Soooo, the joker

[nintendoh]

I was seriously drunk last night and hit upon a great idea. I will build the joker. Then i asked myself, how would i do that? It sounds much more likely in pathfinder then 3.5. So as a base for future refining this is what i have.

Human chaotic evil pychic rogue with craft alchemy poison. Thats it.

Find a way to do mind effecting attacks and fear... Add poison for the joker venom. Throw on a sexy purple suit of charisma. Take the leadership feat and one level of Apostle of Peace.... Yes that was a joke.

Anyone have a better idea?!?!

[ben-zayb]

Not exactly mechanically faithful, and a lot of people didn't like it, but Schneeky made the Joker Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99903-Batman-s-Bane-The-Joker&p=5496158#post5496158) as a BBEG creation exercise vs the Batman Wizard.

[nintendoh]

That is very workable. It seems to need some craft feats for absurdity.

[DarkEternal]

When I think Joker, I always think Factotum. He's absurdly smart, when he gets "inspired", he can get crazy stuff done with the barest of tools, and depending on who's writing him he's competent either as a master planner, as a physical combatant, as a user of various gadgets(use magic device, craft alchemy and so on) and so on.

[DMVerdandi]

You could do that, or you could make him a psionic artificer.

Factotum 1/Artificer 19 would be a beast.
Take able learner, and then take Leadership and Intimidation feats.
Take a couple of flaws, and done.

[ShaneMRoth]

Is this in the ballpark?

Joker, The

Medium Outsider (Native, Chaotic)

20d8+80 (170 hp)

Initiative: +4

Speed: 30 feet

AC: per equipment.

Base Attack: +20

Attack: as weapon

Full Attack: as weapon

Reach: 5’

Special Attacks: Spells, Joker Venom, Sneak Attack, Death Attack

Special Qualities: Immune to Poison; Barbarian Rage; Insanely Willful; Divine Rank 0; Virtually Unkillable;

Saves: Good Fort, Ref, and Will saves

Abilities: STR 14 (18 when Raging); DEX 19; CON 18 (22 when Raging); INT 23; WIS 8; CHA 18;

Skills: Craft(Alchemy) +40 (at least); [a bunch of other skills also…]

Feats: Skill Focus (Alchemy), [and a bunch of other feats…]


Character Classes: The Joker's classes are: Barbarian 1/Bard 5/Assassin 14

Immune to Poison (ex): The Joker uses poison like most people use maple syrup. He is immune to all poisons.

Insanely Willful (su): The Joker’s Will saves are based on his Charisma instead of his Wisdom.

Barbarian Rage (ex): the Joker can fly into a rage, per the Barbarian Class, once per day. He suffers rage fatigue once his rage has ended.

Joker Venom (ex): The Joker has his own proprietary poison recipes. [When someone figures out what the stats might be for those poisons, that is going to be awesome…]

Divine Rank (su): For reasons not fully understood by anyone, including the gods themselves, the Joker has a Divine Rank of 0, and all of the divine advantages which attach to this status.

Virtually Unkillable (su): The Joker has survived things that would have put the Tarrasque in a permanent vegetative state. He has “died” many times. While there is cosmic consensus that he can be killed, Bardic Lore is silent on what it will take to kill the Joker permanently.

[khadgar567]

well we actually have path of irons(on coming book) saboteur who if remember correctly they have the craft skills to make both poison and other joker gimmnicked gadgets so you just need to get bat sh*t loco and your done in my book

[Taelas]

I'd put him as a Rogue, around levels 12-13, with a very high focus on Craft (poison) and Intimidate. I'd give him average to slightly above average Str, high Dex, very high Con, very high Int, low Wis, and low Cha. (He is not particularly charismatic, except towards Harley Quinn.)

As a contrast, Batman would probably be level 14-15, with a very intricate build that optimizes his combat and his skills.

[Dienekes]

I'd put him as a Rogue, around levels 12-13, with a very high focus on Craft (poison) and Intimidate. I'd give him average to slightly above average Str, high Dex, very high Con, very high Int, low Wis, and low Cha. (He is not particularly charismatic, except towards Harley Quinn.)

As a contrast, Batman would probably be level 14-15, with a very intricate build that optimizes his combat and his skills.

I would disagree with the Charisma. As soon as he enters the room everyone feels exactly what he wants them to feel. Mind you, what that is, is fear. He's corrupted minds, somehow gotten hundreds of followers despite being a horrible boss, and everyone who meets him listens to what he has to say. Often even when they don't want to. That dude has charisma.

[Prime32]

Feats: Willing Deformity, Deformity (face), Deformity (madness)


You could do that, or you could make him a psionic artificer.

Factotum 1/Artificer 19 would be a beast.
Take able learner, and then take Leadership and Intimidation feats.
Take a couple of flaws, and done.Joker is not an lv20 character. There are incarnations of Superman less powerful than an lv20 character.

[Taelas]

I really don't think he's charismatic. People don't listen to him because they are fascinated by his presence, they listen to him because he frightens them near to death. Which his reputation nicely takes care of for him. Intimidate alone does all of that, combined with his instability.

He likes to think he's funny, but he really isn't. That combined with his deeply disturbing personality screams low Cha to me.

[SimonMoon6]

Not completely related:

Once upon a time, back in the days before 3e, I was running a campaign (not using D&D rules of course) that was set in a multiverse including a variety of universes (a Call of Cthulhu universe, a Moorcockian multiverse, the DC universe, a generic D&D universe, a Star Trek universe, the Dr Who universe, etc). Someone had the bright idea of taking the Joker to the D&D universe and having a spell cast to cure his insanity (there wasn't a "cure insanity" spell but some other spell (maybe Heal or Restoration) would do the trick). I had to hand-wave and say that the Joker's insanity was effectively a superpower that couldn't be so easily fixed. I wonder now if that was the right decision. Perhaps it would have been interesting to see a sane Joker, regretting all his previous actions.

[Dienekes]

I really don't think he's charismatic. People don't listen to him because they are fascinated by his presence, they listen to him because he frightens them near to death. Which his reputation nicely takes care of for him. Intimidate alone does all of that, combined with his instability.

He likes to think he's funny, but he really isn't. That combined with his deeply disturbing personality screams low Cha to me.

You kidding? One of the reasons why the Joker is such a popular character is because he actually is funny, in a horrifying dark comedy kind of way.

And Lex Luthor described him best: Frighteningly sick in the head, but strangely compelling company.

[DMVerdandi]

Feats: Willing Deformity, Deformity (face), Deformity (madness)

Joker is not an lv20 character. There are incarnations of Superman less powerful than an lv20 character.

Bollocks.
Level 20 is the end of competency. It's the tenth dan black belt.
Depending on what you are learning, you are stronger or weaker. A 20th level commoner is weak as hell compared to even a 20th level adept. And both of those are nothing compared to a 20th level codzilla or wizard, and both of those can't hold a candle to a deity with 20 outsider HD.

The joker can very well be level 20, since it just means you are really an expert at what you have learned. It is the doctorate.of what you have been doing.

Epic level is when you start to get so good, you start freeing yourself of the limits of the things you learned. You aren't even bound by the same rules and stipulations of your craft. You have mastered it, and you are now thinking outside of the box and Creating

[Extra Anchovies]

The joker is just a mid-high level rogue with the social skills maxed. Everything he does can be done through one of those skills or through Acrobatics (or the 3.5 equivalents), plus a properly timed Sneak Attack. High Int, low Wis, average Cha.

[Dienekes]

Bollocks.
Level 20 is the end of competency. It's the tenth dan black belt.
Depending on what you are learning, you are stronger or weaker. A 20th level commoner is weak as hell compared to even a 20th level adept. And both of those are nothing compared to a 20th level codzilla or wizard, and both of those can't hold a candle to a deity with 20 outsider HD.

The joker can very well be level 20, since it just means you are really an expert at what you have learned. It is the doctorate.of what you have been doing.

Epic level is when you start to get so good, you start freeing yourself of the limits of the things you learned. You aren't even bound by the same rules and stipulations of your craft. You have mastered it, and you are now thinking outside of the box and Creating

Eh, a level 20 commoner with Con 12 can theoretically survive being completely submerged in lava for a round. If he put points in jump he has surpassed the world record holder in jump checks. If he put points in swim he can never drown do to environmental dangers in the water. The dude is pretty superhuman, definitely above an expert in his field.

[Taelas]

You kidding? One of the reasons why the Joker is such a popular character is because he actually is funny, in a horrifying dark comedy kind of way.
The most common backstory for the Joker (though as he says he "prefers multiple choice" when it comes to personal history, it is not at all certain it is correct) is that he is a failed comedian.


Bollocks.
Level 20 is the end of competency. It's the tenth dan black belt.
Depending on what you are learning, you are stronger or weaker. A 20th level commoner is weak as hell compared to even a 20th level adept. And both of those are nothing compared to a 20th level codzilla or wizard, and both of those can't hold a candle to a deity with 20 outsider HD.

The joker can very well be level 20, since it just means you are really an expert at what you have learned. It is the doctorate.of what you have been doing.

Epic level is when you start to get so good, you start freeing yourself of the limits of the things you learned. You aren't even bound by the same rules and stipulations of your craft. You have mastered it, and you are now thinking outside of the box and Creating

A 20th level commoner is weak compared to another class, but compared to ordinary people living in the real world, he's basically Superman.

Above 5th level, D&D characters start to become superhuman -- they surpass even the greatest achievements of real-world humans. A 6th level Monk with the Run and Endurance feats and 18 Constitution can run for a dead sprint for 27 rounds, or 3 minutes, 42 seconds -- and in that time, he'll run a distance of 6750 feet, or just around 2 kilometers. To put that in perspective, Hicham El Geurrouj, perhaps the greatest middle distance runner of all time, holds the world record for the 2,000 m run, at 4 minutes, 44 seconds -- over a full minute longer. He also holds three other world records (1,200 meters, 1,500 meters, and the 1 mile). His time for the 1 mile, some 400 meters shorter than the monk's run? 3 minutes, 43 seconds.

The Joker is not level 20.


The joker is just a mid-high level rogue with the social skills maxed. Everything he does can be done through one of those skills or through Acrobatics (or the 3.5 equivalents), plus a properly timed Sneak Attack. High Int, low Wis, average Cha.

Average Cha could work, yeah. Just not high, as some people have suggested.

[marphod]

Bollocks.
Level 20 is the end of competency. It's the tenth dan black belt.




The system comes from Go player rankings, where the ranking system currently breaks down at 9p (9th dan, pro), which is effectively an honorary title. p1-8 are strictly based on current player capabilities, however, and extrapolating from that, around 15p or 16p a player would be capable of perfect play.

(the entire Go ranking system is insane, and varies by national ranking organization. The learning ranks are 9th Kyu (9k), a beginner (and probably my rank, as I am awful at go) through 1st kyu (1k), and are generally self-granted. The 1d (1st Dan) is the lowest level considered a competent, but amateur, player and goes up through 7d, with the special 8d meaning you won a major amateur title at some point in your career (I think). Then come the pro ranks. The difference in rank theoretically corresponds to a handicap, but it doesn't work IRL, as it isn't a linear scale by far.)


And now you know.



Depending on what you are learning, you are stronger or weaker. A 20th level commoner is weak as hell compared to even a 20th level adept. And both of those are nothing compared to a 20th level codzilla or wizard, and both of those can't hold a candle to a deity with 20 outsider HD.

The joker can very well be level 20, since it just means you are really an expert at what you have learned. It is the doctorate.of what you have been doing.


I have a different way of viewing the level system, but this is close enough.

Some of what the Joker is depends on which iteration of the Joker you are using. Are you using the one portrayed by Jack Nicholson, Heath Ledger, Mark Hamil, or Cesar Romeo (which are the 4 most notable, IMO, actors/portrayals of the Joker)? The Killing Joke Joker? Silver Age? Golden Age? One of the more recent comic portrayals? They are all different.

Romeo's would probably be pure or near pure Rogue, primary charisma, dump wisdom. Nicholson's would be primarily a bard with lots of alchemy, leadership, and social skills pegged with primary or secondary in all the mental abilities. Hamil's would start with Factorum add in a smattering of other classes, and include Uncanny Trickster and Chameleon - secondary int, with both Cha and wis as tertiary scores and primary constitution. Ledger's is probably Rogue/Ur-Priest and picked up Trickery, Charm and Time domains somehow; Primaries Wis and Int, low Cha (but not a dump stat) but lots of social skills and his domains make up for his lower charisma.

The key thing to note is that the Joker is always portrayed as the epitome of human potential within his chosen field. Not a benchmark. Not an example. The Epitome. He is not necessarily an overly optimized build (he will do something for style, whether its the most efficient or not), but no one will ever beat him at his own game. Batman only overcomes the Joker when he can manage to change the rules -- he is (currently portrayed as) the villain that Batman has defeated but never Beaten.

Batman is almost certainly lower level than the Joker. He can't challenge the Joker without changing the context of the game. He's just got a perfectly optimized build, leadership, and managed to pick up not one, but three highly optimized cohorts (well, depending on version -- Robin, Nightwing, and Batgirl. Or Ace the Celestial, Magebred, Half-Fiend Bat Hound as an animal companion. And several humunculi -- Alfred, Lucious Fox, etc.) and made an Apparatus that does not suck.

[ben-zayb]

Alfred as a homunculus? What manner of blasphemy is that? (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/131881/2865113-funny_batman_mind_blown_joker.jpg)

Alternatively, how about a Joker PC based on this (http://24.media.tumblr.com/ac43e10d2d78b67ded3fab9bdd6a5a2c/tumblr_mq3hi7Gnu11qaxlmuo4_1280.png)?

[PaucaTerrorem]

Just to clarify, where do you get Ur-Priest for ledgers joker?

[Troacctid]

The Joker doesn't traditionally have any special powers. He's just resourceful and driven. I would probably build him as a Rogue, trading sneak attack for feats since he isn't really about sneak attacking.

[Dienekes]

The most common backstory for the Joker (though as he says he "prefers multiple choice" when it comes to personal history, it is not at all certain it is correct) is that he is a failed comedian.

Yes, that's one of them. But there's also a comic where the Joker keeps an audience in laughing fits (without the use of gas) before it was revealed he was the Joker, then the laughs turned into screams real damn fast.


The Joker doesn't traditionally have any special powers. He's just resourceful and driven. I would probably build him as a Rogue, trading sneak attack for feats since he isn't really about sneak attacking.

Mmhmm, maybe. I could definitely see some of the stuff Joker has pulled as being a variation of the Feint then Sneak Attack style of sneak attack rogue, but definitely not the stealth based version.

Anyway skills that Joker definitely has (going by pre-New 52 comics, which is what I'm most familiar with):
Perform (Comedy): Should go without saying
Intimidate: Should go without saying
Bluff: Should go without saying
Balance: He's fought Bats on tightropes and while a plane is crashing before
Climb: At least a couple ranks, not a lot. He's scampered up a few cliffs in some insane schemes
Craft (Alchemy): He has a few potions, the key one being his laughing gas, but he's made it a laughing liquid, and other crazy things like putting it on a timer, being instantaneous, or being dormant in his target for days. It can either kill or force the victim into an uncontrollable state.
Diplomacy: Seems to have experience bargaining with Lex and the other Bat villains, but not a focused skill like Bluff and Intimidation are.
Disable Device: This ability seems to come and go, depending on the writer, but at minimum he can pick a lock, at maximum he can break into the Batcave and get around the various traps therein.
Disguise: Uses all the time, but always attempts to be a male human, so maybe not too many points? But then again he's tricked Batman with it, and Bats can definitely recognize the Joker on sight and has a pretty darn good Spot check to boot.
Escape Artist: The old fake hand to get out of handcuffs trick, or seeming to always get out of impossible death traps of his own design that were turned against him in a fight with Batman. Should be pretty good, maybe not maxed like Catwoman would have.
Forgery: 1 point. He's forged bills that were indistinguishable from the real kind except it had his face on it. Pretty niche use.
Gather Information: Nowhere near Batman levels, but he always seems to find random unimportant information that leads him to either a crime, or a new weapon to use against the heroes.
Heal: Not many ranks, just enough to stitch people up in disturbing ways.
Hide: The Joker stepping out of the shadows for the reveal he was there the whole time is kind of a thing he does.
Knowledge (local): He knows all the little spots in Gotham he can hide in and use to his advantage. And no one knows more about Arkham than the Joker.
Move Silently: Not as high as his Hide rank, but he's successfully sneaked up on Two-Face and more than a couple cops.
Open Lock: Constantly gets out of his cell in Arkham, when he only needed to pick a lock, or when he needs a more complex method of escape.
Profession (Comedian): Only 1 rank, for one possible past life
Profession (Career Criminal): Definitely a few more.
Ride: Well, Drive would be more accurate, but the Jokermobile is a thing, and the Joker drives it.
Sense Motive: Seems to know when people are lying to him, only seems to work on mooks and victims though so not that many ranks. Batman and the Robins can trick him.
Sleight of Hand: All the time, his signature card tricks, various magic gags, the knife up the sleeve trick, he has it.
Speak Languages: Russian, at least 1 Arabic language, and English of course, but that's his mother tongue
Spot: Not as many points as you'd expect. Bats almost always catches him off guard, but he can sometimes get lucky and catch the lesser sneakers, Catwoman a fair few times, Robin as well.
Swim: How many times has he "died" at sea. He swims out, I assume. I'd giving him a few ranks here.
Tumble: Again given for how many deaths he would have had if not for using tumble to decrease his fall. He is also a very mobile combatant
Use Rope: A couple ranks, he's tied up people he's captured before, but the Batfamily can always get out of them. Unless he beats them with a crowbar or something first.

That's a lot of skills. But notice, not all of them need to be at full.

Other abilities he definitely has:

Poison Use: Never poisons himself with his concoctions.
Evasion: His ability to survive explosions is well known
Trapfinding: Again, for getting into the Batcave unscathed
Trap Sense: Again, avoiding traps is what he does, including a few high tech ones when he broke out of the Slab
Slippery Mind: Don't try to control the Joker's mind, or read it. Terrifying things happen if you do.
Leadership: Always has a bunch of goons on hand, and Harley would be his cohort, until she broke off to do her own thing, anyway.

Abilities I could see an argument for:
Sneak Attack
Crippling Strike: He has crippled guys in a fight before, but that's more because combat in D&D is funky with the whole 1 hit point I'm good to go thing.
Point Blank Shot: He is surprisingly accurate with that big comedy gun thing he has.
Weapon Finesse: Fights fisticuffs with Bats but has little strength
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Flower, Throwing Cards, Plastic Amputee limbs, Laugh Gas Grenades, Oversized Comedy Gun, Death Buzzer, Exploding Rattling Teeth

Alchemical Concoctions:
Joker Venom: The big one, alright it can kill in about 3 seconds, or it can paralyze, all while the victim uncontrollably laughs. Or it can simply forcibly contort the victim to permanently have the creepy grin, but otherwise be ok. It can work on people, and other animals, off the top of my head, a bear, a dog, and the entire bays worth of fish. It can be a gas (most common), or a liquid, it can affect the target by either being inhaled (most common), or upon touch, or ingestion.
Animal Pheromone Control: Usually very simple directions for a house animal like a cat or dog to follow or scratch a specific individual
Explosives and Acids: He has a lot of them

Anyone think of anything else?

[Afgncaap5]

I think a cue should be taken from Eberron when concerning The Joker; his "power level" is different than his "threat level." He's got no powers (unless you count having high intelligence and a level of unpredictability that lets him be a match for Batman's training and planning capabilities and a level of madness capable of making The Martian Manhunter's mind revolt when he attempted to pacify him (and some sort of "Personal Sense of Self" that allowed him to personally be a trump card during that whole weird Tarot storyline, but that's probably weird enough to not include here)), but that doesn't stop him from knowing where all the bodies are buried and being smart enough to know just how to twist things around. He also seems to be "not quite right" in the sense that usual rules often don't apply to him (immune to poisons, plus in his earliest appearance he received a wound that should have killed him, but he just sort of... stayed alive in spite of it while the police and medics watched.)

If I wanted to put The Joker into a game, I might experiment by giving him levels in Expert (for things like Iaijutsu Focus (he's at his best when he gets the drop on people, after all), Crafting, Diplomacy, Bluffing, Disguise, UMD, etc.), and levels in Marshal (being able to add Charisma to various effects feels "right" for him, whether it's inspiring minions to fight to their deaths against superior opponents or just being enough of a showman to shrug off weird magical effects.) I'd then toss in a few custom effects for the sake of story, and make it so that he always knows exactly where the PCs' friends and family are while having access to a huge amount of supplies for crafting death traps and poisons (and the obligatory doomsday devices, of course.) I'd put him around level 8, but I'd be fine with him at any level from 5 to 20 depending on the power level of the game.

[marphod]

Just to clarify, where do you get Ur-Priest for ledgers joker?

Mostly from the stealing powers from other motif. And a pastiche of other abilities.

His ability to trick and charm others are borderline mystical, and the synchronicity required for his various plans require some knowledge and control over time.

His physical portrayal reminds me of what 'Visage of the Deity' does, even if that Visage is his own. He's got some high level enchantment abilities, to emotionally penetrate through Batman, Dent, and others. His rambling could be seen as a Commune or Augury. His 'magic trick' with the pencil screams 'harm' with a window dressing. He doesn't do anything particularly overt, just subtle uses of his power.