, definitely possible.

Oathbreaker? If I were DMing I'd allow it as Neutral but you'd need a really good back story for why you have all these undead if you weren't planning something pretty sinister.

[Spacehamster]

In the forgotten realms books one of the newer main characters is a Good Fiendlock, it can be alot of fun if your DM actually roleplays the fiend. I have a warlock at my table and his fiend has been a major player in the campaign so far. The fight for him to resist full on temptation and turn evil has been some truly interesting stuff. I'm currently playing a NG Necromancer when I'm not DMing, definitely possible.

Oathbreaker? If I were DMing I'd allow it as Neutral but you'd need a really good back story for why you have all these undead if you weren't planning something pretty sinister.

The whole no evil thing comes from that I know that certain players in the group would see evil as murderhoboing, I am dm up until we hit lvl 6 then one of the players will run an adventure
so I need a lvl 6 char, know I could np run a Lawful evil oathbreaker/necromancer and have most of my evil to simply be a greedy powerhungry bastard but not just send my undead hordes on random villages just cause I can so might ask my other players if they are okay with me playing said character. Cause would be an awesome concept to play a towering guy with pitch black full plate flanked by a couple of skeletons and zombies, but when in town I cast an illusion spell on me to look like I have a shiny silver armor and look just like a normal knight/pally. :) Mechanically a 7 oathbreaker 13 necromancer would create a powerful minion commander, minions will get + hp per necromancer level, + my proficiency level to dmg, + CHA modifier to damage. :) Could also take inspiering leader feat for even more hp for party members or minions

[Millface]

The whole no evil thing comes from that I know that certain players in the group would see evil as murderhoboing, I am dm up until we hit lvl 6 then one of the players will run an adventure
so I need a lvl 6 char, know I could np run a Lawful evil oathbreaker/necromancer and have most of my evil to simply be a greedy powerhungry bastard but not just send my undead hordes on random villages just cause I can so might ask my other players if they are okay with me playing said character. Cause would be an awesome concept to play a towering guy with pitch black full plate flanked by a couple of skeletons and zombies, but when in town I cast an illusion spell on me to look like I have a shiny silver armor and look just like a normal knight/pally. :) Mechanically a 7 oathbreaker 13 necromancer would create a powerful minion commander, minions will get + hp per necromancer level, + my proficiency level to dmg, + CHA modifier to damage. :) Could also take inspiering leader feat for even more hp for party members or minions

no doubt it's good. It sucks you can't have go 6/14 instead so you get Control Undead from Necromancer AND from Oathbreaker. Having a couple Mummy Lord generals would be awesome.

[Spacehamster]

no doubt it's good. It sucks you can't have go 6/14 instead so you get Control Undead from Necromancer AND from Oathbreaker. Having a couple Mummy Lord generals would be awesome.

Yeah and other drawback is that the full set of perks takes quite a few levels to achieve, lvl 13 it has access to it all.

At which point your zombies and skellies have +6 hp, +10 damage +5 to all saves if you are close enough, and +18 temp hp from inspiering leader if I pick that up.

[Ralanr]

I envisioned black plate with my barblock build at first. Probably because I was going to do fighter instead.
But everyone took a fighter dip.

[DemonSlayer6]

thing is I rolled crazy good stats so would like to utilize them.
Just...No. I'm not a fan of "rolling" for stats, exactly because of this. How is it balanced if you are better at X than someone who specializes in X?

Now, as to your desires...Strong melee damage would be a STR-based class. Diverse skills would be Rogue or Bard. Utility Casting would be Cleric of Bard.

One possibility would be to multiclass as a Rogue/Bard.

Point-buy: 14 CHA, 15 DEX, any ability (preferably CON unless you go Arcane Tricksrer) at 13, the remaining at 10.
Half-Elf: Charisma +2 Dexterity +1, and the 13-score ability at +1; any two skill proficiencies.
You want to eventually be Bard 1/Rogue 1. At a minimum, this gives thieves' tools, a musical instrument, Dexterity saving throw proficiency, and 4 class-proficient skills. Whether you begin as Bard (Charisma saving-throw proficiency) or Rogue (5 class-proficient skills) depends on what you want to be proficient in (Bard 1 allows any 3 skills, Rogue 1 allows 4 of the limited list). You also get Expertise (double proficiency in two skills, or one skill and thieves' tools) and the ability to Sneak Attack.
You then want to get to Bard 4/Rogue 1. This grants Jack of All Trades (half proficiency bonus to non-proficient ability/skill checks), Expertise (only applicable to skills), and an Ability Score improvement; the best choices are CHA+2/DEX+2, Dual-Wielder (so you can dual-wield rapiers), Lucky, Mobile, Resilient (preferably CON), and/or War-Caster. If you really wanted, you could also take "Skilled", but it might not be that useful when you already have 6 or 7 skill proficiencies (5 or 6 of which you'll be an expert in anyway).
Of course, a Lore Bard gets 3 additional skill proficiencies. So that's at least 9 of 18 proficiencies before you take an ASI. Though if the focus is melee, then you want Valor Bard (and then equip a breastplate when you can).


At this, you might want to go to Bard 4/Rogue 4 to catch up to your second ability score increase. But you could also go Bard 8/Rogue 1 instead to get to the second ASI only a little late; this is good for Valor Bards because you could then get 3 attacks per turn (main, second main, and offhand). Adding "sneak attack" when possible and you would be slaying things left and right.

[Millface]

Just...No. I'm not a fan of "rolling" for stats, exactly because of this. How is it balanced if you are better at X than someone who specializes in X?

Now, as to your desires...Strong melee damage would be a STR-based class. Diverse skills would be Rogue or Bard. Utility Casting would be Cleric of Bard.

One possibility would be to multiclass as a Rogue/Bard.

Point-buy: 14 CHA, 15 DEX, any ability (preferably CON unless you go Arcane Tricksrer) at 13, the remaining at 10.
Half-Elf: Charisma +2 Dexterity +1, and the 13-score ability at +1; any two skill proficiencies.
You want to eventually be Bard 1/Rogue 1. At a minimum, this gives thieves' tools, a musical instrument, Dexterity saving throw proficiency, and 4 class-proficient skills. Whether you begin as Bard (Charisma saving-throw proficiency) or Rogue (5 class-proficient skills) depends on what you want to be proficient in (Bard 1 allows any 3 skills, Rogue 1 allows 4 of the limited list). You also get Expertise (double proficiency in two skills, or one skill and thieves' tools) and the ability to Sneak Attack.
You then want to get to Bard 4/Rogue 1. This grants Jack of All Trades (half proficiency bonus to non-proficient ability/skill checks), Expertise (only applicable to skills), and an Ability Score improvement; the best choices are CHA+2/DEX+2, Dual-Wielder (so you can dual-wield rapiers), Lucky, Mobile, Resilient (preferably CON), and/or War-Caster. If you really wanted, you could also take "Skilled", but it might not be that useful when you already have 6 or 7 skill proficiencies (5 or 6 of which you'll be an expert in anyway).
Of course, a Lore Bard gets 3 additional skill proficiencies. So that's at least 9 of 18 proficiencies before you take an ASI. Though if the focus is melee, then you want Valor Bard (and then equip a breastplate when you can).


At this, you might want to go to Bard 4/Rogue 4 to catch up to your second ability score increase. But you could also go Bard 8/Rogue 1 instead to get to the second ASI only a little late; this is good for Valor Bards because you could then get 3 attacks per turn (main, second main, and offhand). Adding "sneak attack" when possible and you would be slaying things left and right.

I get where you're coming from, because I agree that it kind of ruins things when you allow stat blocks that high from level 1, but none of what you said is going to be helpful because he's not going to just go point buy because you don't like rolling for stats. If his DM is allowing it he's going to do it.

Also he wants a damage build and you just gave him a skill build. Sure, if you maximize sneak attacks it'll have ok damage, but cutting off higher level spells for sneak damage isn't really good. Bard 8 Rogue 1 deals, at 3 attacks with 20 dex and your sneak every round... 3d8+1d6+10. By far and away the worst average damage of every build suggested so far. "slaying things left and right" is far from the truth here.

[Naanomi]

Melee with big stats? Oathbreaker/Bladelock based polearm mastery; strength plus 2Xcharisma to damage in addition to smite?

[djreynolds]

If not paladin warlock. How about monk 14 /paladin 6. Very tanky mage killer

[Naanomi]

Monk/paladin will have the best saves imaginable!

[Mjolnirbear]

Ive been a fan of point buy since they invented it. Until this edition.

If you don't play a MAD character it's still fine. But a paladin or monk? They spend most of their ASIs on stats and get maybe one feat.

So this current game i asked to roll. Now my paladin can afford feats.

I would have dearly loved if ASIs had not been tied to feats. It makes it less fair to roll. But a SAD character can get three feats no problem. A mad character has much less choice.

[Spacehamster]

Monk/paladin will have the best saves imaginable!

Monk paladin save combos come online at lvl 20 sadly so that part of the build would prob never get to use. :(

[Spacehamster]

Ive been a fan of point buy since they invented it. Until this edition.

If you don't play a MAD character it's still fine. But a paladin or monk? They spend most of their ASIs on stats and get maybe one feat.

So this current game i asked to roll. Now my paladin can afford feats.

I would have dearly loved if ASIs had not been tied to feats. It makes it less fair to roll. But a SAD character can get three feats no problem. A mad character has much less choice.

All feats should give +1 to a fitting ability score. :)

[djreynolds]

4 battlemaster, 3 assassin. 11 paladin Dual daggers grab martial adept before battlemaster levels and get 5 superiority die, auto crit.

Or go paladin barbarian and make THOR

[DemonSlayer6]

Then let's use the stated stat rolls:
18, 18, 17, 16, 16 and 14.

Charisma: 18. Half-Elf boosts to 20.
Dexterity: 18. Half-Elf boosts to 19.
Constitution: 17, Half-Elf boosts to 18.
Strength: 16.
Wisdom 16.
Intelligence 14.

Half-Elf: Any two skills.
Bard 1: Any three skills, dual-wield shortswords (light and finesse) (+6 to hit, 1d6+4; +4 to hit, 1d6). Leather Armor (AC 15).
Bard 1/Rogue 1: An additional skill, sneak attack (+1d6 damage if enemy is adjacent to one of your allies).
Bard 4/Rogue 1: Valor Bard, Dex to 20 (AC 16).
Bard 6/Rogue 1: Multi-attack. This leads to potential 3d8+1d6+10, as stated. BUT a pure fighter with a shield would be doing 2d10+10 and a Heavy Weapon user would be doing 4d6+10.

What ranges do these correspond to?
Bard/Rogue: 14 to 40 damage.
Sword/Shield: 12 to 30 damage.
Great-Weapon User: 14 to 34 damage.

Sure the Great-Weapon User might get 44 damage with Great Weapon Master, but at that point that 4 damage differential isn't too much of a concern; especially if it comes at a -5 to hit.

Bard 8/Rogue 1 would compare similarly to a Fighter 9 in terms of melee.

-----

Also note that I end there, because there's many possibilities that could go on.

Continue as a Bard, to get more-powerful spells.
Continue as a Rogue to increase Sneak Attack, with it necessary to state that sneak attack can be added to an attack if you have an ally next to your target and not solely when you have advantage.
Add Barbarian, and use Rage to increase damage output (although this sadly maxes at +9 over the complete three-swing attack).


So a Bard 8/Rogue 12 has a Sneak Attack of +6d6. This gives a final damage of 3d8+6d6+10. This is a range of 19 to 70 damage.
A shielded Fighter 20 has 4 attacks per turn, for 4d8+20. This is a range of 24 to 52 damage.
A Great Weapon Fighter 20 could get 8d6+20+10 if they use GWM. This is a range of 38 to 78.

If you are really reckless, you might elect to take a Paladin 15/Fighter 5. Then you can get multiattack to do 2d8+10, with potentially 10d8 additional damage (5d8 per attack, two attacks, ergo 10d8 total damage). But doing this blows your spell-slots very quickly: you can only use the 5d8 smite twice at Paladin 15, so maximum-smiting on a double-hit (i.e. 2d8+10d8+10 damage) is only usable once per day. A better tactic would be 2d8+(4 to 6)d8+10, splitting lower-level smites between your attacks. But this would get a typical range of 18 to 74 damage, not very impressive against the consistently-dealt damage of the Bard 8/Rogue 12.

-----

Of course this lacks higher-level spell power. But it gives a solid melee damage output (which is what he wanted, so you yourself criticize me for ignoring) on par with a max single-classed fighter (whose purpose is lots and lots of melee damage output) and gives excellent versatility outside of combat due to Expertise in 6 skills, half proficiency to non-proficient skills, and a few proficient-but-not-expert skills. Although since grapple checks are made using the Athletics skill and Initiative is an ability check, even this outside-of-combat versatility could come into play during combat.

Plus, with an ASI/feat you can easily take the "Savage Attack" feat to up your 1d8+6d6+5 damage a good bit. Of course other classes can take it as well (that's the point of feats), but still this minimizes the impact of low-damage sneak attacks (another of your criticisms to the build not being focused on dealing melee damage).

Consistently-significant damage output, some respectable spells (including Greater Invisibility...because that will never be useful for a rogue), and a positively-sweet status with your proficient skills.

[Millface]

Then let's use the stated stat rolls:
18, 18, 17, 16, 16 and 14.

Charisma: 18. Half-Elf boosts to 20.
Dexterity: 18. Half-Elf boosts to 19.
Constitution: 17, Half-Elf boosts to 18.
Strength: 16.
Wisdom 16.
Intelligence 14.

Half-Elf: Any two skills.
Bard 1: Any three skills, dual-wield shortswords (light and finesse) (+6 to hit, 1d6+4; +4 to hit, 1d6). Leather Armor (AC 15).
Bard 1/Rogue 1: An additional skill, sneak attack (+1d6 damage if enemy is adjacent to one of your allies).
Bard 4/Rogue 1: Valor Bard, Dex to 20 (AC 16).
Bard 6/Rogue 1: Multi-attack. This leads to potential 3d8+1d6+10, as stated. BUT a pure fighter with a shield would be doing 2d10+10 and a Heavy Weapon user would be doing 4d6+10.

What ranges do these correspond to?
Bard/Rogue: 14 to 40 damage.
Sword/Shield: 12 to 30 damage.
Great-Weapon User: 14 to 34 damage.

Sure the Great-Weapon User might get 44 damage with Great Weapon Master, but at that point that 4 damage differential isn't too much of a concern; especially if it comes at a -5 to hit.

Bard 8/Rogue 1 would compare similarly to a Fighter 9 in terms of melee.

-----

Also note that I end there, because there's many possibilities that could go on.

Continue as a Bard, to get more-powerful spells.
Continue as a Rogue to increase Sneak Attack, with it necessary to state that sneak attack can be added to an attack if you have an ally next to your target and not solely when you have advantage.
Add Barbarian, and use Rage to increase damage output (although this sadly maxes at +9 over the complete three-swing attack).


So a Bard 8/Rogue 12 has a Sneak Attack of +6d6. This gives a final damage of 3d8+6d6+10. This is a range of 19 to 70 damage.
A shielded Fighter 20 has 4 attacks per turn, for 4d8+20. This is a range of 24 to 52 damage.
A Great Weapon Fighter 20 could get 8d6+20+10 if they use GWM. This is a range of 38 to 78.

If you are really reckless, you might elect to take a Paladin 15/Fighter 5. Then you can get multiattack to do 2d8+10, with potentially 10d8 additional damage (5d8 per attack, two attacks, ergo 10d8 total damage). But doing this blows your spell-slots very quickly: you can only use the 5d8 smite twice at Paladin 15, so maximum-smiting on a double-hit (i.e. 2d8+10d8+10 damage) is only usable once per day. A better tactic would be 2d8+(4 to 6)d8+10, splitting lower-level smites between your attacks. But this would get a typical range of 18 to 74 damage, not very impressive against the consistently-dealt damage of the Bard 8/Rogue 12.

-----

Of course this lacks higher-level spell power. But it gives a solid melee damage output (which is what he wanted, so you yourself criticize me for ignoring) on par with a max single-classed fighter (whose purpose is lots and lots of melee damage output) and gives excellent versatility outside of combat due to Expertise in 6 skills, half proficiency to non-proficient skills, and a few proficient-but-not-expert skills. Although since grapple checks are made using the Athletics skill and Initiative is an ability check, even this outside-of-combat versatility could come into play during combat.

Plus, with an ASI/feat you can easily take the "Savage Attack" feat to up your 1d8+6d6+5 damage a good bit. Of course other classes can take it as well (that's the point of feats), but still this minimizes the impact of low-damage sneak attacks (another of your criticisms to the build not being focused on dealing melee damage).

Consistently-significant damage output, some respectable spells (including Greater Invisibility...because that will never be useful for a rogue), and a positively-sweet status with your proficient skills.

Not saying that it isn't viable, but a clever class combo that prioritizes damage it is not.

Average damage @10 is somewhere around 25. Every build posted on here other than this one is 40+ with bursts up to over 100. He wants a multiclassed damage combo, coming up with a multiclass that makes little sense (why bard if you're forgoing most of the spellcasting and not abusing the spell slots for something like Paladin smites?) and only matches the damage of an even level fighter (falls behind badly after lvl 11 when fighter gets another attack) is not really helpful.

I'm not trying to sound mean, this is viable, but in the realm of clever multiclassing builds its just bad, the only way it has any synergy is in skills, you would certainly be succeeding at a bunch of skill checks, but that's not why we're in this thread. You mention the paladin burning through slots quickly, that's why most paladin builds only go to 6 and then run some casting class from there.

For damage the straight fighter would also be using a polearm with polearm mastery and GWM. So the damage is 2d10+1d4+45 (48-69) Consider the -5 to be a 25% additional miss chance, so drop 25% from that damage and you still get 36-52 instead of 14-40. Add in the increased likelihood of opportunity attacks and the gap grows.

[Spacehamster]

Think Ill go with the 7/13 oathbreaker/necromancer or 8/12 if I feel like wanting a feat more. Question is go for lvl 1 paladin first for heavy armor which feels important for a "dark lord" type of character and then 6 straight wizard to get the necro boost to undeads and live off minions and spells until I get my 2nd attack. Or go straight to lvl 7 oathbreaker and pick up wizard after that?

[Millface]

Think Ill go with the 7/13 oathbreaker/necromancer or 8/12 if I feel like wanting a feat more. Question is go for lvl 1 paladin first for heavy armor which feels important for a "dark lord" type of character and then 6 straight wizard to get the necro boost to undeads and live off minions and spells until I get my 2nd attack. Or go straight to lvl 7 oathbreaker and pick up wizard after that?

First... 7th level spells > a feat. Second, if you start paladin you are level 11 before you get animate dead. Yuck. But if you want to melee at all with this build you'll need STR or DEX, CHA, AND INT to be high. Your stats being high, and the build not needing feats really, should help with that. CHA and INT would be my 20s, for more potent spells and minions.

For it not to suck while leveling you'd honestly have to go wizard to at least 5 for animate dead, then you could take paladin to 7 for huge buffs to your minions, then finish out wizard. (pick up as close to your CR as possible minion with command undead from paladin)

[Citan]

Hey playground!
Any race allowed, it has to be a MAD build and mainly focus on strong melee damage, skills and some utility casting is optional. Preferably want at least 4 ASI/feats. As always go wild. :)
Hey! :) Thanks for opening this thread, I love MAD and mad builds!


1. The Indomitable
Paladin/Monk (STR/DEX/CHA/WIS, 4 on 6 o/): Open Hand Monk 14 / Devotion Paladin 6. Sure, it's best at lvl 20, but comes online fast : Paladin 3 / Monk 5 (any Way): you can now smite enemies with your fists 3 times/turn AND try to stun them if needed (also, Fangs of Fire Snake can be fun: stun enemies dispersed in a 15 feet radius area).
At lvl 20 you're very strong in tanking/stunning, but not good at damage though.

For a Damage-oriented build go Vengeance Paladin 11 / Monk 9 (you trade +5 to attack rolls for Haste/Hunter Mark and advantage on a single enemy).
Expected efficency on "normal" turn (only basic attacks and Haste):
- Two-handed Heavy (Glaive) (Extra Attack + Haste): (1d10+5STR+10gwm)*3
- Haste: 1d10+5str+10gwm
- Flurry of Blows: (1d6+5str)*2
- Improved Divine Smite: +1d8 per hit
- Standard TOTAL = 3d10 (weapon)+30 (gwm) + 2d6 (Unarmed) + 25dex + 5d8 (ids)
= 55+2d6+3d10 + 5d8.

Nova efficiency: cast Hunter's Mark instead of Haste. You also use Fangs of Fire Snake. So changes are...
- no more Haste
- Mark: +1d8 per hit so 4d8
- Fangs of Fire Snake: extra 1d10 per UnarmedStrike so +2d10 for 3 ki points
- 4 Divine Smites (3 lvl3 and 1 lvl2): so 3*(4d8) + 1*(2d8)
NOVA TOTAL = Standard total - (1d8+15) + (4d8)+ (2d10) + (14d8)
= 55 -15 +2d6 +3d10 +5d8 -1d8 + 18d8 + 2d10
= 40 + 2d6 + 5d10 + 22d8
= 40 + 12 + 50 + 176 = 178 max (because you can stun him > autocrit).
Could be improved by dropping monks level to get more spell slots or action surge.
Pretty poor for a nova but repeatable a few times, and standard damage is pretty correct.


2. Kenshiro
Variant: Ranger Hunter 3 / Paladin Devotion 3 / Monk Open Hand 5 / Wizard 7 + Fighter 2
Just for the fun of 100%MAD, although it's not bad: you get 2 (Attack) + 2 (Flurry) + 1 (Horde Breaker) per turn, all of them with +4 to hit (Sacred Weapon) and smiting capabilities (with Wizard bringing utilities, spell slots and goodies from school). You can also drop Ranger is not interested in FightingStyle + exclusive spells + Horde Breaker and get more ASI/spells (or dip into Rogue/Warlock/etc).
Standard damage: +5 to hit with CD, +1d8 on every hit (Hunter's Mark), 3 attacks with Glaive (GWM), 2 with Unarmed Strike. So standard damage is same than previous build.
Standard Damage = 55+2d6+3d10+5d8
Nova damage loses Improved Divine Smite but gains better smites and action surge (and worst case coming one lvl5 Absorb Elements).
NOVA Damage = Standard damage + (1d10+5str+10gwm+1d8)*2 (action surge) + (3*lvl4 +3*lvl3 +1*lvl2 smites on each hit) + lvl5 Absorb Element
= 55+2d6+3d10+5d8 + (2d10+30+2d8) + (3*5 + 3*4 + 3*3)d8 + 5d6
= 85 + 2d6 + 5d10 + (7+15+12+9)d8 +5d6
Nova Damage = 85 + 7d6 + 43d8 + 5d10 (with 15% of it on another enemy)
= 85 + 42 + 344 + 50 = 523 max potential of various elements (magical/radiant/nature) if auto-crit with allies help.
Big problem here: you can launch a 100% nova once and a 30% nova once (feeble smites) and then you're purely out of juice: just standard turn. So not a very sustainable build, although standard damage is not shabby (with GWF rerolling 1/2) ranging from 65 (very improbable) to 137 (max), not taking into account added mobility & defense, control options etc.

I'll stop here or I won't stop ever. Good evening!

EDIT: finally took the time to detail the potential damage. Only with max though sorry.

[Spacehamster]

First... 7th level spells > a feat. Second, if you start paladin you are level 11 before you get animate dead. Yuck. But if you want to melee at all with this build you'll need STR or DEX, CHA, AND INT to be high. Your stats being high, and the build not needing feats really, should help with that. CHA and INT would be my 20s, for more potent spells and minions.

For it not to suck while leveling you'd honestly have to go wizard to at least 5 for animate dead, then you could take paladin to 7 for huge buffs to your minions, then finish out wizard. (pick up as close to your CR as possible minion with command undead from paladin)

How do you feel about 5 levels pal first then 5 wiz? Sure you get animate dead at 10 but you are not weak anywhere on the way there, get two attacks as quick as possible and get spell slots for smiting quicker then normal when you start taking wizard levels.

oh and the three levels you take after ten will all have huge impact on your level of power, lvl 11 take 6 wiz get prof dmg and + hp and more minions, lvl 12 take 6 oath get the better save aura and lvl after that cha to dmg aura for you and your minions. :)

[Easy_Lee]

9 barbarian (totem) / 11 champion, half orc with GWM, is perhaps the highest sustained damage possible. Axe and polearm both work well. Extra resilient feats and Alert are also great choices. Your crits hurt badly, and you get plenty. With reckless attack + bear totem 3, you have advantage and can utilize the GWM +10 on every attack.

[HarrisonF]

I really like Paladin 6 (or 7 if ancients)/Sorcerer 14 for a gish type. You are good at melee but still have the ability to throw down spells on demand. Being able to do a Quicken spell and then a full round of attacks with smites allows for some really devastating nova rounds. You are also an amazing tank if you want to be with Shield spell + Plate + Shield and great saves. It also plays well when leveling, you basically are a pure paladin and then start scaling your casting as well. There is basically no level where you don't get new nice toys to play with.

You really need high Str, Cha, and Con to make this work well though.

[Citan]

3. Singer of Nature's Wrath (tm ^^).
Ranged version: great crowd cleaner
Ranger 11 (Hunter) / Bard 6 (Lore) / Paladin 3 (Oath of Devotion):
Build dedicated to raining augmented arrows with Volley (can also work on Melee with Multiattack but better going Fighter then) on enemies: poach Elemental Weapon as Bard, use Sacred Weapon, get Sharpshooter, you have now good damage against many enemies every turn.
For single enemy, you'll have to go melee and prepare your nova on turn before: cast use Absorb Elements (with ally's help) as lvl 6 then Thunderous smite if you have good chance of success or Branding Smite. On next turn use divine smites on your two attacks. Not great but correct.

Melee version: stupidly dedicated elemental striker
From build above, trade Ranger 11 with EK Fighter and Sharpshooter with GWM+PolearmMaster+Sentinel with Glaive: less spell slots but more ASI/Feats, 3 attack on a single enemy and can still get Absorb Elements (wizard spell) to burst against an enemy.
You can also go Vengeance instead of Devotion to get 1d8 damage (Mark) and advantage instead of +5toHit (although I'd personnally prefer bypassing Hunter's Mark and get ensured hits with +CHA)
Your standard damage will be correct: (1d10 + 5 STR + 1d8 HM +10 GWM)*3 and bonus attack 1d4+5+1d8+10 so 3d10 + 4d8 + 1d4 + 60.
Nova will be correct though with Elemental Weapon as lvl 5 (+2 to hit, +2d4) instead of Hunter's Mark, action surge, two instances of Absorb Elements with ally help (reaction n-1 > Attack > reaction N > Action Surge) and Smites (3 lvl3 + 3lvl2 + 1lvl1):
NOVA = (1d10 weapondice + 5 mod + 2d4 EW + 10 GWM)*6 (Extra Attack + Action Surge) + (1d4+5+2d4+10) (bonus attack) + 5d6*2 (lvl5 Absorb Element) + (3*4+3*3+1*2)d8 (smites)
= (6d10 + 30 + 12d4 + 60) + (1d4 + 5 + 2d4 + 10) + 10d6 + 23d8
= 105 + 6d10 + 15d4 + 10d6 + 23d8
= 105 + 60 + 60 + 60 + 184
= 469 max damage if an ally clears autocrit condition.

Problem of this build is that Elemental Weapon brings nothing but trouble by itself (situationally better than Hunter's Mark since applied on the weapon and not a single enemy, but too expensive for this particular build. Only here because concept of Elemental fighter). Will shine against specific enemies or with an ally casting Elemental Bane though.

Still, this is not a recommended build for efficiency: basically, you can nova 100% once and another one at 40% efficiency per long rest then you're finished: too few spell slots for sustain.
However, it is recommended for fluff if you want to play a God(dess) of Hunt and Nature for example. ;)

Note: I also detailed the damage potential for my two other suggestions a few posts above.

[Giant2005]

I'd go Barb 2/Tempest Cleric 1/Paladin 2/Valor Bard 6/Abjuration Wizard 9 or Totem Barb 3/Tempest Cleric 1/Valor Bard 6/Abjuration Wizard 9 depending on whether you want the extra mitigation of the Totem Barb or the extra offense of the Paladin's Smites.

The point is to get as many spell slots as possible to cast Armor of Agathys (Via Magical Secrets) and use the Barbarian's Rage and Abjuration Wizard's Arcane Ward to extend that Armor of Agathys as long as possible. Keep your AC low and spam Reckless Attack as much as you can because you actually want to be hit. The rest of the build is about giving you as many things to do while Raging as Possible. The Tempest Cleric lets you cast the equivalent of a level 1 Hellish Rebuke Wismod times per day that can be used while Raging and the Paladin Smites can be used while Raging too. Even without the extra magical tricks, your damage will be above average with the Rage bonus damage, Extra Attack and Reckless Attack.
The main problem is that even with those ridiculous rolls of yours, the build is probably more MAD than can be handled. You really want 20s in Str, Wis and Int and at least 1 feat (Probably a second in GWM) - the build only provides 3 Feats/ASIs which probably won't be enough to do it.


I'm now going completely off-topic, but does anyone else see threads like this and completely wonder how they exist? I understand ridiculously good rolls do happen but I have no idea how you end up with the outcome of having your abilities rolled up days or even weeks prior to even having a character to put them on. I always thought that it was pretty standard practice to roll your abilities and make a character at the same time.

[Ralanr]

Now that you mention it...that is a little odd.

[Spacehamster]

I'd go Barb 2/Tempest Cleric 1/Paladin 2/Valor Bard 6/Abjuration Wizard 9 or Totem Barb 3/Tempest Cleric 1/Valor Bard 6/Abjuration Wizard 9 depending on whether you want the extra mitigation of the Totem Barb or the extra offense of the Paladin's Smites.

The point is to get as many spell slots as possible to cast Armor of Agathys (Via Magical Secrets) and use the Barbarian's Rage and Abjuration Wizard's Arcane Ward to extend that Armor of Agathys as long as possible. Keep your AC low and spam Reckless Attack as much as you can because you actually want to be hit. The rest of the build is about giving you as many things to do while Raging as Possible. The Tempest Cleric lets you cast the equivalent of a level 1 Hellish Rebuke Wismod times per day that can be used while Raging and the Paladin Smites can be used while Raging too. Even without the extra magical tricks, your damage will be above average with the Rage bonus damage, Extra Attack and Reckless Attack.
The main problem is that even with those ridiculous rolls of yours, the build is probably more MAD than can be handled. You really want 20s in Str, Wis and Int and at least 1 feat (Probably a second in GWM) - the build only provides 3 Feats/ASIs which probably won't be enough to do it.


I'm now going completely off-topic, but does anyone else see threads like this and completely wonder how they exist? I understand ridiculously good rolls do happen but I have no idea how you end up with the outcome of having your abilities rolled up days or even weeks prior to even having a character to put them on. I always thought that it was pretty standard practice to roll your abilities and make a character at the same time.

I rolled up my stats while the players did when we started the adventure I DM so I would have that done and could make a char at my leisure when Im done as DM. :)

[Citan]

Let me present you yet another character (and the last for melee builds): Cherry Piker :)
It is NOT a min-maxed one but very "I can do it all". See it as a much more flexible Paladin than the pure one. Also this will probably only be a concept forever, seeing how few campaigns get to 20 (although it's usable after a few levels since it's basically a variant Paladin). ^^


Cherry Piker
Ranger Hunter 3 / Fighter 2 / Paladin Devotion 6 / Warlock Tome 3 / Rogue Swashbuckler 3 / Sorcerer (any) 3.

Your bread&butter will be Melee with 2 (Extra Attack) + 1 (Horde Breaker) with action surge if necessary, spells slots are mainly for Hex/Hunter's Mark, utilities and Smiting.

[Mobility & Defense]
Dash/Disengage/Hide as bonus action (Rogue), +CHA to initiative (Rogue), no opportunity attacks from creatures you attacked (Rogue), +CHA to any saving throw (Paladin), and...
either Heavy Armor+ Shield + Defense Fighting Style if you go Great Weapon
or Draconic Sorcerer + Mariner Fighting style for extreme mobility (then TWF is the best choice since shield forbidden).

You'll also have Armor of Agathys (Warlock), Shield (Sorcerer) and Paladin defensive spells available if necessary.

[Offensive ability]
Melee: GWF (-5+10) or TWF (+1 bonus action attack), with lvl13 character spell slots for smiting when needed, with +5 to every attack (Sacred Weapon) and Hunter's Mark.
Ranged: spellcaster's cantrips (presumably Eldricht Blast as main) or augmented lvl1 spells, it's not your main thing.
ACTION SURGE.

[Spellcasting]
You'll have many nice cantrips usable for RP and/or combat (Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Agonizing or Repelling Eldritch Blast, Thorn Whips, Guidance, Resistance etc), a few utility spells and up to lvl3 rituals from any class.

[Other]
Sorcerer is here for fluff and less-MAD mainly, since you have too few metamagic points for it to be really useful (except as "panic button" like Twinned healing/protection spell or Quickened cantrip). If neither Draconic nor Favored Soul interests you, take Lore Bard instead for skills and Cutting Words.
Warlock Tome is proposed for gettings some Cleric/Druid exclusive cantrips and Ritual Versatility. Otherwise, go Chains or drop the archetype entirely.
Ranger is here only for the Horde Breaker (which can synergize with Command/Compelled Duel in melee). Hunter's Mark is redundant with Hex, Fighting Style and Absorb Element are nice but not enough to justify 3 levels by themselves. So if you're not interested in 3rd attack on another enemy, drop Ranger entirely to get more ASI/Feat or further diversify, or both (like Paladin 8 + Druid 1 for cantrips and Absorb Elements or Life Cleric 1 to be great at healing).
Biggest problem of this build is very very few ASI/Feats.

100% MAD Variant
Ranger Hunter 3 / Fighter 2 / Paladin Devotion 6 / Warlock 2 / Rogue 2 / Wizard 5.
You drop Swashbuckler and Warlock archetype for more levels, and go Wizard instead of Sorcerer.
You lose: +CHA to initiative (not so hard), no opportunity attack (=Mobile feat), rituals not available to wizard (not so hard), lvl2 warlock spell slots (not so hard since you're using many lvl1 spells anyways).
You gain: 1 more ASI/Feats, lvl 3 spells, much more choice, potentially many more spells known. You lose .
You could also go Cleric 5 for nice spells such as Spiritual Weapons and Spirit Guardians, but many spells redundant with Paladin and you already have many uses of bonus actions and Concentration.
Or Druid 5 to get Wild Shape, Absorb Elements, Moon Beam, Conjure Animals. By the way, you can still smite as a beast... :)

[Spacehamster]

Decided for oathbreaker/necromancer but lets get it going just for fun as coming up with un-orthodox builds is fun. :)

The unholy assassin:

11 oathbreaker paladin/ 3 assassin and 6 lore bard.

Gets autocrit on surprise, level 6 spell slots, cha to dmg for self plus undead/fiend minions, good saves, 1d8 extra on all attacks, lots of skills and 4 expertise.

[Citan]

Decided for oathbreaker/necromancer but lets get it going just for fun as coming up with un-orthodox builds is fun. :)

The unholy assassin:

11 oathbreaker paladin/ 3 assassin and 6 lore bard.

Gets autocrit on surprise, level 6 spell slots, cha to dmg for self plus undead/fiend minions, good saves, 1d8 extra on all attacks, lots of skills and 4 expertise.
Good one (you evil fiend you). I also love the idea of dealing necrotic AND radiant damage at the same time. ^^ Although... Where is the MAD? You basically go on CHA and either STR or DEX, a mandatory 13 is not bad. I'm a bit disappointed XD.

Only note on my part would be to ensure the surprise effect. You'll have to work with your team or at least learn some spells to help. Too bad you don't get lvl4 spells for Bard (just 1 lvl away ^^) you could get Greater Invisibility...
If you are confiant in clearing conditions for surprise round then your build is perfect.
Otherwise, I'd suggest Paladin 9 / Assassin 3 / Lore Bard 8: you trade 1d8 on every hit for another Feat, even more spell slots and Greater Invisibility, Compulsion and Polymorph.

Your build as is gets much better damage sustainability on the long run though (especially with Haste). :)

[Spacehamster]

Good one (you evil fiend you). I also love the idea of dealing necrotic AND radiant damage at the same time. ^^
Only note on my part would be to ensure the surprise effect. You'll have to work with your team or at least learn some spells to help. Too bad you don't get lvl4 spells for Bard (just 1 lvl away ^^) you could get Greater Invisibility...
If you are confiant in clearing conditions for surprise round then your build is perfect.
Otherwise, I'd suggest Paladin 9 / Assassin 3 / Lore Bard 8: you trade 1d8 on every hit for another Feat, even more spell slots and Greater Invisibility, Compulsion and Polymorph.

Your build as is gets much better damage sustainability on the long run though (especially with Haste). :)

Yeah were thinking going dueling, having DEX as main combat stat, use studded leather and put expertise in stealth, also normal invisibility should help even if
its not as good as imp invis. :)

[Citan]

Yeah were thinking going dueling, having DEX as main combat stat, use studded leather and put expertise in stealth, also normal invisibility should help even if
its not as good as imp invis. :)
Indeed. A warrior in full plate is gonna make much sound, but if you go DEX based build it's ok (just don't forget to remove your shoes to be extra silent ^^), maybe not even need invisibility. Although for an Assassin being perma-invisible is nice for fluff. ^^

If you go Dueling then Shield Master is a good one too.
If you start Paladin, this means proficiency in WIS and CHA, here Shield Master helps compensating in DEX (since most damage-dealing spells are DEX saving throws, +2 always helps). Not taking into account the +CHA of Aura. :)

[Spacehamster]

Indeed. A warrior in full plate is gonna make much sound, but if you go DEX based build it's ok (just don't forget to remove your shoes to be extra silent ^^), maybe not even need invisibility. Although for an Assassin being perma-invisible is nice for fluff. ^^

If you go Dueling then Shield Master is a good one too.
If you start Paladin, this means proficiency in WIS and CHA, here Shield Master helps compensating in DEX (since most damage-dealing spells are DEX saving throws, +2 always helps). Not taking into account the +CHA of Aura. :)

And if want even less MAD and prob more effective 11 oathbreaker and 9 lore bard would probably make for one hell of a badass. :)

[Yagyujubei]

Stats is 18, 18, 17, 16, 16 and 14 and yes I do have witnesses and we used quite roll friendly method of roll 4, reroll 1´s and remove lowest. :)
Not interested in single class play cause would feel as a waste, two class at least with odd combinations since the stats can afford it. :)

OK so im a huge fan of the paladin/warlock combo and I think OatA Pally 12, Feylock 6, Fighter 2 would be pretty baller.

honestly, if you want to min/max then you cant really beat paladin imho...but other fun builds exist even if they aren't quite as good.

the STR Monk/Barbarian ultimate grapple build is alot of fun and requires amazing rolls

shadow monk/feylock ninja build

Moon Druid/Totem Barbarian for raged wild shape shenanigans

also, an Eldritch Knight/war cleric xbow expert would be good

EDIT: oh if you're going oath breaker, and have someone in party who can haste you then going dual wielding 12 bladelock 8 paladin is pretty silly. you get STR/DEX and double CHA to your dmg, so with your two attacks+haste+bonus action attack you're getting +60 damage minimum on attacks. with Duelist and a +1 weapon you're getting +72

at that point who gives a **** what your weapon die are. also just out of curiousity, does the weapon attack from haste proc lifedrinker? since it is technically a single weapon attack from an attack action.

[Citan]

All these posts made me think about a simple yet powerful build, aiming at best "constant bonus damage on weapon".
Oathbreaker Paladin 11: +CHA necrotic, +1d8 radiant.
Lore Bard 6: to get Elemental Weapon, Hex, Haste and Bestow Curse.
Bear Totem Barbarian 3: gets +2 and resistance to nearly all damage during rage.
(Or replace Barbarian with Battlemaster for manoeuvers).
Usual STR, Heavy weapon combo with GWM

You get a solid frontliner with base weapon damage dealing (weapondice+STR+CHA+10+1d8 radiant)*2.
Cast Bestow Curse as lvl 5 on an enemy to get free +1d8 necrotic.
Then cast either Elemental Weapon, Haste or Hex depending on your needs and slots available.

You're also solid on defense with lvl 6 aura, and if needed Barbarian rage for resistance to damage and additional +2.

Would suit a concept such as Evil Army General leading an undead army. ^^
Only drawback is, it's actually not fitting this topic, since not MAD at all (CHA+STR as any Paladin) :)


honestly, if you want to min/max then you cant really beat paladin imho...but other fun builds exist even if they aren't quite as good.
(...)
at that point who gives a **** what your weapon die are. also just out of curiousity, does the weapon attack from haste proc lifedrinker? since it is technically a single weapon attack from an attack action.
Agreed on the fact that Paladin is in the top three chassis to build optimized characters due to auras and smites.

I also share your opinion that having more attacks is much more important than having the top weapon dice, considering smites again as well as weapon buffs like Elemental Weapon. Can be on par with striker while having more flexibility (concentrate on one enemy or damage several).

As for your question, Lifedrinker applies whenever you hit with your pact weapon, so yes, it applies also to Haste attack.

[Silvercrys]

Well, an idea I've been kicking around while trying to optimize Nova damage is something like:

Monk 2/Paladin 2/Warlock 3/Sorcerer 4/Rogue 3 (Assassin)/Monk +3/Fighter 2/Warlock or Rogue +1

Nova round at level 7 goes:
Action: Shortsword 1d6+3d8 Smite
Bonus Action: Flurry 1d4+3d8 Smite
Flurry 1d4+2d8 Smite

At 10, you get one 4d8 smite and more 3d8 smites. (2 per short rest + Caster Level 5 slots)

At 14 you get Auto crits if you have Surprise and 2d6 sneak on your Shortsword.

At 15 you get Monk 3 and go Elements, grab Fangs of the Fire Snake and spend Ki to get +1d10 unarmed damage (+2d10 during Surprise).

At 17 you finally get Extra Attack. Probably want to make it Unarmed during Nova for the Fangs of the Fire Snake damage unless your first Shortsword attack misses (to get another chance at Sneak Attack).

At 19 you get Action Surge, going up to 6 Auto crits on a surprise round nova for
1x Shortsword 2d6 + 4d6 Sneak + 8d8 Smite
5x Unarmed 2d4 + 2d10 Fire Snake + 6d8 Smite


Build Cons:
Ability reqs for Multiclassing (13 Str, 13 Dex, 13 Wis, 13 Cha)

Lack of at-will damage because you don't get Extra Attack until 17 (although you can Smite twice per short rest on Warlock slots)

And the real killer:
The build only has 3 ASI's, and the 3rd isn't until 20. Could shift it down to 18 and hold off on Action Surge until 20, I suppose.

Also, it looks super cheesy. Look at all those dips.

[Ralanr]

Hmm
Goliath barb 6 (totem bear on both)/monk X (open hand) would make an insane grappler.

[Citan]

Well, an idea I've been kicking around while trying to optimize Nova damage is something like:

Monk 2/Paladin 2/Warlock 3/Sorcerer 4/Rogue 3 (Assassin)/Monk +3/Fighter 2/Warlock or Rogue +1

At 19 you get Action Surge, going up to 6 Auto crits on a surprise round nova for
1x Shortsword 2d6 + 4d6 Sneak + 8d8 Smite
5x Unarmed 2d4 + 2d10 Fire Snake + 6d8 Smite

Build Cons:
Ability reqs for Multiclassing (13 Str, 13 Dex, 13 Wis, 13 Cha)

Lack of at-will damage because you don't get Extra Attack until 17 (although you can Smite twice per short rest on Warlock slots)

And the real killer:
The build only has 3 ASI's, and the 3rd isn't until 20. Could shift it down to 18 and hold off on Action Surge until 20, I suppose.

Also, it looks super cheesy. Look at all those dips.
Let me sum up because I'm a little lost on final build ^^
Monk 2/Paladin 2/Warlock 3/Sorcerer 4/Rogue 3 (Assassin)/Monk +3/Fighter 2/Warlock or Rogue +1
>>> Paladin 2 / Monk 5 / Sorcerer 4 / Rogue 3 / Fighter 2 / Warlock 4 (better than Rogue because add spell slot and spell known)
Spellcaster lvl = (2/2) +4 = 5.

It fairly resembles one of the builds I propose hereabove in that it uses Monk to up the number of attacks and Paladin to smite. I guess Warlock is for short rest smites and Eldricht Blast. Any particular reason however to go Sorcerer 4? I feel only 4 MP is too short to be really useful, except for MM lovers such as me. :)

Moreover, I really understand your calcul: how can you get so high Smites?
If I follow your progression, at lvl 7 you're Monk 2 / Paladin 2 / Warlock 3: so you're "spellcaster lvl 1" (don't forget than Paladin count for half, and Warlock lvls are not included since they have specific short-rest slots). So you have 2 lvl1 "short-slots" and 2 lvl 1 normal spell slots
So your best shot on on turn on first fight of the day would be
Shortsword + lvl2 Smite: 1d6+2d8
Flurry + Smite: 1d4+2d8
Flurry +Smite: 1d4+2d8
And you have only 1 normal spell slot left for the day.

At lvl 20, you'll only have two 2nd lvl short-slots, and 4 lvl1, 3 lvl2 and 2 lvl3 normal spell slots. Also, you have only 5 ki points, and you use 1 to activate Fangs then 1 another per hit to get 1d10 fire damage. So max 4*1d10. So best use Shortsword on 2 first attacks.
So your "normal" (without crit) nova (action surge + max smites + Fire fists on unarmed) will be...
2x Shortsword 1d6 + 4d8 Smite (lvl3): normal Attack action
2x Unarmed 1d4 + 1d10 Fire Snake + 3d8 (smite lvl 2): Attack through Action Surge.
2x Unarmed 1d4 + 1d10 Fire Snake + 2d8 Smite (lvl1 short-rest Smite).
1x Sneak attack 2d6
1x lvl2 Searing Smite Spell cast before acting: 2d6
Your total nova damage without surprise is...
NOVA = 2d6+8d8 + 2d4+2d10+6d8 + 2d4+2d10+4d8 + 2d6 + 2d6
= 4d4 + 6d6 + 18d8 + 4d10
= 16+36+144+40 = 236 absolute max. So 472 absolute max with surprise and luck.

This is a nice nova. Problem is, you use all your normal spell slots except lvl1.
For the rest of the day, you'll have to stick with your last 2 lvl1 slots, your 2 short-rest lvl1 slots, ki points and action surge.

Meaning that, basically, after each short rest for the remaining of the day, you can do a mini-nova (combo action surge + fire snake), then only option is 2 shortsword (Attack) + 1 US (bonus action) per turn, so 2d6+1d4 per turn. That's a bit sad for a lvl 20 character. :)

Your idea was nice but I get a strong feeling you expected the Warlock levels to count to global spellcaster level... Also, my personal opinion is that 3 lvls is expensive just to get a surprise nova.

Check my "Kenshiro" build above in thread: its basically the same principle, although better base damage and better nova damage without needing surprise. It has the same drawback of being not very sustainable though. :)

[Yagyujubei]

All these posts made me think about a simple yet powerful build, aiming at best "constant bonus damage on weapon".
Oathbreaker Paladin 11: +CHA necrotic, +1d8 radiant.
Lore Bard 6: to get Elemental Weapon, Hex, Haste and Bestow Curse.
Bear Totem Barbarian 3: gets +2 and resistance to nearly all damage during rage.
(Or replace Barbarian with Battlemaster for manoeuvers).
Usual STR, Heavy weapon combo with GWM

You get a solid frontliner with base weapon damage dealing (weapondice+STR+CHA+10+1d8 radiant)*2.
Cast Bestow Curse as lvl 5 on an enemy to get free +1d8 necrotic.
Then cast either Elemental Weapon, Haste or Hex depending on your needs and slots available.

You're also solid on defense with lvl 6 aura, and if needed Barbarian rage for resistance to damage and additional +2.

Would suit a concept such as Evil Army General leading an undead army. ^^
Only drawback is, it's actually not fitting this topic, since not MAD at all (CHA+STR as any Paladin) :)

Agreed on the fact that Paladin is in the top three chassis to build optimized characters due to auras and smites.

I also share your opinion that having more attacks is much more important than having the top weapon dice, considering smites again as well as weapon buffs like Elemental Weapon. Can be on par with striker while having more flexibility (concentrate on one enemy or damage several).

As for your question, Lifedrinker applies whenever you hit with your pact weapon, so yes, it applies also to Haste attack.

ah i meant to say thirsting blade, I know that the double attack doesn't work with multi attack but I was curious as to whether or not it worked with the attack you get from haste, i would think that it does but im not sure.

if it DOES then good lord this build would have serious at will damage. if haste DID proc the double attacks that would mean you would have 2 swings from your attack, 2 from your haste attack, and one for your bonus offhand attack. each attack would get +18dmg (aside from the bonus attack which would only have 13 unless you get your dm to allow dual wield pact weapon). add hex to that and it means you're busting out...5d8+5d6+90(!!) without breaking a sweat. that's and average of 130 per turn WITHOUT using a smite, pretty beastly. full nova would allow for another 13d8 from smites ^^

[Citan]

Yet another MAD concept (still on physical, didn't think about spellcasters yet) ^^

Thorny Friend
Idea is simply to take your usual crowd cleaner Ranger (Colossus Slayer+Volley+Sharpshooter+Archery), then take Crossbow Expert to be able to shoot from melee. Then add Monk 1+ (for Unarmored), Paladin 3+ (for Compelled Duel/Command/Sacred Weapon) and Fighter 2 (Action Surge, Mariner) to the mix.
For example Ranger 11 / Fighter 2 / Paladin 4 / Monk 1 / Abjuration Wizard 2 to be totally MAD.
Or just Ranger 12 / Monk 1 / Paladin 4 / Druid 3 (for additional spells and spell slots).
Pump WIS and DEX, then CHA as much as possible, rest to minimum required.

Compared to a pure Ranger, you're now better in offense (+CHA to hit, maybe Divine Favor +1d4 damage), in defense (Unarmored in range of 16 to 20, +1 Mariner), in mobility (Mariner): you can start as usual at range then if necessary draw everyone with Command / Compelled Duel then Volley them all.

On second thought, works even better without MAD by swapping Monk with Draconic Sorcerer. Ex Ranger 12 / Sorcerer 2 / Paladin 6 for wonderful aura or Sorcerer 5 / Paladin 3 if you want lvl3 spells.
Pump DEX and CHA, keep WIS to minimum for multiclass, not hard loss since you'll use Ranger's spell which don't depend much on modifier. :)



if it DOES then good lord this build would have serious at will damage. if haste DID proc the double attacks that would mean you would have 2 swings from your attack, 2 from your haste attack, and one for your bonus offhand attack. each attack would get +18dmg (aside from the bonus attack which would only have 13 unless you get your dm to allow dual wield pact weapon). add hex to that and it means you're busting out...5d8+5d6+90(!!) without breaking a sweat. that's and average of 130 per turn WITHOUT using a smite, pretty beastly. full nova would allow for another 13d8 from smites ^^
Thing is, you are wasting some potency since many features between Paladin and this Bladelock are redundant: beginning with Extra Attack / Thirsting Blade. You have 3 lvl5 short-rest slots which are overkill for Smite, and as a normal spellcaster you're lvl4 so only a few lvl 1 and 2 slots.
So this build is very good fluff-wise (and if you want to play with Invocation), but suffers in terms of pure build.

That's why I'd recommend instead Oathbreaker Paladin 11+ / Bard or Sorcerer: instead of CHA (Paladin 7) + CHA (Warlock 12), you get CHA (Paladin 7) and 1d8 (Paladin 11) on every hit. Meaning potentially more, often roughly the same. And you have many levels to get a spellcaster class to improve smites and spellcasting versatility. :)

[Silvercrys]

Let me sum up because I'm a little lost on final build ^^
Monk 2/Paladin 2/Warlock 3/Sorcerer 4/Rogue 3 (Assassin)/Monk +3/Fighter 2/Warlock or Rogue +1
>>> Paladin 2 / Monk 5 / Sorcerer 4 / Rogue 3 / Fighter 2 / Warlock 4 (better than Rogue because add spell slot and spell known)
Spellcaster lvl = (2/2) +4 = 5.

It fairly resembles one of the builds I propose hereabove in that it uses Monk to up the number of attacks and Paladin to smite. I guess Warlock is for short rest smites and Eldricht Blast. Any particular reason however to go Sorcerer 4? I feel only 4 MP is too short to be really useful, except for MM lovers such as me. :)

Moreover, I really understand your calcul: how can you get so high Smites?
If I follow your progression, at lvl 7 you're Monk 2 / Paladin 2 / Warlock 3: so you're "spellcaster lvl 1" (don't forget than Paladin count for half, and Warlock lvls are not included since they have specific short-rest slots). So you have 2 lvl1 "short-slots" and 2 lvl 1 normal spell slots
So your best shot on on turn on first fight of the day would be
Shortsword + lvl2 Smite: 1d6+2d8
Flurry + Smite: 1d4+2d8
Flurry +Smite: 1d4+2d8
And you have only 1 normal spell slot left for the day.

At lvl 20, you'll only have two 2nd lvl short-slots, and 4 lvl1, 3 lvl2 and 2 lvl3 normal spell slots. Also, you have only 5 ki points, and you use 1 to activate Fangs then 1 another per hit to get 1d10 fire damage. So max 4*1d10. So best use Shortsword on 2 first attacks.
So your "normal" (without crit) nova (action surge + max smites + Fire fists on unarmed) will be...
2x Shortsword 1d6 + 4d8 Smite (lvl3): normal Attack action
2x Unarmed 1d4 + 1d10 Fire Snake + 3d8 (smite lvl 2): Attack through Action Surge.
2x Unarmed 1d4 + 1d10 Fire Snake + 2d8 Smite (lvl1 short-rest Smite).
1x Sneak attack 2d6
1x lvl2 Searing Smite Spell cast before acting: 2d6
Your total nova damage without surprise is...
NOVA = 2d6+8d8 + 2d4+2d10+6d8 + 2d4+2d10+4d8 + 2d6 + 2d6
= 4d4 + 6d6 + 18d8 + 4d10
= 16+36+144+40 = 236 absolute max. So 472 absolute max with surprise and luck.

This is a nice nova. Problem is, you use all your normal spell slots except lvl1.
For the rest of the day, you'll have to stick with your last 2 lvl1 slots, your 2 short-rest lvl1 slots, ki points and action surge.

Meaning that, basically, after each short rest for the remaining of the day, you can do a mini-nova (combo action surge + fire snake), then only option is 2 shortsword (Attack) + 1 US (bonus action) per turn, so 2d6+1d4 per turn. That's a bit sad for a lvl 20 character. :)

Your idea was nice but I get a strong feeling you expected the Warlock levels to count to global spellcaster level... Also, my personal opinion is that 3 lvls is expensive just to get a surprise nova.

Check my "Kenshiro" build above in thread: its basically the same principle, although better base damage and better nova damage without needing surprise. It has the same drawback of being not very sustainable though. :)

That's a good summary. The Sorcerer is so you can exchange your pact spell slots for Sorcerer spell slots. More of an end of the day nova than a first combat one. It's been a couple weeks since I wrote the whole thing down. I definitely didn't add Warlock to total caster levels... let me see if I can dig up my notes.

Edit 1
At level 7 (Warlock 3) the build has 2 - 2nd level short rest slots (3d8 smite) and 2 - 1st level Paladin slots. Nova should be:
Short sword: 1d6 + 3d8 smite
Flurry: 1d4 + 3d8 smite
Flurry: 1d4 + 2d8 smite

I found my notes and it looks like I posted an earlier iteration (like I said I've been kicking it around for a while). I'll format the current one in a nice code block and post it later, but the level 20 stub is:
Monk 5/Paladin 2/Warlock 3/Rogue 3/Sorcerer 5/Fighter 2

Which only gives 2 ASI's and is therefore even more reliant on having high base scores, but allows you to create 3rd level spell slots with Font of Sorcery from 1st level normal slots and 2 Pact Magic spell slots.

Edit 2
Current Build

Here it is, straight from my notes. I used AnyDice to calculate average damage, and halved it to get average damage if you hit on a 11, for those curious. Real average damage is very slightly higher after you get 2d6 Sneak Attack because if the first Short Sword attack misses, you can make another one instead of an Unarmed Strike (4d6/2d6 is very slightly higher than 2d10/1d10)


Level Class Spell Slots
1 Monk 1 None
2 Paladin 1 None
3 Paladin 2 2 (1st)
4 Warlock 1 2 (1st) + 1 (PM 1st)
5 Warlock 2 2 (1st) + 2 (PM 1st)
6 Monk 2 2 (1st) + 2 (PM 1st)
7 Monk 3 2 (1st) + 2 (PM 1st)
8 Monk 4 2 (1st) + 2 (PM 1st)
9 Monk 5 2 (1st) + 2 (PM 1st)
10 Rogue 1 2 (1st) + 2 (PM 1st)
11 Rogue 2 2 (1st) + 2 (PM 1st)
12 Rogue 3 2 (1st) + 2 (PM 1st)
13 Sorcerer 1 3 (1st) + 2 (PM 1st)
14 Sorcerer 2 4 (1st), 2 (2nd) + 2 (PM 1st) + 1 (1st, Font)
15 Sorcerer 3 4 (1st), 3 (2nd) + 2 (PM 1st) + 1 (1st, Font)
16 Warlock 3 4 (1st), 3 (2nd) + 2 (PM 2nd) + 1 (1st, Font)
17 Sorcerer 4 4 (1st), 3 (2nd), 2 (3rd) + 2 (PM 2nd) + 1 (1st, Font)
18 Sorcerer 5 4 (1st), 3 (2nd), 3 (3rd) + 2 (PM 2nd) + 1 (1st, Font)
19 Fighter 1 4 (1st), 3 (2nd), 3 (3rd) + 2 (PM 2nd) + 1 (1st, Font)
20 Fighter 2 4 (1st), 3 (2nd), 3 (3rd) + 2 (PM 2nd) + 1 (1st, Font)



Nova damage assumes following stats (Elf, Standard Array)


STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
12 17 10 8 14 14


Bump Dex to 19 at level 8
Bump Dex to 20 and Strength to 13 for Fighter MC at 17
(No space for feats :smalltongue:)


Level 6 Nova is:

Short Sword 1d6 + 2d8 (Smite) + 3 (Dex)
Flurry 1d4 + 2d8 (Smite) + 3 (Dex)
Flurry 1d4 + 2d8 (Smite) + 3 (Dex)

Average damage ~22 if you hit on an 11, max damage is 62, average ~35 if all attacks hit.

Full Nova usable twice per day, requires a short rest between


Level 12 Nova is:

Assuming Surprise
Short Sword 2d6 + 4d8 (Smite) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) + 4 (Dex)
Unarmed 2d6 + 4d8 (Smite) + 2d10 (Fangs of the Fire Snake) + 4 (Dex)
Flurry 2d6 + 4d8 (Smite) + 2d10 (Fangs of the Fire Snake) + 4 (Dex)
Flurry 2d6 + 4d8 (Smite) + 2d10 (Fangs of the Fire Snake) + 4 (Dex)

Average damage ~79 if you hit on an 11, max damage is 272, average ~159 if all attacks hit.

Without Surprise, average damage is ~42 if you hit on an 11, max is 142, average ~85 if all attacks hit.

Full Nova usable twice per day, requires a short rest between.


Level 20 Nova is:

Assuming Surprise
Short Sword 2d6 + 6d8 (Smite) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Dex)
Unarmed 2d6 + 6d8 (Smite) + 2d10 (Fangs of the Fire Snake) + 5 (Dex)
(Action Surge)
Unarmed 2d6 + 6d8 (Smite) + 2d10 (Fangs of the Fire Snake) + 5 (Dex)
Unarmed 2d6 + 6d8 (Smite) + 2d10 (Fangs of the Fire Snake) + 5 (Dex)
Flurry 2d6 + 6d8 (Smite) + 2d10 (Fangs of the Fire Snake) + 5 (Dex)
Flurry 2d6 + 6d8 (Smite) + 5 (Dex)

Now this is probably hardest to follow, I only have 3 (3rd) level spell slots, right?
That's why I took Sorcerer. We can make a fourth (3rd) level spell slot by converting our starting Sorcery Points (5).
We can get a fifth one by converting 2 Pact Magic spells slots of (2nd) level and a (1st) level spell slot to Sorcery Points then to a (3rd) level spell slot.
For the sixth (3rd) level slot, we can either convert 2 (2nd) level normal spell slots and another (1st) level one or take a short rest to regain Pact Magic slots and create one the way we made the fifth.

Average damage is 146 if you hit on an 11, max is 494, average if every attack hits is 292.

Without Surprise, average damage is 80.5 if you hit on an 11, max is 262, average if every attack hits is 161.


Now, is all that hoop jumping worth an extra 2d8 (on a Surprise round) on the last three attacks?
Maybe not. It is an awful lot resources to sink into a nova.

Basic damage, for those interested is:

Short Sword 1d6 + 2d6 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Dex)
Unarmed 1d6 + 5 (Dex)
Martial Arts 1d6 + 5 (Dex)

Average ~16 if you hit on an 11.

Which is only a little worse than straight Rogue, really:

Rapier 1d8 + 9d6 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Dex)

Average ~41 if you hit on an 11.

Ok, so its at-will damage sucks. Forcing trade-offs is important to game balance, after all!


As to the critique that I run out of spell slots by smiting - the build isn't a spell caster. I tried to put all the resources I could towards the Nova damage only, although I didn't factor in 1 round prep (Hex) except for Surprise.

The build's Nova damage goes up quite a bit if you can swing Favored Soul Sorcerer, too. The higher level Smite slots are better than Fangs of the Fire Snake. That build stub is Sorcerer 6/Warlock 5/Rogue 3/Paladin 2/Fighter 2/Monk 2.
But I won't expand on that one - it's based on playtest material and I'm out of time for now.

[Dimolyth]

Stats is 18, 18, 17, 16, 16 and 14 and yes I do have witnesses and we used quite roll friendly method of roll 4, reroll 1´s and remove lowest. :)
Not interested in single class play cause would feel as a waste, two class at least with odd combinations since the stats can afford it. :)

With that great stats allowed to play...
I don`t need martial class, to rest martial.

1. Be mountain dwarf. Use your 18 for CON, 16 for STR and 14 for DEX. You will get starting package of medium armor, dwarven weapons and tank hp whatever class you`ll take.

2. Choose your class(es). As you want to multiclass, try to combine whatever 2 fullcasters as you feel. Note, that at low-levels you are already decent tank without any class (especially with right feats OR extra attck access), so mid-level combo of level3/level6 could work easily.
You can try something really impossible to optimize: Favored Soul Sorcerer1/Blade Warlock5/Lore Bard X - could be manageble choice for you.

[Yagyujubei]

Oh yeah Citan, I don't deny that there's redundancy, the entire build is made to get the highest +DMG i can think of in 5E. def. the most potent way to fight when you're out of smite.

also I TOTALLY forgot about the 5th level spell slots from warlock lol, that adds quite a bit to the nova damage. so 5d8+5d6+90+23d8 from smites. 234 dmg nova aint bad.

it does totally suck that you get considerable crossover from the two classes though I agree.

[Citan]

Oh yeah Citan, I don't deny that there's redundancy, the entire build is made to get the highest +DMG i can think of in 5E. def. the most potent way to fight when you're out of smite.

also I TOTALLY forgot about the 5th level spell slots from warlock lol, that adds quite a bit to the nova damage. so 5d8+5d6+90+23d8 from smites. 234 dmg nova aint bad.

it does totally suck that you get considerable crossover from the two classes though I agree.
Unfortunately, Thirsting Blade defines a variant of the normal Attack action. Haste also defines its "own" variant of the Attack action. So no process. :)
So your build nets 3 full attacks (with Haste) per turn + 1 bonus action attack with +2*CHA per hit, let's say 2*5 for an optimized build. +STR or DEX, so indeed +15. So +60+weapondie per turn.
It's indeed great but requires an ally to cast Haste. Meaning it's not perfectly self-sufficient. :) Being able to cast some buffs throughout the day with Paladin spell slots if nice too. However, while the 3 max smites per short rest are great, the lvl5 is wasted (since max for smites is lvl 4, limit I find totally artificial and useless by the way but it's another story).

A variant of build that I find could be as nice would be Paladin 11 / Warlock 7 / Monk 2.
Not necessarily better (also depends on playstyle and Invocations love), just different.

On the minus side, you get 2*lvl4 instead of 3*lvl5 slots for Warlock: dropping from 5 to 4 is serious as a spellcaster (by Hold Monster) but isn't important for a smiting build. Losing one per-short-rest smite is more serious though.

However, your base bonus to damage will be the same, or even a bit better... Because, as a Monk, you get a free bonus attack when you use Monk weapon, you still get your 3rd attack per turn (without Haste). And the loss of +CHA (Warlock 12) is compensated by +1d8 (Paladin 11).

On the plus side...
1. Quarterstaff goodies!!!
- Monk weapon so you keep bonus attack
- Versatile to either 1-handed + shield as in your initial build (+2 Dueling) OR 2-handed for 1/2 reroll (Great Weapon Fighting).
- Usable with either DEX or STR for added flexibility in the build.
- Usable even with CHA to severely reduce MAD (since you don't need Pact of the Blade, just go Tome and get Shillelagh).
- Compatible with usual Polearm Master + Sentinel nicety to become a great controller.

2. More useful spells (Elemental Weapon, Aura of Vitality, Crusader's Mantle) and a few more spell slots: you can maintain Hunter/Hex for every fight AND still have slots for healing/buff/smite spells.

3. Flurry of Blows twice per short rest: So 2*(1d4+DEX+CHA+1d8 + Elemental Weapon/Hex/Hunter's Mark/etc). Meaning slightly less damage than your build's third 5lvl smite if you didn't use any spells, but same or better damage if you buffed your weapon or hexed your enemy.

This is not harder to level than your build (go Paladin 7 minimum, then Warlock 3 minimum, then build the rest as you see the fittest).
And this is not even a really MAD build...
- As a Monk, you can use either STR or DEX anyways so you can safely dump STR.
- Since you start Paladin, you have proficiency in heavy armor, so you could also dump WIS to the strict minimum required.
Stats like STR 13 / DEX 18 / WIS 13 / CHA 20 do not seem so hard to me to get.
- You can even go Tomelock to get Shillelagh. Congrats, CHA is now the only relevant ability for everything!

All in all, I find this build provides hefty advantages to counterpart the loss of one lvl5 Warlock spell. :)
My 2 cents of build-crafting. ^^

EDIT: By the way, why not use a Glaive or Halberd in your initial build? Sure it goes of STR, but Polearm Master allows you an attack as bonus action, and as you said, having a small weapon dice is not so important in your build. Moreover, you can combo if with Great Weapon Master. This really upgrades your build to be as powerful as mine pertaining base damage (no smite, no spells).

[djreynolds]

Barbarian paladin. You have the stats to do any build. Smiting during raging is legal. Gwf and Gwm. Grab polearmaster and sentinel. I'd go barbarian 4, to paladin 11, then on you. The build is fun. Heck you can finish of with bard, either archetype. Warrior poet, plenty of damage and role playing.

[Psikerlord]

Half-orc champion fighter with a greataxe. Magic initiate for 2 cantrips, dragon marked feat (if your DM will allow) for more casting, and ritual caster for utility. Have fun.

[Princess]

Wood Elf Monk 6/Paladin 14
Or Monk 6/Paladin 2/Fighter 12

Stats - str 16 dex 20 con 16 int 14 wis 18 cha 18

Use dex based weapons, plus at level one you have 19 AC naked and know kung fu. Go Way of Shadow/Oath of Vengeance and you can teleport around and slap people with Hunter's Mark before smiting them as a Monk 6/Paladin 2, and your bloody naked fists of furious vengeance only get deadlier from there. Ask your DM nicely if you can take Two Weapon Fighting as your fighting style and use a pair of shortswords to make sure you land hunter's mark and smite more often :)

More paladin levels for better smites, saves, and so on, or fighter levels for battle master maneuvers and an extra attack as a capstone.