Tier ratings for PoW classes!

[Katana1515]

I recently plowed through the path of war content currently on the SRD, and was considering introducing it slowly to my rise of the runelords game. One of my players reacted in a quite strongly negative fashion to this, saying they were broken. In terms of tiers he was adamant they are T2 and can do 'campaign breaking' things.

Now I have only seen what's on the SRD, not the new expanded stuff, but the impression I got was off very solid T3 classes with lots of fun options. Am I missing something? I can see that they might have good damage outputs and be fairly resilient, but I have run 3.5 games with 300+ damage on a charge uberchargers and didn't class that as anywhere near 'campaign breaking'. So maybe my perspective is off?

What problems have people run into introducing PoW to your games?

[PsyBomb]

Alright, an explanation first: doing 300+ damage on a charge results in a T4 character. That's it. T3 is being able to do awesome things while also having utility when murderdeathkill is not called for, while T2 and T1 are able to break open campaign worlds (the main difference being that T1 is able to meet ANY situation given a night's rest if played to optimum levels where T2 might not have the tools needed).

EVERY PoW class and archetype lands either in T3 or high T4, without exception. The big thing is that they have very high power floors as well, meaning that they can be built into those tiers by someone with very little system mastery who is just picking things because they look and sound cool. I don't know them all well enough to give the 100% breakdown, so I'll leave it to someone who uses the system more, but that is the big thing. All of them will deal very solid damage when built with the least bit of care, and most have significant utility with it.

EDIT: This includes the PoW: Expanded options that haven't made it to the SRD yet.

[Katana1515]

Alright, an explanation first: doing 300+ damage on a charge results in a T4 character. That's it.

This is what I was trying to help the player understand. As a DM, I am not scared by a martial PC who can excel at his role and do a few other things out of combat. As far as I can see, this system doesn't give provide anything as troublesome as say invisibility or fly can be at low levels, or long range teleport or planar binding at high ones.

The main problem I can see is perhaps overshadowing stock martial types?

[Sacrieur]

They do combat very well with some translation into other skills. For instance, Veiled Moon lets you teleport at will, which is nice.

But they're all Tier 3 and 4, which is why they're considered to be so awesome.



This is what I was trying to help the player understand. As a DM, I am not scared by a martial PC who can excel at his role and do a few other things out of combat. As far as I can see, this system doesn't give provide anything as troublesome as say invisibility or fly can be at low levels, or long range teleport or planar binding at high ones.

The main problem I can see is perhaps overshadowing stock martial types?

You shouldn't let martial classes bring down initiators. You should boost martials to be more equal to initiators. I created one such solution, called the Initiator Balance Rule (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418881-Initiator-Alternate-Rule-Balance-Fix).

[Elricaltovilla]

When designing the Path of War Classes and their associated abilities, we tried to balance them around being as strong/useful as the Magus, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Warpriest, Investigator, and Barbarian. When compared to those classes, they balance quite well. While it's true that classes like the Fighter, Monk and Rogue will pale a bit in comparison to the PoW (and PoW:E) classes, this can easily be remedied through the use of archetypes from Path of War: Expanded (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit?usp=sharing), or simply giving those core classes you feel might lag a bit access to maneuvers natively (I'd be happy to provide you with a suggested list if you like).

I've got plenty of experience playtesting, playing as and running games for PoW and PoW:E classes, including a Kingmaker Campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412824-A-Kingdom-of-Their-Own-A-Trio-of-Tieflings-Play-Kingmaker) that you can read up on for some insight. Some additional advice would be:

1. Don't be afraid to use PoW material yourself. Adding a Counter or Boost to an enemy's repertoire of abilities gives them more durability and new ways to affect the battlefield. I tend to avoid adding strikes to enemies, except for low level ones or ones that provide truly interesting abilities (Solar Sting (solar wind 1) is a great example, as is Fading Strike (Veiled Moon 2)) as I'm not usually out to kill my players.

2. More enemies is better than stronger enemies. This is usually true regardless, but it helps to have many enemies that you can control in order to split up your party's actions and help the fight go longer to make things more interesting. If you do have a fight that's party vs. 1 guy, use the above suggestion and also look at giving your solo guy more actions or stages.

3. Use terrain! A lot of PoW maneuvers have interesting interactions with things like choke points, difficult terrain, pits, walls, etc. Not only can these create interesting features for your party or your monsters to take advantage of, but it gives your players a reason to use maneuvers that allow them to manipulate or ignore penalties associated with their maneuvers.

Don't feel bad if your Primal Fury charger player gets to ignore difficult terrain, that's an opportunity for him to feel awesome because he readied the right maneuver that day. The same goes for cover and concealment on archer characters. As frustrating as it might be to see your cool effects negated, think about how excited your players will get when they think "Hey! I have something for this!"

4. We have a FAQ thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420178-Pathfinder-Dreamscarred-Press-FAQ) (much glory and many thanks to Keledrath for getting it up and running) and as always, we're around on our own threads here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423981-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Expanded!-%28Discussion-Thread-VI%29) and on other sites (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rirm?Dreamscarred-Press-Announces-Path-of-War) if you have any questions.

[RedOndjage]

My table uses PoW material almost exclusively now when we make martial characters, and they are a lot of fun mechanically. We have one player using a baseline ranger, and the PoW classes don't overshadow him in any significant way either, which is nice. They've done an excellent job of creating classes that kickass in combat and can be useful outside of it. Even my Zweihander Sentinel is useful outside of combat between his Tradition connections and buttload of skill points. I won't play a martial anymore unless it has a PoW archetype!

[Extra Anchovies]

I feel like the general usefulness of initiating classes is somewhat overestimated, and they generally run high T4 to low T3. They can fight really well, and make combat actually interesting, but outside of combat most of them have only their skill points to rely one, plus maybe one class feature (the Harbinger gets some alternate movement modes, the Zealot lets the party communicate telepathically, etc). To me, that falls closer to "Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise" than it does to "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate".

[mostholycerebus]

With the new material I could begin to see a handful of very specific builds getting into low Tier 2, maybe. But in general, they are solid Tier 3's, just somewhat more effective and fun than some of the weaker classes.

[Extra Anchovies]

The main draw of initiators is not that they're better than other martials, it's that they're more fun and can be as powerful without sticking to one build (uberchargers etc). They also introduce meaningful choices into combat (which strike do I use? Do I use this counter, or save the action for a boost but risk being hit?), which is something that martials are generally lacking.


With the new material I could begin to see a handful of very specific builds getting into low Tier 2, maybe. But in general, they are solid Tier 3's, just somewhat more effective and fun than some of the weaker classes.

How so? Being able to stomp through every combat with ease is a T4 thing, and I don't see any PoW class trivializing noncombat obstacles.

Although in theory, the Mystic can do a fairly good job of breaking a game, especially a low-power one, if they pick up crafting feats and go for maximum wealth abuse.

[Anlashok]

Depending class in the T3-4 range.

Admittedly, the damage in PoW is kind of problematic and it gives pretty substantial boosts to combat styles that didn't really need them ( THF, Archery ) and you're more or less invalidating every other class that doesn't have spellcasting when you include PoW, but that's still not putting you anywhere near T2.

[Elricaltovilla]

I feel like the general usefulness of initiating classes is somewhat overestimated, and they generally run high T4 to low T3. They can fight really well, and make combat actually interesting, but outside of combat most of them have only their skill points to rely one, plus maybe one class feature (the Harbinger gets some alternate movement modes, the Zealot lets the party communicate telepathically, etc). To me, that falls closer to "Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise" than it does to "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate".

It's hard to accurately tier them because there's so much variation in the abilities the class can take, especially when you start swapping around disciplines. There's no doubt that the one thing they do well is combat, but a Warlord with Golden Lion, Veiled Moon, and Silver Crane is going to play completely differently than one with Solar Wind, Tempest Gale and Steel Serpent.

looking at the system as a whole, they have ways to manipulate action economy, heal, debuff/cc, fly, buff, teleport, ignore immunities and resistances (as well as DR and Hardness) and a few unique things like the ability to swap around enemy buffs/debuffs or send people plane hopping against their will. Now it's pretty much impossible to get all of that on one character, but the fact that a PoW character could have any of those abilities is what makes them tier 3. A real game wizard can't do everything a Quantum Game Theory Wizard can do, but it could have access to any of the things a QGTW can do, changing from day to day.

I also think that people tend to undervalue skill checks in the tier system. They might not be the most efficient way to handle their respective tasks, but Diplomancy is a thing, and knowledge checks are incredibly useful, and the nature of discipline skills encourages initiators to have those skills in abundance and to invest in them.

[RedOndjage]

My table primarily deals with things through skill checks, then falls back on magic if we can't figure out a way to skill our way through a challenge. We figure that spell slots are better spent on things that could potentially kill us (combat), than in trivializing skill based classes. In our case, initiators are definitely tier 3.

[Vhaidara]

I personally don't think anything breaks T2, but there are a few disciplines that push the T3/T2 border harder than pretty much any ability existing

Sleeping Goddess: A lot of VERY nice teleportation maneuvers give a lot of strong utility

Veiled Moon: the above, but also some of the nicer boosts (ghostwalk in particular). Also, the 9th is no save remove from combat (making the save drops it from days to rounds)

Riven Hourglass: This has the most legitimate potential. Strong damage maneuvers, extremely powerful stances (Distorted Clock), Counters that God would kill for (extra actions, Clockwatcher, "NOPES"), and the strongest style feats in the book. Absolutely INSANE. But hey, it's breaking time with your kung fu. Also known as being a total baller.

Oh, and casters still do it better.

[Extra Anchovies]

I also think that people tend to undervalue skill checks in the tier system. They might not be the most efficient way to handle their respective tasks, but Diplomancy is a thing, and knowledge checks are incredibly useful, and the nature of discipline skills encourages initiators to have those skills in abundance and to invest in them.

That's as may be, but a Warlord has exactly as many skills as the Cavalier, who (due to the absurd power of mounted charging) can more than hold their own in combat. Sure, Warlord is possibly stronger and definitely more versatile in combat, but the two classes are of equal noncombat utility. The difference between T3 and T4 isn't how good you are at your main thing (they both use the language "capable of doing one thing quite well"), but how good you are at the other stuff. From how I see it, your assessment puts the Cavalier in T3, which isn't entirely correct, since the Cavalier would have trouble holding up next to, say, a Magus, an Alchemist, and an Inquisitor.

However, this isn't a bad thing. Thinking that every class has to be T3 to be balanced and effective is, well, wrong. Some classes are really good at one thing (e.g. fightan), enough so that they don't need to be good at many other things to hold up in a well-designed party.

[Felyndiira]

Most of Path of War is Tier 3. The main strength of PoW is how versatile it is (especially with expanded), allowing you to build your character however you would like. You don't even have to use strikes if you don't want to - one of my current characters is a Dual Wakizashi + Shield Bushi with 54.5 DPR at level 6 with just full attacks, not including gambits or boosts. This has allowed me to use all of my maneuvers for utility instead of damage, which meant a lot of cool stuff pulled from Eternal Guardian, Veiled Moon, and Mithral Current.

I think the closest disciplines that PoW has to approaching Tier 2 are Riven Hourglass and Shattered Mirror, bringing them a bit closer to an Oracle in terms of sheer power pre-level 9.

[marphod]

The tier 6 PC Class (CW Samurai) can still do Lots and Lots of damage a round. It requires some optimization, but not all that much.

The Tiers aren't about damage. The person who does the most damage in D&D does not win. Often, they die due to long range spells, lack of sensory perceptions, and status effects.

[Elricaltovilla]

That's as may be, but a Warlord has exactly as many skills as the Cavalier, who (due to the absurd power of mounted charging) can more than hold their own in combat. Sure, Warlord is possibly stronger and definitely more versatile in combat, but the two classes are of equal noncombat utility. The difference between T3 and T4 isn't how good you are at your main thing (they both use the language "capable of doing one thing quite well"), but how good you are at the other stuff. From how I see it, your assessment puts the Cavalier in T3, which isn't entirely correct, since the Cavalier would have trouble holding up next to, say, a Magus, an Alchemist, and an Inquisitor.

However, this isn't a bad thing. Thinking that every class has to be T3 to be balanced and effective is, well, wrong. Some classes are really good at one thing (e.g. fightan), enough so that they don't need to be good at many other things to hold up in a well-designed party.

The Warlord does have additional noncombat utility over and above the cavalier though. Tactical Assistance is useable outside of combat, and can add significant bonuses to an ally's roll (likely 4+). The various Warlord presences also offer out of combat utility (Indomitable and Rallying for all warlords, and the bannerman presences for bannermen specifically). Warleader is similar to the tactician's own teamwork feat sharing, and there are teamwork feats that offer non-combat utility, like Stealth Synergy, Team Pickpocketing, and Tribe Mentality. This is entirely separate from the choice of maneuvers he makes, like when I pointed out before how use of Golden Lion (Discipline of the Pride), Silver Crane (Punch your allies to make them feel better), and Veiled Moon (teleport anywhere, get plenty of stealth bonuses, incorporeality) plays very differently from a warlord using Solar Wind, Steel Serpent and Tempest Gale.

Just as a base example, objects like the ground or a wall have AC 5. At 3rd level, you could initiate Fading Strike (Veiled Moon 2) to teleport up to your movement speed across a chasm or up a wall.

[Felyndiira]

The tier 6 PC Class (CW Samurai) can still do Lots and Lots of damage a round. It requires some optimization, but not all that much.

The Tiers aren't about damage. The person who does the most damage in D&D does not win. Often, they die due to long range spells, lack of sensory perceptions, and status effects.

That's not quite true. One of the bridges between Tier 5 and Tier 4 is "doing one thing quite well", which comes down partially to damage potential for the damage dealers (like most initiators). That's why Barbarians, despite not having very much versatility, are still tier 4. It's also why Zen Archer raises the monk to Tier 4 by damage alone.

Path of War characters are Tier 3 because they can "doing one thing quite well" and "still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate". Damage is a major component of being able to "doing one thing quite well" - though initiators can also fulfill that requirement with tanking or battlefield control instead. Maybe buffing as well, but I don't know if Golden Lion alone is enough to qualify.

[Tuvarkz]

I personally don't think anything breaks T2, but there are a few disciplines that push the T3/T2 border harder than pretty much any ability existing

Sleeping Goddess: A lot of VERY nice teleportation maneuvers give a lot of strong utility

Veiled Moon: the above, but also some of the nicer boosts (ghostwalk in particular). Also, the 9th is no save remove from combat (making the save drops it from days to rounds)

Riven Hourglass: This has the most legitimate potential. Strong damage maneuvers, extremely powerful stances (Distorted Clock), Counters that God would kill for (extra actions, Clockwatcher, "NOPES"), and the strongest style feats in the book. Absolutely INSANE. But hey, it's breaking time with your kung fu. Also known as being a total baller.

Oh, and casters still do it better.

Elemental Flux also gives a nice mix of damage, countering (Turning spells and stuff into health or bouncing them back at the enemy is awesome), and lockdown. Harbringer swapping it in does wonders, esp considering that the Rapier is discipline weapon also for all of the other disciplines.

[mostholycerebus]

I personally don't think anything breaks T2, but there are a few disciplines that push the T3/T2 border harder than pretty much any ability existing

This is probably a better explanation/definition. PoW characters arent 'more focused tier 1' as T2's are defined as, but they have as much and more capability than most T3's. Teleport, skills, and other powers all have multiple applications outside combat.

[Katana1515]

Thanks for all the replies guys, I definitely want to play around with this system now. Indeed I have got some players together on the PbP subforum for a purely dreamscarred press PoW/Akashic/Psionics game! (Still needs a GM/open to players if anyone is keen?)

Also I might try and slot it into my table game, rebuilding NPCs with a few initiator levels or an archetype.