Looking for higher LA "I'm Tiny, you're Dead" races

[FrancisBean]

For reasons of in-character intra-party conflicts, there's a good chance I'm about to have a character written out of play. There's also a good chance I'll get a few concessions on the next character in exchange for giving up the current one. Most likely, it'll come in the form of some free LA write-off. (I'm asking for 3 pts as my opening bid. I probably won't get it -- but the campaign is pretty cinematic, so you never know!)

I've decided I want an "I'm tiny, but you're dead" build. That is, the front-liner Small or Tiny character. And since I'll be retiring a gnome, I'm looking for something other than another gnome. (Which means no Blade Bravo.) For fluff and color, I'm going to reduce his Language (Common). I picture him charging into battle yelling broken war cries: "I WILL BRAID YOUR NOSTRIL HAIRS!" "IMMA ROTATE YOUR ACORNS!!"

He'll start at the beginning of 12th level, unless I build the XP loss of (4+) LA buyoff into his progression. EDIT: This is 3.5, Core+Races+Complete+Tomes; Dragon Mag is "ask first."

Given a 3-pt reduction on Racial LA, what's my best race and class approach to building this one? I've read the existing builds, but they all avoid anything over LA +1.

[Sian]

obvious choice would be Pixie Sneak attacker of some variant

[FrancisBean]

obvious choice would be Pixie Sneak attacker of some variant

The DM has previously banned pixies (due to a bad experience with a prior campaign), but I might be able to get that as my concession instead. It's a good thought I'd forgotten might be on the table!

[Bronk]

Maybe a Petal from MM3? It's only listed with LA as a cohort, but it's only +2LA, so maybe your DM would go for it. It's listed as tiny, but its art depicts them as the same size as dandelion seeds.

There's also tiny Jermalaine with no LA, but they don't fly. Maybe you could grab a template afterwards.

[ShurikVch]

Generally speaking, templates usually are way more LA-effective than races.
So, maybe it will be better to take a +3 LA of templates? Unless it banned...

[FrancisBean]

Generally speaking, templates usually are way more LA-effective than races.
So, maybe it will be better to take a +3 LA of templates? Unless it banned...

Any particular templates in mind? I've actually never used one, but I'm pretty sure they'd be OK. It's the size and front-line viability I want. (Except no gnome, like I said.) The fact that I can probably squeeze a few free LA just makes it possible to do without getting the usual sub-optimal character.

[FrancisBean]

Closing out the thread: it's all set now. I didn't get my LA freebie. Instead, I got something even better: the racial pre-req of Blade Bravo was waived to permit my Petal(!) to take the class. It's a little over-powered relative to what it should be; but when you compare it to a 12th level primary caster, I'm still volunteering for a big step down the power ladder.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to write a whole bunch of nonsensical battle-cries centering on abuse of the opposition's nads. Suggestions welcome. :smallbiggrin:

[IZ42]

I suggest having your character be the loudest, brashest, and the dirtiest sense of humor at the table, mainly because a half-foot tall screaming fairy-esque creature is too great to pass up, even if it is cliche. Bonus points if the Petal has a Scottish accent.

[andaval]

Haha, I just started a LA only campaign, and I settled on a pixie rogue with a Scottish accent. I guess it's a little predictable, but it is tons of fun!

[Snowbluff]

I nominate Muckspitter. It spits water into people's faces. :smalltongue:

[FrancisBean]

I suggest having your character be the loudest, brashest, and the dirtiest sense of humor at the table, mainly because a half-foot tall screaming fairy-esque creature is too great to pass up, even if it is cliche. Bonus points if the Petal has a Scottish accent.

Nope, no Scottish accent. But he has that lovely flower-petal Fey look, while chain-smoking vile-smelling cigars, belching and scratching himself, and loudly discussing your sexual proclivities in public under the guise of "constructive criticism."

I'm still waffling on a name. I think I'll dub him "'Cricket...' But folks usually dump the 'Crick' and just call me 'It.' You got a problem with that, fig-nads?"

Edit: Ahah! New Jersey docks walloper / Mob enforcer sort of accent!

[Snowbluff]

How do you feel about templates?

[FrancisBean]

How do you feel about templates?

I've nothing against them, but I've got my character set now. Thanks anyway!

(Although the educational value might still be worthwhile if you had a specific build in mind...)

[Tvtyrant]

I always wanted to play a fae as a 'typical' French nationalist, constantly insulting every other form of art or war as inferior. He would be from Fern Gulley and believe hand paintings were the highest of all arts, and any weapon other than flint was too practical and lacking in style.

[ShurikVch]

Note: Tiny size will give you several problems

Firstly, you will need to enter the enemy's reach in order to attack, because Petal have Reach: 0', while Small+ creatures usually have 5'
(Usual reach weapon wouldn't work, because doubled zero is still zero)

Secondly, your Str is abysmal.
Attack bonus easily fixed via the Weapon Finesse, but need to do something with your damage output.
Shadow Blade feat is one way to do it, but most of Shadow Hand weapons are flimsy, and the spiked chain is just silly :smallsigh:
Hit-and-Run Tactics is another way, but it's only when attacking a flat-footed opponent, and you wanted to play as a front-liner, not a backstabber...
Finally, 9th level of Corsair PrC (Dragon #321) allow to add your Dex modifier (instead Str) to damage with light weapon (or one-handed weapon, if you have Weapon Focus for it)
Corsair...
Pirate Pixie...
There is something...
I googled it, and found this (http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Zarina):
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130918231017/disney/images/thumb/7/72/548375_627909730583178_730319260_n.jpg/480px-548375_627909730583178_730319260_n.jpg

[Hiro Quester]

Keeping a good number of ranks in Tumble and high dex will make getting past opponents' reach not a huge problem.

The damage output is going to be an issue. But 3 levels of Swashbuckler will get you the prerequisite Weapon Finesse feat, and enable you to add your INT modifier to damage with rapier attacks.

[atemu1234]

I suggest having your character be the loudest, brashest, and the dirtiest sense of humor at the table, mainly because a half-foot tall screaming fairy-esque creature is too great to pass up, even if it is cliche. Bonus points if the Petal has a Scottish accent.

What're yeh laughin at, laddy? Ah'll shove me axe where tha sun don' shine, so help meh!

[FrancisBean]

Note: Tiny size will give you several problems

Firstly, you will need to enter the enemy's reach in order to attack, because Petal have Reach: 0', while Small+ creatures usually have 5'
(Usual reach weapon wouldn't work, because doubled zero is still zero)

Secondly, your Str is abysmal.
Attack bonus easily fixed via the Weapon Finesse, but need to do something with your damage output.
Shadow Blade feat is one way to do it, but most of Shadow Hand weapons are flimsy, and the spiked chain is just silly :smallsigh:
Hit-and-Run Tactics is another way, but it's only when attacking a flat-footed opponent, and you wanted to play as a front-liner, not a backstabber...


I played it last night, and while the damage output wasn't very high, it was more than enough to make him worthwhile.

Here's how I handled Tiny in the build.

First, you'd have to look back to see the one major house-ruled portion: as a concession for voluntarily retiring an existing viable character, I've been permitted to take the Blade Bravo PrC. (Normally Gnomes only, my DM is permitting a Petal.)

And then it's a mix of Rogue and Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse, Insightful Strike); 2WF with rapiers, and Improved Feint. Entered Blade Bravo at ECL 8. With the absurdly high Dex and Underfoot Combat, I've been happy to enter squares with my jumbo opponents. The resulting AC is simply ludicrous; most opponents so far have needed a 20 to hit me. (One of them got it, though... Knocked me back to Basic. Ow!)

Now remember that successful Feints make your opponent flat-footed to your next attack, and that Improved Feint lets you do it as a move action. Hey-presto, most of my full attack sequences include a Sneak Attack at the beginning.

Finally, strictly by WBL for the campaign, I bought Rapiers with Wounding. Every hit which does damage, adds a point of Con damage. It adds up very quickly.

Realistically, my only serious problem should be with opponents that don't take precision damage. Everything I've got -- sneak attacks, criticals, wounding -- is dependant on that. Otherwise I'm doing about 10 pts / round, and I'm better served to hide behind the party Goliath.

[Sian]

and you can't do a full attack sequence as a standard action, making Feint fairly useless for you unless you use one of the very few tricks to make it a swift/free action (Invisible Blade and Scarlet Cosair (Stromwreck) is the only two that springs to mind), paired with something like Surprising Riposte from Drow of the Underdark

[ShurikVch]

I played it last night, and while the damage output wasn't very high, it was more than enough to make him worthwhile.I'm glad it worked for you

And then it's a mix of Rogue and SwashbucklerDo you know about the Daring Outlaw feat?

2WF with rapiers:smallconfused: Do you OK with -4/-4?

With the absurdly high Dex and Underfoot Combat, I've been happy to enter squares with my jumbo opponents.What's about the smaller opponents, such as goblins and kobolds?
Now remember that successful Feints make your opponent flat-footed to your next attack, and that Improved Feint lets you do it as a move action. Hey-presto, most of my full attack sequences include a Sneak Attack at the beginning.Beware minotaurs - they are never flat-footed
Realistically, my only serious problem should be with opponents that don't take precision damage. Everything I've got -- sneak attacks, criticals, wounding -- is dependant on that.How about the Penetrating Strike ACF?

[FrancisBean]

and you can't do a full attack sequence as a standard action, making Feint fairly useless for you unless you use one of the very few tricks to make it a swift/free action (Invisible Blade and Scarlet Cosair (Stromwreck) is the only two that springs to mind), paired with something like Surprising Riposte from Drow of the Underdark

Doh! You're absolutely right, and in the rush of gaming last night, we totally missed that. Fortunately, it never actually came up -- I only did one sneak attack (from hidden), and got my full attack (First SA, rest normal) as a full round action. My SA damage right now is only 4d6 anyway, until I get my next level and Daring Outlaw.

I may just punt and buy a ring of blinking for the SA. If my DM didn't have a deathly fear of Pixies, I would have gone that way t solve the problem.

[FrancisBean]

Do you know about the Daring Outlaw feat?
Daring Outlaw is coming up next level. It's in the build. :smallbiggrin:


:smallconfused: Do you OK with -4/-4?
-4/-4: With the 2WF feat and rapiers (light), it's -2/-2. (SRD) Swashbuckler gives Weapon Finesse (Dex for attack mod), and Petals are +10 Dex. I rarely miss.


What's about the smaller opponents, such as goblins and kobolds?
So far I haven't run into anything Small, but remember that I'm Tiny. I still have a size advantage over (under?) them, that way. And I'm eying that permanent Reduce for Diminutive as soon as I can afford it...


Beware minotaurs - they are never flat-footed
Thanks for the tip -- I didn't know that! :smalleek: I still get my Con Dmg from the Wounding Rapiers, and Goad can keep them aiming at the small annoying thing they can't hit, so hopefully it'll work out for the party if we run into them.


How about the Penetrating Strike ACF?
I took it... I just didn't bother listing it in the build. I didn't give the full build, just the highlights. Since there's such a big house-ruled piece (Petal Blade Bravo?!?) I figured it wasn't worthwhile to the forum.

[ShurikVch]

-4/-4: With the 2WF feat and rapiers (light), it's -2/-2.Rapier is a one-handed (not a light) weapon, so -4/-4

[FrancisBean]

Rapier is a one-handed (not a light) weapon, so -4/-4

Doh! Right you are. Thanks for the catch. :smallfrown: That's what happens when you design in haste and have never done 2WF before. Probably not worth re-tooling, with the effective +5 to attack from the racial Dex mod. Particularly since Blade Bravo is purely Rapier focused, I'd have to rebuild nearly the whole thing. Although since almost all of the damage is coming from outside the weapon die, it would probably be worthwhile... But I'm already becoming attached to my chain-smoking, vulgar little fey.

[FrancisBean]

In re: the "Feint" problem, what do y'all think of Telling Blow? I'm already going with 2 rapiers, and I foresee a Scabbard of Keen Edges or some such in my future... Without working out the statistics, I think that'd be just about as good for getting my SA damage?

[Darrin]

In re: the "Feint" problem, what do y'all think of Telling Blow? I'm already going with 2 rapiers, and I foresee a Scabbard of Keen Edges or some such in my future... Without working out the statistics, I think that'd be just about as good for getting my SA damage?

Avoid it. You're better off taking a feat that works on every attack, rather than something that depends on a threat/confirmation roll. Myself, I'm partial to Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer).

Oversized TWF (also Complete Adventurer) will fix the "TWF with dual rapiers" problem, but rapier/kukri doesn't require a feat and is reasonably decent. Sized for a tiny wielder, the base weapon damage should be almost irrelevant: rapier = 1d3, kukri = 1d2.