"Stand back, boy, and let me show you war!" (3.5 class, PEACH)

[Jormengand]

"You who came here seeking glory and fame,
Who wish to fly through the air on wings of fire,
You who seek to hold your blade up high,
And catch the sun in its morning glow,

Leave this place and ne'er return,
'Til you set aside that hope,
For there is glory in might and magic,
And there is none in the warrior's path,

He is not a warrior who knows not pain,
Who sets the sky ablaze with moment's thought,
Or touches the foe with his blade,
Just to destroy them with his might,

Was your sword broken a thousand times?
Or did you bury it in a man's skull?
Did you feel each living thing die?
Or did you wonder if you were next?

No, your sword sits with you yet,
And you but touch your foes,
Use that blade to extend the grasp,
Of the magic you claim is skill.

There is no glory in war,
Know that, and pass these gates,
And though many of you will die,
You will die the best you can."

- Inscription above the Hall of Heroes.


It is difficult to be a warrior in times of magic. Many therefore turn to so-called "Martial magic", while others simply call upon arcane powers to become a powerful warrior directly. Almost all pick up some form of magical item at some point in their adventuring career.

Others refuse.

Veterans are the ones who eschew magical power in favour of their own martial prowess. It is a thankless task, but the veteran takes it up not with enthusiasm but with grim determination, with the knowledge that they might be the next to die. But one thing's for certain: they're not going out without a fight.

Adventures: Veterans seek neither gold nor glory, only a chance to show those enrobed sissies where the true power lies. That said, they are as likely as anyone else to go on a mission to save the world, or for other ends specific to their alignment.

Characteristics: Veterans are the last word in mundane warriors. They give up their ability not only to use magic, but to accept it from anyone else, and instead use this inner conviction that they attain therefrom to perform feats of supreme badassery. This means that, much like a wizard or cleric, they can perform almost any role; like a fighter, they can fulfill their role without resorting to magic.

Alignment: Any. Lawful veterans tend to have a rigourous conviction, while chaotic veterans instead have an erratic zeal and neutral ones a dispassionate resolve. Either way, the result is much the same.

Religion: Veterans tend to shun divine might much as they shun arcane might. They usually worship no deities, though any deity who resolves to use their magic as little as possible might earn a veteran's respect.

Background: Veterans are usually the result of tragic experiences and grim determination. Despite the name, veterans don't need experience of any long-winded wars.

Races: Veterans tend to be humans - quick learners at the worst of times - elves (who have had an eternity to master the ways of war, or dwarves, who are still convinced that the old-fashioned method of fighting ("Hit it with a hammer") is the best. Raptorans are also fairly common, as they don't know what all this fuss surrounding magical flight is about.

Other Classes: While fiercely competitive with spellcasters and forbidden from accepting their direct aid, veterans haven't really any enmity towards them. Other martial classes tend to respect the veteran's devotion, though wonder if eschewing all magic isn't a little mad.

Role: Everything. Veterans have the versatility of a wizard or cleric.

Adaptation: A veteran in a technologically-advanced setting could be a traditionalist who gives up modern technology instead of, or as well as, magic, refusing to operate anything much more complicated than a musket or a bicycle in design.


The Veteran


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special

Overcome Wounds



1st
+1
+2
+2
+2
Veteran Trick, Shrug Off, Resilience, Righteous Desperation, Trained for War

0



2nd
+2
+3
+3
+3
Veteran Trick

0



3rd
+3
+3
+3
+3
Veteran Trick

0



4th
+4
+4
+4
+4
Veteran Trick

0



5th
+5
+4
+4
+4
Veteran Trick

0



6th
+6/+1
+5
+5
+5
Veteran Trick

1



7th
+7/+2
+5
+5
+5
Veteran Trick

1



8th
+8/+3
+6
+6
+6
Veteran Trick

2



9th
+9/+4
+6
+6
+6
Veteran Trick

2



10th
+10/+5
+7
+7
+7
Veteran Trick

3



11th
+11/+6/+1
+7
+7
+7
Veteran Trick

3



12th
+12/+7/+2
+8
+8
+8
Veteran Trick

4



13th
+13/+8/+3
+8
+8
+8
Veteran Trick

4



14th
+14/+9/+4
+9
+9
+9
Veteran Trick

5



15th
+15/+10/+5
+9
+9
+9
Veteran Trick

5



16th
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+10
+10
Veteran Trick

6



17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+10
Veteran Trick

6



18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+11
+11
Veteran Trick

7



19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+11
Veteran Trick

7



20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+12
+12
Veteran Trick

8



Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d12

Class Skills:
All class skills except for Truespeak (Int), Use Magic Device (Cha) and Use Psionic Device (Cha) are class skills of the veteran. Veterans' power comes from their conviction, and part of that is their vow never to use magic.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armour Proficiency
Veterans are proficient with every type of weapon, armour or shield ever to come to be.

Veteran Trick (Ex)
At each level, a veteran gains veteran tricks. The veteran gains 1 veteran trick per level up to and including fourth, two per level for the next four, and so forth. Veteran tricks are detailed in their own section.

Trained for War
The veteran's veteran levels and fighter levels stack to determine effective fighter level (but not effective veteran level).

Shrug Off
Veterans can Shrug Off abilities which would hinder, incapacitate or even kill lesser beings. Shrugging Off an ability does not take an action any more than choosing a target to attack does; it is simply a thing that one does, or one does not.

A veteran who Shrugs Off an effect ignores it. It does not affect the veteran at all, even if it affects an area (irrespective of, for example, whether or not the veteran enters, leaves, and then re-enters an area). However, it still affects other people: the effect is still there, unlike with more magical means of removing an effect such as Dispel Magic or Iron Heart Surge. The source of the effect may still be there, even if the effect itself isn't (for example, a windstorm is still there even if the veteran isn't checked by it, and will automatically check the veteran again next round). Similarly, a veteran can't Shrug Off death by hit point damage, as the veteran would simply die again immedately. This makes the many effects on the table below unlikely at best to come up but they are included for completeness.

The veteran may Shrug Off an effect in progress, or even one which hasn't taken effect yet (for example, a veteran could Shrug Off a spell's effect upon being struck by it, ignoring it, even if that veteran wasn't aware of the spell until it dealt its effects). Veterans incapable of experiencing the world, such as those who are Dead, Petrified or Unconscious, can't Shrug Off effects. Those who are merely distracted, incapable of acting, or suffering sensory impairment (such as those who are Fascinated, Stunned or simultaneously Blinded and Deafened) can still Shrug Off further effects.

However, Shrugging Off an effect costs hit points. These hit points are dependent on the severity of the effect being Shrugged Off. Further, if the effect is permanent (except for spell effects and effects which are always or usually permanent), triple the number of hit points needed to remove it. A veteran can't Shrug Off an effect if doing so would kill the veteran. Use the following table to determine the hit point cost:



Effect

Cost



Ability Damaged

5/point



Ability Drained/Burned

15/point



Blinded

10



Blown Away*

20



Checked

10



Confused

10



Dazed

10



Dazzled

2



Dead*

50



Deafened

10



Disabled

20



Dying

30



Energy Drained

10/level



Entangled

10



Grappling*

5



Knocked Down*

15



Paralysed

20



Petrified

30



Pinned*

5



Prone*

5



Spell Lv 0**

3



Spell Lv 1**

6



Spell Lv 2**

13



Spell Lv 3**

21



Spell Lv 4**

30



Spell Lv 5**

40



Spell Lv 6**

51



Spell Lv 7**

63



Spell Lv 8**

76



Spell Lv 9**

90



Spell Level 10th**

100



Spell Level 11th***

111



Spell Level 12th***

123



Spell Level 13th***

136



Stable

20



Staggered

20



Stunned*

20



Unconscious

As stable/dying



*These effects can only be Shrugged Off before they take effect, due to one of three reasons: One, that they less are conditions and more cause them, two, that once the ability takes hold the veteran won't be able to Shrug them Off, or three, because simply being hard enough to prevent yourself falling down is one thing; being hard enough to go from being on the ground to on your feet in no time at all is another.
**This also covers (Sp) and (Ps) abilities, powers, and martial maneuvers.
***As **, and also these abilities tend not to exist, but a few classes such as the Worldspeaker have them. To find any spell level higher than 13th, add the new spell level to the previous number (for example, the 13th level value is calculated by adding 13 to the 12th level value).

Resilience (Ex)
Veterans are tougher than tough. They reduce any lethal or nonlethal damage they take by 1 per level. This powerful effect will simply negate damage of any type, even special damage such as vile damage. If the damage dealt by an ability is of multiple types, the veteran can choose which type of damage to ignore, or some of each (for example, a fireball with energy admixture (cold) deals both fire and cold damage. A veteran of 4th level could ignore 3 cold and 1 fire damage, not that it's likely to matter). Even untyped damage can be prevented in this way, but some damage results directly from divine power and can't be prevented by any means. That doesn't stop a veteran from reducing any accompanying damage of other types.


Righteous Desperation (Ex)
"Watch me draw a line in the sand. Watch me make my final stand. For I know the ways of war, and I will never stop until my last breath; that is the path we tread."

Veterans are masters of improvisation, of getting by, of making do with what they have, and this stems from their conviction, their vow never to use magic. Such is the way of the veteran.

A veteran who looks about for an improvised weapon to use can as a standard action take a search check whose DC is equal to the price of the item in gold pieces. Passing this check means the Veteran finds (and can pick up as part of the check) an improvised weapon of the type for which the veteran is looking. Veterans never take a penalty for wielding an improvised weapon, although the improvised weapons found in this way are usually fragile, and break within a number of uses equal to 10, plus the number by which the search check DC was beaten.

Veterans might easily not be able to find anything they can fashion into a weapon of the correct type, but unless they are in a barren plain they can probably find something vaguely weapon-shaped.

Similarly, a veteran can find objects which function as tools, shields, and so forth in a similar manner. Again, they will break after the same number of uses as the weapon might and the veteran gets no penalty for using them.

Further, a veteran is immune to fear, sickness and tiredness effects (such as shaken, frightened, terrified, cowering, sickened, nauseated, fatigued and exhausted).

However, the veteran's guile and wit, their devotion and their motivation, all stem from the meaningfulness of the vow: the veteran cannot deliberately and knowingly use magic, psionics, martial strikes or stances, supernatural abilities, or magic or psionic items. They cannot accept direct magical or psionic aid to their person (Fireballing their foes doesn't count), and must take any save against that aid that is given to them. They are encouraged to shun those who repeatedly give them unwanted aid of this nature, and preferably all magic, but this is not actually required and veterans don't bear any particular enmity towards spellcasters, psionicists or initiators.

A veteran who breaks this vow feels mentally shattered by the transgression, and loses the conviction that fuels veteran abilities (other than class skills, proficiency, and hit dice). These other abilities are regained at a rate of one level per day by adventuring normally as a glorified warrior ("Normally" is subjective, but no attempt should be made to avoid combat beyond the usual measure). For example, an eighth-level veteran who breaks the vow can use a single veteran trick after one day of adventuring, and seven after six days of adventuring. These days don't need to be consecutive. New veteran tricks can be selected in this way, though it would have been faster to relearn them normally!

A creature who gets the vow from somewhere else other than a class loses all class abilities if they break the vow, and needs to recover them in the same way. Creatures such as factotums who steal the ability are only affected by breaking the vow for the duration of the ability that copies it.

Overcome Wounds (Ex)
A veteran of at least 6th level is very hard to kill, and no wound inflicted on them hinders them long. They gain fast healing as given on Table: The Veteran.


Learning Veteran Tricks
"You learn a lot of things. You do a lot of things. Then you forget a lot of things, and learn new ones."

Learning a veteran trick works essentially exactly the same as learning a feat; indeed, they work in nearly the exact same way as feats, they just can't be taken as actual feats. You learn them when you gain the relevant level, and then retain them for use later.

The main difference is that it's a lot easier for a veteran to pick up new tricks. Indeed, once per day a veteran can simply pick up a trick that is useful in the current situation. However, he must choose and discard a previous veteran trick to do this. A veteran can do this once more per day for each four levels after first: at high levels, a veteran can near-constantly be learning on-the-spot to handle almost anything as and when it comes up.

Most veteran tricks can only be taken once.

Veteran tricks are listed here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428437-quot-Stand-back-boy-and-let-me-show-you-war!-quot-%283-5-class-PEACH%29&p=19553066#post19553066)

[nikkoli]

First off, this is pretty great I think. I am going to see if my gm lets me use this.
How about a talent that can grant natural armor, flluffed around how they have seen war and bear its scars and their flesh has grown accustomed to the beatings.
Or Awesome blow, requiring Wallcrash, that would be fun.
Or spell resistance, they refuse magic so much that it just stops working on them.(edit: and power resist too)

That's all I've got for the moment, but i will try to keep up with it and think of more. :smallbiggrin:

[nonsi]

Notice that Shrug Off + Veteran Trick + skill & gear galore make this class extremely dippy for noncasters.
In what kind of settings (i.e. which other classes) do you intend to incorporate your Veteran class?

How does a veteran function in situations that require teleportation, flight, restoration, revival, de-petrifaction etc?

[The_Final_Stand]

This looks awesome. Suggestion: some Trick that lets them jump, climb, or otherwise maneuver themselves upwards.



How does a veteran function in situations that require teleportation, flight, restoration, revival, de-petrifaction etc?

In order: what situation needs you to teleport that can't be accomplished by walking? Or sprinting, as the case may be.
Depending on the situation, Wingclipping fliers, or jumping.
Healing Hands for hitpoint damage, poison and disease. Advice to find someone who cares about stupid things like reprogramming reality with their minds, since clearly that's how you got into this mess in other cases.
Disdainful muttering about what a waste of human/elven/dwarven etc. life.
Pointing and telling the nerd to do his hand-wavey mumbo-jumbo.

[Jormengand]

Nikkoli:

Scars of War
Your skin is tough enough to withstand a beating
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You gain a natural armour bonus to armour class equal to 1, plus 1 per 3 veteran levels.

Unbound Feat
Alas, poor epic fighter.
Prerequisites: Veteran level 11th.
Benefit: You can take any feat, even if you don't qualify for it. You can even take epic feats with this trick.
Special: You can take this trick more than once.

Magic Resistance
You have started to resist the magic of your enemies
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You gain SR and PR 6+level, or increase your current SR and PR by 5.
Special: This talent can be taken more than once. Its effects stack.

Nonsi:

I imagine that "You cannot accept magical aid or use magical items or you fall" bit would discourage dipping. Because veteran without magic items is better than fighter without magic items, there's no point taking veteran levels if you aren't going to take nothing but veteran levels.

I figured that veteran could show up in nearly any "Magic is supreme" setting short of the Tippyverse (where they inevitably get their butts handed to them because, uh, it's the Tippyverse). Basically anything where the fighter kinda gives up around 10th level because nothing he can do can actually help the party, and everyone's running around with magic/psionics/martial magic/vestiges/whatever if they actually want to do something useful.

Find Rift
When mages teleport, they leave behind a small tunnel in space called a "Rift." To enter it accidentally is nigh-impossible, and even doing it deliberately requires much skill.
Prerequisites: Veteran level 9th
Benefit: A veteran can take a knowledge (The planes) check to see whether or not there are any known rifts between the veteran's location and a specific other location. Beating a DC of 30 finds the best, which is about (3d6-3) miles away (0 to 15) from both the start and end locations. Beating a DC of 25 finds the second best, which is about 5d6 miles away at one end (5 to 30) and 3d6-3 from the other. A DC of 20 finds one which is about 5d6 miles away at each end. Beating a DC of 15 finds some rift or other within 10d6 miles (10 to 60) at one end and 5d6 at the other, and a DC of 10 finds a rift which is about 10d6 miles away at each end.

When a rift is found, a veteran can move through it through bodily contortions specific to that rift. This takes one minute to achieve. A veteran who knows the rift's location at this end knows its location at the other end.

A veteran can instruct another creature on how to pass through the rift, but doing so takes five minutes as the veteran painstakingly instructs the other creature on exactly how to move their body.

Interrupting a creature who is trying to move through a rift disorientates them a little and they must start anew, but has no appreciable negative effects.
Special: Rifts are nonmagical and can't be detected magically, except perhaps by epic magic. A rift is usually the effect of planar movement, but sometimes due to repeated teleporting. Either way, a veteran doesn't lose conviction for using one unless a wizard or wizards deliberately teleport until they create a rift.

I don't really like that one, though. It's starting to feel too much like an excuse to be magical.

Craft Flying Machine
You know how to create a simple machine that allows you to fly by body power.
Prerequisites: Craft 8 ranks.
Benefit: With a DC 25 craft check, you can create a flying machine. This consists of a large fixed-wing glider combined with a nonfixed-wing propeller connected to pedals that are used to operate the thing. You can direct the glider with one hand to move with clumsy maneuverability, with two to move at poor maneuverability, or with none to move straight forwards. Either way, you can move up to 30 feet per round as a move action. You can't charge, run or dive. Operating a flying machine requires a DC 10 strength check each round, or the machine falls 30 feet (as well as moving in the intended direction) as you lose control of it.

A flying machine can be collapsed or unfolded in 3 rounds, so that it can be carried easily when not in use.
Special: There's no reason another creature couldn't operate the machine. A flying machine costs 500 GP and weighs 20 lb. Flying machines require a large number of pre-built parts and only actually take 1/5 of the normal time to craft.

Retired veterans tend to become mad inventors.

Not on My Watch
Veterans are responsible for everyone not dying, and they take that responsibility seriously.
Prerequisites: Heal 12 ranks, Healing Hands
Benefit: You are so good at healing that you can heal them after anyone else would pronounce them dead. For 6 hours after someone has obtained the Dead condition, you can use your Healing Hands ability to restore them above -10 hit points, after which they are no longer Dead.


The_Final_Stand: Yeah, sometimes you're not gonna have the answer. But, oh well? Wizards can't resurrect people either. So I basically agree with you. Anyway, have a new flying ability.

Craft Masterwork Flying Machine
You can make a superior flying machine.
Prerequisites: Craft Flying Machine, Craft 10 ranks.
Benefit: You can craft masterwork components for flying machines just as you might for weapons. When you construct a masterwork flying machine, it increases the user's strength check result by 2 just like any other masterwork tool, but also increases the speed to 45 feet and the maneuverability by 1 step. They can be collapsed or unfolded in just 2 rounds.

[cavalieredraghi]

I like the looks and feel of this class. though are there possible tricks that may be able to be incorporated in a sci-fi meets magic type world?

[Jormengand]

I like the looks and feel of this class. though are there possible tricks that may be able to be incorporated in a sci-fi meets magic type world?

I've added a fluff section at the beginning.

Also, I need an extra post to fit all these tricks in, which I'll post in a moment.

[Jormengand]

List of Veteran Tricks
http://pre04.deviantart.net/3dfa/th/pre/f/2013/200/7/5/last_man_standing_by_zac_k-d6e8i5w.jpg
Last Man Standing by Zac K
"I know how to lead a hundred men, or to stand on my own when all is lost, or to sneak through an abandoned house or to kill a man half a mile away, or to make or break a trap or to leap from a roof without harm. What do you know? How to wave your hands about and make magic."

The following are the veteran tricks available to a veteran. Note that if the veteran is being used in the Pathfinder roleplaying system, all skill requirements should be reduced by 3.

Always Strike First
You are lightning fast, and none can match your speed.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You can't be surprised; if there's a surprise round, you can always act in it. You always go first in the initiative order.
Special: Two or more veterans with this trick roll normally to determine which acts first, but all act before anyone else in the combat.

Animal Companion
You acquire an unusually powerful animal who is fiercely loyal to you.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: This trick works just like the druid class feature of the same name, except that the veteran can't share spells with it and it only takes 3 hours' searching for a new animal to find such a creature.
Special: You can take this trick more than once. Its effects do not stack normally. Instead, the veteran's effective level for the animal companion is increased by 3. If the rules in the Epic Level Handbook are not in play, this trick can be taken no more than 6 times (at which point a companion from the level - 15 list treats the veteran as being of whatever level the veteran actually is).

Armour Master
You are adept at moving about even fully armoured
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You take no penalties for wearing armour or using a shield. For example, you don't take an armour check penalty and you can run at full speed.
Special: This doesn't protect you against curses, or breaking your vow. A shield, of course, still takes up the hand that holds it as normal.

Battlesense
You have an instinctive awareness of everything about you.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You have blindsight out to 30 feet.
Special: This trick can be taken multiple times; the range of the blindsight stacks.

Bonus Feats
Alas, poor fighter.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You choose three feats for which you qualify and gain their benefits, including being able to use them as prerequisites. You must qualify for them normally.
Special: You can take this trick more than once. You can use multiple instances, or even a single instance, of the trick to take the same feat more than once, if you could do so normally.

Brewmaster
You can create even more special items.
Prerequisites: Herbalist, Craft (Alchemy) 8 ranks.
Benefit: You can create additional powerful items. You also get a +10 bonus on craft (Alchemy) checks.

Envoy Firework: DC 30 to make. An envoy firework can be used as a weapon, dealing just 2d6 fire damage and 2d6 bludgeoning damage on impact if it even hits a creature in the first instance, but that's not really the point. Envoy fireworks are packed with explosive of high enough quality to send them either a steady 4 miles/level, or you can create a more risky explosive that will send the firework up to 2d6 miles/level. Either way, the envoy firework takes 10 minutes to reach its destination, and can send anything that can fit in the small compartment inside it - this usually entails something of the calibre of a small book, or a dagger, some deadly poison, and a note. The envoy firework isn't in condition to send back.

Of course, the decent damage and long range make an envoy firework a possible long-ranged artillery weapon, especially if you put something more dangerous (such as some explosives on a 10 minute and 6 second timer) inside. That's your call.
Explosives: DC 30 to make each set. Explosives can be linked together and linked to the user by a fuse cord, allowing them to be detonated from a safe location and all at once. Alternatively, they can be put on a timer.

When detonated, explosives deal 1d6 damage per level, half fire and half force, within 60 feet.
Poison Gas Grenade: DC 30 to make. Fired just like exploding potion. Fort against 1d6 str 1d6 con/1 str 1 con.
Stun Grenade: DC 25 to make. Fired just like exploding potion, those in 20 feet take 1 sonic/level, fort vs deafened 1 minute/level, reflex vs blinded 1 minute/level, on both failed stunned 1 round/level.

Champion of the Common Man
You are an inspiration to the people, and they are always ready to fight for you.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You can enlist the service of those commoners with the same number or fewer hit dice than you to fight for your cause. You can enlist a number of commoners whose total hit dice are not double yours. A commoner enlisted in this way retrains all their commoner levels as warrior levels. They also gain the righteous desperation class feature, and breaking their vow removes their newfound warrior abilities and returns them to commonerhood, and they can't be enlisted in this way for one week if they do so. Either way, they regress back to being a commoner at a rate of one level per day if released from your command.

Enlisted creatures are treated as fanatical to you. If this isn't possible, they are treated as helpful and will also obey your commands much as though they were fanatical.

Combat Coup
You can make coups de grace against opponents you're fighting.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You can Coup de Grace nonhelpless creatures, you can do so from up to 30 feet away, you can make Coups de Grace even against normally-immune foes, and making one doesn't take an attack of opportunity.
Special: If the target is immune to critical hits, resolve the Coup de Grace anyway; it's just not a critical hit.

Combat Maneuver Master
You are a legend at performing special attacks.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You gain the benefits of the following feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Improved Overrun, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple. You also get a +5 bonus on your attack roll to perform cleaves, bull rushes, sunders, overruns, disarms, trips, and grapples as well as +5 bonus to any additional rolls needed to perform any of these actions, or a feint, successfully.
Special: You can use these feats as prerequisites, but you can't retrain them or use spells such as Embrace the Dark Chaos to remove them. An effect that would remove one of these feats, short of removing the veteran trick itself, fails.

Counterattack
You can defend against enemies' attacks and strike back with your own.
Prerequisites: Veteran level 6th.
Benefit: The veteran gains the ability to counter attacks. As an immediate action, the veteran prevents one attack that would be made against the veteran, and makes one against the would-be-assailant. This can be done from any range, but can only defend against attacks which must roll to hit.
Special: A veteran can counter an attack regardless of ability or inability to attack back. If the veteran can't complete the counterattack, this doesn't stop an attack being prevented. Similarly, a veteran is under no obligation to attack even if capable of doing so.

Craft Flying Machine
You know how to create a simple machine that allows you to fly by body power.
Prerequisites: Craft 8 ranks.
Benefit: With a DC 25 craft check, you can create a flying machine. This consists of a large fixed-wing glider combined with a nonfixed-wing propeller connected to pedals that are used to operate the thing. You can direct the glider with one hand to move with clumsy maneuverability, with two to move at poor maneuverability, or with none to move straight forwards. Either way, you can move up to 30 feet per round as a move action. You can't charge, run or dive. Operating a flying machine requires a DC 10 strength check each round, or the machine falls 30 feet (as well as moving in the intended direction) as you lose control of it.

A flying machine can be collapsed or unfolded in 3 rounds, so that it can be carried easily when not in use.
Special: There's no reason another creature couldn't operate the machine. A flying machine costs 500 GP and weighs 20 lb. Flying machines require a large number of pre-built parts and only actually take 1/5 of the normal time to craft.

Craft Masterwork Flying Machine
You can make a superior flying machine.
Prerequisites: Craft Flying Machine, Craft 10 ranks.
Benefit: You can craft masterwork components for flying machines just as you might for weapons. When you construct a masterwork flying machine, it increases the user's strength check result by 2 just like any other masterwork tool, but also increases the speed to 45 feet and the maneuverability by 1 step. They can be collapsed or unfolded in just 2 rounds.

Death Mark
Your attacks mark enemies for death.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: When you attack an enemy, if you hit, you mark them for death. Their armour class is reduced by 2 for each death mark they have (Death marks stack). A creature with one or more death marks is always a viable target for a sneak attack, but if they couldn't be sneak attacked anyway, the sneak attack is limited to one die per death mark on the creature.
Special: A creature can remove a death mark with three rounds' rest.

Defender
You can block attacks headed for your allies.
Prerequisites: Counterattack, Sudden Movement
Benefit: You can move suddenly and counter an attack as the same immediate action to block an attack that would have hit an ally. To do this, you must interpose yourself between the attacker and the target. The attack is then countered just as though it was aiming for you.

Disappearance
You can disappear into thin air by distracting your foes and hiding.
Prerequisites: Hide 8 ranks.
Benefit: You can hide even while being observed. You can hide as a swift action. You can move while hidden.

Dominating Shout
You can rattle a creature so badly that they follow your commands.
Prerequisites: Intimidate 12 ranks.
Benefit: You can intimidate creatures normally immune to fear, and creatures don't get morale bonuses against intimidation attempts by you. If you pass an intimidate check of any type by 10 or more, you rattle the creature so much that they live in fear of your wrath for one day per level. Their terrifying experience haunts every waking moment, and they are shaken for the duration, but it also makes them fiercely loyal to you. They will obey any command you give them, even if that command puts them in immediate danger.

A will save with a DC equal to the amount you passed by negates the effect.
Special: You still can't intimidate mindless creatures, but you can intimidate those immune to mind-affecting abilities.

Escape Death
You're very hard to kill.
Prerequisites: Veteran level 8th
Benefit: If you're killed, you turn out not to have been dead and wake up 3d6 minutes later at 1 hit point (although your fast healing will quickly give you more). To all inspection, you are still dead for those minutes. If you die three times in a single 24-hour period, your body finally finally gives in and you don't get up.

Find Planar Rift
Between any two planes that are connected, there are countless rifts that allow for one simply to walk through, though to do so by accident would be almost an achievement as they require very specific negotiation.
Prerequisites: Veteran level 13th, Find Rift
Benefit: A veteran can take a knowledge (The planes) check to see whether or not there are any known planar rifts between the veteran's plane and a specific other plane. Beating a DC of 30 finds the closest, which is about (3d6-3) miles away (0 to 15). Beating a DC of 20 finds the second closest, which is about 5d6 miles away (5 to 30). Beating a DC of 10 finds some planar rift or other within 10d6 miles (10 to 60).

When a planar rift is found, a veteran can move through it through bodily contortions specific to that rift. This takes one minute to achieve, and planar rifts lead to a specific location on the other plane; a veteran who knows the rift's location on this plane knows its location on the other plane.

A veteran can instruct another creature on how to pass through the rift, but doing so takes five minutes as the veteran painstakingly instructs the other creature on exactly how to move their body.

Interrupting a creature who is trying to move through a rift disorientates them a little and they must start anew, but has no appreciable negative effects.
Special: Planar rifts are nonmagical and can't be detected magically, except perhaps by epic magic. Even in demiplanes or dead magic planes, there are planar rifts. A planar rift is usually the effect of planar movement, but sometimes due to repeated plane shifting. Either way, a veteran doesn't lose conviction for using one unless a wizard or wizards deliberately plane shift until they create a planar rift.

Find Rift
When mages teleport, they leave behind a small tunnel in space called a "Rift." To enter it accidentally is nigh-impossible, and even doing it deliberately requires much skill.
Prerequisites: Veteran level 9th
Benefit: A veteran can take a knowledge (The planes) check to see whether or not there are any known rifts between the veteran's location and a specific other location. Beating a DC of 30 finds the best, which is about (3d6-3) miles away (0 to 15) from both the start and end locations. Beating a DC of 25 finds the second best, which is about 5d6 miles away at one end (5 to 30) and 3d6-3 from the other. A DC of 20 finds one which is about 5d6 miles away at each end. Beating a DC of 15 finds some rift or other within 10d6 miles (10 to 60) at one end and 5d6 at the other, and a DC of 10 finds a rift which is about 10d6 miles away at each end.

When a rift is found, a veteran can move through it through bodily contortions specific to that rift. This takes one minute to achieve. A veteran who knows the rift's location at this end knows its location at the other end.

A veteran can instruct another creature on how to pass through the rift, but doing so takes five minutes as the veteran painstakingly instructs the other creature on exactly how to move their body.

Interrupting a creature who is trying to move through a rift disorientates them a little and they must start anew, but has no appreciable negative effects.
Special: Rifts are nonmagical and can't be detected magically, except perhaps by epic magic. A rift is usually the effect of planar movement, but sometimes due to repeated teleporting. Either way, a veteran doesn't lose conviction for using one unless a wizard or wizards deliberately teleport until they create a rift.

Full Attacker
You can make your full complement of attacks rapidly
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You can make a full attack as a standard action, or as part of a charge. You can make a full attack twice as a full action.

Great Reach
You can reach further than usual.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You can reach 5 feet further in each direction than normal - for example, a medium veteran with a greatsword can attack creatures 10 feet away or in the veteran's own square, while the same veteran with a glaive can attack creatures five to fifteen feet away.

You can also make any number of attacks of opportunity each round.

Headslam
You are capable of making spellcasters forget some of their spells with a handy knock to the head.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: A Headslam attack must be made as a full-round action, and you take a -5 penalty on the attack roll, but it ignores the wielder's armour (shields apply normally, and if the creature is wearing some kind of helmet it gives them a +2 armour bonus to armour class which is not ignored in this way). A Headslam that hits the target successfully is a critical hit. It also causes a spellcaster to lose some of their spells. A spellcaster who is Headslammed successfully loses 1d3 spells of each level they can cast; if they've run out of spells from a level they lose spells from the one below instead. Prepared casters lose random spells.

Any psionic creature who is Headslammed loses psionic focus. They also lose half their current psi points if they weren't focused, and one third if they were.

A creature who uses spell-like, psi-like or supernatural abilities (except supernatural maneuvers; see below instead) with some restriction on their use (including non-specific restrictions such as a Truenamer's Law of Resistance) is treated as having used each one a single time.

Martial Initiators who are Headslammed lose all their readied maneuvers. This doesn't stop them recovering them normally.
Special: A Headslam works even if it doesn't deal any damage. That said, you can Headslam a creature just to deal normal critical hit damage (though the Combat Coup trick might be better for this). You can Headslam a creature with a ranged weapon, but only if they're within 30 feet.

Creatures immune to critical hits, and creatures who don't actually have heads to speak of, can still be Headslammed: in the former case it's not a critical hit. In the latter, you hit whichever part of their body does the thinking, or equivalent.

Healing Hands
You are talented at healing creatures' wounds.
Prerequisites: Heal 4 ranks.
Benefit: You can, by spending a minute to heal a creature, restore hit points equal to the heal check result. You can also cure the effects of poison or disease by using your heal check in place of the fortitude save against the normal DC.
Special: If you're interrupted or choose not to take a full minute, you instead heal 1/10 of the normal number of hit points for each round you spent healing. For example, a veteran who would heal 36 hit points but is interrupted after 2 rounds instead restores only 7. Because the instances are counted holistically, not separately, they are rounded down together, not individually.

Veterans can heal themselves like this.

Herbalist
You can make some all-natural concoctions which aid the drinker... or explode, of course.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You can use Craft (Alchemy) despite not being a spellcaster. The results are always nonmagical. You can also craft some interesting items which others cannot, taking 10 minutes to achieve. The save DC against these effects is 10, plus half the veteran's level, plus the veteran's intelligence modifier.

Deadly Poison: DC 20 to make, injury or ingested, fort. vs death/4d6 con.
Exploding Potion: DC 20 to make, when thrown (range incr. 10 ft) or used in sling/crossbow/ballista etc. explodes 40 feet, dealing 1d6/lv fire to target and 1/lv fire to others in area, sets everything flammable in area ablaze, fire spreads at 20 ft/round.
Healing Salve: Restores 1d6 HP and 1 ability score per level. Permanent drain is removed by sacrificing 4 points of damage removal (so at level 8, can remove 3 CON damage 5 INT damage, or 1 STR drain 4 DEX damage, or 1 WIS drain 1 CHA drain, for example).
Ignition Paste: DC 10 to make, burns for 1 minute/level when lit, on weapon adds 1d6 fire damage. Enough to cover 1 weapon or 50 ammo. Can also be used for anything else you might want 1 minute/level fire for (eg put it in a sling and throw the entire thing, sling and all, through someone's window?).
Rage Brew: DC 15 to make. Imbiber rages as barbarian of own level; only effective 1/day per person.
Sticky Paste: DC 10 to make. Very slightly sticky (like a post-it or old tape) until activated as standard action, then becomes very sticky; anyone who touches it is stuck to it. Loses its stick after 1 minute/level. Dealing it 10 points of fire damage destroys it. Can also be used to stick inanimate objects together, though the short duration might not make this the best idea.

Heroic Killing Blow
You can kill anything you can hit.
Prerequisites: Killing Blow
Benefit: Any hit you make is automatically resolved as a successful coup de grace, even though it's not necessarily a critical hit.
Special: Just like the coups de grace from combat coup, these coups de grace ignore critical immunity: the coup de grace is still resolved, it's just not a critical hit.

Horsemanship
You are a skilled rider.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You gain the benefits of the following feats: Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Trample. In addition, when you charge an opponent while mounted, if you have remaining movement distance you keep going and can run them down with your mount, just as though the mount were trying to overrun them, and had the improved overrun feat, though it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity and can't be knocked prone even if it fails. Further, the mount gains a special circumstance bonus equal to your strength modifier if you hit with your charge attack.

If your mount runs the foe down, you may then continue to move, and may continue to charge another target if there exists one who you can reach with your remaining move. You can, if you have enough movement, keep charging subsequent targets. You do not get to turn to charge a new target unless you had another way of turning during your charge.

Incorporeal Bane
Your weapon cuts through even ghosts and spirits.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: Your attacks function absolutely normally against incorporeal and even ethereal creatures, the force of your blow carrying through much like a force effect.
Special: Your attacks are treated as force effects for anything related to incorporeality and etherealness.

Instant Identify
You know what an item does just by looking at it.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You know what an item does just by looking at it. This includes its functions and how to activate them, its current hit point total, whether or not it is a cursed item, and anything else that is to do with an item's functionality, capabilities, or usage.
Special: This doesn't just apply to items that you can pick up and use, but also to houses, bridges, castles, and so forth.

Iron Mind
You are able to resist powerful spells of control.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You are simply immune to divinations, enchantments, illusions and telepathies. You do not show up in scrying spells.

Jump Master
You are a master of jumping in all situations.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You can Slow Fall any distance just like a monk does. Even if there's nothing for you to grab, you only take half damage from a fall. You can jump while grappling if you take the "Move while grappling" option. You can try to escape the grapple once during your jump as a free action; if you do your opponent falls and you complete the jump rather than moving into an adjacent space.

Killing Blow
You know how to score a deadly hit on a foe even in normal combat.
Prerequisites: Combat Coup
Benefit: Every critical hit you strike is automatically resolved as a successful coup de grace.
Special: This is useless if your foe is immune to critical hits, even though Combat Coup works normally.

Leopard Sprint
You can move at lightning speed for a short time
Prerequisites: Sudden Movement
Benefit: Once per minute, you can put on a massive burst of speed, moving 10 times your movement speed as a full-round action.
Special: If you have the Run feat, you move 12 times as far instead. If you're wearing heavy armour (and don't have an ability such as Armour Mastery which negates the penalty for doing so) you move 8 times as fast instead. If both are the case, you just move 10 times as fast.

Loyal Companion
You can obtain a companion on the field of war.
Prerequisites: Veteran level 6th.
Benefit: You obtain the service of an unusually strong cohort to aid you on the field of war. This cohort works much like the one from the Leadership feat, with a few exceptions. First, the cohort cannot take levels in any class with the righteous desperation class feature. Second, the cohort acquires the righteous desperation class feature as though they had levels in such a class. Third, the cohort is always of the veteran's own level, and doesn't gain experience separately.

Master at Arms
You can use any weapon proficiently
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Whenever you are wielding two weapons, you can wield them as though you had any feat with the words "Two-weapon fighting" in them as long as you meet the non-feat prerequisites. Whenever you are wielding a non-reach melee weapon in two hands (whether it is two-handed or not) you gain the benefits of the Power Attack feat. Whenever you're wielding a reach weapon, you gain the benefits of the combat reflexes feat. Whenever you're wielding a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other, you gain the benefits of combat expertise (even if you don't meet the prerequisite) and improved shield bash. If you're unarmed, you gain the benefits of improved unarmed strike. If you have a ranged weapon, you gain the benefits of point blank shot. If you're wielding a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, you gain the benefit of weapon finesse.
Special: You are treated as having the benefit of the above feats for purposes of prerequisites, but any feat contingent on one of these feats is lost temporarily when you don't meet the correct conditions. For example, if you selected stunning fist using master at arms as the prerequisite, then you could not apply it to an attack with your left hand if you held a sword in your right.

Magic Resistance
You have started to resist the magic of your enemies
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You gain SR and PR 6+level, or increase your current SR and PR by 5.
Special: This talent can be taken more than once. Its effects stack.

Martial Artist
You are a powerful martial artist.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You gain the unarmed strike bonus and flurry of blows of the monk. You also get the monk's AC bonus.
Special: These abilities function in as much armour as you like but not with a shield.

Master of Disguise
You can change your disguise at a moment's notice.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You can disguise once per round as a free action. You get a +10 bonus on disguise checks.

Mortal Wound
Your attacks are difficult to heal and impossible to resist.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Your attacks with any kind of weapon always do the full complement of damage, regardless of damage reduction, resistances, or any other clever way your opponent can think of to reduce the damage you deal. You can deal lethal or nonlethal damage entirely at your option, even if an opponent has a special ability such as regeneration which would normally stop you.

Any damage, lethal or nonlethal, that you deal should be tracked separately. This damage is impervious to magical healing and can only heal naturally or through other nonmagical action (including by the giving of long-term care).
Special: There's nothing to stop you missing due to cover, concealment, or simply failing to beat your foe's AC.

Not on My Watch
Veterans are responsible for everyone not dying, and they take that responsibility seriously.
Prerequisites: Heal 12 ranks, Healing Hands
Benefit: You are so good at healing that you can heal creatures after anyone else would pronounce them dead. For 6 hours after someone has obtained the Dead condition, you can use your Healing Hands ability to restore them above -10 hit points, after which they are no longer Dead.

Paragon
You have more raw ability in one or more areas.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You gain a +4 perfection bonus divided as you wish between any number of ability scores.
Special: You can take this trick more than once. Its effects stack.

Perfect Aim
You can shoot past cover to strike foes you can barely see.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You ignore all cover and concealment with any type of attack you make.
Special: Your opponent might still be invisible to you.

Resolute Shout
Your shouts daze enemies who hear them.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: As a standard action, you can unleash a Resolute Shout. An enemy who hears the Resolute Shout is stunned for 2 rounds. A fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + strength modifier) negates this effect.

Roy's Gambit
You can bring an entire building crashing down on someone with sufficient application of force.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) 4 ranks.
Benefit: When in a building, cave, or other structure (natural or artificial) with some covering analogous to a ceiling, you can take a Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) (DC 15) check to identify d6+2 points in the structure which together support the ceiling. If you can cause an impact against each one of these points, you can cause the ceiling to collapse, resolved exactly as a cave-in. You must choose an area of the ceiling to collapse before rolling for where the structure points are. If you're in the area, you can rush to the edge of it as an immediate action, but if you do, you can't take actions at all next round (you may still use more efficient ways to escape if you have them.
Special: That's how you use your intelligence score in combat, dumbass!

Scars of War
Your skin is tough enough to withstand a beating
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You gain a natural armour bonus to armour class equal to 1, plus 1 per 3 veteran levels.

Skilled
You are simply more skilful than others of your kind
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You retroactively and forevermore increase the veteran's skill points per level by 4 (16 at first level). You spend these extra skill points immediately, even though you couldn't normally spend them at this time. Further, you get a +1 bonus on all skill checks and treat all skills as trained.
Special: You must remember which skill points are a result of this veteran trick in case it is lost or swapped out. You can take this trick more than once; its effects, where relevant, stack.

Snap Out of it!
You can allow people to regain control over themselves.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You can negate the effect of an enchantment, illusion or telepathy by shouting at someone to snap out of it. This takes a swift action, as it's a little more strenuous than actually talking.
Special: Obviously, you can't end instantaneous effects like Phantasmal Killer.

Snap Shooter
You can shoot enemies who are distracted
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You gain the benefits of the Quick Draw feat, and you can make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, and don't provoke them for using one. Your threatened area is increased to the range of your weapon (or a weapon such as a throwing weapon that you can draw as a free action) but only for actions other than moving through a threatened space that provoke attacks of opportunity, such as casting a spell.

Sneak Attacker
You can use sneak attacks, and better still, you can use them on anything.
Prerequisites: Veteran level 2nd.
Benefit: The veteran can use the sneak attack and impromptu sneak attack abilities of an arcane trickster of a level equal to the veteran's level. Further, the veteran's sneak attacks do full damage even to targets who'd normally be immune.

Sudden Movement
You are faster than most
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You move twice as fast as normal. You can move up to half your new speed as an immediate action. You don't provoke attacks of opportunity for moving.
Special: You can move out of the effect of an ability, or out of a creature's attack. This might waste someone's action.

Swimmer
You swim masterfully, and move through water as though it were air even when you hit the bottom.
Prerequisites: Swim 4 ranks.
Benefit: You can hold your breath 10 times as long as normal. You get a +10 bonus on swim checks. When you're moving on ground that's under a body of water, the water doesn't slow or impede you.

Terrain Master
You can move through any kind of terrain without issue.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: You don't take any penalties for moving through any type of terrain.

Terrifying Presence
You demoralise your opponents into submission just by your presence.
Prerequisites: Veteran level 4th
Benefit: Your enemies within 120 feet get a -1 penalty on all D20 rolls per 4 levels, and a -1 penalty on damage rolls per 2 levels.
Special: This is not a morale penalty and stacks with morale penalties normally.

Trap Mastery
You know everything there is to know about traps.
Prerequisites: Disable Device 4 ranks.
Benefit: You can find and disable traps in the same manner that a rogue does. You get a +10 bonus to disable device checks, and spot checks taken to notice traps, as well as search and open lock checks to use a bypass method. If you successfully disable a mechanical (non-spell) trap that can reasonably be picked up and moved, you can take it around with you safely, and also re-set it as a full-round action.

You are automatically entitled to a search check to find a trap even if you're not actively searching for it.

The Speed of Light
You can move insanely fast.
Prerequisites: Veteran level 16th, The Speed of Sound.
Benefit: Each turn you can take an extra standard action.
Special: Due to the fact that you invariably have an extra move action, this allows you to take an extra full-round action.

The Speed of Sound
You move faster than eye can see.
Prerequisites: Veteran level 11th
Benefit: You can take an extra swift action and an extra move action each round.
Special: This allows you to take extra immediate actions, and with a source of an extra standard action might entail allowing you another full-round action.

Unbound Feat
Alas, poor epic fighter.
Prerequisites: Veteran level 11th.
Benefit: You can take any feat, even if you don't qualify for it. You can even take epic feats with this trick.
Special: You can take this trick more than once.

Untouchable
You are near-impossible to hit.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You roll any saves twice and take the better result. Creatures attacking you roll the attack roll twice and take the worse result.

Volley of Arrows
You load a ranged weapon with a fistful of ammunition and fire the lot of it at your enemies.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: As a full action, you can make a volley of arrows attack with a ranged weapon. You choose a location within the weapon's maximum range. Everyone within 20 feet of that location takes the weapon's base damage per level. For example, if you're 8th level, wielding a composite longbow (+3 strength bonus) then you'll deal 8d8+24 damage to each creature in the area.
Special: There's no reason you have to use a bow or even a crossbow: slings or even throwing weapons would work. Most firearms aren't suitable for this kind of attack, though.

Wallcrash
You are much better at breaking objects.
Prerequisites: Strength 16+
Benefit: Your strength check result (including the D20 result) for any strength check to break any object (including, for example, walls) is multiplied by 5.

This allows you to pull off some exceptional feats. If you can pass a DC 60 strength check, you can break a Wall of Force, an item made of Riverrine, or a similar force effect. A DC 100 strength check will break pretty much anything.

Wingclip
Despite the name, this allows you to bring even magical flyers to the ground.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: Whenever you strike an opponent with an attack, you may injure them such as to prevent them flying for 1 round/2 levels (minimum 1). If they're actually flying, they fall (though spells such as Fly usually have special riders to prevent the user being damaged in this way).
Special: This doesn't prevent the use of spells like Feather Fall. For the purposes of this trick, any means of becoming airborne for longer than the duration of the actions taken to do so (such as levitation but not jumping) is treated as flight.

You have no power over me!
Enemy wizards find that their abilities aren't quite as good as they think they are.
Prerequisites: Veteran level 10th
Benefit: When the veteran's attack would be blocked, prevented, impeded or interrupted by a spell effect, it isn't.
Special: As normal, this includes powers, spell-like or psi-like abilities, as well as martial maneuvers.

[nikkoli]

Should the Veteran find a way to get an extrodinary version of an enchantment bonus to aid in their greatness and protecting them selves a bit more?

[Jormengand]

Should the Veteran find a way to get an extrodinary version of an enchantment bonus to aid in their greatness and protecting them selves a bit more?

What do you mean by that? You mean like +X weapons and armour? You could always take Paragon to increase your ability scores directly.

[nikkoli]

Yeah, +x to weapon or armor or shield. I may have missed something about beating dr/magic or epic somewhere there, I'm good at missing things like that.

[Jormengand]

Yeah, +x to weapon or armor or shield. I may have missed something about beating dr/magic or epic somewhere there, I'm good at missing things like that.

Mortal Wound allows you to ignore DR, as well as making your attacks really hard to heal.

[nikkoli]

I feel like such a "genius" some days, I missed the ignore DR part of that.

[Business Scrub]

This is really excellent, I'd definitely like to play a class like this. I'd put it at ~Tier 1 level though, but if it's meant to combat T0 classes is that really a bad thing?

You should consider an animal companion Veteran Trick (or perhaps just straight up give them an animal companion). I really like the idea of a grizzled veteran charging into the fight alongside his faithful hound.

[nikkoli]

Fun fact I am infact playing a veteran now. His name is Alfred Hancock and he is a modern character who was warped into my friends setting b/c that's how every line gets there l. Anyway, Mortal Wounds trivializes anything that looks at you wrong, like GG terrasque kind of trivialized. Currently he is level 3 and I shall update you on how this class plays out in a high magic seting.

[Jormengand]

This is really excellent, I'd definitely like to play a class like this. I'd put it at ~Tier 1 level though, but if it's meant to combat T0 classes is that really a bad thing?

You should consider an animal companion Veteran Trick (or perhaps just straight up give them an animal companion). I really like the idea of a grizzled veteran charging into the fight alongside his faithful hound.

It's not a bad thing, because it's designed to be tier 1!

Mm, animal companion or special mount is a possibility. I'll add it in.


Fun fact I am infact playing a veteran now. His name is Alfred Hancock and he is a modern character who was warped into my friends setting b/c that's how every line gets there l. Anyway, Mortal Wounds trivializes anything that looks at you wrong, like GG terrasque kind of trivialized. Currently he is level 3 and I shall update you on how this class plays out in a high magic seting.

Sweet, that'd be nice of you to do that. :smallbiggrin:

[roko10]

It's a good class all around, though I have one question: in a mainly magic setting, does the Veteran fall by using technologically based items, and vice versa?

[Jormengand]

It's a good class all around, though I have one question: in a mainly magic setting, does the Veteran fall by using technologically based items, and vice versa?

No. In general, whichever one of magic and technology is dominant is banned by the veteran. If magitech is dominant, the veteran still probably bans magic. In fact, it's difficult to look at the Craft Flying Machine and Craft Masterwork Flying Machine tricks as being anything but technology.

[nikkoli]

Alfred, my veteran, is a modern mercenary (he is from 2015), he is armed with a .44 revolver an m4 carbine and a shotgun of a variety I cant remember off the top of my head. He is currently employed by necromancer A to get rid of necromancer B because necromancer B is drawing too much attention to necromancy in their general area, and necromancer A doesn't like the competition.
We are gestalt.
The party consists of a Halfdragon ninja//samurai (both pathfinder) (deceased, as of the giant goul in the parking lot), Cleric // inquisitor (both pathfinder) of ugothoya goul (also deceased b/c of the bigger goul in the parking lot), a merralith (racial Class) // belator, a Mage blade (pathfinder magus like thing, from obscure 3pp 3.5 splatbook) // soulknife, and Alfred a veteran // d20 modern dexterity hero using the pathfinder update Game Rules Creations made up.

Alfred is currently stomping across necro B's compound and shooting all of his minions, because zombies and guns and hes seen zombie movies. We then opened the door to the biggest tower and then there was a super goul in there who had A. DR/good B. Fast healing 5 and C. inflict serious being cast on it. Mortal Wounds decided that the goul cant have any of the shines that it was meant to have.

[nikkoli]

Does volley of arrows automatically hit or is it an attack roll or a save for half?

[Jormengand]

Does volley of arrows automatically hit or is it an attack roll or a save for half?

There's no attack roll and no save. You just deal damage.

[nikkoli]

Does being an innately magic race, such as most fey, disqualify you from being a veteran? A guy in my game wants to be an Atomie (pathfinder monster) veteran.

[Jormengand]

Does being an innately magic race, such as most fey, disqualify you from being a veteran? A guy in my game wants to be an Atomie (pathfinder monster) veteran.

No. No race whose existence and presence are not (Su), (Sp), or (Ps), or indeed spells or powers, is disqualified. They must, however, forgo any abilities of one of those types, as well as extraordinary martial maneuvers, to avoid losing their conviction.

[nikkoli]

Does mortal wounds over come Resilience?

[Jormengand]

Does mortal wounds over come Resilience?

Yes. The language in Resilience even specifies that certain things, such as flame strike's special untyped damage that results directly from divine power, overcome Resilience. Mortal Wound, on the other hand, specifies that it overcomes even "Any other clever way your opponent can think of to reduce the damage you deal", such as resilience.

[MatrixStone93]

Sorry if this is a reference to something I don't get over here or haven't yet seen, but why doesn't the italicized writing beneath the first image rhyme?

As for the Veteran, I love it. You are epic, and I wish this forum had some kind of +1 system I could use to let you know how epic you are.

[Jormengand]

Sorry if this is a reference to something I don't get over here or haven't yet seen, but why doesn't the italicized writing beneath the first image rhyme?

As for the Veteran, I love it. You are epic, and I wish this forum had some kind of +1 system I could use to let you know how epic you are.

It's not a reference. It doesn't rhyme simply because it's a poem without a rhyme scheme: it's essentially free verse, though slightly more rigid than that.

Thanks, anyway. :smallbiggrin: Any ideas for veteran tricks you'd like to see?

[Elandris Kajar]

There should be a morale focused party buff where if he hits things, others get a bonus hitting them.

[Jormengand]

There should be a morale focused party buff where if he hits things, others get a bonus hitting them.

Added the Death Mark ability. Not morale focused, but the fluff fits the Veteran better, I think.

[MatrixStone93]

Perhaps something related to getting a bunch of commoners or something on your side, so you can train them into soldiers and allies and make a small squad?

[Jormengand]

Perhaps something related to getting a bunch of commoners or something on your side, so you can train them into soldiers and allies and make a small squad?

I made the "Champion of the Common Man" ability a thing.

[AmberVael]

A lot of the concepts for the Veteran Tricks are fine in theory, but are substantially lacking in prerequisites and far too powerful for their level.


Battlesense: Blindsight is pretty good. I'd restrict this to around 6th level.
Bonus Feats: Any three feats. This is a lot of feats, and isn't limited to a list. Probably a bit much.
Counterattack: This needs more than a once per round limit on it to prevent it from completely shutting down certain attack forms and strategies.
Defender: Wow this needs so much more detail and wording. How far can you move? What if the attacker is adjacent to their target (that is, normal melee conditions?) If you intend for this to just combine and modify its prerequisite tricks, you need to really spell it out.
Dominating Shout: No. Just, yikes no. Boosting skills is easy, and the wording just begs for someone to find a flat DC use of intimidate so they auto succeed on dominating mind-affecting immune enemies for days at a time. Or you could just get swift or move action dominate and spam this, which is also terrifying. Not only should this not be accessible at such a low level, but it needs revamping to prevent abuse.
Full Attacker: The standard action thing? That's fine. Its basically just better pounce. Double full attack though, that's too much. Tome of Battle does the double full attack thing too, and people like it... and its once per encounter, and accessible at 17th level. Consider a Flurry of Blows equivalent instead.
Headslam: The massive impact this trick has is ridiculous. It needs to be toned down in basically every aspect.
Heroic Killing Blow: This is unclear, and probably overpowered. 'Hit' is not proper language. Be clear what the benefit is. Is every attack an automatic hit? Is every hit an automatic critical? Is it just that you provoke a save vs. death on each attack, which is what I think you're going for?
Iron Mind: This is just better Mind Blank. Mind Blank comes online at about level 13 at the earliest (15 normally) and I recommend a comparable prerequisite level. Also, "telepathies" is both not a word, and also a strange immunity to give. How can you even be immune to telepathy, and why would you want to be?
Loyal Companion: Come on, at least make the character act like a normal cohort. Making them equal to your level is nuts.
Mortal Wound: Vague wording is always a bad idea. Define exactly what you want it to bypass and do, else you end up with an ability that turns off the sun. (Making me miss due to high AC reduces my damage, right? :smallamused:)
Paragon: Perfection bonus is not an existing thing. Which is not bad, necessarily, except you go on to say it can stack with itself, so there's no reason to give it a named bonus type. Just remove it.
Perfect Aim: I suggest clearing up exactly how this interacts with total concealment/invisibility.
Snap Out Of It!: First, this should probably involve a check rather than being automatic. Second, breaking any illusion by yelling lets you do stuff like say, remove someone's invisibility or displacement. Third, telepathies still isn't a word and also isn't something you'd need to snap out of in the first place.
Snap Shooter: This is terrifying. I suggest making a very specific list of what can and cannot provoke an AoO, else you will end up with shenanigans.
Sudden Movement: The immediate action movement needs a limitation for the same reason as Counterattack.
Terrifying Presence: If the penalty is that broad, scaling, and applied in so large an area, it needs to allow a save or something.
Unbound Feat: This will only end badly. I can't immediately think of something horrible, but I'm sure there will be something to make it a thing of great regret.
You have no power over me: No. Not only is this too broad, but this kind of ability should not exist.

[Jormengand]

A lot of the concepts for the Veteran Tricks are fine in theory, but are substantially lacking in prerequisites and far too powerful for their level.
I could say the same of the wizard spells with which the Veteran is supposed to be keeping up.


Battlesense: Blindsight is pretty good. I'd restrict this to around 6th level.
Meh. You probably have other priorities when you only have five tricks to choose from anyway.


Bonus Feats: Any three feats. This is a lot of feats, and isn't limited to a list. Probably a bit much.
Well, it's restricted because if you try to use any metamagic, psionic, metapsionic, item creation or psionic item creation feats, you lose the feat and the rest of your class features with it. Being about six times as a fighter at doing the fighter's thing really doesn't concern me.


Counterattack: This needs more than a once per round limit on it to prevent it from completely shutting down certain attack forms and strategies.
Anyone who's only making one attack per level at 6th and is only capable of making attacks that roll to hit is doing it wrong.


Defender: Wow this needs so much more detail and wording. How far can you move? What if the attacker is adjacent to their target (that is, normal melee conditions?) If you intend for this to just combine and modify its prerequisite tricks, you need to really spell it out.
You can "Move Suddenly" and "Counter an Attack" as the same immediate action. Hint hint.

If you can't interpose yourself between the attacker and the target, you can't use the Defender ability.


Dominating Shout: No. Just, yikes no. Boosting skills is easy, and the wording just begs for someone to find a flat DC use of intimidate so they auto succeed on dominating mind-affecting immune enemies for days at a time. Or you could just get swift or move action dominate and spam this, which is also terrifying. Not only should this not be accessible at such a low level, but it needs revamping to prevent abuse.
I should probably restrict the types of intimidate checks on which it works, yeah.


Full Attacker: The standard action thing? That's fine. Its basically just better pounce. Double full attack though, that's too much. Tome of Battle does the double full attack thing too, and people like it... and its once per encounter, and accessible at 17th level. Consider a Flurry of Blows equivalent instead.
Given that a Veteran is supposed to be able to hand a ToB character his own butt, without using magic items to make your full attack deal about twice as much damage anyway, that seems fine. Honestly, FoB almost allows you to reel off your full attack twice anyway.


Headslam: The massive impact this trick has is ridiculous. It needs to be toned down in basically every aspect.
Meh? I mean, it really, really hurts spellcasters and pseudo-casters, but so does Combat Coup, which works on everyone. Plus, Headslams are harder to hit with than regular attacks, and require the same full action that you might have used to reel off two full attacks.


Heroic Killing Blow: This is unclear, and probably overpowered. 'Hit' is not proper language. Be clear what the benefit is. Is every attack an automatic hit? Is every hit an automatic critical? Is it just that you provoke a save vs. death on each attack, which is what I think you're going for?
The fact that you use "Hit" as a noun means you obviously know what I mean by one. Also, "A hit" is proper terminology...

"A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on the attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit."
"If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit."

When you do hit, it's resolved exactly as though it were a coup de grace, except that it's not necessarily a critical hit. This is exactly what is written in the text.


Iron Mind: This is just better Mind Blank. Mind Blank comes online at about level 13 at the earliest (15 normally) and I recommend a comparable prerequisite level. Also, "telepathies" is both not a word, and also a strange immunity to give. How can you even be immune to telepathy, and why would you want to be?
Yes, the Veteran can do many things better than casters, including getting the Personal Mind Blank power incarnated on them earlier. Telepathies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#telepathy) include Microcosm, a power to which I would gladly be immune. If transparency rules are not in effect, you might not be immune to them just because you're immune to enchantments. It's not a word, no, but I don't care. It means what I want it to mean, and nothing more.


Loyal Companion: Come on, at least make the character act like a normal cohort. Making them equal to your level is nuts.
They also have to follow your code of conduct without getting to be a veteran.


Mortal Wound: Vague wording is always a bad idea. Define exactly what you want it to bypass and do, else you end up with an ability that turns off the sun. (Making me miss due to high AC reduces my damage, right? :smallamused:)

Wrong.


Special: There's nothing to stop you missing due to cover, concealment, or simply failing to beat your foe's AC.

Specifically, if you hit then you deal full damage.


Paragon: Perfection bonus is not an existing thing. Which is not bad, necessarily, except you go on to say it can stack with itself, so there's no reason to give it a named bonus type. Just remove it.
Perfection does exist, it's just not in core.


Perfect Aim: I suggest clearing up exactly how this interacts with total concealment/invisibility.
If you know where your opponent is, you can shoot them at no penalty. If not, you can't.


Snap Out Of It!: First, this should probably involve a check rather than being automatic. Second, breaking any illusion by yelling lets you do stuff like say, remove someone's invisibility or displacement. Third, telepathies still isn't a word and also isn't something you'd need to snap out of in the first place.
If you can see invisible creatures, then yelling their location to someone (or going "See that shimmer? Yeah, that's a wizard who thinks he's invisible") doesn't seem odd. Snapping someone out of microcosm is still useful.


Snap Shooter: This is terrifying. I suggest making a very specific list of what can and cannot provoke an AoO, else you will end up with shenanigans.
Anything that doesn't involve moving and provokes an attack of opportunity, you can. You can't snap shoot someone charging you, because that wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity if they didn't move. You can't snap shoot someone getting up from prone. You can't snap shoot someone walking, running, or anything else that only provokes due to involving movement.


Sudden Movement: The immediate action movement needs a limitation for the same reason as Counterattack.
Even Disciples of the Word can do this twenty-odd times per day. And Disciples of the Word suck.


Terrifying Presence: If the penalty is that broad, scaling, and applied in so large an area, it needs to allow a save or something.
Maybe you're just that scary. Again, this guy's meant to be able to stand up to the might of the guys who can eventually use Blinding Glory to blind entire armies. With no save. You're welcome.


Unbound Feat: This will only end badly. I can't immediately think of something horrible, but I'm sure there will be something to make it a thing of great regret.
Let's grab the Epic Feats list and go through.

Can't use, bad, neat but not gamebreaking, useless, useless, useless, useless, not great, useless, useless, useless, useless, Strictly Worse Than snap shooter, four uselesses, bad, useless, useless, SWT Killing Blow, okayish if you have good REF, ditto, useless, SWT Full Attacker, decent, useless, useless, all right, useless, almost SWT counterattack but nice to have both, bad, useless, okay, useless, it's epic leadership what did you expect, awful, useless, okay, not bad, fairly neat, almost always SWT sudden movement but funny to have both, three uselesses, would have been neat if I could take it at first level, neat, bad, bad, okay, nice if you've going unarmed, probably not going to see play, useless, decent, three uselesses, six SWT paragons with a useless in the middle, nine uselesses, SWT great reach, eight uselesses, doesn't actually work properly, useless, useless, all right if you're going that route, useless, SWT Magic Resistance, useless, SWT full attacker, useless, neat if you're going unarmed, useless, doesn't actually do anything different from the normal version, useless, cool, useless, meh, it's legendary commander what did you expect, bad, barely ever going to be useful, useless if you can't hit a DC 60 survival, decent, really good if you're using sneak attacks, decent, useless times nine, bad, SWT mortal wounds, not bad, useless, you get this from Master at Arms, three more useless ones, isn't that a monk class feature?, six more that I can't use, neat, can't use any of the next three, awful, SWT wallcrash, nice, SWT you have no power over me, three I can't use, one decent, two that are useless, decent, SWT always strikes first, decent, useless, useless, useless, this is an exact copy of another feat, neat if you're TWFing, SWT perfect aim, and the rest are useless.

Not seeing it.


You have no power over me: No. Not only is this too broad, but this kind of ability should not exist.

What, abilities that actually let mundanes hit spellcasters? The horror!



Overall, these criticisms seem to come from underestimating what the veteran's meant to be able to do. Though I'm surprised that you didn't get angry that a second-level veteran with a scythe using combat coup and always strike first can get the jump on an epic fighter and decapitate him without too much of a hassle. Yes, it really is meant to be that good.

[AmberVael]

Overall, these criticisms seem to come from underestimating what the veteran's meant to be able to do.

What I'm criticizing is areas where the Veteran substantially surpasses what is considered good or powerful for tier 1 classes. Gaining broad immunities considered top notch and imperative ten levels early, having the ability to dominate people through immunities for day long lengths via skill check at level 1, or infinite interrupts on the level of abrupt jaunt and wings of cover. These aren't tier 1. These are insane, and makes their equivalent spells look like crap, because they are MORE powerful, and accessible at the earliest levels compared to level ten and beyond.

"This good" isn't Tier 1. It is dysfunctional, and shouldn't be allowed in any sane game.

[Jormengand]

What I'm criticizing is areas where the Veteran substantially surpasses what is considered good or powerful for tier 1 classes. Gaining broad immunities considered top notch and imperative ten levels early, having the ability to dominate people through immunities for day long lengths via skill check at level 1, or infinite interrupts on the level of abrupt jaunt and wings of cover. These aren't tier 1. These are insane, and makes their equivalent spells look like crap, because they are MORE powerful, and accessible at the earliest levels compared to level ten and beyond.

At the same time, Fly makes Craft Masterwork Flying Machine look horrendously bad. Irresistible Phantasmal Killer makes all of your heroic killing blow claptrap look like pigeon crap. Summon Monster N can totally take on your loyal companion, and the wizard can have more than one up at once. Rope Trick is a second level spell that you simply cannot emulate; the closest you can do is to convince your DM to let you planeswalk into a pocket dimension. You simply do not possess an analog to pretty much any divination spells beyond Identify, pretty much any illusion or necromancy, or to Summon Monster N, Dispel Magic, Wind Wall, Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door (try using Find Rift in combat), Black Tentacles, Wall of X, Polymorph/PAO, Telekinesis, Antimagic Field, Contingency, Control Water, Move Earth, Sequester, Spell Turning, Insanity, Prismatic Spray, Control Weather, Limited Wish, Prismatic Wall, Irresistible Dance, Gate, Time Stop or Wish. And that's okay, because those are things which the wizard does, and will always do, way, way better than the Veteran. And the Veteran does a few things way, way, way better in return. And that's also okay.

But let's go through. Battlesense, truenamers can do better, albeit later. But, truenamers. Next.
Bonus feats. Yeah, even getting three a level, and then more at higher levels, isn't really that great. I'd rather take the fewer feats and be able to use magic with them.
Counterattack can and will be shut down by any spell which doesn't need an attack roll.
Dominating Shout is like Quest, only you have to roll for it. Quest just happens. No save. No modified level check. Nowt, nothing, nada.
Full attacker allows you to be utterly ineffective twice in the same round, unless you git gud in some other manner. Psionic Lion's Charge is the obvious way to emulate it for your PsyWar ubercharger.
Headslam uses a full action that you could have spent not making your opponents lose some, but not all, of their spell slots/PP. It barely affects Truenamers at all (That's deliberate, though). I'm at a loss for a situation where Headslamming is the best use of your action. Maybe if your opponent is really low on spells. The trouble is that it only does anything important if your opponent actually survives the combat, or the combat drags out ages, or you're lucky enough to knock out a prepared caster's best spells purely by accident. Mhm. Yeah.
HKB is a way of making your killy guy even more killy, by actually letting him goddamn kill things, already!
Iron Mind is, yes, a better Personal Mind Blank. Stop having nice things, mundanes!
Loyal Companion is probably actually worse than the animal companion. Maybe give him some neat skills you don't have. Ehh.
Snap Shooter isn't that scary. If you can't cast defensively, what are you doing with your life?
Sudden Movement is a Disciple of the Word class feature. Disciple of the Word.
Terrifying Presence is not going to prevent your average tooled-up fighter from hitting you.
Unbound Feat is actually probably one of the worst things you can do with your trick.
You Have No Power Over Me is a way of making your killy gal even more killy, by actually letting her kill things, already!

Cleric has abilities that look out of place on Veteran has abilities that look out of place on Wizard has abilities that look out of place on Druid has abilities that look out of place on Psion has abilities that look out of place on Cleric. Not seeing the issue.

[nikkoli]

I am playing this class in a game. It is "stronk." My über crit shotgun to the XXXXXL ghouls face stopped the tpk because 3 of my party ran right on up to the thing with reach and then it crit them all, out right killing 2, and droping the high con one to like -12, so when I finished moping the floor with said boss, I swap out mortal Wounds for healing hands and fwabam, save the party because the cleric took a crit to the face and died.

Edit my character came to a world super infused with magic and he is from 2015 earth and said nope nope nope go away magic that's why he is a veteran.

[JohnTheSavage]

Mmmm. I like this class. I really like it. But the way I see it, this class could end up being a bit too powerful at low levels. It's damn powerful, but I think it evens out since a) it's designed to be tier 1 anyway and b) the tricks and such have to be picking up the slack of all the magic items you're not using as well as the slack of all the magic buffing, healing and assistance you're not receiving from party casters. But at lower levels, when you've got less magic pieces of equipment, the veteran could be a little too strong. Maybe tacking on some level pre-requisques on the some of the more powerful tricks might be a good idea? And in a low-magic campaign, it'd be downright broken. But why would anyone play this in a low-magic campaign when its entire purpose is to be a giant middle finger to a high magic setting?

EDIT: Actually no, scratch that, I think it's alright.

[Hanuman]

Fast Healing (Ex):
A veteran of at least 5th level gains Fast Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Fast-Healing-Ex-) equal to (1/2 level) -2.

or

Fast Healing (Ex):
A veteran of at least 6th level gains Fast Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Fast-Healing-Ex-) 1, which increases by 1 for every 2 additional levels.

--

Otherwise looks like a class that should be designed around http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/broken-blade-maneuvers , like the tome of battle crusader kind of.

[nikkoli]

Hanuman, the Veteran already gets fast healing at lvl 6 via overcome wounds.

And martial manuvers make you loose all of your class features unless that has been removed since last time I read it.

[Hanuman]

Hanuman, the Veteran already gets fast healing at lvl 6 via overcome wounds.

And martial manuvers make you loose all of your class features unless that has been removed since last time I read it.

o.o

Yes it was a suggestion to replace overcome wounds by removing the table and calling the class ability the effect that it is.

And no, that's kind of like saying that when you gain access to spells you lose all your class features. Maneuvers are like (Ex) spells for melee fighters separated by spell schools (disciplines).

[nikkoli]

However, the veteran's guile and wit, their devotion and their motivation, all stem from the meaningfulness of the vow: the veteran cannot deliberately and knowingly use magic, psionics, martial strikes or stances, supernatural abilities, or magic or psionic items. They cannot accept direct magical or psionic aid to their person (Fireballing their foes doesn't count), and must take any save against that aid that is given to them. They are encouraged to shun those who repeatedly give them unwanted aid of this nature, and preferably all magic, but this is not actually required and veterans don't bear any particular enmity towards spellcasters, psionicists or initiators.

A veteran who breaks this vow feels mentally shattered by the transgression, and loses the conviction that fuels veteran abilities (other than class skills, proficiency, and hit dice). These other abilities are regained at a rate of one level per day by adventuring normally as a glorified warrior ("Normally" is subjective, but no attempt should be made to avoid combat beyond the usual measure). For example, an eighth-level veteran who breaks the vow can use a single veteran trick after one day of adventuring, and seven after six days of adventuring. These days don't need to be consecutive. New veteran tricks can be selected in this way, though it would have been faster to relearn them normally!


Martial maneuvers make you lose your class features.

[Jormengand]

Fast Healing (Ex):
A veteran of at least 5th level gains Fast Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Fast-Healing-Ex-) equal to (1/2 level) -2.

or

Fast Healing (Ex):
A veteran of at least 6th level gains Fast Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Fast-Healing-Ex-) 1, which increases by 1 for every 2 additional levels.

There are at least two monsters in existence which have the Spells feature but it's not called that. The monk has the Spell Resistance ability but it's called Diamond Soul. The ranger has Bonus Feats called Combat Styles.


Otherwise looks like a class that should be designed around http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/broken-blade-maneuvers , like the tome of battle crusader kind of.

No! Take your re-fluffed Magus/Duskblade casting with slightly funny recovery mechanics away from me!


"You who came here seeking glory and fame,
Who wish to fly through the air on wings of fire,
You who seek to hold your blade up high,
And catch the sun in its morning glow,

Leave this place and ne'er return,
'Til you set aside that hope,
For there is glory in might and magic,
And there is none in the warrior's path,

He is not a warrior who knows not pain,
Who sets the sky ablaze with moment's thought,
Or touches the foe with his blade,
Just to destroy them with his might,

Was your sword broken a thousand times?
Or did you bury it in a man's skull?
Did you feel each living thing die?
Or did you wonder if you were next?

No, your sword sits with you yet,
And you but touch your foes,
Use that blade to extend the grasp,
Of the magic you claim is skill.

There is no glory in war,
Know that, and pass these gates,
And though many of you will die,
You will die the best you can."

- Inscription above the Hall of Heroes.

[Hanuman]

Martial maneuvers make you lose your class features.
Where does it say that and by what balance logic would that make sense?


There are at least two monsters in existence which have the Spells feature but it's not called that. The monk has the Spell Resistance ability but it's called Diamond Soul. The ranger has Bonus Feats called Combat Styles.
True, but is the table just to make the class look less dead?


No! Take your re-fluffed Magus/Duskblade casting with slightly funny recovery mechanics away from me!
You should try playing tome of battle/path of war characters and see how fun a nonmagical tier3 frontliner can be.

[nikkoli]

I literally quoted the section that says martial manuvers are unusable if you want to be this class.

[Jormengand]

Where does it say that and by what balance logic would that make sense?
Righteous Desperation class feature.

"the veteran cannot deliberately and knowingly use magic, psionics, martial strikes or stances, supernatural abilities, or magic or psionic items"
"A veteran who breaks this vow feels mentally shattered by the transgression, and loses the conviction that fuels veteran abilities (other than class skills, proficiency, and hit dice). These other abilities are regained at a rate of one level per day by adventuring normally as a glorified warrior ("Normally" is subjective, but no attempt should be made to avoid combat beyond the usual measure)."


True, but is the table just to make the class look less dead?
Not... really?


You should try playing tome of battle/path of war characters and see how fun a nonmagical tier3 frontliner can be.

I have. It felt exactly like playing a magus, duskblade, or even some flavours of battle cleric.

[Hanuman]

Oh I see, the class itself functions like "Vow Against Mechanics".

See, when I think "veteran" I think someone who's been through war and has had to abandon all those notions of what's effective and what works when she went into it, using everything around her to her advantage, improvising and making use of things on the fly.

I also think of someone who's slightly crazy, probably debuffs with shaken, has some precision damage mechanic or deadly strike from stalker.

I mean the fluff could be that all mechanics sources proved too unreliable and could be used against her, which would fit into the paranoia kind of field (afraid to use mechanics, not just swears them off).

What you're going for is essentially kind of like a crusader but instead of maneuvers you're going with rogue tricks? So is this a tier4 class?

[AmberVael]

What you're going for is essentially kind of like a crusader but instead of maneuvers you're going with rogue tricks? So is this a tier4 class?

Sure. A tier 4 class that can use a skill based Dominate Monster at level 3, has a class feature that gives them an equal level wizard companion, can immediately and automatically counter two full schools of spells as a swift action, gets at will abrupt jaunt, and an extra set of actions each round.

[Jormengand]

Oh I see, the class itself functions like "Vow Against Mechanics".

See, when I think "veteran" I think someone who's been through war and has had to abandon all those notions of what's effective and what works when she went into it, using everything around her to her advantage, improvising and making use of things on the fly.

I also think of someone who's slightly crazy, probably debuffs with shaken, has some precision damage mechanic or deadly strike from stalker.

I mean the fluff could be that all mechanics sources proved too unreliable and could be used against her, which would fit into the paranoia kind of field (afraid to use mechanics, not just swears them off).

What you're going for is essentially kind of like a crusader but instead of maneuvers you're going with rogue tricks? So is this a tier4 class?

The fluff is less "I dislike these mechanics, so I therefore vow never to use them! Nyah!" and more "I did it the hard way, and I'm happy to keep doing it the hard way."

And no, the class isn't supposed to be tier 4. Combat Coup on its own immediately propels you into tier 4. Herbalist, master at arms, and dominating shout are the kind of things getting you into tier 3. Craft MW flying machine, find planar rift, brewmaster, loyal companion, not on my watch, and so forth are the kind of things making you tier 2, and the reselection mechanic makes you tier 1. The Mundane Trickster - the Veteran's roguish little sister - is being heralded by at least one of its critics as borderline tier zero.


an equal level wizard companion

Why would you give them a wizard? Loyal companions gain the righteous desperation class feature.

[AmberVael]

Why would you give them a wizard? Loyal companions gain the righteous desperation class feature.

Oh no, my wizard companion will lose all their veteran class abilities that they don't get! What a shame. :smalltongue:

[Jormengand]

Oh no, my wizard companion will lose all their veteran class abilities that they don't get! What a shame. :smalltongue:
Arguably, you also lose all your mundane trickster abilities that you don't get.
Oh, okay, so you would take a wizard Loyal Companion because of RAW abuse. Fine, ficks'd.

[Zireael]

I like the concept, but even for a tier 1, it's too powerful. It basically shuts down every other class. It's not equal to a tier 1 caster, it surpasses it.

Abilities which work like
There's no attack roll and no save. You just deal damage. shouldn't exist.

[Jormengand]

Abilities which work like [volley] shouldn't exist.

Perhaps you would take that up with spells like Magic Missile, Fire Shield, Wall of Fire and Acid Fog? Or maybe you would turn your attention to all six Reversed Word of Nurturing utterances, Reversed Energy Negation, Reversed Greater Energy Negation, Reversed Essence of Lifespark (but deals negative level), Reversed Word of Bolstering (But ability damage) or Energy Vortex? These aren't trivial abilities, either: it's easy for a truenamer to shove metamagic on all their stuff without it costing anything, so you can have a reversed energy negation dealing about 40d6*1.5 damage.

[Hanuman]

The fluff is less "I dislike these mechanics, so I therefore vow never to use them! Nyah!" and more "I did it the hard way, and I'm happy to keep doing it the hard way."
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/kingofthehill/images/7/71/Cotton.jpg
Stubbornness incarnate.

[nikkoli]

Does Armour Master remove the MAX DEX on armor, since it says you take no penalties for wearing armor?

[Jormengand]

Does Armour Master remove the MAX DEX on armor, since it says you take no penalties for wearing armor?

Correct. Anything untoward that could possibly happen as a result of wearing mundane armour (unless it has spikes or contact poison inside it, or something silly) is ignored.

[nikkoli]

Martial artist grants you the effects of improved unarmed strikes and flurry, along with the scaling AC and unarmed strike damage of a mnk right? So you could then pick up superior unarmed strike and get an even better punching ability?

[Jormengand]

Martial artist grants you the effects of improved unarmed strikes and flurry, along with the scaling AC and unarmed strike damage of a mnk right? So you could then pick up superior unarmed strike and get an even better punching ability?

Yes, you deal damage as though you were a monk, so if you take SUAS, you deal damage as a monk with SUAS.

[nikkoli]

Since this is meant to cover up the fighter like the others are meant to cover barbarian, monk, rogue, and the like should the veteran's veteran level count as effective fighter levels for prerequsits? Seeing how the other classes all get their parents class features ontop of theor tricks.

[Jormengand]

Since this is meant to cover up the fighter like the others are meant to cover barbarian, monk, rogue, and the like should the veteran's veteran level count as effective fighter levels for prerequsits? Seeing how the other classes all get their parents class features ontop of theor tricks.

Yes, that's a good idea, though I'd point out that the veteran has ways of getting most of the ones worth getting anyway.

[Submortimer]

Though I'm surprised that you didn't get angry that a second-level veteran with a scythe using combat coup and always strike first can get the jump on an epic fighter and decapitate him without too much of a hassle. Yes, it really is meant to be that good.

I feel like this swings too hard in the other direction. Sure, clerics and wizards can do anything...at level 15 or so. At level two, they get aced by big dumb fighters or large rocks or housecats.

The only thing you need to do is level gate the veteran tricks a little more appropriately. I should not be able to force save or die effects on every strike by level 3... that alone takes vets from tier 1 to tier -5.

On another note, how would this interact with something like Vow of Poverty from the BoED? Would it negate the veteran's vow? If it didn't, you'd have an absolute monster on your hands...

[Jormengand]

I feel like this swings too hard in the other direction. Sure, clerics and wizards can do anything...at level 15 or so. At level two, they get aced by big dumb fighters or large rocks or housecats.

And yet a colour spray can knock out a roomful of housecats: the same roomful of housecats that would probably murder the fighter.


On another note, how would this interact with something like Vow of Poverty from the BoED? Would it negate the veteran's vow? If it didn't, you'd have an absolute monster on your hands...

Many VoP abilities are supernatural and have no way to turn them off: this is in contradiction with the vow of righteous desperation. You cannot have both. Even if you remove all the supernatural abilities (accepting a Truename Dispel or, through some convoluted explanation of how your supernatural abilities are affecting them, several Iron Heart Surges from a friend is not meant to be able to do this, but probably can), you've gone to all that trouble to get some bonus feats, paltry resistances and save bonuses, ability score bonuses which I'll grant are nice, and so forth, and in return, given up your ability to wear adamantine full plate and fly around in a small pedal-powered aeroplane.

[Submortimer]

I'd also like to take a moment to point something out: you consistantly use stuff that Truename magic can do as a way to balance out the abilities that you've built. This is a bad plan, not because those abilites aren't powerful, but because Truename magic doesn't actually work .

Without houseruling, truenamers cannot even attempt to use their higher tier abilities due to the impossible to make Truespeak DC's. Even then, they still have to make skill checks to use said abilities.

I'm just saying that using truenamer as a thing to point at and say "this is OP!" doesn't do anything to validate your argument.


All that said, Ill be glad to see what the veteran looks like when you edit it and clean it up a bit.

[Submortimer]

Other thought occured to me: why make multiple classes out of this? No need for the vet, the trickster, the astetic...just make this class, and allow the other abilities to be taken as tricks.

Rage? There's a trick for that. Sneak attack? There's a trick for that. Being a damn monk? THERE'S A TRICK FOR THAT!

Just an idea.

[Jormengand]

I'd also like to take a moment to point something out: you consistantly use stuff that Truename magic can do as a way to balance out the abilities that you've built. This is a bad plan, not because those abilites aren't powerful, but because Truename magic doesn't actually work .

Without houseruling, truenamers cannot even attempt to use their higher tier abilities due to the impossible to make Truespeak DC's. Even then, they still have to make skill checks to use said abilities.

False. I play truenamers often without houserules (except those which actively work against me, usually, to curtail poor wording) and I enjoy doing so. My point really is that if truenamers - renowned for sucking - can do something, veterans should definitely be able to.

As to why I have multiple classes, why are there multiple casting classes? Why not just let one class cast every spell, ever?

[Submortimer]

False. I play truenamers often without houserules (except those which actively work against me, usually, to curtail poor wording) and I enjoy doing so. My point really is that if truenamers - renowned for sucking - can do something, veterans should definitely be able to.

As to why I have multiple classes, why are there multiple casting classes? Why not just let one class cast every spell, ever?

:-/ you're very combative, you know that?

My point was that youve made something very flavorful and unique here, and you could use the chance to make if even more so.

[Jormengand]

:-/ you're very combative, you know that?

My point was that youve made something very flavorful and unique here, and you could use the chance to make if even more so.

I'm not trying to be, but you seemed REALLY REALLY ANGRY about the ascetic, so y'know, yeah...

But the point is I want the classes to be flavourful and unique in their own ways, rather than you being able to grab some rage, unarmed strike and stealth and being some kind of really angry martial artist rogue person who isn't quite sure what his flavour is.

[NineOfSpades]

Master at Arms
You can use any weapon proficiently
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Whenever you are wielding two weapons, you can wield them as though you had any feat with the words "Two-weapon fighting" in them as long as you meet the non-feat prerequisites. Whenever you are wielding a non-reach melee weapon in two hands (whether it is two-handed or not) you gain the benefits of the Power Attack feat. Whenever you're wielding a reach weapon, you gain the benefits of the combat reflexes feat. Whenever you're wielding a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other, you gain the benefits of combat expertise (even if you don't meet the prerequisite) and improved shield bash. If you're unarmed, you gain the benefits of improved unarmed strike. If you have a ranged weapon, you gain the benefits of point blank shot. If you're wielding a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, you gain the benefit of weapon finesse.
Special: You are treated as having the benefit of the above feats for purposes of prerequisites, but any feat contingent on one of these feats is lost temporarily when you don't meet the correct conditions. For example, if you selected stunning fist using master at arms as the prerequisite, then you could not apply it to an attack with your left hand if you held a sword in your right.


If you are wielding a shield offensively, does this mean you count as wielding two weapons for the purposes of gaining the benefit of 'Two-Weapon Fighting' feats? My instinct is to say yes, since the shield is a weapon, but I'm uncertain if that was the intent.

[Jormengand]

If you are wielding a shield offensively, does this mean you count as wielding two weapons for the purposes of gaining the benefit of 'Two-Weapon Fighting' feats? My instinct is to say yes, since the shield is a weapon, but I'm uncertain if that was the intent.

Yes, that's correct. Shields are weapons because of the shield bash associated with them; they're listed as weapons, after all.

[Jakinbandw]

Level
Veteran Tricks
Swap Tricks/day


1
1
1


2
2
1


3
3
1


4
4
1


5
6
2


6
8
2


7
10
2


8
12
2


9
15
3


10
18
3


11
21
3


12
24
3


13
28
4


14
32
4


15
36
4


16
40
4


17
45
5


18
50
5


19
55
5


20
60
5




For my own use. Is the table correct? I was wondering about how you hit high DCs with the class, and now I think I know. You get a lot of ability score increases at the end (or feats, or whatever).

[edit] If you're unarmed, but plan to fight with both fists, do you get all the two weapon fighting feats as well as unarmed strike? based on what you said earlier it sounds like you do, but I want to be sure.

[edit2] You've listed 62 abilities. That means at lvl 20, you still can't get all the options, even if you double up. Though, with 5 free changes at lvl 20, you can still access just about anything from the list.

[Jormengand]

Level
Veteran Tricks
Swap Tricks/day


1
1
1


2
2
1


3
3
1


4
4
1


5
6
2


7
10
2


8
12
2


9
15
3


10
18
3


11
21
3


12
24
3


13
28
4


14
32
4


15
36
4


16
40
4


17
45
5


18
50
5


19
55
5


20
60
5




For my own use. Is the table correct? I was wondering about how you hit high DCs with the class, and now I think I know. You get a lot of ability score increases at the end (or feats, or whatever).

[edit] If you're unarmed, but plan to fight with both fists, do you get all the two weapon fighting feats as well as unarmed strike? based on what you said earlier it sounds like you do, but I want to be sure.

[edit2] You've listed 62 abilities. That means at lvl 20, you still can't get all the options, even if you double up. Though, with 5 free changes at lvl 20, you can still access just about anything from the list.

Yes, the table is correct, though why it's missing level 6 I don't know. That said, it's ONLY true for the veteran, and not the other trick-using classes.

Unarmed strikes are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm) natural weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm) so you don't use the two-weapon fighting rules for them.

Yeah, I came up with as many abilities as I could and then more as people suggested them. *Shrug*.

[Jakinbandw]

Yes, the table is correct, though why it's missing level 6 I don't know. That said, it's ONLY true for the veteran, and not the other trick-using classes.

Unarmed strikes are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm) natural weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm) so you don't use the two-weapon fighting rules for them.

Yeah, I came up with as many abilities as I could and then more as people suggested them. *Shrug*.

If you're looking ideas, maybe some option for an unarmored bonus to AC so I can eventually go full monk and not have to wear armor.

[Jormengand]

If you're looking ideas, maybe some option for an unarmored bonus to AC so I can eventually go full monk and not have to wear armor.

I made a class for that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?431660-quot-Mind-over-matter-matter-over-magic-quot-%283-5-class-PEACH%29).

[Jakinbandw]

Unarmed strikes are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm) natural weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm) so you don't use the two-weapon fighting rules for them.

A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

So if you have martial artist it would work because you get the Monks unarmed strike (which magic weapon says it works on), or am I misreading it?

Also curious: do you lose your class if you take the epic feat that gives your unarmed strike the vorpal quality?


I made a class for that.

Your monk class is cool, but from what I can tell it's strictly inferior. Currently with two weapon fighting the Veteran (at 16) can make 32 attacks a round. That pretty much guarantees that you kill whatever you're fighting. (Baring abuse of Miko's Gambit for infinite surprise rounds against an opponent which I don't think was what you intended.)

On top of that, the Veteran has access to volley shot which makes it much easier to survive to higher levels so they can use all the cool abilities.

[Edit] How does Resilient interact with shrug off? Can a 5th level fighter ignore prone for no hp cost?

[Jormengand]

So if you have martial artist it would work because you get the Monks unarmed strike (which magic weapon says it works on), or am I misreading it?

But there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) So you can't dual-wield it.


Also curious: do you lose your class if you take the epic feat that gives your unarmed strike the vorpal quality?

Yes, but only if you actually make the vorpal attack with it.


Your monk class is cool, but from what I can tell it's strictly inferior. Currently with two weapon fighting the Veteran (at 16) can make 32 attacks a round. That pretty much guarantees that you kill whatever you're fighting. (Baring abuse of Miko's Gambit for infinite surprise rounds against an opponent which I don't think was what you intended.)

You can do that with TWF, but the ascetic can flurry with its UAS, which does more damage than the Veteran's TWF and it doesn't have to deal with its strength bonus to damage being halved. The veteran can flurry too, but the ascetic's flurry is slightly better, it has a higher unarmoured bonus to AC, and it has actual class features. And I Believe can be used to bump any attacks that miss into hits, and then pile on extra damage. Halting Rebuke isn't exactly bad, and because you can perform a flurry of blows with Dim Mak you can potentially kill 32 creatures if you can get them all in your attack range (admittedly unlikely even with Great Reach, but there we go). At 20th level, the ascetic becomes practically immortal, with +42 to AC, +17.5 to all saves and +494 hit points on average. Her land speed is now 390 feet.


On top of that, the Veteran has access to volley shot which makes it much easier to survive to higher levels so they can use all the cool abilities.

Volley of arrows is nice, but by third level either class can be throwing heroic killing blows at people, so you don't massively need it.


[Edit] How does Resilient interact with shrug off? Can a 5th level fighter ignore prone for no hp cost?

Resilient protects against damage, not payment of hit points.

[Jakinbandw]

But there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) So you can't dual-wield it.
Ah, makes sense.




Yes, but only if you actually make the vorpal attack with it.
I was just curious because it wasn't called out as magic in the feat or description, good to know.




You can do that with TWF, but the ascetic can flurry with its UAS, which does more damage than the Veteran's TWF and it doesn't have to deal with its strength bonus to damage being halved. The veteran can flurry too, but the ascetic's flurry is slightly better, it has a higher unarmoured bonus to AC, and it has actual class features. And I Believe can be used to bump any attacks that miss into hits, and then pile on extra damage. Halting Rebuke isn't exactly bad, and because you can perform a flurry of blows with Dim Mak you can potentially kill 32 creatures if you can get them all in your attack range (admittedly unlikely even with Great Reach, but there we go). At 20th level, the ascetic becomes practically immortal, with +42 to AC, +17.5 to all saves and +494 hit points on average. Her land speed is now 390 feet.
All this is true, but the fighter has the ability to make two full attacks a round as a full action, which while it costs a trick, is just as effective as flurry, and they can combo it with two weapon fighting for more attacks, any of which if they hit are crits and force a saving throw or death. Really, it seems to me dim mark is flavourful, but not that great, because coup de grace already forces a death saving throw.

Finally, death mark means that a smart fighter can make all his attacks after the first more likely to hit.




Volley of arrows is nice, but by third level either class can be throwing heroic killing blows at people, so you don't massively need it.
Personally I wouldn't pick it up till 5th level. I would go volley, always strike first, and then sudden movement. Now I act first in combat, do 3d8+12 damage to an area on the first round of combat, I can dodge if I need to, or pretty soon, move to a spot and make a full attack. Also it can't miss, which for me makes it flat out better at this low level.




Resilient protects against damage, not payment of hit points.
Got it!

[edit] fixed some spelling and numbers.

[Jormengand]

All this is true, but the fighter has the ability to make two full attacks a round as a full action, which while it costs a trick, is just as effective as flurry, and they can combo it with two weapon fighting for more attacks, any of which if they hit are crits and force a saving throw or death. Really, it seems to me dim mark is flavourful, but not that great, because coup de grace already forces a death saving throw.

All of this has brought one major thing to my attention: why the hell is full attacker not on the ascetic trick list? It ought to be. Let me put it there.

[Jakinbandw]

All of this has brought one major thing to my attention: why the hell is full attacker not on the ascetic trick list? It ought to be. Let me put it there.

Heh, I thought that was a deliberate choice, and was one of the things I thought made ascetic much weaker at high levels. That makes them much more balanced in my eyes. Probably enough that I'd play the ascetic over the veteran (because I like unarmed fighting).

Thanks!