Buffing Bottom of the Barrel Spells (3rd-4th)

[Kryx]

I'd like to create some ideas for how to buff spells that "most" consider to be underpowered.
I would ask that every poster please refrain from debating whether a spell is underpowered or not. It can be discussed with some objective sources (like guides), but please keep the arguing to a bare minimum. I would like this thread to be about creating and sharing ideas rather than arguing. Please do discuss how a fix could be improved or changed.
If you do not believe a spell to be underpowered then maybe suggest an option that makes it just slightly more powerful. Not all of the spells listed can be buffed without making another choice bad, but they'll be listed to consider at least.

I'm going to do spells 3rd level - 5th level. Please see Cantrip-2nd (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426551-Buffing-Bottom-of-the-Barrel-Spells-(Cantrip-2nd)) for those spells.

I'm using experience for my opinion for why some spells are underpowered, but guides provide an objective opinion. These are the guides that are used: Bard (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4146291), EA's Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427508-Player-s-Gonna-Play-A-Bard-s-Guide), Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374604-The-Devout-and-the-Dead-a-guide-to-Clerics), Druid, Paladin (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4135276), Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374666-Not-All-Who-Wander-are-Lost-A-Ranger-s-Guide), Sorcerer (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4142906), Warlock (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4133456), Wizard (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4157906), Treantmonks's Wizard (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZHzEjiHvtDItZE2ixfoYwqi7brTO-ag8uBJndE5saro)

3rd

Beacon of Hope - Cleric, Paladin - "This spell is for after a fight where your party gets soundly thrashed. If you're expecting a thrashing it might be worth it, but most days you should probably choose spells that will prevent such situations in the first place."
Feign Death - Bard, EA Bard, Cleric, Wizard, Wiz - Treant - pretending to be dead is not good enough for 3rd level. Maybe lower spell level?
Flame Arrows - Ranger, Wizard, Wiz - Treant - concentration is too costly. Remove it and it should be much better.
Glyph of Warding - Bard, EA Bard, Wizard, Wiz - Treant - should likely be a ritual.
Nondetection - Bard, EA Bard, Ranger, Wizard, Wiz - Treant - extremely situational, but maybe at a fine power level. Maybe lower level spell?
Phantom Steed - Wizard, Wiz - Treant - "A spell for a horse?" Should be a lower level at minimum.
Sending - Bard, EA Bard, Cleric, Warlock, Wizard, Wiz - Treant - "1 message as a level 3 spell? This would be marginal utility at level 1."
Slow - Sorcerer, Wizard, Wiz - Treant - "6 creatures that used to get a reaction, action and bonus action every round now just get an action or bonus action. That’s pretty darned cool. Creatures with multiple attacks get only one instead, double cool. Spellcasters may have their spells delayed, triple cool. Here’s the downsides: It requires concentration. It gives a saving throw every round. Hmmm....hefty downsides. Look again at fear and hypnotic pattern"
Speak with Dead - Bard, EA Bard, Cleric - super situational, but maybe at a fine power level. Maybe lower level spell?
Speak with Plants - Bard, EA Bard, Ranger - super situational, but maybe at a fine power level. Maybe lower level spell?
Wall of Sand - Wizard, Wiz - Treant - "Fog Cloud is the superior option for this kind of spell. And it's level 1." Maybe lower spell level?
Wall of Water - Wizard, Wiz - Treant - "This spell would rate red except that you can turn it in to a moderately useful spell with some planning and teamwork. If someone else can fire a decent area cold spell through the wall, you can freeze it, turning it into an actual, if somewhat brittle wall. If you can’t set that up, then this is garbage." Maybe lower spell level?

Spells not Considered: Create Food and Water (situational), Remove Curse (situational), Tongues (situational), Water Breathing (situational), Water Walk (situational)

4th

Grasping Vine - Ranger - "Battlefield control, but not very good at it."
Hallucinatory Terrain - Bard, EA Bard, Warlock, Wizard, Wiz - Treant - "Make the terrain seem like some other kind of terrain for a day. That’s it, really"
Ice Storm - Sorcerer, Wizard, Wiz - Treant - "This is basically a blast, but it does less damage than fireball."
Leomund's Secret Chest - Wizard, Wiz - Treant - "I see it as a very expensive hiding spot for your stuff." Maybe lower spell level?
Locate Creature - Bard, EA Bard, Cleric, Ranger, Paladin, Wizard, Wiz - Treant - super situational. Maybe lower spell level?
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound - Wizard, Wiz - Treant - "Give your Alarm spell bite?" Maybe for 2nd level
Phantasmal Killer - Wizard, Wiz - Treant - "Kind of like Fear except you only affect one creature and it gets a saving throw every round and you get to cast a 4th level spell instead of a 3rd."
Vitriolic Sphere - Wizard, Wiz - Treant - "This is a lot like a fireball except the damage is spread over 2 turns. Expect 25 damage on round 1 on average, and half that on round 2 (total 37). BTW, if you cast a fireball using a 4th level slot, expect 32 damage all in one shot. This spell does level damage slightly better than fireball for higher level slots"

Spells not Considered: Blight (Damage scales better than Scorching Ray, useful vs plants), Control Water (situational), Divination (situational)


Please share your suggested fixes for these items or others that you think I have missed.

Again, please keep this a thread for discussion and actually creating things instead of arguing.

[Kryx]

IMO most of these spells can be fixed to a medium level by simply lowering the spell level. Things like Nondetection, Phantom Steed, Legend Lore, etc.

Some could use higher damage or a ritual tag.

Please post your ideas below!

[PotatoGolem]

Several of these would be fine as rituals, because rituals are great for super situational non-combat spells. In particular, I'd make the following spells rituals:

3- Phantom Steed, Speak With Dead, Speak With Plants- the "speak" spells also seem more flavorful as rituals. You're doing the whole necromantic channeling energy summoning the souls of the dead thing (or attuning yourself to the natural forces of the world or whatever), which is cool as a dramatic ritual.

4- Mordenkainen's Grumpy Dog

5- maybe Legend Lore

[Flashy]

Perhaps a duration increase would make Tree Stride more worthwhile? With a ten minute (or even hour) duration it actually gets some reasonable utility as an overland travel spell. Moving somewhere between 30 and 60 miles an hour through dense forest is a decent secondary use for a spell that seems like it's supposed to be a combat mobility thing.

[MrStabby]

Huh. i thought phantom stead was already a ritual.

[SharkForce]

bear in mind that treantmonk's guide is not a guide to being a wizard, but rather a guide to being the sort of wizard that basically arranges events so that your party wins the fights without it looking like you've been the main mover and shaker behind everything. so, for example, a spell that is really really good may not be rated as highly by him if that spell is all about visibly dominating the fight.

(btw, you got your alphabetical order mixed up).

on to specifics:

3rd level spells:

beacon of hope: not sure i agree with the assessment. it gives advantage on wisdom saving throws, and in certain fights that is really powerful, so i can't say it seems like a non-combat only spell. i think part of the problem comes from the fact that it does not itself provide any healing, and doesn't last long enough to boost your recovery from short rests. perhaps giving it some moderate built-in healing would be enough.

feign death: i got nothing. lowering spell level is still not going to change the extremely situational nature of this spell. but sure, go ahead and lower spell level.

flame arrows: no concentration is a good start. better scaling might help too. seriously, who's gonna burn a higher level slot for 2 arrows?

glyph of warding: it removes the concentration requirement on the spells it casts. it is a spell that you use to lay a trap, the trap you place can last indefinitely, and it is extremely powerful. as a ritual, you could just lay down an endless hallway full of these and lead your enemies into them one after the other. yes, it costs gold, but that stops being a concern eventually for most groups. the only buff i can recommend is to take the casting time down. 1 hour seems excessive. 10 minutes would be reasonable. 1 minute is probably too short, imo.

nondetection: hmmm... the value of this spell largely depends on whether you consider "you hide a target that you touch from divination magic" to be fluff or crunch. if it's crunch, well, see invisibility and true seeing (among other possible spells) are forms of divination magic, and ignoring those sounds *very* useful and not in need of a buff at all. if you consider the crunch to only be the last sentence of the spell, then yeah, it's a bit lackluster.

phantom steed: it's a horse with nearly double movement speed to a regular horse, and it can be cast as a ritual. still, in earlier editions, the horse could do further things at higher levels; ignore difficult terrain, walk on water, air walk without gaining altitude, and flight, eventually (at 8th, 10th, 12th, and 14th level in 2e). it also lasted longer (1 hour/level), and moved up to 4 times as fast as an unencumbered human, and had to be killed rather than just hit (and it had a pretty decent AC), and regular animals wouldn't go near it, and it had a pretty decent carrying capacity (rider + 10 lbs/caster level). it probably isn't a good idea to give all that out as a ritual, but you could consider allowing the ritual to give the base version, and a non-ritual spell cast at a higher spell slot to give some of the other features.

sending: it does also provide translation, even to animals. yeah, it's a short message, but it's kinda cool what it can do as well.

slow: he missed the upsides. it's 6 creatures of your choice (so you don't worry about hitting allies), doesn't get disrupted with damage or being shaken awake like hypnotic pattern, and doesn't make your enemies run away (and possibly escape) like fear. still, not sure why it's a wisdom save... transmutation to me suggests that it is not targeting your mind. maybe it could be buffed by making it a dex save (once you've been hit, it's harder to escape; the spell does penalize dex saves).

speak with dead: make it a ritual. anyone who can prepare it has to give up something even to be able to use it as a ritual.

speak with plants: you can talk to plants to create or remove difficult terrain at will as a free action in a 30 foot radius for the duration, and free allies from entangle at will as a free action for the duration. and since you don't need to concentrate, you can combine it with the entangle spell that you cast. how is this not a good spell?

4th level spells:

grasping vine: yeah, this one is a real stinker. made worse by taking up one of a ranger's very limited spells known that they can't prepare as needed. i would add the restrained condition to the target (strength check as an action to escape, per usual) and the vine can go after additional targets each round. maybe even include moving each restrained target 20 feet within range of the vine however you like each round. would provide some definite synergy with spells that create damaging zones, and even without them could allow you to isolate individual targets (note: i wouldn't allow something that does all that as an AoE, but as a spell that can only target one person at a time it seems it should be a lot less of a problem). i might also suggest upping the range; rangers have traditionally been able to mix and match between ranged and melee, it feels weird to have a 30 foot range spell for them to me.

ice storm: hmmm... looking at the range, i'm inclined to suggest upping the AoE. this spell has some pretty serious reach, so i could see it as a good means for hitting a formation of enemies really hard. the damage would still be kinda low, of course.

leomund's secret chest: seems fine to me. note that you can send it back and forth as often as you want until 60 days have passed, before needing to cast the spell again so you can avoid the chance of losing the spell, and then you can just cast it again; there is no need to use up spell slots while adventuring.

locate creature: seems fairly handy to me. it's a radar for a specific creature type that reaches through anything other than flowing water. i would allow it to exclude specific individuals (so that if you want to scan for humans or elves or whatever you won't detect your party members), but that's about it.

mordenkainen's faithful hound: 1 action to cast, no concentration requirement. it has natural invisibility (ie advantage on most attacks) and effectively has truesight, and can be placed inside a web or a stinking cloud no problem, or locked inside the area of a wall of force (wall of force must be casted after the hound, unfortunately) and cannot be harmed if you do so. what more do people want, for it to come equipped with a nuclear arsenal? but fine, since it apparently isn't amazing enough to throw into an area with a bunch of locked-up unfortunate enemies, give it some reach, and the option to not bark in advance (so that enemies won't know to avoid that area before you lock them into a 10 foot sphere of force with an unkillable killing machine).

phantasmal killer: it's an illusion. make it work like an illusion. int save initially, investigation(int) check as an action to remove the effect. they don't *have* to take the action, but if they want to end the spell, that's how to do it.

vitriolic sphere: honestly, damage-dealing spells being worse than fireball is pretty much a trend. has been for some time. only buff i'd bother with is having the second round damage scale by 1d4 per level as well.

wall of sand: fog cloud doesn't give 1/3 move speed (getting through the wall eats up most creatures' movement, or 3 rounds worth of movement if you can force them to walk the lengt as in a 10 foot hallway). but yeah, it could use some help. maybe just add a dex or con save to avoid being blinded for 1 round, and count it as cover for ranged attacks.

wall of water: it halves fire damage that passes through. situational, yes, but i don't see how something that can cut a red dragon's fire breath in half (before saves, and stacking with resistance) has no value. still, i agree it could use something more.

5th level spells:

cloudkill: it used to kill weak creatures that were in it (minions in 4e, low-HD creatures in 2e and 3e, not sure about before then). perhaps let it cause low-HD creatures (i believe 4 HD was the old cut-off) to be rendered unconscious? you could also have it deal massive damage to swarms. also, it should probably explicitly obscure the area it is in. lastly, you could hearken back to earlier editions and give it an effect somewhat like disintegrate; pass the save, you take very little or nothing, fail the save, you take major damage (again, one of the features of cloudkill was that it could just straight-up kill you, automatically if you were a weak creature, but you still had to make a save even if you were a powerful creature). heck, maybe even just make the damage 10d8 (or perhaps a little less, like 8d8), save for half.

creation: i actually like this spell. you only need to have seen the object, so no proficiency check is required. various poisons are vegetable matter, various others are what would be considered "stone". i suppose if it needs some help, i could suggest changing it to allow multiple objects, and letting higher level slots also last longer in addition to creating larger objects. in a level 9 slot you can use it to make an object (or with my change objects) of up to 25 feet on a side, so that might be a tad small. but seriously, you can conjure boulders to sit on top of enemies to pin them down. do you have any idea how heavy a 5 foot across boulder is? how about a 5 foot cube chunk of lead (admittedly, this requires that you have first seen such a cube of lead though... conveniently, illusionists can just make objects at higher levels). mostly though, the spell does require a lot of creativity. (another buff could be to allow, in addition to having seen the object, having the ability to craft such an object).

dream: ummm... this spell is terrifying. just very very situational. who cares about the damage, this spell can prevent targets from taking long rests. no spell recovery. no HD recovery. and they're going to get levels of exhaustion, and you can use it from anywhere to anywhere, and they still lose the time they spent trying to rest. use this to kill off annoying people that you can't be seen publicly opposing, or that you simply can't reach. the downside, of course, is that it can also be used against the players. but seriously, i would argue that if you think this spell is bad, it's probably because it has never been used against you to the greatest possible effect.

geas: replace damage with "maximum HP are lowered". that should be scary enough to make most creatures pay attention to it.

immolation: the only thing i can suggest is turning this into disintegrate lite. just give a big chunk of up-front damage if they fail, and if it kills them they're still turned to ash. also let it destroy wooden objects like disintegrate. it would still be lousy, but that's all i've got to propose.

legend lore: make the components not consumed, imo, and it should be fine. it's a guaranteed successful knowledge check, and if you made a successful knowledge check before this should give you even more information; remember, the knowledge gained need not be legendary, only the subject. there does not need to be a legend about the lich's phylactery location or description, so long as *someone* knows about it ("secret lore that has never been widely known" - emphasis mine).

mislead: arcane eye doesn't let you have two-way communication. this isn't for scouting; this is so that you can go to a meeting and not place your life at risk. but if you want a buff, allow the use of the following cantrips through it as part of the action to control it: light, mage hand, maybe friends.

modify memory: let it alter longer periods with higher level spell slots as well as reaching further back. at level 9 spell slot, require a wish spell to negate it (this should be defined as a safe use of wish, if it is unclear). honestly, seems mostly fine for what it does.

passwall: no good ideas at present. it is at least a useful effect, just probably not worth the level.

seeming: perhaps the actual reason is that disguise self is awfully low level for a no-concentration illusion spell. it is also 8 times the duration, for the record.

teleportation circle: seems fine to me. lots of places you'll want to go have major temples, guilds, or important locations nearby them. it's just a matter of knowing the sequences, which doesn't strictly require that you have been to them (they could be in a book, for example, that the local wizard guild has in its library. members might get "free" access (they pay to be members in some form or another presumably), others may be able to pay to see the sigil sequence for a specific location). this is mostly just a matter of how high magic the setting is according to the DM; as written, most major cities should have one or more circle. who knows, maybe you can combine this with the much-maligned legend lore spell to learn about teleportation circles in legendary locations that were once important but are now ruins.

tree stride: this is mostly a victim of the problem with rangers (not a prepared caster), imo. it's pretty much fine (if somewhat situational) as a druid spell. it's pretty ridiculous for kiting, though. the range on the teleport is about the same as the long range on a ranger's longbow.

edit:

(PS: grasping vine is a druid spell too)

i'd like to suggest a few other spells for consideration as well:

3rd
meld into stone - cleric, druid - really needs to be able to target (willing) others to be worth much of anything.
protection from energy - cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard - as a single-target spell, it is just not worth much. there is so much more you can do with concentration.

4th
blight - druid, warlock, wizard - terrible damage, con save, single target. decent against plants, but how useful is that really? no really, how did it escape the list?
dominate beast - druid, sorcerer - saving throws any time the target takes damage is the biggest part. it's otherwise not great (how often do you have decent CR uncontrolled beasts around to be worth giving up your action?) but at least useful when the situation comes up.

5th
insect plague - druid - bad damage, and not much else worth noting. if it was mobile (and controlled) or could target people of your choice, it might not be so bad, but as is, it's pretty lousy.

haven't reviewed EE yet, but i can take a look later.

[Kryx]

Several of these would be fine as rituals, because rituals are great for super situational non-combat spells.
Agreed most would be improved via ritual. Some I wouldn't mind seeing lower level - like Phantom steed.


Perhaps a duration increase would make Tree Stride more worthwhile? With a ten minute (or even hour) duration it actually gets some reasonable utility as an overland travel spell. Moving somewhere between 30 and 60 miles an hour through dense forest is a decent secondary use for a spell that seems like it's supposed to be a combat mobility thing.
It's only the caster though. Even if it allowed a Ranger to super travel it's just him. It would still be a red spell imo.



@SharkForce: Firstly, thanks for taking the time to write that shark. I really appreciate the time you've invested into this thread (and the last). Thanks, man!
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply - I wanted to do it thoroughly. incoming wall of quotes:


bear in mind that treantmonk's guide is not a guide to being a wizard, but rather a guide to being the sort of wizard that basically arranges events so that your party wins the fights without it looking like you've been the main mover and shaker behind everything. so, for example, a spell that is really really good may not be rated as highly by him if that spell is all about visibly dominating the fight.
Ya, I understand the target audience. However his ratings are still pretty accurate of the power of spells. I weigh it a bit less than others though.

3rd level spells:
Beacon of Hope

not sure i agree with the assessment. it gives advantage on wisdom saving throws, and in certain fights that is really powerful, so i can't say it seems like a non-combat only spell. i think part of the problem comes from the fact that it does not itself provide any healing, and doesn't last long enough to boost your recovery from short rests. perhaps giving it some moderate built-in healing would be enough.
Mass Cure wounds is 5th and heals 6 within 30 feet for 3d8+wis.
Idea: remove concentration

Feign Death

i got nothing. lowering spell level is still not going to change the extremely situational nature of this spell. but sure, go ahead and lower spell level.
Agreed, the spell is heavily situational. Even if it dropped to level 1 it would basically be an out of combat utility. No solid ideas here either.
Idea: Lower to 2nd level. Still not good.

Flame Arrows

no concentration is a good start. better scaling might help too. seriously, who's gonna burn a higher level slot for 2 arrows?
Idea: remove concentration, change default amount of arrows to 15 and add 10 arrows per higher level.

Glyph of Warding

it removes the concentration requirement on the spells it casts. it is a spell that you use to lay a trap, the trap you place can last indefinitely, and it is extremely powerful. as a ritual, you could just lay down an endless hallway full of these and lead your enemies into them one after the other. yes, it costs gold, but that stops being a concern eventually for most groups. the only buff i can recommend is to take the casting time down. 1 hour seems excessive. 10 minutes would be reasonable. 1 minute is probably too short, imo.
I actually think 1 minute would make it much more useful in real terms. You would have 1 minute a lot more commonly than 10 minutes or 1 hour. Even then it's not a great choice until you're flush with cash.
Idea: decrease casting time to 1 minute. Allow the spell to be cast without the component cost (200g) - in which case the duration would drop to 1 hour.

Nondetection

hmmm... the value of this spell largely depends on whether you consider "you hide a target that you touch from divination magic" to be fluff or crunch. if it's crunch, well, see invisibility and true seeing (among other possible spells) are forms of divination magic, and ignoring those sounds *very* useful and not in need of a buff at all. if you consider the crunch to only be the last sentence of the spell, then yeah, it's a bit lackluster.
I believe the RAI is that they cannot be scryed. That's how it has worked historically.
Idea: Change to a 2nd level spell. Allow 1 more target per higher level spell slot.

Phantom Steed

it's a horse with nearly double movement speed to a regular horse, and it can be cast as a ritual. still, in earlier editions, the horse could do further things at higher levels; ignore difficult terrain, walk on water, air walk without gaining altitude, and flight, eventually (at 8th, 10th, 12th, and 14th level in 2e). it also lasted longer (1 hour/level), and moved up to 4 times as fast as an unencumbered human, and had to be killed rather than just hit (and it had a pretty decent AC), and regular animals wouldn't go near it, and it had a pretty decent carrying capacity (rider + 10 lbs/caster level). it probably isn't a good idea to give all that out as a ritual, but you could consider allowing the ritual to give the base version, and a non-ritual spell cast at a higher spell slot to give some of the other features.
I do really like this idea. Allowing it more flavor than just being a random horse would be great! Rituals are always at base level, so no need to worry about adding a qualifier for that.
Idea: Change to a 2nd level spell. Higher Levels: For each level above 2nd you can summon an additional steed.
3rd level - The mount(s) can ride over sandy, muddy, or even swampy ground without difficulty or decrease in speed.
4th level - The mount(s) can use water walk at will (as the spell, no action required to activate this ability)
5th level - The mount(s) can use air walk at will (as the spell, no action required to activate this ability) for up to 1 round at a time, after which it falls to the ground.
6th level - The mount(s) can fly at its speed with a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to your caster level.
The spell levels are lowered by 1 from PF, but higher level spells are more valuable in this edition so it makes sense.

Sending

it does also provide translation, even to animals. yeah, it's a short message, but it's kinda cool what it can do as well.
This is actually the same as the pathfinder version and the pathfinder version is level 4 or 5. And in the Wizard guides there it is rated as a black spell - interesting. There is no difference really. I could see this reduced to a level 1 spell which would allow for more immediate twitter like conversations which could be undesirable for many campaigns. It's basically the telephone at twitter lengths. I, personally, think the utility is more in line with 2nd level spells.
Idea: Reduce to 2nd level spell.

Slow

he missed the upsides. it's 6 creatures of your choice (so you don't worry about hitting allies), doesn't get disrupted with damage or being shaken awake like hypnotic pattern, and doesn't make your enemies run away (and possibly escape) like fear. still, not sure why it's a wisdom save... transmutation to me suggests that it is not targeting your mind. maybe it could be buffed by making it a dex save (once you've been hit, it's harder to escape; the spell does penalize dex saves).
Slow has always been a will save. I find it weird too. I would use a Strength save if anything to match Ramzour's Six Ability Save System (http://community.wizards.com/forum/product-and-general-dd-discussions/threads/4107836). I think I'll do that, actually!
I think slow is undervalued. It is a pretty decent choice to hinder up to 6 of your strongest enemies. Fine as is besides str save imo.
No change

Speak with Dead

make it a ritual. anyone who can prepare it has to give up something even to be able to use it as a ritual.
I know this spell has historically been 3rd level, but the utility is not high enough to warrant that imo.
Idea: Ritual. Lower spell level to 2nd.

[B]Speak with Plants

you can talk to plants to create or remove difficult terrain at will as a free action in a 30 foot radius for the duration, and free allies from entangle at will as a free action for the duration. and since you don't need to concentrate, you can combine it with the entangle spell that you cast. how is this not a good spell?
It is highly situational. Sure you can move around difficult terrain that lasts for 10 minutes, but its usages are so uncommon. Making it a ritual would still only make it useful to talk with the plant or setup some kind of trap, but the timing would be very difficult (the enemy would have to show up between 10 minutes and 20 mins from when you start casting).
Same thing as speak with dead - it isn't worth a 3rd level spot. Even if you remove entangle you've burned a 2nd level spell slot to do so in combat. Still just decent.
Idea: Ritual. Lower spell level to 2nd.

Wall of Sand

fog cloud doesn't give 1/3 move speed (getting through the wall eats up most creatures' movement, or 3 rounds worth of movement if you can force them to walk the lengt as in a 10 foot hallway). but yeah, it could use some help. maybe just add a dex or con save to avoid being blinded for 1 round, and count it as cover for ranged attacks.
This spell is awful. Adding blinded helps a lot, but it needs to be on creation and on moving through.
Idea: A creature must make a Constitution saving throw if it starts its turn in the wall of sand or the first time on a turn that it enters the wall of sand. On a failed save, the creature is blinded for 1 minute. At the end of each of its turns, a blinded target can repeat the saving throw.

Wall of Water

it halves fire damage that passes through. situational, yes, but i don't see how something that can cut a red dragon's fire breath in half (before saves, and stacking with resistance) has no value. still, i agree it could use something more.
There really isn't much flavor to add to a wall of water. Imo it should just be a lower level spell. Though I also have a lesser wall of ice as a 3rd level spell so that devalues this.
Idea: Lower spell level to 2nd.

Suggestions:
Meld Into Stone - cleric, druid

really needs to be able to target (willing) others to be worth much of anything.
Idea: Allow it to be cast on a willing creature (instead of just yourself).

Protection From Energy - cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard

as a single-target spell, it is just not worth much. there is so much more you can do with concentration.
This is questionably "bottom of the barrel". Blue on Wiz, Black on Cleric, Purple on Sorc, orange on treant. You can't really remove concentration or it would just be cast before every dragon or known elemental damage fight. I think adding more targets is the way to slightly improve this.
Idea: Targets up to 2 creatures. At higher levels you can target one additional creature.


4th level spells:
Grasping Vine

yeah, this one is a real stinker. made worse by taking up one of a ranger's very limited spells known that they can't prepare as needed. i would add the restrained condition to the target (strength check as an action to escape, per usual) and the vine can go after additional targets each round. maybe even include moving each restrained target 20 feet within range of the vine however you like each round. would provide some definite synergy with spells that create damaging zones, and even without them could allow you to isolate individual targets (note: i wouldn't allow something that does all that as an AoE, but as a spell that can only target one person at a time it seems it should be a lot less of a problem). i might also suggest upping the range; rangers have traditionally been able to mix and match between ranged and melee, it feels weird to have a 30 foot range spell for them to me.
Agreed about Ranger - I have them follow the paladin spellcasting system of prepared.
If we compare this spell to Evard's Black Tentacles it's just plain awful. I think that is the template that should be used. It is 90 feet, does restrained, does some decent damage. I think it's perfectly flavorful and gives the ranger some decent AOE control.
Idea: Change Name to Grasping Vines and reflavor Evard's Black tentacles to be the grasping vines. Same in every other regard.

Hallucinatory Terrain
You skipped this one
Idea: Ritual. Reduce level to 3rd level.

Ice Storm

hmmm... looking at the range, i'm inclined to suggest upping the AoE. this spell has some pretty serious reach, so i could see it as a good means for hitting a formation of enemies really hard. the damage would still be kinda low, of course.
I doubt most D&D campaigns will deal with military formations. Increasing the radius would make this spell better in like 10% of circumstances imo. However there is also the rider of difficult terrain which makes an increased radius nice. Slightly upping the radius and dmg is the best choice imo.
Idea: Increase radius to 30-foot-radius. Increase bludgeoning damage by 1d8 to 3d8 (along with the 4d6 cold).

Leomund's Secret Chest

seems fine to me. note that you can send it back and forth as often as you want until 60 days have passed, before needing to cast the spell again so you can avoid the chance of losing the spell, and then you can just cast it again; there is no need to use up spell slots while adventuring.
The chest is not used up. Therefore I agree that 5,000g is fair to store something for up to 60 days.
No change

Locate Creature

seems fairly handy to me. it's a radar for a specific creature type that reaches through anything other than flowing water. i would allow it to exclude specific individuals (so that if you want to scan for humans or elves or whatever you won't detect your party members), but that's about it.
This is super situational. I think both this is and Locate Creature should be a ritual.
Idea: Ritual.

Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound

1 action to cast, no concentration requirement. it has natural invisibility (ie advantage on most attacks) and effectively has truesight, and can be placed inside a web or a stinking cloud no problem, or locked inside the area of a wall of force (wall of force must be casted after the hound, unfortunately) and cannot be harmed if you do so. what more do people want, for it to come equipped with a nuclear arsenal? but fine, since it apparently isn't amazing enough to throw into an area with a bunch of locked-up unfortunate enemies, give it some reach, and the option to not bark in advance (so that enemies won't know to avoid that area before you lock them into a 10 foot sphere of force with an unkillable killing machine).
Alarm is 1 minute, no concentration. Alarm has the benefits of true sight - it doesn't need to see, it just goes off when a creature enters. Plus Alarm is a ritual. The hound does bite, but it doesn't move. Honestly I would never cast this spell over alarm.
Summoning a magical hound is cool and the spell is useful for the purposes you stated - but none of those are the primary function which is alarm. For alarm purposes it should really be a ritual. For combat purposes it should somewhat match conjure minor elementals which gives us an Azer which does 7 damage per turn, or a Gargoyle which does 5+5 damage per turn. We could model that and have it summon a dire wolf.
Idea: Ritual. The creature summoned is a dire wolf. It still has the see invis stuff and follows the text from conjure minor elementals: "The summoned creature is friendly to you and your companions. Roll initiative for the summoned creature which has its own turns. It obeys any verbal commands that you issue to it (no action required by you). If you don't issue any commands to it, it defends itself from hostile creatures, but otherwise take no actions."

Phantasmal Killer

it's an illusion. make it work like an illusion. int save initially, investigation(int) check as an action to remove the effect. they don't *have* to take the action, but if they want to end the spell, that's how to do it.
Agreed on using Int save. All illusions should be that way - hypnotic pattern, fear, weird, etc. That follows Ramzour's Six Ability Save System (http://community.wizards.com/forum/product-and-general-dd-discussions/threads/4107836). Though illusion + messing with the mind becomes weird - should it be int or wis? Strange to handle. In the case of PK and Fear the initial can int and the secondary can be wis. That should work perfectly.
I don't agree with only allowing it to end only if the creature takes an action and passes a save. Int + seconday wis is better imo. I would however allow a creature to use investigation to try to end it.
Idea: Intelligence saving throw. They take 4d10 at the start of every turn. The phantom is created in a square that you can see within 5 feet of the target. Adjust the secondary save to match Fear: If the creature ends its turn in a location where it doesn't have line of sight to the phantom, the creature can make a Wisdom saving throw. On a successful save, the spell end for that creature. The phantom pursues the target, moving up 30 feet toward the target after the target's turn.

Vitriolic Sphere

honestly, damage-dealing spells being worse than fireball is pretty much a trend. has been for some time. only buff i'd bother with is having the second round damage scale by 1d4 per level as well.
I think this is a case of the spell being mostly fine. Adjusting the scaling would make it scale much better than a fireball. A 4th level fireball does 31.5 damage, or 16.25 on a save. A 4th level Vitrolic Sphere does 25+12.5=37.5 or 12.5 on save. Assuming a 35% chance to save a fireball does 20.475+5.6875=26.1625 average and Vitrolic Sphere does 24.375+4.375=28.75. A difference of about 2.6 damage. I don't think that's enough for having some of it delayed. If we up the secondary damage by 2d4 then Vitrolic Sphere does 27.625+4.375=32. That's worth the delay of damage imo.
Idea: Increase the secondary damage by 2d4 to 7d4.

Suggestions:
Blight - druid, warlock, wizard

terrible damage, con save, single target. decent against plants, but how useful is that really? no really, how did it escape the list?
I mentioned this one under the spells not considered. I don't agree that this is a bottom of the barrel spell: It is rated blue on the Sorcerer and Wizard, Green on Warlock.
It scales a bit worse than scorching ray, with the crossover being at 7th level. I could see making it 10d8 as it is a single target spell, but not more than that imo.
Idea: Increase damage to 10d8.

Dominate Beast - druid, sorcerer

saving throws any time the target takes damage is the biggest part. it's otherwise not great (how often do you have decent CR uncontrolled beasts around to be worth giving up your action?) but at least useful when the situation comes up.
This is rated black on Sorcerer for reference.
The whole dominate line follows the same control structure. Dominate person is blue on wizard. Dominate beast is black. I think removing the saving throw would be negative in that you could force it to run into fire to attack its allies - hurting itself and its freinds. It's rare and requires your whole action, but I think the flavor of making the target's allies hit it to break the spell is fairly decent.



(PS: grasping vine is a druid spell too)
No druid guide rates spells so I largely skipped druid spells. It's unfortunate.


I'm going to stop there for now. I spent like 5 hours on this already. I really should've split 5th off to another thread. I'm going to split them off the main OP and save your responses for that.

[Drackolus]

I'd like to make a note about flame arrows: if you allow a fire-based draconic sorcerer (it's on their list too) to add their affinity, you're talking a potential total of 12d6+60 for a 3rd slot... it's only downside is you must maintain concentration until all 12 arrows are fired, but that leads to a great amount of damage. Really only viable with an archer with multiattack, and even then we're talking 6 whole rounds of combat. Still quite situational unless you've got a ranger and they can fire all 12 within two rounds.

I think removing concentration on an (essentially) damage-over-time spell may let you stack up too much damage per round, and make big health enemies much easier than they should be. If that's the idea, fine, but something to consider. I can't think of any spell that does constant damage without requiring concentration or an action on the part of the caster. The archer would just keep happily slinging arrows like they were already planning to. A draconic sorcerer getting potentially ~104 damage on a 3rd level slot at the cost of just an action would definitely be very nice. Compare that to Scorching Ray, considered the op spell, deals ~56 damage for the same cost to the sorcerer. The attack rolls could lessen the damage, but that's true of every attack roll spell.

If the spell could affect multiple quivers and expires once 12 shots total are made, it could be a nice spell for a fight. Perhaps affect up to three or four quivers within a 30 foot radius of the caster? It would make a fun group buff, and actually give you a reason to ramp it up for more arrows, since you could actually conceivably fire that many with multiple archers.

Turning it into "elemental arrows" and being able to pick the element (à la elemental weapon) would give the advantage of being able to exploit vulnerabilities, as well as giving some variety for other draconic backgrounds. Probably way too strong coupled with the above, when four 5th level characters get to kill anything with a cr less than 15 in two rounds if they make the mistake of having a vulnerability.

I feel like if you buff it to be a reasonable spell for everyone else, draconic sorcerers could break it. 'Course, popular opinion is that they need it anyway (a sentiment I do not share, but that's for another thread.)

[Kryx]

I'd like to make a note about flame arrows: if you allow a fire-based draconic sorcerer (it's on their list too) to add their affinity, you're talking a potential total of 12d6+60 for a 3rd slot... it's only downside is you must maintain concentration until all 12 arrows are fired, but that leads to a great amount of damage. Really only viable with an archer with multiattack, and even then we're talking 6 whole rounds of combat. Still quite situational unless you've got a ranger and they can fire all 12 within two rounds.
Speaking in overall damage is not worthwhile. Hex can effectively do 360*1d6. I'd suggest we not use that metric at all.
I was unaware it was on the Sorc list as he didn't rate it, but I guess he didn't touch EE spells. Applying Stat bonus is questionable, but seems to work by RAW.
Assuming it does work it's no worse than hex + EB. Typical damage would be 1d8 + 4(cha) + 2(dex) + 1d6 fire. EB+hex easily beats this and has better damage types. Seems fine imo.


I think removing concentration on an (essentially) damage-over-time spell may let you stack up too much damage per round, and make big health enemies much easier than they should be.
You're right that removing concentration is a concern. It would allow for stacking Flame Arrows + Hunter's Mark. The problem is that Flame Arrows is basically Hunter's Mark at 2 spell levels higher. And it only works on 12 arrows whereas Hunter's Mark works for an hour (or 8)
So either we reduce Flame Arrows down to a 1st level slot to match that or we adjust the damage to be higher to make it worth the 3rd level slot.

Idea: Keep 3rd level, keep concentration. Allow infinite arrows. Swapping another quiver's arrows over to this one takes an action.

This gets rid of the bonus action swapping of Hunter's Mark/Hex. It lasts for 20 arrows before needing an action to swap, so that's 5-10 rounds (or 4 for a 20 fighter with hand crossbows).

[SharkForce]

nondetection: in 2e it blocked detect spells, which included the spell that at the time was named "detect invisibility". blocking see invisibility would match that. would still leave it as a pretty situational pick though, as not many creatures walk around with the see invisibility spell rather than just being able to see or detect invisible creatures.

speak with plants: when the situation is "there are plants", i have a hard time buying that this spell is super-situational. you can use it to negate difficult terrain, but you can *also* use it to *cause* difficult terrain. and while it is probably overpriced for immunity to entangle when your enemy is casting it, it also makes your allies immune to your own entangle so that you can entangle a bunch of people, and then have your allies walk right in and fight them. if you want a nearly impenetrable strong point to allow you to pick off all your enemies at range, you can combine this spell with your *own* entangle, stand in the middle, and any enemy that wants to melee you has to stand around in the entangle spell while you and your friends have no problems whatsoever. bonus points if you mix in plant growth so that they need to go through at 1/4 speed as well.

when you can create the situation (and the people who can cast speak with plants generally can), the situational nature is not a major drawback.

hallucinatory terrain: honestly, i don't see a problem with it. it is amazing for setting up ambushes; your party hides behind (or inside) the large boulders or trees that aren't there, you all test to see that it isn't real, and then you proceed to ambush whoever you laid your trap for, and they probably can't even tell that the arrow isn't coming from the edge of the terrain you're sitting inside, so you get probably a few rounds of confusion and firing with advantage on the enemy while they likely don't even fight back because they can't see where to shoot at. you could even include a bunch of pit traps and such if you want. i could *easily* see this turning a difficult fight into a very easy one. if you use it in a way that is hard to interact with (say, making a cliff that you're standing on top of look 10 feet taller), they may *never* be able to successfully see through your illusion. i'd say it isn't a good choice for a bard or even a warlock, but with careful planning a wizard or druid can make great use of it.

leomund's secret chest: just to be clear, you can store and retrieve as often as you want, and it's 5000 gp for indefinite use; you have to cast it again after 60 days to be safe, but since, as you agreed, the chest is not used up, the only additional cost is a spell slot during your downtime.

mordenkainen's faithful hound: yes, it's a terribly expensive alarm spell. but it's also a terribly effective way of adding damage to enemies you've already trapped in place. just because it isn't good at what it was designed to do, doesn't mean it isn't amazing at something else. personally, i consider the version you proposed to be a severe nerfing; the basic version is invincible and invisible. who cares if it can't move, i'll just make sure that my enemies can't move away before i use it. as a wizard spell, it only needs to be useful when i plan out how to use it effectively, it doesn't need to be a spell that is always useful all the time.

phantasmal killer: basically, i see this as an upgraded version of phantasmal force. that's where i'm coming from. with phantasmal force, i can blind a target (illusion of a blindfold on their head, ie causes disadvantage), and they have to make int checks as an action to even try to get out of it. for 2 spell levels, i'd like to at least get the basic amount of effectiveness, not trade that in for a smidgeon of extra damage.

blight: guess we'll have to agree to disagree. the spell is frankly awful in my opinion, but evidently others have found it to be useful.

dominate beast: if high CR beasts were common, it might be worthwhile. i mean, if you're in a campaign where the main enemy makes extensive use of trained war mammoths and giant apes and t-rexes complete with plate barding and amped-up natural weaponry, dominate beasts would be a good choice. if there are dire mammoths and mutant giant apes that still count as beasts, and your main enemy uses them a lot, this is probably even a *great* spell. if nothing else, beasts tend to have no saving throw proficiencies, so their wisdom save ranges from -1 to +2 afaict.

but how often do you really meet beasts? especially beasts that are worth a level 4 spell slot and concentration at level 7+ in a regular campaign? a spell that lets you control beasts at level 1 is great. a spell that lets you control beasts long after wolves, bears, and even sharks stop being a huge threat, not so good.

now, if it worked on monstrosities, it would probably be worth it. a lot of traditional D&D monsters are monstrosities, and they tend to come up at all level ranges in many of the campaigns i've played in. probably doesn't fit the theme quite properly for druids though (griffins and owl-bears? sure, why not. medusas, krakens, hydras, and minotaurs? eh, not so much).

[Nifft]

A few ideas...

Mystical Communication
When you cast, pick one of the following:
Speak with Dead, Speak with Plants, Sending or Tongues.

(Still quite situational, but covers a lot of different situations, and ties it together in a coherent "communication" flavor packet.)

Water Mastery
When you cast, pick one of the following:
Water Breathing, Water Walk, or Water Wall.

(Still quite situational, but covers a lot of different situations, and ties it together in a coherent "expect to see water" package.)

Leomund's Secret Chest
This is a class feature hiding in the spell list. Just make it a class feature.

[Kryx]

nondetection: in 2e it blocked detect spells, which included the spell that at the time was named "detect invisibility". blocking see invisibility would match that. would still leave it as a pretty situational pick though, as not many creatures walk around with the see invisibility spell rather than just being able to see or detect invisible creatures.
"I see your see-invis and counter it with protection from see-invis". I find this pretty problematic by design - you're basically removing see invis from the game as most everything that can cast invisibility would also cast nondetection.


speak with plants: when the situation is "there are plants", i have a hard time buying that this spell is super-situational.
Creating 30 feet of difficult terrain around yourself could be nice. The issue is it's not up to snuff for a 3rd level utility spell. Grease can great a 10 foot square of difficult terrain and potentially falling prone as a 1st level spell. Entangle can create a similar area with better effects as a 1st level spell (concentration). Hunger of Hadar can do damage, loss of sight, and difficult terrain as a 3rd level spell (concentration). Evards can do a good size with damage and restrained as a 4th (concentration). There are many more examples, but based on just these I would not place "difficult terrain in a 30 foot burst around you" as worth a 3rd level spot. The other benefits are useful - sometimes. Again, not worth a 3rd level spot imo.
As stated as part of the premise of this thread - if you don't think it's weak as is then use it as is. I'd like to create versions for those of use who think the default is weak. 3 guides rate it quite poorly so my opinion isn't unique here.


hallucinatory terrain: honestly, i don't see a problem with it. it is amazing for setting up ambushes
Agreed that it can be nice for ambushing. But it is rated quite poorly on 4/5 guides so I think it could use a small tweak. I think the ritual idea I gave earlier is too much - just reducing by 1 spell level should be enough.


leomund's secret chest: just to be clear, you can store and retrieve as often as you want, and it's 5000 gp for indefinite use; you have to cast it again after 60 days to be safe, but since, as you agreed, the chest is not used up, the only additional cost is a spell slot during your downtime.
Ya, if I didn't make it clear above I agree with all of what you're saying here - no adjustments needed.


mordenkainen's faithful hound: yes, it's a terribly expensive alarm spell. but it's also a terribly effective way of adding damage to enemies you've already trapped in place.
Hound requires you to be able to see the spot that you're creating it. If an enemy is trapped in place you can already stab/shoot them to death. If for some reason you can't attack them there are plenty of other spells like Cloud of Daggers or Cloudkill. If the niche of this spell is to kill people in contained spaces there are much better ways to do so.
Same thing as above - if you think it's fine as is then use it as is. Both Wizard guides find it to be awful so I'd like to create a version that is workable. Making it somewhat equivalent to conjure minor elementals (a blue spell) without much effort seems like a decent fix.


phantasmal killer: basically, i see this as an upgraded version of phantasmal force. that's where i'm coming from. with phantasmal force, i can blind a target (illusion of a blindfold on their head, ie causes disadvantage), and they have to make int checks as an action to even try to get out of it. for 2 spell levels, i'd like to at least get the basic amount of effectiveness, not trade that in for a smidgeon of extra damage.
I see where you're coming from now, but the base version of PK follows the template of Fear or Weird more than it does Phantasmal Force. Weird is quite awful and needs to be boosted. Fear is pretty good (Blue). These 3 spells are quite similar in how they are setup. The version I suggested above is actually really good sustainable damage if the creature doesn't run away and try to save. If it does run away and try to save then it's good CC.


blight: guess we'll have to agree to disagree. the spell is frankly awful in my opinion, but evidently others have found it to be useful.
Please provide suggestions for how you think it should work. How much damage for a single target spell to be viable? Is the 10d8 I suggested not enough? If I had to choose between 45 damage to a primary target or 28 damage to it and some of its buddies I would choose 45 fairly often - depending on the importance of the primary target and the buddies. Scorching Ray as a 4th level spell would only do 35 damage if all hit - and blight has half damage. Assuming a 65% chance to hit and a 35% chance for enemy to fail the save: Blight (10d8 version) dmg is 29.25+7.875=37.125 and Scorching Ray is 22.75. Blight destroys scorching ray here. People heavily undervalue half damage on a save.


dominate beast: if high CR beasts were common, it might be worthwhile.
So the issue with the spell isn't really the spell - it's the lack of higher level beasts. There are several spells that deal exclusively with Celestials, Fiends, etc. Those spells shouldn't be adjusted to be different in campaigns with no Celestials or Fiends. This spell follows the same paradigm set up in PF - monster type is only beasts at low level, and dominate monster exists at high level.
I expect this problem to disappear as soon as MM 2 appears or if a DM creates more beasts themselves. Otherwise I have no suggestions.
If you have any suggestions how this can be buffed in the current system then please do share it - that is the whole point of this thread after all. Debating does us no good without concrete ideas.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________



Mystical Communication
When you cast, pick one of the following:
Speak with Dead, Speak with Plants, Sending or Tongues.

(Still quite situational, but covers a lot of different situations, and ties it together in a coherent "communication" flavor packet.)
Issue 1: Not all classes have access to all. Do classes only get to use the ones they normally have access to? Feels a bit inelegant.
Issue 2: Making it 1 spell only really helps spells known classes like Bard, Sorc, Warlock. While I generally prefer those classes I don't feel like that really solves the problem. I feel that these spells all belong on the 2nd level. I'll have to think this over - it does indeed help Spells Known classes and issue 1 can work, even if it is inelegant.


Water Mastery
When you cast, pick one of the following:
Water Breathing, Water Walk, or Water Wall.

(Still quite situational, but covers a lot of different situations, and ties it together in a coherent "expect to see water" package.)
I actually think Water Wall is a good spell at 2nd level and would leave it at that.
Combining Water Breather & Water Walk as one spell is ingenious for spells known classes.


Leomund's Secret Chest
This is a class feature hiding in the spell list. Just make it a class feature.
I don't see the need. A mediocre class feature is still mediocre. It's more flavorful as a spell and class features are generally limited in number, even if this is just a ribbon. Plus another class could get access to it in the future.

[PoeticDwarf]

Wall of water is OK, sending is super usefull and grasping vine is for an archer without crosbow expert really nice to have.

[SharkForce]

the difference between mordenkainen's hound and cloud of daggers or cloudkill is that mordenkainen's hound does not require concentration.

as the only caster in a party, you can combine web and the hound. you cannot combine web and cloudkill. this difference is crucial. against an enemy that you have locked into place (probably with a concentration spell), the hound is added damage. against an enemy that you have locked into place (probably with a concentration spell), cloudkill is a bit of damage followed by sweet, sweet freedom.

see the difference?


as far as speak with plants is concerned, it's not a 30 foot radius of difficult terrain. it's the ability to generate a 30 foot radius of selectively difficult terrain for 10 minutes, at-will, as a free action. and also immunity to entangle (your own or your enemies) for the duration.

grease is better for making a single location hard to fight in. speak with plants lets you create difficult terrain through which your enemies must move (probably requiring them to dash to reach you), while your party gets to act, and then move away through normal terrain... which you then turn into difficult terrain. as a non-action. over and over and over. it is super-efficient terrain control, combined with party-wide immunity to entangle (which you can probably cast, and again since this spell does not require concentration it is a combo available from a single party member who can even cast speak with plants well before the fight starts).


on phantasmal killer, it isn't following the fear template. fear hits an AoE and dictates their action and deals no damage. PK hits a single target, only causes the frightened status, and does deal damage. neither is it following weird, rather, this is the base version, weird is copying this. if i want frightened with a save ends, i can do it better with fear, since that straight-up prevents them from using actions other than to run away, and it works in an area, and they don't get a save until they're out of my sight. if i want to reduce a single target's effectiveness and deal a bit of damage, i can do it better with phantasmal force because it doesn't grant a free save every single round to escape (and honestly, the damage isn't enough to kill anything fast, so i'm probably looking more for the control to keep an enemy from killing us than i am for the damage to kill the enemy), even when compared to your improved phantasmal killer, phantasmal force is a better spell in a lower level slot as far as making their life difficult is concerned. after all, it's pretty unlikely for a target to escape from phantasmal force (and depending on DM interpretation, you might be able to render them completely ineffective, for example if your DM rules that they will react to being "in a pit" by attempting to climb walls that don't exist and, naturally, failing at it, which they will justify as slipping).

[asorel]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but RhaegarT's Sorcerer guide has been updated with the Elemental Evil spells. He's posted them to Google Drive document, but has not edited the main forum post, citing formatting difficulties.

[Nifft]

Issue 1: Not all classes have access to all. Do classes only get to use the ones they normally have access to? Feels a bit inelegant.
Issue 2: Making it 1 spell only really helps spells known classes like Bard, Sorc, Warlock. While I generally prefer those classes I don't feel like that really solves the problem. I feel that these spells all belong on the 2nd level. I'll have to think this over - it does indeed help Spells Known classes and issue 1 can work, even if it is inelegant. IMHO it's a valid improvement for even daily-prep casters, since daily-prep means you have to guess what you'll need today, and more functionality per prep-slot is still useful.

In terms of power, yeah, it could be a level 2 slot -- but in terms of magical plot-destruction, it's pretty clearly in the 5th level tier of power.

Maybe make it "Concentration, up to 1 hour" and allow the caster to switch between the different uses with a single casting? That makes it a great chase-scene spell, since you'll be able to question very different sorts of people. There'd need to be a limit on uses of Sending though.


I actually think Water Wall is a good spell at 2nd level and would leave it at that.
Combining Water Breather & Water Walk as one spell is ingenious for spells known classes. I'd move Wall of Sand to 2nd level, and buff it up a bit, so that fills the niche which an L2 Wall of Water would fill.

Wall of Water remains more situational, but gets folded into a general water utility spell.


I don't see the need. A mediocre class feature is still mediocre. It's more flavorful as a spell and class features are generally limited in number, even if this is just a ribbon. Plus another class could get access to it in the future. In that case, you think the spell is fine as-is.

(Also, Bards can get it now. It's just that doing so is a very poor use of their class feature.)

[Kryx]

Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound: Both wizard guides consider this to not be a good spell. I see how it could be similar to cloud of daggers, but the spell per standard is not highly regarded.
I won't argue the issue further as that's not the point of this thread. I have no further ideas.

Speak with Plants: Same deal as above. The 3 guides rate it rather poorly.
I, personally, would split the utility out and combine that with speak with animals. Change the difficult terrain part to a 2nd level spell - keep everything else the same.

Phantasmal Killer: I don't believe that the base structure of the spell is broken. Int + Wis works great. Phantasmal Force has always worked differently from PK in the past - I don't see a reason to combine them now. The issue is the CC isn't hard enough or the damage isn't high enough - likely the later. The version I suggested allow for more damage or harder CC if the creature doesn't want the damage.
If you want to build your Int save + Int check version I'll include it in the OP.


IMHO it's a valid improvement for even daily-prep casters, since daily-prep means you have to guess what you'll need today, and more functionality per prep-slot is still useful.

In terms of power, yeah, it could be a level 2 slot -- but in terms of magical plot-destruction, it's pretty clearly in the 5th level tier of power.

Maybe make it "Concentration, up to 1 hour" and allow the caster to switch between the different uses with a single casting? That makes it a great chase-scene spell, since you'll be able to question very different sorts of people. There'd need to be a limit on uses of Sending though.
If you're going to do all 4 it should stay as a 3rd level and each individual cast is a different utility. I'm still not sure about this - it's quite a radical change. It could work out nicely.



I'd move Wall of Sand to 2nd level, and buff it up a bit, so that fills the niche which an L2 Wall of Water would fill.

Wall of Water remains more situational, but gets folded into a general water utility spell.
Wall of sand is actually a decent spell with the blinded stuff I added. The problem is wall of water has no utility - nothing to add. I don't see it fitting with the other utility spells either. It works better as a 2nd level minor wall imo.

[Nifft]

If you're going to do all 4 it should stay as a 3rd level and each individual cast is a different utility. I'm still not sure about this - it's quite a radical change. It could work out nicely. It is quite radical.

I do feel like these spell effects should stay at character level 5+, simply because they derail a whole lot of investigation plots. Level 5 is when the tier changes and such plot-shattering is supposed to become the default.

So, I'd like to balance the low power and situational benefits around the power to break plots when those situations are relevant.


Wall of sand is actually a decent spell with the blinded stuff I added. The problem is wall of water has no utility - nothing to add. I don't see it fitting with the other utility spells either. It works better as a 2nd level minor wall imo. I think you're correct in terms of power.

However, IMHO the benefits of even a combined walk on water and water breathing spell are a bit low... I'd like some 3rd option in there, preferably one which is generally useful in combat.

Maybe something like...

Will of the Water Weird - a 15 ft. long tentacle rises from a nearby water surface and smacks your foe. Make a spell attack roll for X damage against a foe within 15 ft. of a surface of water.

[rhouck]

mordenkainen's faithful hound: yes, it's a terribly expensive alarm spell. but it's also a terribly effective way of adding damage to enemies you've already trapped in place. just because it isn't good at what it was designed to do, doesn't mean it isn't amazing at something else. personally, i consider the version you proposed to be a severe nerfing; the basic version is invincible and invisible. who cares if it can't move, i'll just make sure that my enemies can't move away before i use it. as a wizard spell, it only needs to be useful when i plan out how to use it effectively, it doesn't need to be a spell that is always useful all the time.

When the wizard in our group picked this as his one 4th level spell when he hit level 7, my eye twitched (but I suppressed my inner munchkin and stayed silent). I know he was just treating it as an upgraded alarm (and since you get the slot back when long resting, it's not that bad to cast).

But your post does give me some ideas on how I can help the spell useful for him in other (i.e., combat) situations, using grapples and shoves. I still don't think it's the best 4th level spell, but I'm intrigued to try and get some mileage out of it. :smallsmile: