Are High Priests really high?

[falsedot]

I have always thought that it is unlikely that Durkula's plan is to kill everyone, as the high priests would be overwhelmingly more powerful, especially with bodyguards; but are we sure that this is true?

We know that when Durkon was little only the HP of Odin could cast Regeneration, a lvl7 spell. Assuming a downward trend ("at least these days"), it wouldnt be improbable that only the HPoO and Veldrina would be higher than lvl13.

A possible plan would be Durkula eliminating the HPoO first, in private, under the pretence of ressurection; that would be a fight against the HPoO, his bodyguards and Roy plus Belkar. It also opens the possibility of vamping HPoO, assuming that there is a charge left in the staff.

Then, from the northen pantheon we have seen Freya, Thor, Loki, maybe Surtur, Skadi and Hoder; that's 6 HPs plus 12 bodyguards. It could be that in a case of fighting the evil HPs will remain neutral so it drops to 4 HPs and 8 bodyguards (although it could be that not everyone brought two). Not too shabby if we assume they are level 10 with level 8 bodyguards.

Now I recognise that this is pure speculation; after so many years perhaps the HPs leveled up (although we know that Thor's died so it could be that he is very low level); Im just trying to think if there is a plausible scenario were Durkula could have a chance, that doesnt scream Hel Ex Machina. Thoughts?

[Peelee]

I guess it'd depend on what they're smoking.

[Kantaki]

I guess it'd depend on what they're smoking.

I think incense is the traditional choice there...

Anyway back on topic. I think that Sigdi was only talking about the dwarven lands when she said that only the HPoO could cast Regeneration.
Since we know that at least the High Priestess of Hodr is human and that Veldrina represents the Western Gods (not to mention an potential emissary from the south) we can conclude that not all High Priests will be from there. That means we can't make assumptions about their power-level based on her comment. It's entirely possible that the priests of other gods can match Durkula in power.

I too really doubt that the HPoHs plan involves violence at the Godsmoot. I don't see how that would help his mistress. In fact I'm pretty sure that a regularly occurring conclave between the servants of the various gods with their conflicting philosophies and alignments has rules in place to enforce a peaceful meeting. Otherwise good priest would gang up on evil ones or lawful priest on those that serve chaos. Or the other way around.

[D.One]

I guess it'd depend on what they're smoking.

LoL

After reading the title, I couldn't shove off the image of all the "high" priests in a disco party on the top of the mountain, Woodstock-style...

PS: Yeah, I know Woodstock and Disco are from different times. It's just how the "high high priests" images came...

[kgato503]

You bring up a good point. It may be possible that at least some of the high priests are lower level. However, like Kantaki said, I think there must be some agreement in place to stop any big violence from breaking out. Otherwise, I don't think the HPoH would be so calm about going in. Lets face it, he is an evil vampire going into a convention center full of High Priests that could potentially dust him in a minute, especially if they gang up on him. And that doesn't even cover the up to two bodyguards for each of those priests. Unless his whole plan is to get killed there (which it might be, now that I think of it, since a rules violation here might put Hel in a very advantageous situation, even if she would lose her one and only High Priest), he must be reasonably sure that he will survive.

HPoH's plan, now that I think about it, may involve filibustering, or other wise blocking voting that the High Priests of the other gods are trying to force through. Heck, he may even use this, or some other tactic, to try and get one of the other representatives to start trouble, in order to take advantage of the rules. One way or another, I feel like HPoH will be doing a bit of rules-lawyering in the near future.


PS: Yeah, I know Woodstock and Disco are from different times. It's just how the "high high priests" images came...

Hey, this is the world where dinosaurs are alive and well right along side humans and dragons, and we have ninjas in a (quasi-)medieval setting. I see no reason why disco and Woodstock could not have happened at the same time in the OotS universe. Heck, it may even be an annual thing.

[thereaper]

I've long suspected that this whole thing is just a way to get influence for Hel just by showing up. Like it somehow "legitimizes" Hel as an equal deity with equal pull.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I'm the high priest of... of... of something.

[littlebum2002]

https://i.imgflip.com/oc9fw.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/oc9fw)

[Gift Jeraff]

The High Priest of Loki is blazing it.

[Vinyadan]

There is high power divine magic flying around, because Dorukan actively attempted resurrecting Lirian without having the body around. That's ninth level, I think. Of course, it needn't to be a priest. It could be an archivist, or some UMD, or some kind of wish, or extraplanars, or something else. A rainbow servant warmage who thinks text trumps table.

[Peelee]

We do know that the high priest of the Twelve Gods (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) was at least level 13 (which would put him on par with the Order) and could possibly have been higher.

[Emanick]

Let's make a list of the high priests whom we've heard of, and whose minimum levels we know or can make a decent guess at:

Redcloak (level 17)
High Priest of the Twelve Gods (level 13-14, likely)
Malack (level 12, but probably would be higher if he weren't a vampire)
High Priest of Thor (?) that young Durkon wanted to cast Regeneration (level 13+, implied)
High Priest of Hel (level 14 + vampire)

It's possible I'm forgetting some characters.

It looks to me as if the average High Priest is at least level 13, and quite possibly higher. This seems consistent with what we've seen of the OOTSverse so far - characters capable of casting 7th level spells are rare but not terribly difficult to find, but the bottleneck narrows significantly afterwards.

Unrelatedly, I am delighted that this thread's title provoked the same initial reaction from other people that it did from me. :smallbiggrin:

[jidasfire]

If Durkula is going after the high priests, it seems like the smartest thing for him to do would be to go after the weakest ones and work his way up. Not all high priests, as we have seen, are equal, but making any priest a vampire turns them that much more powerful. Eventually, if he's crafty enough in his conversions (though it may end up burning out that staff of his), his army would begin to outnumber and overpower any and all of the high priests, by which point he would no longer need to use subtlety and their power levels wouldn't matter.

It might not go this way, as Durkula was prophesied to bring death and destruction to the dwarven homelands, not the Godsmoot. On the other hand, he has to make a move of some sort, seeing as Roy's expecting him to be raised at this shindig and he won't be able to keep up appearances much longer without that happening.

[Darth Paul]

Certainly there could be minor gods whose "High Priest" is only 2nd or 3rd level, because he or she is the ONLY priest of that deity. I have always been fond of Sir Terry Pratchett's Discworld deity "Anoia, Goddess of Things that get Stuck in Drawers," whose high priestess also handled the affairs of 2 other deities part-time and whose "temple" was a rented room over a shop, IIRC.

Whether the priest of such a minor deity would be entitled to show up at the Moot is a different matter and probably a moot point for the purposes of this thread.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

There's really two ways to answer this question. 1) Yes, if you consider ~level 13 to be high. 2) Depends on what they brought to this "moot".

[Pyron]

Whether the priest of such a minor deity would be entitled to show up at the Moot is a different matter and probably a moot point for the purposes of this thread.

I would really like to see Shaman Vurkle, High Priest of Giggles, at the Moot.

[Reddish Mage]

If he could come then Elan should be there as the chief (and currently only) follower of Banjo.

[King of Nowhere]

if durkula wanted to kill the various high priests, it would make much more sense to go after them one by one, when they are alone. trying to kill them all when they are all together seems like the last thing you would want to do.

therefore

I've long suspected that this whole thing is just a way to get influence for Hel just by showing up. Like it somehow "legitimizes" Hel as an equal deity with equal pull.

i also believe so

[Mike Havran]

I've long suspected that this whole thing is just a way to get influence for Hel just by showing up. Like it somehow "legitimizes" Hel as an equal deity with equal pull. This is also what I think. Hel has some evil plot going on, but legitimisation of her dogma seems to be a rational first step, especially since she has no other clerics save Durkula.

[Bad Wolf]

Any decent Cleric there should have max ranks in Knowledge (religion), which means he'd be outed as soon as he walked into the room.

EDIT: And since he's a Cleric who has a legit reason for being there, I'd guess he would be pretty safe from the other Clerics, but he'd lose the support of the party.

[ORione]

In Start of Darkness...

... Redcloak became high priest the same day he was ordained. It was under unusual circumstances, but it shows that it's at least possible to be a high priest at a low level. I'm assuming here that a freshly ordained cleric would have one level in cleric.

[ti'esar]

In Start of Darkness...

... Redcloak became high priest the same day he was ordained. It was under unusual circumstances, but it shows that it's at least possible to be a high priest at a low level. I'm assuming here that a freshly ordained cleric would have one level in cleric.

That's a special case, though, because from what we know the High Priest of the Dark One is always the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, regardless of his or her level.

[Peelee]

Any decent Cleric there should have max ranks in Knowledge (religion), which means he'd be outed as soon as he walked into the room.

EDIT: And since he's a Cleric who has a legit reason for being there, I'd guess he would be pretty safe from the other Clerics, but he'd lose the support of the party.

He'd be outed..... as a vampire? I'm afraid the others already know that. Or if you mean outed as an evil spirit in the drivers seat, we have already been shown that that is rare nowledge, and is by no means available to "any decent cleric."

[SirKazum]

He'd be outed..... as a vampire? I'm afraid the others already know that. Or if you mean outed as an evil spirit in the drivers seat, we have already been shown that that is rare nowledge, and is by no means available to "any decent cleric."

I think they mean outed as a priest of Hel, rather than Thor. Which might actually be the whole point of going to the Godsmoot.

[Emanick]

He'd be outed..... as a vampire? I'm afraid the others already know that. Or if you mean outed as an evil spirit in the drivers seat, we have already been shown that that is rare nowledge, and is by no means available to "any decent cleric."

I'd wager that most high priests do know how vampires work. A random gnome cleric did, after all and one would expect most of the highest-level clerics in the world to roll significantly higher on Knowledge (Religion) checks than s/he did.

[Bad Wolf]

Yeah, I meant outed as not actually being durkon. You think high priests would have more ranks then a random priest.


That's a special case, though, because from what we know the High Priest of the Dark One is always the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, regardless of his or her level.

Also, everyone was dead. And I think the cloak gives him a couple levels of Cleric casting levels (like the shield of the sun or something in 3.5), as I think he casted a higher level spell right after putting it on.

[Peelee]

Yeah, I meant outed as not actually being durkon. You think high priests would have more ranks then a random priest.

And yet the vampire seems unconcerned with that possibility.


I'd wager that most high priests do know how vampires work.

I'll take that bet.

[Bad Wolf]

And yet the vampire seems unconcerned with that possibility.
Maybe because there's some sort of non-violence clause at the moot?

[Peelee]

Maybe because there's some sort of non-violence clause at the moot?

But as you pointed out, that would alert the other party members. I don't think the vampire is going to split from the party or try to take them all on so soon.

[Emperordaniel]

Didn't the Giant also say something about needing Skill Focus [Knowledge (Religion)] or something as well in order to have enough ranks to identify a vampire's dual-soul issue?

[Peelee]

Didn't the Giant also say something about needing Skill Focus [Knowledge (Religion)] or something as well in order to have enough ranks to identify a vampire's dual-soul issue?

Not exactly (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18433102#post18433102).

The reasonings behind my stance:


Being a vampire is super-rare; being returned to life after being a vampire so you can share the logistics of how it worked from your point of view in such a way that it entered a general body of knowledge that people would have learned about in the course of their education is simply not something that has ever occurred.



My intended implication was that even among the clerics, this was not common knowledge

[ti'esar]

Yeah, I meant outed as not actually being durkon. You think high priests would have more ranks then a random priest.



Also, everyone was dead. And I think the cloak gives him a couple levels of Cleric casting levels (like the shield of the sun or something in 3.5), as I think he casted a higher level spell right after putting it on.

Smite isn't a spell, it's the Destruction domain's ability. The scene does give the impression that Redcloak couldn't use it before, so my guess is that the Mantle grants the Bearer access to all of the Dark One's domains at once. But that's just speculation at the moment.

Either way, it's sort of off-topic. The point is that Redcloak isn't a normal high priest.

[King of Nowhere]

the last comic shows that he identified himself as high priest of hel to gain admission. it also strongly implies that there are at least several dozens high priests, so fighting them all at once is out of the table. the "gain official recognition" theory is gaining wheight.
I just wonder about what will happen later. maybe hel considers participating in this meeting to be important enough to lose her high priest at the end of it, and maybe the prophecy about "bringing death and destruction" refers to the fact that hel, whose domains are death and destruction, will be a recognized deity from now on. but it doesn't strike as the right resolution for the story arc. I mean, durkon is vamped, then he is returned to normal after doing something that widely affects the world, but has no consequence on the story? I don't believe it.

[137beth]

He'd be outed..... as a vampire? I'm afraid the others already know that. Or if you mean outed as an evil spirit in the drivers seat, we have already been shown that that is rare nowledge, and is by no means available to "any decent cleric."


And yet the vampire seems unconcerned with that possibility.



I'll take that bet.

I'm taking a wild guess, but he isn't worried because he doesn't expect Roy or the rest of the order to be listening. The fact that Belkar is listening is either not something he anticipated, or something he expects won't hurt because the rest of the party won't believe him. Or he expects to kill Belkar before he can tell Roy what he heard.

[ti'esar]

the last comic shows that he identified himself as high priest of hel to gain admission. it also strongly implies that there are at least several dozens high priests, so fighting them all at once is out of the table. the "gain official recognition" theory is gaining wheight.
I just wonder about what will happen later. maybe hel considers participating in this meeting to be important enough to lose her high priest at the end of it, and maybe the prophecy about "bringing death and destruction" refers to the fact that hel, whose domains are death and destruction, will be a recognized deity from now on. but it doesn't strike as the right resolution for the story arc. I mean, durkon is vamped, then he is returned to normal after doing something that widely affects the world, but has no consequence on the story? I don't believe it.

Remember, Hel's description of her plans involves "bringing the world to ruin and driving that buffoon Thor to his knees" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html). While the HPoH's initial move or excuse for getting into the Godsmoot may be to get some sort of official recognition for Hel's church, I think we have more than just narrative reasons to think that it's ultimately going to be quite a bit more destructive than that.

[Snails]

You bring up a good point. It may be possible that at least some of the high priests are lower level. However, like Kantaki said, I think there must be some agreement in place to stop any big violence from breaking out. Otherwise, I don't think the HPoH would be so calm about going in.

That is the winning argument against the violent route. HPoH could suddenly be dust in literally 2 seconds, if violence were a practical measure at a godsmoot.

Furthermore, HPoH's chance of a simple attack would have been vastly improved if only he turned Veldrina first. If cannot accomplish that with a measly bodyguard and Roy around, then he doomed against the moot.

As for the general question, my guess is everyone is in the double digits. The more important gods tend to have more followers and more followers who are powerful, so there is a correlation between the god and the potency of the high priest, but it does not have to be a lock step relationship. We expect the HPoO to be equal to or more powerful than everyone else, but we cannot be certain.

[Snails]

Didn't the Giant also say something about needing Skill Focus [Knowledge (Religion)] or something as well in order to have enough ranks to identify a vampire's dual-soul issue?

If I were DMing it, I would call it a DC 30 knowledge check -- something that a hero might accomplish but normal folk would consider impossible.

By the numbers a very clever and very "lucky" 4th priest with Skill Focus might happen to know the answer.

Even double digit priests would probably not know this stuff off the top of their head. If they decided the issue was important, they could sit in a library for a month and Take 20. But why would they ever do that? Being high enough level to get the right answer, they have options if their lover is turned to a vampire or similar.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Attacking other high priests at a godsmoot might break a few of those holy agreements between the gods. If Hel manages to take out all the priests but angers the gods themselves enough to get them to intervene directly the exercise would be pointless. Rules lawyering seems more likely than killing and turning, no matter how well Durkon might be able to execute the mission.

I think so because even the doorman seems to have no problem with a vampire high priest of Hel who's bodyguards think he serves Thor. He may not be expecting whatever Durkon is going to say at the meeting, but he seems to have no reason to think any evil person is going to be a direct physical threat to anyone (who matters, Belkar jumping off another airship wouldn't count) during the moot.

[TurboGhast]

I got a little confused on the last post. I though it meant that the doorman wouldn't care if Belkar entered by jumping off an airship when the poster actually meant that the doorman wouldn't care if Belkar got knocked off the ship by Durkula.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

To clarify further: he wouldn't care a lot (I think) if anything happened to a lowly bodyguard like Belkar or anyone else who's not really part of the moot. But that was kind of beside the point, the point was more that he would care if something happened to any of the high priests, and his current attitude towards Durkon seems to indicate he's not expecting Durkon to "happen" to anyone. This in turn most likely means that Durkon starting physical combat would not be much of a problem, whether it'd be because the high priests would work together and could handle him easily or because the gods themselves vouch for the behavior of their representatives or through any other means. Since Durkon gets his information directly from Hel who seems rather up to date on the runnings of this moot he probably knows whatever the doorman knows about the subject, so he's not here for a physical fight, rather to deliver a message or hand out an ultimatum or something.

[Closet_Skeleton]

What is a high priest anyway? Is it equivalent to the Pope or just a regular bishop. Is it the highest priest of that deity or just in one temple or nation?

Literally it just means a rank above regular priest.

You might say that its been implied that they're the highest priest of a god, but we don't know if the northern gods are functionally just the Dwarven pantheon or if they're worshipped in multiple nations.

[Emanick]

What is a high priest anyway? Is it equivalent to the Pope or just a regular bishop. Is it the highest priest of that deity or just in one temple or nation?

Literally it just means a rank above regular priest.

You might say that its been implied that they're the highest priest of a god, but we don't know if the northern gods are functionally just the Dwarven pantheon or if they're worshipped in multiple nations.

We do know that the Northern gods are worshipped in multiple nations. They have jurisdiction over the entirety of the Northern lands, so any non-goblinoid cleric from that area can be expected to worship them. We see some examples, such as the cleric of Freya early in the second book.

Also, I think it's been pretty clearly established that there is only one High Priest of any given god or group of gods, and that there is no higher rank in the clerical hierarchy - we never hear about "a" high priest of any given god, but about "the" High Priest. I don't know that it's ever been explicitly stated that nobody ranks higher than the high priest, but it would be strange if there was a higher rank and we didn't know about it - Redcloak, for instance, would surely have been in touch with his superior in such a case.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

What is a high priest anyway? Is it equivalent to the Pope or just a regular bishop. Is it the highest priest of that deity or just in one temple or nation?

What Emanick says. There seems to be a single high priest per deity, even if several countries or species prey to the same ones. So it's closest to a pope, if there were several of those living and working in their own temple complexes, all recognizing each other as high priests of gods in their own pantheon. And then of course if there were several sets of those groups of popes for different religions, which still recognize eachothers gods as existing and generally as good.

[Gusion]

What is a high priest anyway? Is it equivalent to the Pope or just a regular bishop. Is it the highest priest of that deity or just in one temple or nation?

Literally it just means a rank above regular priest.

You might say that its been implied that they're the highest priest of a god, but we don't know if the northern gods are functionally just the Dwarven pantheon or if they're worshipped in multiple nations.

Essentially yes, it is equivalent to the Pope.

It doesn't mean, however, that the person has the most levels. It is certainly possible that the high priest gets so involved in church administration that some clerics outside of management have more levels as they're still leveling.

[dps]

Essentially yes, it is equivalent to the Pope.

It doesn't mean, however, that the person has the most levels. It is certainly possible that the high priest gets so involved in church administration that some clerics outside of management have more levels as they're still leveling.

It's also possible that the high priest of a given deity isn't chosen based on level in the first place. Maybe some of them are chosen based on piety or administrative ability or something else other than caster level. For some deities, being their high priest might even be an inherited position. It's not an clerical organization as such, but look at the Sapphire Guard. We were explicitly told that Miko was the highest level Paladin in the SG, but she wasn't its commander.

[Rinazina]

I guess it'd depend on what they're smoking.

haha :) it is what I think at first! the dance starts at 4.20

also, I've this speculation on Durkula's plan:

I remember a book TSR-about-drow-elfs. It is a series of six books where Lolth is temporarily disappeared, A cleric of V-something open a gate that bring his god in the place where he's gone by trickery.

I was speculating something like that. I've not idea what Hel can do if spawned in the middle of clerics.

And the clerics ? I guess they are likely are addressing the issue of the Gates. call by surprise across the globe, now that only one gate remains...

Or eventually something totally anti-climatic-take-fun-of-the-religions, like, they are playing rock-paper-scissor and the vampire sense wins everything. (as the topic recall: they are not the only high)