Fortifying a Government Building

[Marcelinari]

I'm tempted to ask everyone how you would defend a government building (a City Hall) from intrusion and theft on a day-to-day basis, in a lower-magic setting. However, everyone on these boards has access to books of magic, monsters, and items... and you tend to go a little nuts with the defenses. This is always very impressive, but it's impractical on a government budget.

A better question, then, is... how would a government (advanced imperial style) fortify a government building in a medium-sized town that they have controlled for decades, which houses not only bureaucracy but also several potentially dangerous magical items? They probably have access to any category of resources (divine and arcane, magic and mundane), but they don't really have the budget for the high level stuff, and they only expect to be able to prevent intrusions from maybe 3rd-4th level characters (more than most of the population). How would they house the valuables? How would they remain accessible to the public at the same time?

Any help with these ponderings would be appreciated.

[Sigreid]

I'm tempted to ask everyone how you would defend a government building (a City Hall) from intrusion and theft on a day-to-day basis, in a lower-magic setting. However, everyone on these boards has access to books of magic, monsters, and items... and you tend to go a little nuts with the defenses. This is always very impressive, but it's impractical on a government budget.

A better question, then, is... how would a government (advanced imperial style) fortify a government building in a medium-sized town that they have controlled for decades, which houses not only bureaucracy but also several potentially dangerous magical items? They probably have access to any category of resources (divine and arcane, magic and mundane), but they don't really have the budget for the high level stuff, and they only expect to be able to prevent intrusions from maybe 3rd-4th level characters (more than most of the population). How would they house the valuables? How would they remain accessible to the public at the same time?

Any help with these ponderings would be appreciated.

In all honesty? Probably not really all that much. A few guards on duty based on the size. The most sensitive stuff would be in rooms with thick masonry walls, heavy iron doors and some of the better locks DC 20-25. If the government has reason to believe that there is a current active plot against the building then they would add more guards. It is possible that some of the guards would be k-9 units for the added perception. I base this on what we really do for our secure military installations. Really, it's not worth the expense of more unless either you know there is an active mission against it, or what's in there is so dangerous that it could be kingdom ending if it gets out.

[ekestrel]

What Sigreid said. Plus, it would be safe to assume that the empire hires adventurers/thieves/mages levels above the average adventurer on a roving basis. If they hear about a plot, deploy a rapid response team to secure the property while getting the local guardsmen and police to crack down on the populace. Depending on the tyranny of the regime, this might also involve a legion or two of troops to sweep through the typical areas of unrest and arrest/harass/imprison/execute troublemakers.

Also, your question is somewhat contradictory to me. If these are world-ending items (and the empire knows them to be such), why are they only in a medium-size town with this level of defense? Likewise, why would they be on display to the public?

It seems like if the objects are sacred (or something), they'd only be brought out on feast days under guard. Otherwise, maybe the population reveres them as relics of a god and therefore would be outraged at anyone trying to steal them. The Liberty Bell comes to mind (here in the USA); if you went to Philly and started asking about the security around the Bell and acted like you were interested in stealing it, I think most of people in Pennsylvania would call the cops very quickly.

[Gurka]

Also, your question is somewhat contradictory to me. If these are world-ending items (and the empire knows them to be such), why are they only in a medium-size town with this level of defense? Likewise, why would they be on display to the public?

The OP mentioned "potentially dangerous magical items", not world-ending items that are known to be such. That's the difference between how one guards the launch codes for the American Nuclear Arsenal, and how Cabela's Sporting Goods guards their gun counter. No mention was made of them being on display either.

That aside, Sigreid had about the right of it.

Definitely throw in some dogs trained to sniff out common spell material components.

Make sure the building was constructed of multi-layer walls. Masonry exterior, 1/8" (or so) iron or steel plating, with wood paneling on the inside. This makes it harder to get in with a simple shape stone (or similar) spell, and while it's an expensive way to construct a building, it's not radically so, and it's a one-time-expense which a government wouldn't have any trouble footing.

Good quality locks are a big help, but in addition to those locks, make sure access to secure areas are guarded by actual people (which are not terribly expensive) who operate a barricade bar on the interior of secure doors. That means that it's impossible to pick your way through conventionally, or via Knock. The door may only be unsecured from the inside, by the guard, or physically battered down. Make sure guards operate in pairs and on rotating shifts so they don't work with the same guy every single day. This has been proven to keep paid-security as well as military security more alert and less prone to slack off. So, you have a secure room under lock and key, and to access that room you must be let in, through a secure antechamber (or barbican) under guard. That's after you make it past the entry security and dogs.

Make sure you have security working the facility through the night, and not just one lone guard either. Staff may be scaled back at night, but not a skeleton crew. This is added expense, but not extravagant expense, particularly with what a city guard is paid.

You could try and ward the place up with spells, but rather than go to that expense, I would simply have a regular divination cast on the place to (hopefully) find out if anybody is plotting to crack it. Maybe a basic alarm spell each day for certain areas.

Edit: I changed it to Cabela's because I got auto filtered on a different four-letter sporting goods store.

[Coidzor]

Well, it's an important civic building, so unless someone specifically cut corners or built a flaw into it, it should be fairly solidly constructed and have a good foundation, so it should have a good solid basis, and would be built with a minimum of entrances, or at least with entrances that funnel towards potential chokepoints for defenders without being super obvious during day to day operations.

It would ideally be made of fire resistant materials with flammable contents a reasonable distance away from any windows or entrances to limit the potential for fire damage.

If there's items that need to be secure that aren't accessed on a daily basis, then presumably there'd be a subterranean bunker component set into the foundations, which, aside from the side which is inside the building, is surrounded by alternating layers of sand, stone, dirt, wood, and probably some form of mixed refuse in order to block the more common forms of burrowing/earth gliding. If not one or two types of metals for additional proofing.

I'd then say some combination of a vault door and posted guards would account for it, with more guards brought in during routine checks and when adding to or taking something from the vault.

[Daishain]

High security rooms could have lead sheeting in the walls and a permanent forbiddance without much undo effort, which deals with the more subversive magical options for entry. Slap a minor magic item on the outer entry that detect things like extradimensional pockets, and physical security is all should be left (assuming nothing in there is worth a high resource raid)

[Marcelinari]

This all sounds great. Dogs for detection, guards for security, and layered walls/good locks for passive defense. The lead sheeting in more sensitive areas is a good idea too (provided the lead is still an anti-divination measure? I assume, but all the rules have changed). A permanent forbiddance effect seems extravagant, at 1000gp a day for 30 days. And an 11th level spellcaster to boot.

The potentially dangerous items are in a subterranean vault, yes. Is it possible to rig up a time-lock vault with late renaissance tech? Although that might be too much of a challenge for non-Shadowrun-minded players. The most dangerous item in the vault is an Orb of Earthquake, one Earthquake per long rest. The rest of it is tbd (and not entirely relevant).

Now I just have to find a group to break in, watch how they screw up, and then present that break-in as an adventure hook to my actual party later this year. There's... probably an easier way to do that.

EDIT: It looks like the only divinations stopped by lead are all of the Detect Something spells, and Locate Object. Importantly, it protects against neither Scrying nor Clairvoyance. Government construction might go with 2 inches of iron instead, in order to protect against stone shape at the same time.

[Daishain]

A permanent forbiddance effect seems extravagant, at 1000gp a day for 30 days. And an 11th level spellcaster to boot.

AFB at the moment, but if I recall correctly, the expensive portion of the material components are not consumed in this case. So most likely, this would require hiring or otherwise soliciting the services of an 11th level spellcaster who probably already has the needed materials on hand for a total of five hours of his time (though he will have to stick around for a month, which hurts the deal if he can't do his own work locally.) Not all that much of a pain for a governmental body.

[Gurka]

Is it possible to rig up a time-lock vault with late renaissance tech?

The earliest actual time-lock was developed in the 1850's. It was clockwork, however, which means that it was entirely possible, technologically speaking, to create one during the renaissance. In a land with Gnomes and their legendary tinkering, I'd say it's not too far a stretch.

[Sigreid]

A time lock could be relatively easily rigged by using a water clock setup. The lock is completely contained and as water drains (or fills) from a chamber it applies pressure to the levers in sequence causing them to trigger. I've never heard of this, but if you look up what the ancient world did with water clocks, this should be child's play by comparison. Our ancestors understood far more than people realize.

As far as forbiddance, the earthquake orb you described isn't powerful enough to go over the top, in my opinion. I personally wouldn't even bother with forbiddance unless there is a trusted government wizard already on the payroll that could do it. And it doesn't really make sense to me that the wizard would be on the payroll. In a low magic campaign where there aren't a lot of class levels floating around an 11th level character, especially a caster, can't safely be compelled to do anything. And the price of compelling them is likely much higher than any benefit you could get. Heck, most of the town guards wouldn't be willing to get within sword reach of an angry 11th level fighter even if they have him outnumbered.

[hewhosaysfish]

Does it actually make that much sense to try to secure things in an underground vault?

Maybe it's just one of the conventions of Dungeons and Dragons that people have to have reasons to built dungeons but it seems to me that there are too many creatures/spells that could burrow into one? Wouldn't it be better to put the vault at the top of a short tower?

Yes, there are lots of ways to fly too, but a burrowing creature could get right up the the walls of your vault without getting spotted while a flying creature would be readuly visible. Unless of course they were invisible but that could be countered by sniffer dogs on a balcony to sound the alarm or (a more fantastical option) a roost of trained attack bats on the roof. Laterns of revealing around the outside of the tower would be better but are more of a high-magic solution.

Alternatively, put the vault in the centre of a large building so that anyone smashing through either the floor or the ceiling will have to go through another room first.

[1Forge]

If they are smart enough they would set a trap for the thieves, they'd let them in and then surround them with guards/low level mages. I'm afb but I'm fairly sure there is a low level warding spell they could use, or perhaps low level binding spells to hold them in place while guards try to tie them up/ kill them.

[Marcelinari]

Thing is, they're not expecting a specific burglary. Plus, they probably manage to deter 10 times as many thefts as they actually have to counter. Any plan that relies on the government-types knowing what's going to happen will have to detail how they know that, too.

[SharkForce]

to protect against burrowing, i'd put the building in a contained pond or pool (you can have decorative fountains or something to keep it from getting stagnant and being an eyesore) and supported on a bunch of pillars.

i would also add a few guards into the mix that have ritual casting. find familiar (i recommend they choose a bat to help patrol for invisible enemies) and alarm are two very useful rituals in security work, and you could even have them use detect magic on occasion.

if you want to go the extra mile, a ritual caster capable of 3rd level (wizard) spells could require traversing a water-filled tunnel (water breathing), and could have the final location protected by a leomund's tiny hut (a rules clarification says it is indeed supposed to be indestructible, so anyone who doesn't have at least dispel magic isn't getting in).

but yeah, most of the basic measures have been mentioned (i might go higher than 2 guards at a time for key areas as well, but never less than 2).

[1Forge]

Well if it's small enough and not overly important, they could make a false safe in the celler or something and hide the real one in a cottage a mile or so out of town. In the cottage it would be behind a false dresser in a safe.

[Sigreid]

Thing is, they're not expecting a specific burglary. Plus, they probably manage to deter 10 times as many thefts as they actually have to counter. Any plan that relies on the government-types knowing what's going to happen will have to detail how they know that, too.

Sounds like it really should be just locked doors, a few guards and some dogs. Anything more would be a waste of money. Though they would likely be on high alert for a month or two after the NPC crew tries to knock the place over.

[Arzanyos]

Sigreid's got the best idea here. I'd also suggest splitting up some of the items, so they can't all be stolen with one breach, and just have a local garrison nearby. Pretty good security, and you can call in some troops if it's not enough.

[MrZJunior]

For high security areas you could add one of those airlock type security doors. The outer door woln't open if the inner door is open and vice versa. It limits the number of people who can enter, and exit, at a time.

[Marcelinari]

Currently the setup I have is - 8 (halfling) Guards with 8 Mastiffs guarding and patrolling the outside. In the guardrooms on the inside, 2 groups of backup, consisting each of 8 Guards and 1 Knight (again, all halflings).

On the vault proper, there is a large cage before it, in which an Acolyte with Ritual Casting (Alarm and Unseen Servant) stays, casts Alarm on the vault door every 8 hours or so, and otherwise reads books. He gets switched out every 24 hours (there's a bed in there). Inside the vault, the most expensive or dangerous objects sit on a Glyph of Warding filled with a Stinking Cloud. Those get replaced when expended by mages they call in from the capitol.

Sound about right?

[MrStabby]

Well the obvious thing is that the items are not there at all. In a low magic setting with scrying limited just pretend the items are there and the owner just keeps them in a hidden place. There are more hidden holes and hidey places in the world than there are combinations on a feasible combination lock.

In that case I would keep the guards - guards are people and they get to talk about what they are guarding making it common knowledge that the items are there. Change them regularly (ostensibly so no one knows who to bribe) so that there are more guards who can talk about guarding these dangerous items.

If you want something fancier then submerge them all in a big tank of acid. Once you consider raiders that don't need to breath, are immune/resistant to acid, and can teleport in or out of the tank you have pretty much narrowed down who you would need to chase to get these back (also possibly ruled out anything of a CR low enough to get a massive benefit from the items).

[Sigreid]

Currently the setup I have is - 8 (halfling) Guards with 8 Mastiffs guarding and patrolling the outside. In the guardrooms on the inside, 2 groups of backup, consisting each of 8 Guards and 1 Knight (again, all halflings).

On the vault proper, there is a large cage before it, in which an Acolyte with Ritual Casting (Alarm and Unseen Servant) stays, casts Alarm on the vault door every 8 hours or so, and otherwise reads books. He gets switched out every 24 hours (there's a bed in there). Inside the vault, the most expensive or dangerous objects sit on a Glyph of Warding filled with a Stinking Cloud. Those get replaced when expended by mages they call in from the capitol.

Sound about right?

Sounds fine. One thing to keep in mind is that people can't stay on high alert for very long without becoming complacent if a threat does not materialize.

[Marcelinari]

The problem with putting the goods in another place is putting all your eggs in one basket. If the actual location of the items is discovered, you have no defenses in place to protect it. If you put enough defenses there to protect it, then the location becomes less secure, and you're paying double for security (one on the town hall, one on the items). All told, it's risky.

[Shining Wrath]

The good stuff is in a room with lead-lined walls, floor, and ceiling - no scrying.
There's one door, solid iron, best lock they can afford, and the entry room is also lead-lined.
Heavy masonry walls.
Many cheap guards with leather and spears; even a town can afford a couple dozen at 2 SP per day.
The foundations are deep and there's a basement, which always has a few guards in it - tunnels are now difficult.
There are superior guards with crossbows in towers with complete coverage of the roof and the sides of the building. only two towers required for a rectangular building. Two guards per tower.
Many lanterns at night, with backups ready in case one goes out mysteriously. No one gets within 50' of the building without being seen - if they can be seen.

[Coidzor]

The problem with putting the goods in another place is putting all your eggs in one basket. If the actual location of the items is discovered, you have no defenses in place to protect it. If you put enough defenses there to protect it, then the location becomes less secure, and you're paying double for security (one on the town hall, one on the items). All told, it's risky.

Is this place in that much of an unstable region that City Hall is a regular target instead of a fallback bastion during defense of the town if there's no other fortifications?


Sounds fine. One thing to keep in mind is that people can't stay on high alert for very long without becoming complacent if a threat does not materialize.

Also since it's the city hall and people regularly come to and fro on perfectly legitimate business, it's hard to keep a good watch up without either having it degraded by normal business or interfering with the business of government.

[HoarsHalberd]

The potentially dangerous items are in a subterranean vault, yes. Is it possible to rig up a time-lock vault with late renaissance tech? Although that might be too much of a challenge for non-Shadowrun-minded players. The most dangerous item in the vault is an Orb of Earthquake, one Earthquake per long rest. The rest of it is tbd (and not entirely relevant).


It is very easy to rig up a time-lock vault with bronze age tech where man power is cheap. Hire a few men to stand inside during the night, with a water clock/hourglass set to run dry at the time you want it to open. Then have them open it when it runs dry. If you're concerned about them getting into the items without your permission, just have a second wall put in and have the door to that key controlled.

[Gurka]

It is very easy to rig up a time-lock vault with bronze age tech where man power is cheap. Hire a few men to stand inside during the night, with a water clock/hourglass set to run dry at the time you want it to open. Then have them open it when it runs dry. If you're concerned about them getting into the items without your permission, just have a second wall put in and have the door to that key controlled.

The point of a time lock was so that it's an inanimate object which may not be coerced. If there's one or more men working inside, actually operating the door, even if they're under instructions to only open it when the hourglass runs out, they may still be intimidated, threatened, bribed, or tricked into doing otherwise. An actual timelock, be it clockwork or a water clock, is vulnerable to none of those things, and thus is more secure.

[HoarsHalberd]

The point of a time lock was so that it's an inanimate object which may not be coerced. If there's one or more men working inside, actually operating the door, even if they're under instructions to only open it when the hourglass runs out, they may still be intimidated, threatened, bribed, or tricked into doing otherwise. An actual timelock, be it clockwork or a water clock, is vulnerable to none of those things, and thus is more secure.

Yes, which works brilliantly in modern times with automated alarms and sensors. And it isn't immune to coercion. Someone has to set it and maintain it, and that person is one man and can be coerced more easily than a small group. And if an interested party has the resources to bribe, cajole or trick a group of people it has the resources to make the person responsible for setting the time lock each day and maintaining it sabotage it. Another advantage to having a group of people action as a pseudo time lock is that if a party doesn't have the resources to cajole either a timelock operator or a group of men, they'll go through the walls/door by force, during which time people inside would be able to raise the alarm.

[Mellack]

An automated time lock would not necessarily require someone to set it daily. I can imagine a simple set up that would be automatic. Set up a barrel on a pivot and have it fill up from a dripper from the building cistern, taking 24 hours to fill. Attach a float that locks the building when in the lower half of the barrel. The door can be opened when it rises to the top half. When full the barrel overbalances and tips over to empty, then rights itself. This would make the lock only openable for a certain number of hours each day, and be almost completely automatic. It would require a small amount of maintenance, but probably only every few months. I find this an interesting thought experiment.

There would definitely still be a need for guards, but I think a combination of mechanical and personnel would be the best defense.

[GiantOctopodes]

I'm just going to throw out there that the best defense against both low and high level would be thieves and plunderers is secrecy and misdirection. If I were running the show there, there would absolutely be as much of that as I could afford, but the potentially dangerous magic items would not be in there, just cheap knockoffs with some sort of permanent Nystul's magic aura on them, with the pomp and circumstance designed to convince any who inquire that the objects are there.

In reality, since a sheet of lead will block locate object, it would be in an entirely separate location known only to 2 people, which is designed to simply be outright inaccessible. Offhand, I'd say something like inside a lead box that's been welded shut (or equivalent) which is filled entirely with Alchemist's fire, so that attempting to open the container results in massive damage to the fool who has done so, and the destruction of the magic items. The box is under the floor under the heaviest piece of furniture in the place (some massive dresser in his bedroom or something) where it was layered into the foundation of the building itself (all worked stone) and where many feet of worked stone were built on top of it.

Short of someone who knows exactly where it is already possessing Earth Elementals to burrow below, the Disintegrate spell or similar magic to destroy the stone which encases the box, and a vacuum in which to crack the box open, that should keep it from falling into the wrong hands, and it requires minimal cost, really the only thing you need is two people who can keep secret the fact that they even know a secret.

Edit: Of course, that's assuming the items don't need to be readily accessible. Do they need to be able to be retrieved for any particular reason?

[Marcelinari]

Is this place in that much of an unstable region that City Hall is a regular target instead of a fallback bastion during defense of the town if there's no other fortifications?

No, but I'm not sure it's necessary for the region to be unstable for the City Hall to be a target of interest. Even if there were no items within, there would still be important documents and such related to imperial orders, as well as more mundane local affairs that it might be beneficial for someone to interfere in. Plus, if you don't defend the location where everyone says the potentially dangerous items are, then anyone interested in taking it is gonna start looking elsewhere.



Edit: Of course, that's assuming the items don't need to be readily accessible. Do they need to be able to be retrieved for any particular reason?

Hmm. The trick is, this item isn't Sealed Evil in a Can level dangerous - it's entirely conceivable that it could be useful in certain situations, and the government wants to have access to it if those situations crop up.

However, it's a little strange that they would keep it in a mid-sized town, I'll grant that. What with it being basically a siege weapon. I think I'll explain that by saying this is a recently recovered item, and that they're storing it in the vault until it can be safely transported to a military vault in the capitol (which probably has some of the more extravagant defensive measures on it). They probably increased the security a bit because of it, too.

EDIT: This also helps me with what else should be in the vault, too - low level items useful in the town's defense. The empire has made its share of dissidents by conquering neighbouring nations (and who knew elves would hold a grudge for 200 years! jeez) so they'll want to protect against subterfuge, but also against goblin/orc raids and similar menaces.

[Daishain]

Edit: Of course, that's assuming the items don't need to be readily accessible. Do they need to be able to be retrieved for any particular reason?
If there isn't a reason to keep it around, why not destroy it?

I imagine this kind of thing being needed for, say, a weather control device. Bring about bountiful harvests used one way, or destroy entire towns with a mile wide tornado used another.

[Marcelinari]

If there isn't a reason to keep it around, why not destroy it?

I imagine this kind of thing being needed for, say, a weather control device. Bring about bountiful harvests used one way, or destroy entire towns with a mile wide tornado used another.

Amusingly, this orb is part of a set of 3: One of Earthquake, one of Tsunami, and one of Control Weather. The PCs will have been tasked with retrieving the Control Weather orb for their benefactor under the impression that he'll use it to ensure good harvests for his village.

They should find out he was lying shortly after discovering that he hired another group to steal the Earthquake orb which was coincidentally recently discovered by the local government.