Speculation: Reflections of beyond the material?

[Xuldarinar]

Given the Shadow Plane stands as a twisted reflection of the material situated around the Negative Energy Plane, I've been left to wonder if this reflection extends beyond. So, a point for speculation, at least until there is an official confirmation or denial of such a thing, is there Negative Energy Shaped reflection of the planes beyond the Material Plane, and if so what do you suppose they are like?


I put this here because.. well, nothing yet on the other forum I put this up on. If you want to check it out, have a look. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2shfu?Reflections-beyond-the-material)

[Milo v3]

I doubt they're would be a reflection of non-material/positive planes. I think the closest their might be would be some sort of distorted reflection of the ethereal or astral planes. Since they're only one step removed from the material/shadow.

[Xuldarinar]

I doubt they're would be a reflection of non-material/positive planes. I think the closest their might be would be some sort of distorted reflection of the ethereal or astral planes. Since they're only one step removed from the material/shadow.


Well... actually I kind of doubt those examples, at least for the reasoning you give for them.


The etherial plane acts as a buffer between the material plane and the shadow plane, so I do not think there would be a plane that is a distinct reflection of this place.

The astral plane, there very well might be a negative of, but it isn't one step removed. It is the innermost plane of the Outer sphere, just beyond the four elemental planes. If we have a reflection of the Astral plane, we also have a reflection of the Plane of Air, Plane of Water, Plane of Earth, and Plane of Fire. Not notions I am opposed to, and I'd love to speculate, but they are in the way.

[Milo v3]

Well... actually I kind of doubt those examples, at least for the reasoning you give for them.


The etherial plane acts as a buffer between the material plane and the shadow plane, so I do not think there would be a plane that is a distinct reflection of this place.

The astral plane, there very well might be a negative of, but it isn't one step removed. It is the innermost plane of the Outer sphere, just beyond the four elemental planes. If we have a reflection of the Astral plane, we also have a reflection of the Plane of Air, Plane of Water, Plane of Earth, and Plane of Fire. Not notions I am opposed to, and I'd love to speculate, but they are in the way.

But the astral plane is everywhere, it's one step away from every plane in existence. Thats why you have to travel through it for a mini-second when your doing plane jumping or did that change in PF?

[Xuldarinar]

But the astral plane is everywhere, it's one step away from every plane in existence. Thats why you have to travel through it for a mini-second when your doing plane jumping or did that change in PF?

the astral plane, under pathfinder, is to my understanding the line between the inner and outer planes. Much in the same way the etherial plane is the line between the material plane and the shadow plane. The astral plane, I don't think touches the material plane directly, as the elemental planes are in the way, but... I could be wrong.

[Milo v3]

the astral plane, under pathfinder, is to my understanding the line between the inner and outer planes. Much in the same way the etherial plane is the line between the material plane and the shadow plane. The astral plane, I don't think touches the material plane directly, as the elemental planes are in the way, but... I could be wrong.

Nah the first line of the astral plane description in the CRB is "A silvery void that connects the Material and Inner Planes to the Outer Planes" and it latter says "spellcasters utilize the Astral Plane for a tiny fraction of a second when they teleport, or they can use it to travel between planes with spells like astral projection."

I think you may have been mistaken because of the planar drawing for golarion, which shows it like a bubble around the inner, outer and reflective planes.

[Xuldarinar]

Nah the first line of the astral plane description in the CRB is "A silvery void that connects the Material and Inner Planes to the Outer Planes" and it latter says "spellcasters utilize the Astral Plane for a tiny fraction of a second when they teleport, or they can use it to travel between planes with spells like astral projection."

I think you may have been mistaken because of the planar drawing for golarion, which shows it like a bubble around the inner, outer and reflective planes.

Ah... fair enough. Thats likely the case.
My curiosity remains, but that has cleared up one thing.

[Psyren]

Astral touches everything:

http://i.imgur.com/InLbnTf.jpg

Note that it does not stop at the border of the Inner Sphere either, rather it suffuses the contents.

As far as reflecting non-material planes, my question would be why would you want this? Putting aside the incongruity of a Shadow-Celestia or Shadow-Elysium, about the only creatures that don't ever visit the Material fully as it is are the gods, and we don't need Shadow versions of them.

[Xuldarinar]

Astral touches everything:

http://i.imgur.com/InLbnTf.jpg

Note that it does not stop at the border of the Inner Sphere either, rather it suffuses the contents.

As far as reflecting non-material planes, my question would be why would you want this? Putting aside the incongruity of a Shadow-Celestia or Shadow-Elysium, about the only creatures that don't ever visit the Material fully as it is are the gods, and we don't need Shadow versions of them.

Ah, of course.


As far as that goes, it is more of a matter of curiosity than anything. Other places to visit and deal with, things that were shaped in mockery of the planes that are. What would the negative shape when looking at the plane of air? of water? of earth? of fire? What of the planes of the outer sphere? What would its interpretation be of these places, given the nature of the negative energy plane and its known creation of the Shadow Plane? They wouldn't necessarily have any use or relevance to those on the material plane, but I do wonder if they could under pathfinder and.. if so... what would they be?

[Milo v3]

Ah, of course.


As far as that goes, it is more of a matter of curiosity than anything. Other places to visit and deal with, things that were shaped in mockery of the planes that are. What would the negative shape when looking at the plane of air? of water? of earth? of fire? What of the planes of the outer sphere? What would its interpretation be of these places, given the nature of the negative energy plane and its known creation of the Shadow Plane? They wouldn't necessarily have any use or relevance to those on the material plane, but I do wonder if they could under pathfinder and.. if so... what would they be?

Wait, did the negative create shadow? I thought shadow created the negative. Though that was merely a personal theory of mine based on the fact negative lacks the ability to create..... though that could've happened before the Jyoti screwed with negative.

[Xuldarinar]

Wait, did the negative create shadow? I thought shadow created the negative. Though that was merely a personal theory of mine based on the fact negative lacks the ability to create..... though that could've happened before the Jyoti screwed with negative.

And I quote:


Shadow Plane: This place exists in flawed, mocking imitation of the Material. The warped spawn of the Negative Energy Plane, the Shadow Plane’s gloomy depths hold twisted reflections of locations and creatures from its bright twin, as well as gloom dragons, shadow-touched mortals known as fetchlings, and its own enigmatic natives, the d’ziriak.

[Psyren]

Ah, of course.


As far as that goes, it is more of a matter of curiosity than anything. Other places to visit and deal with, things that were shaped in mockery of the planes that are. What would the negative shape when looking at the plane of air? of water? of earth? of fire? What of the planes of the outer sphere? What would its interpretation be of these places, given the nature of the negative energy plane and its known creation of the Shadow Plane? They wouldn't necessarily have any use or relevance to those on the material plane, but I do wonder if they could under pathfinder and.. if so... what would they be?

My point though was that such reflections could be actively detrimental to the setting as a whole.

...Let me back up.

What this comes down to is a difference in our approaches. I treat the fluff like I do the rules - it states the way things are, and generally if something is unstated then it doesn't exist. So the text says the Shadow Plane is a reflection of the Material, and is silent about the other planes - I take this to mean that the others are unreflected. You take this to mean they could be and want to speculate on what that might look like; I on the other hand take it to mean that they aren't (otherwise the text would have said so) and instead speculate on reasons why this isn't the case.

In short I treat "the fluff doesn't say {phenomenon} doesn't exist" much like I do "the rules don't say I can't do this." Rather, I treat it as a no and think of reasons why the designers might not have allowed this.

For the Plane of Shadow in particular, I can't think of any benefit there might be to a Shadow Celestia or a Shadow Elysium. Given that the Plane of Shadow is, if not tinged with evil, at the very least extremely hostile to the living, it doesn't seem right that the heavenly realms would be capable of being reflected there. It would be anathema to them to be the cause of anything that could result in harming innocent life.

But there are reflections (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/shadow-creature-cr-1) of Angels and other celestial beings in the Plane of Shadow too. If Celestia et al. themselves are not being reflected, where do those beings come from? The easiest answer (and the one that fits with RAW and "FAW" alike) is that these are the reflections of Angels that have visited the material. The PoS reflects everything on the material, even outsiders that are merely passing through.

And this then leads me to an elegant realization - I always wondered why Angels do not visit the material more often and heal/protect as many mortals as they can. After all, if they are beings of Good, surely protecting innocents is a good thing. But then I understand; if in fact the Plane of Shadow reflects such beings when they drop in, and if in fact those reflections range from being dispassionately amoral to actively immoral (i.e. "usually Nongood"), it stands to reason that said angels would be reluctant to visit and create more of them. Thus they rely on inspiring good mortals instead.

Thus the fact that only the Material is reflected helps to explain other facets of the setting, and is to me the more desirable interpretation.

[Xuldarinar]

-Snip-

This is actually a very sound argument. It make sense. To me, as noted, that doesn't mean there isn't room for such planes but your rational for their non-existances and the resulting reason as to why celestials wouldn't be as keen to visit the material makes a great deal of sense. I rather like it in fact.

Though, I should note, there is the assumption that the negative energy reflection of the planes would all be basically a shadow equivalent. I could see the attempts being more along the lines of, for instance; Planes of vacuum, salt, dust, and ash, standing as the Negative's attempt at elemental planes, as opposed to merely a shadow air, shadow water, shadow earth, and shadow fire, but.. I don't object to either or other possibilities, or necessarily the notion that the Negative only went as far as its own counterpart of the material plane.


Part of my reasoning that there are more planes isn't just from a gap left there but also from this thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q6qr&page=1?No-aliens-in-the-afterlife), which took me some time to find:



There are absolutely aliens in the afterlife... but they don't necessarilly go to the same outer planes as life forms from Golarion! The outer sphere, remember, is UNIMAGINABLY vast, and there are COUNTLESS other planes out there for other cultures and other races (including all those aliens) to go to.

Not all Lawful Good souls go to heaven, in other words. There are other Lawful Good outer planes out there as well. We just don't talk about them for the same reason we don't really focus much on other worlds than Golarion and (to a much lesser extent) the distant worlds of Golarion's solar system—we just don't have the time or resources to detail everything.

With the vastness of the outer sphere, and literally countless planes that are not discussed, I stand to reason that its possible that the negative could have spawned things beyond the shadow plane. Im not saying it reaches all the way out to those lovely planes, or is anywhere near as accessible or relevant to the dealings on the material plane as the planes they are made in reflection/mockery of., but I still feel there is something worth contemplating.

[Psyren]

Part of my reasoning that there are more planes isn't just from a gap left there but also from this thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q6qr&page=1?No-aliens-in-the-afterlife), which took me some time to find:



With the vastness of the outer sphere, and literally countless planes that are not discussed, I stand to reason that its possible that the negative could have spawned things beyond the shadow plane. Im not saying it reaches all the way out to those lovely planes, or is anywhere near as accessible or relevant to the dealings on the material plane as the planes they are made in reflection/mockery of., but I still feel there is something worth contemplating.

It could have, but here's the thing - even if it didn't, all those countless outer planes still make sense. Remember, that every one of those alien worlds he mentions are on the Material somewhere. So even if there is, say, a separate CN afterlife for Klingons, the PoS doesn't have to reflect that plane, because the Klingon homeworld is somewhere on the Material and thus any Klingons and Klingon-related Outsiders will be there. Thus, reflecting the Material will capture them all as well.

[Milo v3]

Part of my reasoning that there are more planes isn't just from a gap left there but also from this thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q6qr&page=1?No-aliens-in-the-afterlife), which took me some time to find
I must say I do always like the idea of petitioners for all types of creatures. Though, my players did taunt the colossal true dragon petitioner for his weak soul.