How would one turn martials into ~tier 3 classes that are still martial?

[SangoProduction]

The first solution would obviously be to make every non spell casting class have full BAB, and they should have a fun bit of utility.

My question here is: for a martial class, what would be some appropriate utility?

For a class based around speed and what have you, a teleport which is actually just them running really fast makes sense.

I'm still trying to figure out what other utility would fit in the tier, and for which instances those utilities make sense (mostly the former. I could likely figure out the latter well enough.)

EDIT: Martial being defined as someone who doesn't rely on spells. It's something that would make a bit of sense of some hyper scaled up values of relatively normal humans would have (like strength, speed, skills, so on). Maybe something ridiculous like being able to fly by flapping their arms? I dunno.

[Troacctid]

You could backport the classes from 4th or 5th edition. They're a lot more balanced.

[Extra Anchovies]

What do you mean by "still martial"? The inquisitor is a martial character, but they get 6th-level spellcasting, as does the Magus.

[OldTrees1]

Step 1: Define your terms

What are necessary conditions for something to be a "martial" for this thread? This includes both positive necessary conditions(aka they must have this to be a martial) and negative necessary conditions(aka they must not have this to be a martial).

Step 2: Brainstorm

Once the question is known, then we can start listing appropriate utility effects.

[Hrugner]

tier 3 means they should be able to reasonably alter the scope and scale of any encounter by manipulating the environment, should have very limited reliance on outside magic and limited weakness to natural disasters; right?

This would require throwing mountains, charging through castle walls, grappling ghosts, absorbing or sharing the positive spell effects on your target, sundering spell effects, being plain enough that you evade detection and unpredictable enough that you evade divination. I don't know, it's a big laundry list of stuff that D&D doesn't really work through.

[marphod]

What are we counting as Martial?

Rogue, Scout, Fighter, Barbarian, Swashbuckler, sure. Ranger or Paladin? Hexblade or Duskblade? Ninja and Monk? Spellthief?

Obvious options are to re-make all the martial classes using a different set of mechanics. Bo9S is one option. Incarnum with a different theme pasted on. Binders with a different theme.

Another is to take existing abilities (for instance, bard songs and Channeling Energy) split them from the current classes and make that the centerpiece of the class and worth using.

Swashbuckler got class abilities representing their knavish nature, high mobility, witty repartee, and the like. Berserkers could tap into the base emotions of their opponents. Pugilists could cause all kinds of status effects with their unarmed strikes. Scouts got all sorts of movement abilities. Rogues could place traps as well as disarm them. Paladins could manipulate things with the power of their faith. The spellthief could actually steal interesting things.

The other side of this is to take the Tier 1s and 2s down a little in power. Lower the power curve of spells and remove some of the more broken ones (Wish, Miracle). Making coming back from the dead harder, damage harder to generate, and save-or-sucks less insurmountable.

[Jormengand]

You've already seen my veteran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428437-quot-Stand-back-boy-and-let-me-show-you-war!-quot-%283-5-class-PEACH%29). Give them tons of options, tons of special abilities, and let them use them all day long. Though actually, the veteran is shooting for T1. But you get the idea: things that sound really powerful such as "You get mundane resurrection" and "You can punch out a monk" and "You can Coup De Grace someone who's not helpless" and "You get two turns instead of one each round" will put you about on par with a wizard or cleric. If you want to be on par with a bard, you don't even need that.

[bekeleven]

I've done this twice.

One makes you into a pile of mundane abilities. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332829) The other makes you into a mundane superhero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428004). They are appropriate for different types of games.

[OldTrees1]

EDIT: Martial being defined as someone who doesn't rely on spells. It's something that would make a bit of sense of some hyper scaled up values of relatively normal humans would have (like strength, speed, skills, so on). Maybe something ridiculous like being able to fly by flapping their arms? I dunno.

Parameters noted.

I see the high level generalist warrior (specialist warriors would be even better at some of these things but worse at others) as:

A being of endless reach.
The warrior has not yet encountered an obstacle that they could not name at least 2 ways to traverse. Through a balanced application of their great strength and agility they can roam the battlefield quickly. Some might zip around the obstacle(say a Wall of Force), others would exploit its holes, still others would just break their way through. But mobility is not the limit of their reach. They are a master of both melee and ranged warfare. Just as obstacles are little trouble for them such are limited expedience for their weaponry. Through unerring accuracy, exploiting weakness, and sheer force their attacks are not easily blocked. (I don't have a general mundane solution to Planar Travel yet)

A being of remarkable resilience.
Through martial prowess and reflexes he is able to avoid or block most blows including rays and insubstantial threats. Even when hit the warrior knows how to diffuse most of the effect away from themselves. What is left affecting them they deal with through their iron will and fortitude(which would be more than mere saving throws of course). The minor bruising they sustain(by diffusing what would have been deadly wounds) is repaired relatively quickly by their great constitution.

A being of perfect readiness.
While the mage and priest have been working on their careful craft that requires patience, the warrior has been honing their own craft. By pressing action into reflexes and developing great intuition the warrior reacts faster and faster than their companions. They start to progress towards the twin ideals of immediate reaction and constant action.

A being of knowledgeable destruction.
How many kinds of wounds can a sword inflict? A seemingly easy question with an equally easy apparent answer. However that is seeming and nothing more. A warrior has spent time pondering, and pondering, and pondering some more. As time goes on they notice the number they can count just keeps increasing. A slash to cause bleeding here, a thrust to immobilize a golem there, the twisting cut that terrifies a vampire, ... The list just keeps increasing and the warrior starts to wonder if they will still be adding new kinds the day they die.


So what would we see?
1) All martial characters get increased speed per turn through some combination of increased movement speed and increased number of actions.
2) They are able to use their movement inside of other actions either through some Spring Attack/Flyby Attack/Shot on the Run mechanic or by increased number of actions (Standard, Move, Standard).
3) The terrain they can move though becomes increasingly exotic. Early on their Climb/Jump/Balance skills and wall crashing render mundane obstacles moot. Increased ranged attack options combined with pole vaulting/wall running will get the martial close enough to flying opponents(if they don't decide to just use grappling hooks or hang gliders). Eventually the martials are expected to fight in live volcanoes and the planar vortexes of Limbo while maneuvering around/though walls of force. Just increase the wall crashing/skill using options from earlier and they will be charging through walls of force while quickstepping over the lava. Beyond that the Martial is not even hindered by planar boundaries.

[danzibr]

Pugilists could cause all kinds of status effects with their unarmed strikes.
This one sentence have me a myriad ideas.

Thank you sir.

[SangoProduction]

This all is looking pretty good.

To the guy who mentioned endless reach, and knowledgeable destruction, and what not, did you mean all of them, or those are specializations?

[OldTrees1]

This all is looking pretty good.

To the guy who mentioned endless reach, and knowledgeable destruction, and what not, did you mean all of them, or those are specializations?

Those are traits of the generalist. Specialists would be better than the generalist at some and worse than the generalist at others but would still have all 4 categories.

For instance the Juggernaut style would be specialized in endless reach(unstoppable force) and remarkable resilience(immovable object) but would only know about half as many kinds of attacks(knowledgeable destruction) and be about half as fast(perfect readiness).

[SangoProduction]

Those are traits of the generalist. Specialists would be better than the generalist at some and worse than the generalist at others but would still have all 4 categories.

For instance the Juggernaut style would be specialized in endless reach(unstoppable force) and remarkable resilience(immovable object) but would only know about half as many kinds of attacks(knowledgeable destruction) and be about half as fast(perfect readiness).

Ah ok. That makes sense

[Brova]

Here you go. (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=33310)

[Frosty]

This would require throwing mountains, charging through castle walls, grappling ghosts, absorbing or sharing the positive spell effects on your target, sundering spell effects, being plain enough that you evade detection and unpredictable enough that you evade divination. I don't know, it's a big laundry list of stuff that D&D doesn't really work through.Don't the Path of War classes do most of this stuff? Granted, one character can't do them all, but different classes within the system can do those things.