bring me your monks.

[Shinizak]

I am looking for any and all redesigns of the monk. If you have 'em or know of them than post them.

[Sith_Happens]

Jiriku Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?150122-3-5-The-Monk-Remixed) is best Monk. You'll want to drop the skill points per level to 8 is the only thing, it assumes you're also houseruling to give Rogues 10.

[Sacrieur]

What's wrong with the unarmed swordsage? Didn't it solve the monk problem?

[Troacctid]

What's wrong with the unarmed swordsage? Didn't it solve the monk problem?

No, not really...it's a pretty different class with a different feel to it.

[Extra Anchovies]

What's wrong with the unarmed swordsage? Didn't it solve the monk problem?

Um... no? Because the monk is still a bad class.

Some people don't want an unarmed swordsage, they want a monk (not the character type, the actual class). And they should be able to play a monk without having to resort to the crappy version of the monk that WotC gave us.

[Telonius]

I've had some of these houserules in mind for a while, and have implemented a few of them in a campaign I'm running. The Monk player seems to be keeping up reasonably well with a Crusader in the party.

Remove alignment requirements.
BAB increases to 1 per level.
Weapon Proficiencies: add Gauntlet, Spiked Gauntlet, and Unarmed Strike.
Monk Weapons: add Gauntlet and Spiked Gauntlet.
A Monk can spend time, money, and XP enchanting her own body as though she had the Craft Magic Weapon and Armor feat. Instead of using the gold for magical reagents, it’s spent on expensive incense that’s burned during a special meditation. Treat the Monk as an equivalent-level Wizard for the purposes of prerequisite caster levels. (If a wizard of equivalent level would normally be capable of casting an enchantment prerequisite, the Monk is capable of giving herself the enchantment).

A Monk adds a bonus equal to her Monk level/5 (minimum 1) to all Grapple checks.

At 4th level, a Monk gains the following ability:
Channel ki (Su) A Monk wielding either a Monk weapon or a Ki Focus weapon may use the monk’s unarmed damage (if higher than the weapon’s regular damage) on any successful attack roll.

At 5th level, a Monk may use the Flurry of Blows ability as a Standard Action.

At 8th level, a Monk is treated as one size category larger for the purposes of Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Trip, Overrun, and Sunder checks. At 14th level, the Monk is treated as two categories larger.

At 10th level, a Monk adds her Wisdom modifier (if positive) as a bonus to damage when using Monk weapons.

Replace the Abundant Step ability at 12th level with the following:
Walk on the Clouds (Su). At 12th level or higher, a monk can take to the air, as if using the spell Air Walk, for a number of rounds per day equal to her Monk level plus her Wisdom modifier. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. For purposes of dispelling, her caster level is equal to her Monk level.

The Quivering Palm ability is usable once per day. If the Monk successfully strikes the foe, the Monk must make a Concentration check. The result of this check is the fortitude save DC.

Perfect Self: Damage Reduction changes to 10/Adamantine.


Flurry of Blows with full-BAB and a Wounding Weapon ... yeah, fun times.

[Sagetim]

I would probably give a monk a full bab for unarmed combat (in addition to their normal extra attacks from flurry of blows shenanigans). In addition to that, I'd give them an option at level 1 to have finesse or intuitive attack for unarmed combat only. I would probably up their basic unarmed damage by a size category (starting them with 1d8 unarmed strikes) and give them a faster progression on ki strike, including both alignment factors for their ki strike (so they wind up with lawful and good or lawful and evil, with neutral monks picking to stirke as good or evil. I would upgrade wholeness of body to give monk level x wis mod, min monk level x2. I would probably make monks immune to poison at the same time they get immunity to disease. I'd probably tack on an enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks of 1/5 levels, starting at level 5.

In exchange, I would take away quivering palm and empty body. Though I'd probably let monks get a feat to let them have ghost touch on their unarmed strikes starting at level 6. And finally, I'd make a brass knuckle item that gives +2 damage when used for unarmed strikes, and can be made of the normal array of materials and enchanted as a bludgeoning weapon. And probably 'weighted boots' to allow the same deal for feet (The knuckles take up weapon slots, the boots would take up boot slots).

That's off the top of my head though, I may take some other things out of monk's lineup of random bull****. Oh, right, dimension step. No more of that. Basically trading out some of the more mystical things for punching things really really competently.

edit: Oh, right, because aparently that's a thing on this forum- monks are assumed to be proficient with unarmed strikes, including hip thrusts. Yes, my monks would be allowed to grapple and dry hump things to death. I'd probably let them grapple things many size categories bigger too, just for ****s and giggles.

[Curmudgeon]

I like the Sidewinder Monk variant (Dragon # 331, page 89). You lose the atrocious Slow Fall, and gain a sneak attack progression. That's a big improvement.

[Rubik]

Um... no? Because the monk is still a bad class.

Some people don't want an unarmed swordsage, they want a monk (not the character type, the actual class). And they should be able to play a monk without having to resort to the crappy version of the monk that WotC gave us.So, these people who want monks don't want the unarmed swordsages because they want monks! And to that end, they want homebrewed non-monk classes. Because monk.

What?

If you want a monk that's still a monk, and you want a monk that's extremely versatile and powerful, look no further than here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

[Thurbane]

So, these people who want monks don't want the unarmed swordsages because they want monks! And to that end, they want homebrewed non-monk classes. Because monk.

What?

No, not really...it's a pretty different class with a different feel to it.
I think that just about sums it up for me...

[KingSmitty]

Convince the DM to allow the alternate style variants and allow you to take a different one each level to "cherry pick" the features you want. You're a student of the Martial Arts monk instead of a Monk.

[SangoProduction]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428499-Monk-of-the-Path-(D-amp-D-3-5-prc)-Feel-free-to-suggest-your-own-paths&p=19547664#post19547664

Yeah, this is not necessarily a monk fix, but it would nice for a monk...kinda designed with the monk in mind, to make it easier on them.

[jiriku]

I must admit that I am in fact partial to my remixed monk (thanks Sith, for the props :smallsmile:). It has been played extensively both by my personal group and by a variety of Playgrounders who have used it with and without their personal modifications. Even if you choose not to use it as-is, you'll certainly find ideas of value to borrow.

[daremetoidareyo]

monk is easy to fix. Make stunning fist a class feature they get at level 1. Give them full BAB. And allow them to take any bonus feat from a curated list (fighter feats + "monk feats"), and give them another bonus feat at 8th level. After 6th level, allow monks to multi-class freely as part of a "widening worldly knowledge."


This will make fighters stink more in comparison. To fix that, give fighters d12 hp, 2 extra skillpoints per level, quickdraw as a bonus feat at level one, at 5th level let them replace diplomacy and gather information with intimidate, and grant skill focus x and y at levels 7 and 11, put iaijutsu focus on their class list (a fightin man's sneak attack), and allow retraining, even of class armor and shield proficiencies. Who cares if the fighter retrained his light armor proficiency but not his heavy armor prof? This way, the fighter can contribute to non-fighty things. They can specialize in certain fighting chains (exotic weapon two weapon fighting like a drow or finesse expertise disarmatrix). While casters get 2 to 3 new class abilities (as spells) in addition to bonus feats, familiars, domains, reserve feats, etc, it is totally fine to grant the generic fighter the opportunity to retrain off the additional 1st level glut of free feats that he'll never use.


This will make barbarians fade into the background a bit, cuz of the HD thing. Let them whirl pounce ACF without making the lion totem part of the necessary fluff.

[Brova]

The Dungeonomicon has one of the better Monk fixes. Found here (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28547) (scroll down to the third post).

[SangoProduction]

The Dungeonomicon has one of the better Monk fixes. Found here (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28547) (scroll down to the third post).

I really like that actually. It's a true remaster that is an actual martial artist.

[Extra Anchovies]

Take the aforementioned Sidewinder Monk (thanks for recommending that one, Curmudgeon. It's great). Give it full BAB, a d10 HD, 8+Int skills, and ki strike (good or evil) at level 14. Open the bonus feats to any monk bonus feats from any (non-Martial Monk) monk class variant, as well as any non-monk feat for which the monk can qualify. Then add these two features:

Total Perfection of the Spirit: at 3rd level, a monk chooses one 1st-level divine spell with a range of personal. They gain that spell as a spell-like ability, usable at will. At 5th level and every two levels thereafter, they gain an additional divine spell as a spell-like ability usable at will. For each divine spell they learn beyond the first one, the maximum level of the spell increases by 1. For example, a 5th-level monk may select a 2nd-level divine spell, a 7th-level monk may select a 3rd-level divine spell, and so on. Any effects that are dependent on casting ability modifier use Wisdom for those purposes.

Total Perfection of the Mind: at 4th level, a monk chooses one 1st-level arcane spell with a range of personal. They gain that spell as a spell-like ability, usable at will. At 6th level and every two levels thereafter, they gain an additional arcane spell as a spell-like ability usable at will. For each arcane spell they learn beyond the first one, the maximum level of the spell increases by 1. For example, a 6th-level monk may select a 2nd-level arcane spell, an 8th-level monk may select a 3rd-level arcane spell, and so on. Any effects that are dependent on casting ability modifier use Wisdom for those purposes.

Got the idea from a previous monk fix thread.

[Psyren]

Unchained Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained) + free Combat Stamina (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/stamina-and-combat-tricks-optional-rules) gets there for me personally.

[frost890]

Ok. I have to say I never understood what the issue everyone has with the monk class. In 3.0/3.5 you get flurry of blows which adds an attack if you mix it with TWF you can get as many attacks as a ranger. Like the Rogue and the Ranger they are light skirmish fighters. get in do what you need to do and get out. They have hide and move silently, so they can back up the Rogue while still not sticking out like a sore thumb. At higher levels you can hit hard (unarmed damage+weapon gloves+Poison or powder to blind them) get their attention while the rogue gets back to the safety of the group. then you have the speed to run back and get the distance to regroup. Disarming and tripping are insanely useful in a group when you think about attacks of opportunity. You do not need to worry about penalties to jump/swim/climb from armor so you can send them up/across to tie off the rope. Things like slings using thunder stones or rocks with explosive runes are useful. Give the torch to them then they do not have to drop it to pull out a weapon. send the monk in to negotiate with diplomacy skill. If things go bad have the rogue with ranged sneak attack fire potshots at the flanked target while you take any attacks of opportunity. I have always found it is more what you do with what you have then what you have. We had a wizard using a bow for the first few levels. The first spell he used was fire ball. Several of the players were surprised we had a spell caster in the party.
I say put weapon finesse on a elf monk and use the racial Prof with bow. You can use the speed boost to keep out of range.

[Troacctid]

In 3.0/3.5 you get flurry of blows which adds an attack if you mix it with TWF you can get as many attacks as a ranger. Like the Rogue and the Ranger they are light skirmish fighters. get in do what you need to do and get out.

Impossible. You can't use flurry of blows while moving more than 5 feet. It's right there in the ability.

[Extra Anchovies]

Ok. I have to say I never understood what the issue everyone has with the monk class. In 3.0/3.5 you get flurry of blows which adds an attack if you mix it with TWF you can get as many attacks as a ranger.

Yeah, but those attacks are at average BAB. Also TWF without sneak attack and/or skirmish always results in horrible damage, whether on a Ranger or on a Monk. Ranger's only a tier above monk because they have casting, and at the end of the day they can do just fine THFing a greatsword, unlike the monk (who lacks the BAB for Power Attack to be useful).

Also mixing TWF with flurry means everything's at -4 off of what is already average BAB.


Like the Rogue and the Ranger they are light skirmish fighters. get in do what you need to do and get out.

That may be what's intended, but they can't do that at all well.


They have hide and move silently, so they can back up the Rogue while still not sticking out like a sore thumb.

Being relegated to scouting ahead is a really bad thing. Sending a player character out to gather intel is a great way for that character to die. Use summons or divination instead.


At higher levels you can hit hard (unarmed damage+weapon gloves+Poison or powder to blind them) get their attention while the rogue gets back to the safety of the group. then you have the speed to run back and get the distance to regroup.

I don't know what "weapon gloves" are, so a citation would be nice. If you mean gauntlets and similar, those don't actually use unarmed damage dice. A 20th-level monk wearing gauntlets deals a d3 of damage with them.

Oh, and "get the enemies' attention, then hope you can outrun them" is a great way to die quickly.


Disarming and tripping are insanely useful in a group when you think about attacks of opportunity.

Disarming is useless against a dragon, or an owlbear, or a beholder, or a spellcaster, or anyone who doesn't rely on manufactured weapons.

Tripping is alright, but the monk is MAD enough without paying the Int tax for Combat Expertise that other classes (notably the Barbarian, thanks to Wolf Totem and full BAB) can do it a lot better.


You do not need to worry about penalties to jump/swim/climb from armor so you can send them up/across to tie off the rope.

That becomes irrelevant fast when flight comes into play. If a class is only good prior to level 7 or so, it's not a good class.


Things like slings using thunder stones or rocks with explosive runes are useful.

Those are thunder stones and explosive runes being useful, not the monk. Needing to rely on something that another class has to provide for you (alchemy is caster-exclusive, after all) does not make for a good class.


Give the torch to them then they do not have to drop it to pull out a weapon.

Somehow "being able to hold the torch" makes the monk a good class? The wizard can hold the torch too.


send the monk in to negotiate with diplomacy skill.

Having Diplomacy as a class skill is indeed one of its very few good features.


If things go bad have the rogue with ranged sneak attack fire potshots at the flanked target while you take any attacks of opportunity.

I... don't see how being a monk helps with this. Also, sneak attack only applies when you are flanking the target, not when the target is flanked by just anyone, so archer rogues need to deny dex to AC somehow (it's part of what makes rogues terrible archers).


I have always found it is more what you do with what you have then what you have. We had a wizard using a bow for the first few levels. The first spell he used was fire ball. Several of the players were surprised we had a spell caster in the party.

It is true that Player > Build > Class. But we're not talking about players or builds here, we're talking about classes.


I say put weapon finesse on a elf monk and use the racial Prof with bow. You can use the speed boost to keep out of range.

When the class made for fighting unarmed is not best used to fight unarmed, it is a poorly designed class.

[Curmudgeon]

Impossible. You can't use flurry of blows while moving more than 5 feet. It's right there in the ability.
I don't see that anywhere in the Flurry of Blows description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#flurryofBlows). All I see is this:
A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.
Especially for a Monk, that doesn't set a hard 5' limit.

Once she has completed the required training, the monk is allowed to make a 10-foot adjustment whenever she can normally make a 5 foot adjustment.

[Nightcanon]

Couple of ideas (will leave to others to suggest what level these should kick in).
Elemental mastery: deal your choice of elemental damage when attacking unarmed (giving an advantage over non-monks, who need a flaming sword and a frost sword and a shocking sword etc).
Unarmed strikes gain reach: the power of ki allows unarmed strikes to propogate through the aether (visually I'm thinking more Gandalf vs Saruman in the FotR movie rather than Elastigirl).
Move *and* Flurry, not one or t'other.

[Pluto!]

I take the Psychic Warrior power progression in one hand, the Monk class in the other, and clap vigorously.

But then, I glue the Bard, Psychic Warrior and Artificer advancement tables onto a lot of things.

[Rubik]

Since monk unarmed strikes are treated as manufactured weapons, you can use weapon crystals with them, so long as you either find a way to count as masterwork or have a +1 enhancement bonus or greater, so energy damage on unarmed strikes, ghost touch, etc are easy to get.

[Thurbane]

I think full BAB and an innate pounce-type ability would fix most of a Monk's issues, wouldn't it?

[frost890]

A few things to clear up. What I meant by weapon gloves is enchant some gloves. I used some gloves with silver studs at one point. Also I have never seen anything that prevents you from enchanting cloth with offensive capabilities.

Using something supplied by another class happens all the time. Arrows, bullets and bolts are all made by someone. A magic sword, axe or bow for the fighters are made by other classes. The only difference is one is meant to be used more than once.

Scouts are better in pairs. It gives you some backup with out having to many people that can be spotted. That is what I meant on the scouting.

[Rubik]

I think full BAB and an innate pounce-type ability would fix most of a Monk's issues, wouldn't it?How about some level-appropriate abilities past, say, level 2? Because monks don't get any. Hell, the capstone is almost as good as a level 1 spell.

Also, less MAD.


A few things to clear up. What I meant by weapon gloves is enchant some gloves. I used some gloves with silver studs at one point. Also I have never seen anything that prevents you from enchanting cloth with offensive capabilities.

Using something supplied by another class happens all the time. Arrows, bullets and bolts are all made by someone. A sword, axe or bow for the fighters are made by other classes. The only difference is one is meant to be used more than once.See my earlier post. I made a damned fine monk using innate monk abilities with magic items focused on the monk's unarmed strike.

[Jormengand]

Haven't really had a good look, but this prestige monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428499-Monk-of-the-Path-%28D-amp-D-3-5-prc%29-Feel-free-to-suggest-your-own-paths) looks interesting.

However, you do say "Bring me your monks", so I have to offer up the Ineffable Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406572-The-Ineffable-Disciple-%28PEACH%29). Maybe an unarmed Veteran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428437-quot-Stand-back-boy-and-let-me-show-you-war!-quot-%283-5-class-PEACH%29) would do it.

[SangoProduction]

Haven't really had a good look, but this prestige monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428499-Monk-of-the-Path-%28D-amp-D-3-5-prc%29-Feel-free-to-suggest-your-own-paths) looks interesting.

However, you do say "Bring me your monks", so I have to offer up the Ineffable Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406572-The-Ineffable-Disciple-%28PEACH%29). Maybe an unarmed Veteran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428437-quot-Stand-back-boy-and-let-me-show-you-war!-quot-%283-5-class-PEACH%29) would do it.

It's quite gratifying to see that mine is seen as interesting.
Those other ones...quite...powerful. I mean, full BAB, saves, and the highest hit die in the base game for the Disciple. And 3 feats in 1 level for the Vet.
Perhaps I don't play at a high enough OP to see their weaknesses (aside from spell casting), or maybe I'm undervaluing spell casting, but those seem somewhat excessive.

[Jormengand]

It's quite gratifying to see that mine is seen as interesting.
Those other ones...quite...powerful. I mean, full BAB, saves, and the highest hit die in the base game for the Disciple. And 3 feats in 1 level for the Vet.
Perhaps I don't play at a high enough OP to see their weaknesses (aside from spell casting), or maybe I'm undervaluing spell casting, but those seem somewhat excessive.

They're designed to stand up to the wizard in power, rather than, say, the bard. That's why the Veteran is crazily powerful. Also, the ban on using magic, psionics or maneuvers or accepting magical or psionic aid (including items) really, really hurts the veteran.

[Psyren]

I think full BAB and an innate pounce-type ability would fix most of a Monk's issues, wouldn't it?


How about some level-appropriate abilities past, say, level 2? Because monks don't get any.

Also, less MAD.

Unchained Monks get all of these. It is still MAD though, albeit less.

[Sith_Happens]

I take the Psychic Warrior power progression in one hand, the Monk class in the other, and clap vigorously.

There's actually a feat for that.

[Pluto!]

There's actually a feat for that.
True, but I frankly prefer to rewrite classes than to ask players to dredge through splat books. It's just easier for everyone, and tends to have less clumsy results.