How does no magic campaigns workout?

[Th3N3xtGuy]

In a lot of the pen and paper games magic is important foundation for events. But has anyone here played a campaign with no magic, period, in it? How did that play out?

[Extra Anchovies]

It's possible but difficult. Monsters are balanced with the idea that the party will have access to magic. Without magic, many of them will be far too dangerous for their CR (e.g. invisible creatures or those with DR/magic). Enemies with character classes, on the other hand, work well enough as long as they are restricted to the same lack of magic. Environmental hazards also work well; crossing a chasm is tough without fly.

[Flickerdart]

Poorly, one would assume.

There are rather few classes that have no spells, Ps, Sp, or Su abilities at all. These classes, without magic support, can't stack up against threats that have no such abilities, because those threats tend to get things like flight, lots of natural attacks, humongous size, etc. You need to rejigger the CR of every monster.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Magic is foundational to D&D. As others have noted, the entire game was written with the assumption that players will have magic-- especially magic items. The ever-increasing levels of magic armor, stat-boosting items, cloaks of resistance and so on are absolutely assumed by... heck, by the entire structure of the game. Look at the very most basic maneuver: an attack. The attack roll scales with level. AC does not-- the only increase comes from increasingly shiny items. In addition, Wizards of the Coast was really bad at writing non-caster classes. The ones that do exist are among the weakest and mechanically simplest that exist. (Tome of Battle classes being a notable exception). So even if you adapt work-arounds for scaling, and go over monsters with a fine-toothed comb, a barbarian/fighter/rogue/scout party is going to be a lot more homogenous than your archetypical fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue. On the other hand, D&D is far from the only pen and paper game. Plenty of other games don't assume magic in the same way D&D does, or don't even have rules for it. Check out things like Fate, Savage Worlds, Burning Wheel...even d20 Modern or Star Wars Saga Edition would work fine with just tech.

Mechanics aside? It's fine. You can still have interesting fights and plots, it's just harder to get to exotic locations and to justify McGruffins.

[Necroticplague]

In the land of no magic, the templated man is king. Without healing magic, Fast Healing or regeneration become way more valuable. Without magic that lets you get abilities, you need to resort to templates or races to get basic needed abilities. It becomes incredibly hard to find high CR challenged that can be dealt with, because they tend to have abilities you expected to use magic to deal with (flight, incorporeal, DR, invisibility, SLAs, regeneration). It tends to not feel much like normal dnd, which lets normal people go against monsters, instead encouraging ou to become one yourself. Without spells that ignore it, DR is much more useful. The standard melee templates are even more useful than normal (feral, dragonborn, mineralized warrior, half-goristro, shadow).

[Nifft]

In a lot of the pen and paper games magic is important foundation for events. But has anyone here played a campaign with no magic, period, in it? How did that play out?

It can work out well... in games which are not D&D.

[Venger]

It doesn't. If you want a no magic game, D&D is not a great fit for you. many monsters, even at very low levels, are undefeatable without it and will destroy your party, like shadows

[Curmudgeon]

I have both played in and created games that were D&D without magic available (very large null magic zone, a nonmagical plane, or whatever). They were lots of fun. It's considerably more work for the DM, because you don't have many monsters available without magical abilities. Characters either find a way to get Fast Healing, or you buy lots of Healing Salve (Tome and Blood, page 72).

[Sagetim]

Iron Heroes presents a system that works with no magic in the hands of the party, but it can be a tremendous pain in the ass for the players.

Without magic your players are going to be far more suceptible to mundane dangers like disease, sickness, poisons, and just straight damage. While a party with a wizard could walk through a sewer and get the crap off with prestidigitation to avoid catching anything, anyone doing that in a no magic setting is going to get sewage in any wounds they might have and have to make at least one fort save vs disease, probably a few fort saves. That's assuming the setting even has sewers and people aren't just emptying their crap buckets into the street. In those cases, you're going to be making disease saves every day you're in town probably, and any time you drink from a stream you'll probably need to make more disease saves...eating anything raw? save vs food poisoning or disease.

The quality of food is going to be lower in general too, because while farmers might have some tricks here and there to try and discourage bugs from going after their crops, they don't have science based chemicals like DDT to kill stuff, nor do they have magic to keep their stuff safe.

Damage is going to be a pain in the ass for adventurers, because unless they invest in certain feats they are going to have to stay in bed just to recover hp, and they're going to need the ministrations of a well trained healer to heal with any kind of speed. Rapid Metabolism (a non-psionic feat from the expanded psionics handbook) helps, and stacks with Faster Healing from Complete Warrior. Even with both of those and a well trained healer you're going to be laid up for days if you were reduced by any significant amount.

Heavy Armor and sword and boarding are going to be your best bet for AC. You don't have magic to boost your AC, you don't have monk to allow for wisdom to AC, and even if you're allowed to take Iajutsu Master, that's int bonus to ac without armor. There's just not a lot of options for getting good ac, especially at low level.

Damage reduction is going to get you killed. You could potentially take out a troll by out damaging it's fast healing until it's in the negatives and finish it off with some torches...but that dretch with 5/good or whatever it has? that's going to suck to fight, and it's only cr 2. Something with 10 DR is going to be a monster to fight, no matter how easy it is to hit or how weak it's hits are, simply because it's going to be shrugging off most of your party's attacks. Without magic, your weapons aren't going to get any better (unless you happen to have a gm that's willing to let in Master Smith from magic of rokugan, who can create weapons and armor of such exceptional craftsmanship that they have a nonmagical enhancement bonus of up to +4). Even then, aligned dr's are going to ignore your rokugani steel, and special material weapons like cold iron and alchemical silver can't benefit from the rokugani steel bonus.

Damage reduction also screws with rogues, because as far as I am aware, you have to deal some amount of damage with the weapon damage to add your sneak attack dice.

If you want to go off the beaten path for campaign settings, there's a game of thrones d20 system based off of BESM d20. It's so low magic that to have a single spell requires a feat and even then it hates you and doesn't generally work right. If the DM even lets you take the feat.

Also carrying things. Carry capacity will become your worst enemy without bags of holding to stuff **** in. On the bright side, you'll probably find a use for hirelings, but good luck getting trustworthy hirelings.

Religious fanatics are probably going to be a nightmare too, because there's no divine magic. Which means that there's no 'real' authority when it comes to religions in the setting. None of them can say 'mine is real because I can clap my hands and literally raise you from a skeleton to a person'. etc. So depending on the DM, you might have a Lot of cults running around claiming to be the one true faith and smiting eachother and anyone that doesn't bow down to them. Oddly enough, having real divine magic in a setting gives the npcs an incentive to treat each other in a more civilized manner (like having pants and a gun in Day Z).

With no magic, childhood injuries are more likely to cause permanent lifelong issues. Did you break a bone as a kid? It may not have been set right, which could lead to a life as a hobbled individual whose every step is pain. If you even survived to adulthood. Chickenpox? You might just be Dead.

There's a lot of problems that are caused by a lack of magic in a medieval fantasy setting. And that's even assuming the setting could get to the middle ages with monsters around.

[Curmudgeon]

Damage is going to be a pain in the ass for adventurers, because unless they invest in certain feats they are going to have to stay in bed just to recover hp.
See my post about Healing Salve above.

... you don't have monk to allow for wisdom to AC
Why not?
AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC.
There are plenty of magical Monk abilities which wouldn't work, but AC Bonus isn't one of them.


Damage reduction also screws with rogues, because as far as I am aware, you have to deal some amount of damage with the weapon damage to add your sneak attack dice.
That's not right. Sneak attack is part of the total damage (and is usually of the same type as the base attack). Add it all up, and then subtract DR.

Also carrying things. Carry capacity will become your worst enemy without bags of holding to stuff **** in.
Strength becomes a more important stat, and pack animals and wagons get used more.

[Sagetim]

See my post about Healing Salve above.

Why not?
There are plenty of magical Monk abilities which wouldn't work, but AC Bonus isn't one of them.


That's not right. Sneak attack is part of the total damage (and is usually of the same type as the base attack). Add it all up, and then subtract DR.

Strength becomes a more important stat, and pack animals and wagons get used more.

I was thinking of a different thread where they said no monk. Bearing in mind that monks don't get their supernatural abilities, they would probably be a lot more useful with their unarmed damage dice and EX abilities.

In any case, no magic settings can get very brutal very quickly. It also depends on what you're willing to allow as a DM. For example, the tome of battle classes have mostly Extroidinary abilities, which wouldn't get hampered in a lack of magic. Large swaths of some disciplines would be removed because they've got supernatural moves and stances, but by and large those tome of battle classes could take over in a no magic setting (assuming they existed in it).

[noob]

That is those disease wounds and poisoning and famine who makes all the charm of far past(Also make yourself sure that you have someone with maxed ranks in first heal or maybe even take the feat for having class skills you are really going to need it)
Also if it is 100% no magic a lot of templates becomes outright impossible to get(You can not really become a ghost when there is no glimpse of magic since they seem pretty dependent of it(intangible stuff often have trouble in antimagic zones and you can not change plane without magic)) and also it is more logical that fast healing does not exists(simply because it does not have any vague physical meaning) But the really cool thing in a no magic or physical incoherence campaign is that now your well trained tactician can think in a world who makes sense(And not have to think about what would happen if suddenly a magician appeared and made a giant shower of 465643734658389569579563 light-speed killing asteroids destroying the earth).

[Venger]

I have both played in and created games that were D&D without magic available (very large null magic zone, a nonmagical plane, or whatever). They were lots of fun. It's considerably more work for the DM, because you don't have many monsters available without magical abilities. Characters either find a way to get Fast Healing, or you buy lots of Healing Salve (Tome and Blood, page 72).

Very true. However these threads usually don't involve the gm removing magic/su abilities from monsters, just pcs.

[noob]

He said "no magic, period, in it"
So his monsters will not have that.

[Curmudgeon]

Very true. However these threads usually don't involve the gm removing magic/su abilities from monsters, just pcs.
Well, that strikes me as just wrong. A DM should provide a setting where the world makes some sort of sense. Having magic, which is known to operate under the usual D&D rules, but making it arbitrarily unavailable to PCs, isn't sensible. Having a setting where there's no magic at all is sensible, and different, and challenging. I'm glad we're not dealing with that here.

Some things are easy fixes: DR/magic becomes DR/— because there's nothing that can overcome it in a nonmagical setting. Some things are harder, like figuring out the CRs after you make these changes. :smallbiggrin:

[Vrock_Summoner]

Well, that strikes me as just wrong. A DM should provide a setting where the world makes some sort of sense. Having magic, which is known to operate under the usual D&D rules, but making it arbitrarily unavailable to PCs, isn't sensible. Having a setting where there's no magic at all is sensible, and different, and challenging.

On the other hand, making all-purpose textbook-learned magic unavailable to humanoids without stripping all magical qualities from a world can absolutely work. Still, you'd be right that such doesn't seem to be the intention of the OP.

[Venger]

Well, that strikes me as just wrong. A DM should provide a setting where the world makes some sort of sense. Having magic, which is known to operate under the usual D&D rules, but making it arbitrarily unavailable to PCs, isn't sensible. Having a setting where there's no magic at all is sensible, and different, and challenging. I'm glad we're not dealing with that here.

Some things are easy fixes: DR/magic becomes DR/— because there's nothing that can overcome it in a nonmagical setting. Some things are harder, like figuring out the CRs after you make these changes. :smallbiggrin:

I agree wholeheartedly, which is usually the advice given when that comes up.

yeah, CR's always tricky, especially when dealing with non-offense stuff like senses, which are harder to bypass for nondarkstalkers without magic.

[A Tad Insane]

If applied to NPC, PC and monsters equally, it generally balances out. The dm handbook will become the primary source of encounters, as tons of monsters are either a) magical or b) balanced around magic. It'll start to mirror real life in some regards, as the fighter can no longer rely on mage armor to boost his ac, and any damage he takes will last longer, so a shield becomes more attractive than two handing has enemies get higher ba. Rogues will become more dangerous, as nothing will be immune to sneak attacks in this world. Good luck finding anyone with knowledge skills, though. Without basic utilities such as conjure food/water and teleport, travel will become a much bigger deal. Class selection will be slashed, with the most powerful class without a su, sp, pp or spells being the warblade.

[Venger]

If applied to NPC, PC and monsters equally, it generally balances out. The dm handbook will become the primary source of encounters, as tons of monsters are either a) magical or b) balanced around magic. It'll start to mirror real life in some regards, as the fighter can no longer rely on mage armor to boost his ac, and any damage he takes will last longer, so a shield becomes more attractive than two handing has enemies get higher ba. Rogues will become more dangerous, as nothing will be immune to sneak attacks in this world. Good luck finding anyone with knowledge skills, though. Without basic utilities such as conjure food/water and teleport, travel will become a much bigger deal. Class selection will be slashed, with the most powerful class without a su, sp, pp or spells being the warblade.

again, if this is what you want, as people in this and threads like it have said, why're you using D&D as a system? it's not a great fit.

[TheCrowing1432]

Not very well.


If you want to play non magic, there are other tabletop games.

[SangoProduction]

Why play a no magic campaign in D&D when you could play the basic D20 system and get a ****e ton more out of it?

[Curmudgeon]

again, if this is what you want, as people in this and threads like it have said, why're you using D&D as a system? it's not a great fit.
It doesn't have to be a great fit. D&D has so many classes (around a thousand) and feats (over 3 thousand) that even discarding everything that's magical still leaves lots to work with. So why learn a new system when the one you've already got can do the job, and still be (a somewhat different kind of) fun?

[Andezzar]

On the other hand, making all-purpose textbook-learned magic unavailable to humanoids without stripping all magical qualities from a world can absolutely work. Still, you'd be right that such doesn't seem to be the intention of the OP.To even have a bit of verisimilitude, you would have to radically change the setting from the usual human-dominated fantasy setting. Humans and other PHB races would simply be enslaved by many of the magical creatures in the MM. Human ingenuity only goes so far if other creatures can bend reality to their will.

[noob]

You can not name a campaign no magic campaign if everyone is enslaved by magical creatures made of pure magic and spitting magic and shouting magic and turning stuff into magic.

[Andezzar]

Of course not, I was commenting on making magic unavailable to humanoids only.

[Necroticplague]

In which case, the setting still has to radically change to account for the non-existence of such creatures. Pretty much all outsiders of alignments are out, so that takes out the ability to become an outsider on death, which has major effects on the cosmology. No magic would also require no divinity (as gods can cast spells from domains they provide), again drastically changing how the world works.

[heavyfuel]

Currently playing in a friend's zero magic campaing. By zero magic I mean zero magic, psionics, Su and SP abilities, Magical Creatures, etc. Here's some input from the top of my head.


There are A LOT of houserules in place (especially with the Heal skill)
Still, adventuring days last no more than 5 minutes.
It's WAY too easy to hit things, since no one will have AC much higher than 20, so power attackers get an even greater advantage.
Sneak Attack sucks since 80% of the enemies will have Uncanny Dodge.
Will saves are borderline useless. So classes like the Knight and the Marshal get, somehow, even worse.
Favored Enemy (Human) and Kowledge Devotion + K.Local are the strongest options by a few hundred miles.
Tripping makes you unbeatable since you can still get ridiculous bonus to do it, but it's almost impossible to get defense bonuses.
Melee characters are so bad I believe no one without a Wisdom penaly would become one.



It's been really fun, but only because of the company of my friends. I can't say I particularly liked the mundane scenario.

[noob]

Dwarves are not magical and are correct against tripping tactics(+4 against tripping) and are not humans(favored enemy human does not works against them) and are tough(helps a lot more when healing is hard) and of who are you speaking with the term of melee character?(Do not forget rogues are melee and also that even if bows can hit now it still stays extremely limited in power against someone carrying a mundane steel wall(still possible since you still have a correct strength) so what do you speak of by the term of melee characters)

[heavyfuel]

Dwarves are not magical and are correct against tripping tactics(+4 against tripping) and are not humans(favored enemy human does not works against them) and are tough(helps a lot more when healing is hard) and of who are you speaking with the term of melee character?(Do not forget rogues are melee and also that even if bows can hit now it still stays extremely limited in power against someone carrying a mundane steel wall(still possible since you still have a correct strength) so what do you speak of by the term of melee characters)

Getting +4 against tripping is laughable. My current character (lv 8) has a trip modifier of +20 and attacks 4 times per round at a very comfortable distance (Master Thrower). A Dwarf that is optimized not to fall will have a +17 (Str 5 + 4 Dwarf + 8 two Marshals stacking Art of War and Motivate Str), so the odds of him suceeding on staying up are still low. It's simply far easier to get a good offense than it is to get a good defense.

But most important thing about this dwarf is: Not every encounter will have a Marshal Dwarf accompanied by another Marshal that really dislike being prone.

Melee involves any melee. The regular Rogue is probably the single worst combat class since the lack of class options means pretty much everyone will dip 2 lvs in Barbarian/Warblade/Scout at some point, or go for Martial Rogue 4 to get 3 feats and lots of skill for the price of 1 BAB and slightly less HP. He is completely outclassed by the Scout, even if they can't get Travel Devotion.

Warblade and Crusader are decent. But the Crusader's (Ex) healing has been nerfed to Temp HP in the campaign though, so he becomes much less apealing.

[Shadurak]

By the way, can someone recommend a good rpg system for such a campaign? My friend is intrigued in the idea of running a Mediterranean setting with absolutely no magic in it, and I'm on the opinion that DnD 3.5 is not the right choice. We're not familiar with anything else, however. Any suggestions?

[Curmudgeon]

Getting +4 against tripping is laughable. My current character (lv 8) has a trip modifier of +20 and attacks 4 times per round at a very comfortable distance (Master Thrower). A Dwarf that is optimized not to fall will have a +17 (Str 5 + 4 Dwarf + 8 two Marshals stacking Art of War and Motivate Str), so the odds of him suceeding on staying up are still low. It's simply far easier to get a good offense than it is to get a good defense.
Trip attempts get much easy to avoid at higher levels. See page 97 of Complete Adventurer to see that you add your (Balance ranks - 10) rather than resist with a straight DEX check.

[Necroticplague]

By the way, can someone recommend a good rpg system for such a campaign? My friend is intrigued in the idea of running a Mediterranean setting with absolutely no magic in it, and I'm on the opinion that DnD 3.5 is not the right choice. We're not familiar with anything else, however. Any suggestions?

GURPS is pretty good for a non0magic campaign. Just put restrictions on what Advantages can be taken.

[Venger]

It doesn't have to be a great fit. D&D has so many classes (around a thousand) and feats (over 3 thousand) that even discarding everything that's magical still leaves lots to work with. So why learn a new system when the one you've already got can do the job, and still be (a somewhat different kind of) fun?

okay, well, then use the system. I'm sure one of the myriad d20 based games or dnd licensed products could replicate the story the DM's trying to tell better because the whole game's not balanced around PCs and monters having magic


By the way, can someone recommend a good rpg system for such a campaign? My friend is intrigued in the idea of running a Mediterranean setting with absolutely no magic in it, and I'm on the opinion that DnD 3.5 is not the right choice. We're not familiar with anything else, however. Any suggestions?

try unknown armies. it's pretty quick to pick up and has fun setting stuff for all over the world since travel's a big part of assumed gameplay.

[marphod]

By the way, can someone recommend a good rpg system for such a campaign? My friend is intrigued in the idea of running a Mediterranean setting with absolutely no magic in it, and I'm on the opinion that DnD 3.5 is not the right choice. We're not familiar with anything else, however. Any suggestions?

Iron Heroes. d20 based.

It deals with a lot of the issues mentioned in the thread. Characters heal faster, get armor bonuses, and have feats that create for interesting ability scaling over 20 levels.

All (absolutely all) of the Base Classes are replaced. There's some similarity between, say, an Archer and a Ranged-weapon Style Ranger or a Man-At-Arms and a Fighter, but they play differently. No need to worry about how the Monk's SU abilities will break, when there isn't one. Not many prestige classes, but (like Pathfinder tried to do), every class has a reason to take it to its conclusion, so there is less need.

There is more data tracking for the PCs. Almost every PC is going to have at least one combat pool of some sort (similar to the Factorum's Inspiration Points, the Ninja's Ki Pool, etc.), each of which may have vastly different methods to charge it (The archer gets points into their pool for studying their target; the Armor-based class gets it for getting hit, the berserker type gets it for being frustrated). Each PC is going to want to make sure they have a cheat sheet of how their pools work and what they can spend pool points on. That said, it is still less work than a memorizing caster. And the system mostly works. An Iron Heroes party can take on most of the same opponents that a DnD party can, even without magic. Finding non-magical, non-humanoid opponents may be a bit of a problem, though, as IH doesn't do much in that front.

---

As for systems where you can do Fantasy/no-magic or Vaguely-Historical-Fiction without magic:
GURPS or HERO/Champions (both are high game mechanics; character points, not level based)
FATE and derivatives (minimal mechanics; skill focused, not level based)

Torchbearer (LOTS of economic micromanagement. Magic exists, but it certainly isn't necessary to the system; Skill Focuses and Level based, semi-independent systems).

Palladium Fantasy, as the magic system is so bad that you'll want to ignore it (Level based)

[heavyfuel]

Trip attempts get much easy to avoid at higher levels. See page 97 of Complete Adventurer to see that you add your (Balance ranks - 10) rather than resist with a straight DEX check.

Hmm, didn't know about this rule. It makes sense though. Still requires the person to spend quite a lot of ranks in an otherwise pretty useless skill.

[Andezzar]

Hmm, didn't know about this rule. It makes sense though. Still requires the person to spend quite a lot of ranks in an otherwise pretty useless skill.Moving the grease spell or similar slippery surfaces without problems, not being flat-footed while balancing and being able to charge in situations that usually prevent it (RotW, possibly SW) is far from useless.

[Urpriest]

By the way, can someone recommend a good rpg system for such a campaign? My friend is intrigued in the idea of running a Mediterranean setting with absolutely no magic in it, and I'm on the opinion that DnD 3.5 is not the right choice. We're not familiar with anything else, however. Any suggestions?

If you're looking for something familiar, d20 Past should do the job fine.

[iceifur]

It probably works better in an E-type setting (be it E6, E8, or whatever).

[ShaneMRoth]

As this Thread appears in the D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 sub-forum, I'm not going to refer to any other game system.

One approach would be to establish that the game functions as if the "dead magic" rules applied at all times...

SRD (Planes; Dead Magic)

These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally.

This would nerf every supernatural player character class ability.

Supernatural creatures would be nerfed also. The Beholders can still fly, and they would still have their bite attacks. But other than that, they are limited to Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Look At The Hell Out Of You). They are still Evil Geniuses, and remain creepy as the day is long... so, there's that.


...
In the land of no magic, the templated man is king. Without healing magic, Fast Healing or regeneration become way more valuable. Without magic that lets you get abilities, you need to resort to templates or races to get basic needed abilities. ...



If applied to NPC, PC and monsters equally, it generally balances out.


Both of these quotes seem like they would play in such a setting.

[Curmudgeon]

Hmm, didn't know about this rule. It makes sense though. Still requires the person to spend quite a lot of ranks in an otherwise pretty useless skill.
"Pretty useless" really isn't accurate if your DM pays attention to the rules. Uneven flagstones in the courtyard? You need a Balance check. A hewn stone floor in the palace? You need a Balance check. Every character needs 5 ranks in Balance already just so they're not treated as flat-footed constantly on any of these surfaces.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. You're probably going to get +2 to your Balance checks from having 5+ ranks in Tumble, a not useless skill, which also gives you a boost to your AC when you fight defensively.

[Razanir]

You'd need a different set of rules for healing and a different source for bonuses. PF actually does have an automatic bonus progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/automatic-bonus-progression). And any wounds and vigor rules would work, or just speeding up HP gain. The issue is that magic is currently the only way to regain HP en masse.

[Necroticplague]

You'd need a different set of rules for healing and a different source for bonuses. PF actually does have an automatic bonus progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/automatic-bonus-progression). And any wounds and vigor rules would work, or just speeding up HP gain. The issue is that magic is currently the only way to regain HP en masse.

Unless you count Fast Healing or Regeneration.

[Razanir]

Unless you count Fast Healing or Regeneration.

The only way easily accessible to players, at least with the parts of the system I know. (I don't know splatbooks that well) It still stands that you'd want to increase healing rates.

[Necroticplague]

The only way easily accessible to players, at least with the parts of the system I know. (I don't know splatbooks that well) It still stands that you'd want to increase healing rates.

Feral template: LA+1, any humanoid or monstrous humanoid. Gives fast healing that scales with level
Troll-blooded:feat, requires first level and Toughness.Grants Regen 1/fire or acid, but makes you fatigued in sunlight.

[noob]

" Troll-blooded:feat, requires first level and Toughness.Grants Regen 1/fire or acid, but makes you fatigued in sunlight. "
Seems really cool since fire and acid damage are a lot less potent in a no magic campaign and so will be used a lot less often(also fatigued in sunlight is not so much inconvenient).
You might try PF unchained skills uses for your no magic campaign(with for example a super huge improvement in first healing)

[Curmudgeon]

The only way easily accessible to players, at least with the parts of the system I know.
You can select Fast Healing [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#fastHealing) if you're a Dragonwrought Kobold with a couple of templates that boost CON (Lolth-Touched is +6, as is Half-Minotaur if you're going from Medium to Large; Half-Minotaur (Small -> Medium), Blooded, and Mineral Warrior are all +4 each).

You could be a Half-Minotaur Kobold with Dragonwrought as your level 1 feat; that makes your type Dragon and gives you +4 CON as a Medium Kobold. Advance to Old age and you'll qualify for Epic feats. Acquire Lolth-Touched before level 3 and you'll get another +6 to CON. With CON 25 you qualify for Fast Healing [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#fastHealing), so that would be your level 3 feat. You'll be at ECL 5 due to the +2 LA, but you can buy those off, -1 LA each at class levels 6 & 9.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

Currently playing in a friend's zero magic campaing. By zero magic I mean zero magic, psionics, Su and SP abilities, Magical Creatures, etc. Here's some input from the top of my head..

I wouldn't consider psionic as magical but okay.

[Curmudgeon]

I wouldn't consider psionic as magical but okay.
The transparency rule treats psionics as magic, and that's the default. It's just magic based on a different system.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

The transparency rule treats psionics as magic, and that's the default. It's just magic based on a different system.

I guess that part would be up to the DM. I personally would allow it because its more of pseudo-science. While the belief magic IRL was a form of spirituality.

[Nifft]

I guess that part would be up to the DM. I personally would allow it because its more of pseudo-science. While the belief magic IRL was a form of spirituality.
IRL has no hold over D&D.

That said, you're entirely wrong about the history of real-life "magic".

D&D uses the archetype of the smart-wizard spellcaster because study, learning, and intelligence were already associated with magic in literature, history and popular culture. Spells can be researched because magic was always a thing which could be studied.

[Necroticplague]

Psionics is more similar to the magic I've known from other sources than the actual spellcasting system. The only thing remotely pseudo-scientific is the more creative names of the powers.

[SinsI]

In a lot of the pen and paper games magic is important foundation for events. But has anyone here played a campaign with no magic, period, in it? How did that play out?
Define "no magic", please.
Is all the world permanently covered in Anti-Magic Field?
What classes are available? What monsters exist?
Do abilities like Crusader's Strike work?

[Th3N3xtGuy]

Define "no magic", please.
Is all the world permanently covered in Anti-Magic Field?
What classes are available? What monsters exist?
Do abilities like Crusader's Strike work?

In this hypothetical situation. No magic can or ever existed here. No creations from it either. No Undead, Paladins, etc. Gods and Fiends can't make contact except through dreams and most people forget what there dream is about 5 minutes later anyways. They have never been summoned before in history. I would allows some supernatural abilities and treat them like mutations or results of extreme training.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

Psionics is more similar to the magic I've known from other sources than the actual spellcasting system. The only thing remotely pseudo-scientific is the more creative names of the powers.

The reason I say pseudo-science is because it is kind of like having psychic powers which you could use Marvels excuse that a mutation caused these "powers". Mechanically its like magic but that more for balance reasons.

[Andezzar]

The reason I say pseudo-science is because it is kind of like having psychic powers which you could use Marvels excuse that a mutation caused these "powers". Mechanically its like magic but that more for balance reasons.You could do the same thing with non-prepared casters. AFAIK the rules make no such restrictions for either type of classes.

[Necroticplague]

The reason I say pseudo-science is because it is kind of like having psychic powers which you could use Marvels excuse that a mutation caused these "powers". Mechanically its like magic but that more for balance reasons.

And this can't be done with magic because.......?

[Taveena]

The reason I say pseudo-science is because it is kind of like having psychic powers which you could use Marvels excuse that a mutation caused these "powers". Mechanically its like magic but that more for balance reasons.

Just saying, Pixie is a member of the X-Men who can cast magical spells. S'not... actually her power, but still.

[Mechalich]

D&D is not designed to work with no magic and while it may be possible to balance it out by removing all magical abilities from everything, that balance is going to take unusual forms.

I suspect those existing non-magical abilities which were capable of competing with magical ones before are now going to be king, since the majority of 3.X or Pathfinder abilities gave magic more power than non-magical ones.

Additionally, adjudicating character creation and advancement in such a system would be brutally challenging, there's lots of extra work built into it. Utilizing an alternative system probably makes more sense, since you will hopefully have the experience of other designers to rely upon as a guide.

Besides, mechanical issues aside, D&D is not designed to model heroic adventure in a non-magical world. That sort of fantasy is not what it is intended to represent, the flavor of a zero magic D&D world is going to feel off.

[Troacctid]

"Pretty useless" really isn't accurate if your DM pays attention to the rules. Uneven flagstones in the courtyard? You need a Balance check. A hewn stone floor in the palace? You need a Balance check. Every character needs 5 ranks in Balance already just so they're not treated as flat-footed constantly on any of these surfaces. You're probably going to get +2 to your Balance checks from having 5+ ranks in Tumble, a not useless skill, which also gives you a boost to your AC when you fight defensively.

Uneven flagstones and hewn stone floors are marked as "Only if running or charging" in the Balance rules...that would seem to imply that you only need to balance on those surfaces while running or charging.

[Andezzar]

Uneven flagstones and hewn stone floors are marked as "Only if running or charging" in the Balance rules...that would seem to imply that you only need to balance on those surfaces while running or charging.And you never want to run or charge over those surfaces? Uneven flagstones and hewn stone floors sound pretty standard for dungeons.
Balance allows charging across tree branches (RotW) and various possibly moving parts of ships (SW) as well. Who would want or need that?

[Curmudgeon]

Uneven flagstones and hewn stone floors are marked as "Only if running or charging" in the Balance rules...that would seem to imply that you only need to balance on those surfaces while running or charging.
It's D&D. So yeah, I kinda assumed those circumstances would come up.

[heavyfuel]

Moving the grease spell or similar slippery surfaces without problems, not being flat-footed while balancing and being able to charge in situations that usually prevent it (RotW, possibly SW) is far from useless.

A Grease spell in a no magic campaign? I suppose the enemy could carry Lard (DS) arround, but that takes a whole minute to apply. Charging is great, true, but it also puts you in melee, which is really really bad when you have no proper means of healing.


"Pretty useless" really isn't accurate if your DM pays attention to the rules. Uneven flagstones in the courtyard? You need a Balance check. A hewn stone floor in the palace? You need a Balance check. Every character needs 5 ranks in Balance already just so they're not treated as flat-footed constantly on any of these surfaces.

Like I said, being flat-footed just isn't that big of a deal because pretty much everyone will have Uncanny Dodge. Sure, you can't make AoOs (unless you're a Scout or have Combat Reflexes).

I've honestly never seen a DM use these rules, even though I do, so I'm biased towards the skill's usefulness and I definitely think there are better places to put your skill points

[SinsI]

In this hypothetical situation. No magic can or ever existed here. No creations from it either. No Undead, Paladins, etc. Gods and Fiends can't make contact except through dreams and most people forget what there dream is about 5 minutes later anyways. They have never been summoned before in history. I would allows some supernatural abilities and treat them like mutations or results of extreme training.
What about classes like artificer? What about Ki energy and the like? What about Incarnum?

If you allow supernatural abilities, does this mean ToB classes are allowed, too?
What about monsters like flying dragons (they weight so much only magic allows them to fly)?
What about things like Basilisk's petrification?

[Andezzar]

A Grease spell in a no magic campaign? I suppose the enemy could carry Lard (DS) arround, but that takes a whole minute to apply. Charging is great, true, but it also puts you in melee, which is really really bad when you have no proper means of healing.It is not only charging it is also not being caught flat footed. Also the Uber-charger still works in such a setting. If you kill your enemies before they can retaliate it does not matter that healing is difficult. Trading pot shots is more likely to injure you than one decisive (full) attack. One (full) attack kills are much more difficult to achieve with ranged combat (and without magic boosts).


Like I said, being flat-footed just isn't that big of a deal because pretty much everyone will have Uncanny Dodge. Sure, you can't make AoOs (unless you're a Scout or have Combat Reflexes).What makes you say that? Out of the core books only barbarians and rogues gain uncanny dodge. There are still the fighter, the NPC classes and animals, that would definitely exist in a setting without magic.

[heavyfuel]

It is not only charging it is also not being caught flat footed. Also the Uber-charger still works in such a setting. If you kill your enemies before they can retaliate it does not matter that healing is difficult. Trading pot shots is more likely to injure you than one decisive (full) attack. One (full) attack kills are much more difficult to achieve with ranged combat (and without magic boosts).

What makes you say that? Out of the core books only barbarians and rogues gain uncanny dodge. There are still the fighter, the NPC classes and animals, that would definitely exist in a setting without magic.

Uber-chargers do work, that's true. Problem is that you're pretty much bound to kill one, maybe two, characters per charge. If the enemy has a advantage in numbers, your strategy isn't so good. So you need crowd control, and no better mundane way to do it than ranged trip (at least that was the best way I could think of)

"Only" Rogues and Barbarians are 2 out of the 3 PC core classes that don't have spells or (Su) abilities. NPC classes stop being relevant after you're past lv 5. When was the last time you heard of a lv 13 Warrior? I am, of course, talking about my personal experiences as both players and DM, and can say that I've never met a person with NPC class that was higher than lv 6.

[Extra Anchovies]

Uber-chargers do work, that's true. Problem is that you're pretty much bound to kill one, maybe two, characters per charge. If the enemy has a advantage in numbers, your strategy isn't so good. So you need crowd control, and no better mundane way to do it than ranged trip (at least that was the best way I could think of)

Well, a Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur with a reach weapon could easily get multiple creatures within their threatened area when charging one of them. If need be, their first attack at the end of the charge could be with a gauntlet so they can end up 10 feet closer to their charge target than if they'd used the reach weapon.

[heavyfuel]

Well, a Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur with a reach weapon could easily get multiple creatures within their threatened area when charging one of them. If need be, their first attack at the end of the charge could be with a gauntlet so they can end up 10 feet closer to their charge target than if they'd used the reach weapon.

Like I said, in the campaign I'm playing "no magic" also means no monstruous creatures such as ogres or minotaurs.

[Necroticplague]

Like I said, in the campaign I'm playing "no magic" also means no monstruous creatures such as ogres or minotaurs.

Huh? Ogres and minotaurs don't have anything magical about them. Why would 'no magic' exclude them?

[heavyfuel]

Huh? Ogres and minotaurs don't have anything magical about them. Why would 'no magic' exclude them?

They are mythical creatures outside the PHB. That's it.

[Svata]

So what are the PCs gonna fight? Animals and other people with PC classes? Sounds like it'd get boring. Though it would be an excuse for making dire dinosaurs, so there is that.

[marphod]

So what are the PCs gonna fight? Animals and other people with PC classes? Sounds like it'd get boring. Though it would be an excuse for making dire dinosaurs, so there is that.

You could write thousands of stories around interactions with only other humanoids in a fantasy setting without significant magic. Hell, fantasy isn't required for fictional reinterpretations of periods of history that were considerd pretty thrilling: William Wallace. The War of the Roses. The Three Kingdom's Period. The 300 at Thermopoli (sp?), The sacking of Constantinople. The Spanish Recoquesta, Ghingis Khan. The fleet defeated by a typhoon off of Japan. Every succession war ever.

Add in firearms, and you get the Napoleonic Wars, the Conquest of the Americas and more.

for fictional, Robin hood, most of Le Morte D'arthur and Don Quixote. The story of Buhddism. ...

[Necroticplague]

You could write thousands of stories around interactions with only other humanoids in a fantasy setting without significant magic. Hell, fantasy isn't required for fictional reinterpretations of periods of history that were considerd pretty thrilling: William Wallace. The War of the Roses. The Three Kingdom's Period. The 300 at Thermopoli (sp?), The sacking of Constantinople. The Spanish Recoquesta, Ghingis Khan. The fleet defeated by a typhoon off of Japan. Every succession war ever.

Add in firearms, and you get the Napoleonic Wars, the Conquest of the Americas and more.

for fictional, Robin hood, most of Le Morte D'arthur and Don Quixote. The story of Buhddism. ...

Interactions, yes. But not very varied gameplay.

[KoDT69]

Back in AD&D I participated in a low-level, extremely low-treasure, zero magic game. Not only did we get almost nothing of value, but we even had to roll starting HP. I was a Thief (Rogue) with 3hp. There was a single +1 longsword in the entire campaign world, and after a month I got it at level 3. I multi-classed to Fighter and two-handed it, just to be able to use it!