Eldritch Knight

[DracoKnight]

Okay, quick question: would you allow someone who's planning on playing an Eldritch Knight to swap out the Intelligence and the Wizard spell list for Charisma and the Sorcerer spell list?

The character concept is that they're playing someone who was trained as a fighter, and then at some point in their career they discover that they have magic instead of learning magic the way a Wizard does.

I don't see any balance issues with this, but I wanted to make sure that there wasn't.

[ZenBear]

As long as they don't gain metamagic I see no problem. In fact it might be a bit weak given the Sorcerer's smaller spell list. This does give me the idea of another Fighter subclass built for Sorcerer type magic that grants metamagics in place of War Magic and the rest.

[Drackolus]

As long as you don't mind them having access to Enhanced Ability, Warding Wind [EE], Water Walk, or Dominate Beast, which are on the sorcerer list but not the wizard. Not sure why you would, but there it is. Considering there are 52 spells levels 1-4 that are on the wizard list but not the sorcerer list, I think he's hurting himself more than he's helping himself. I'd be prepared to throw him a bone or two if he's making his character weaker to make it cooler - that should be rewarded.

[Rhaegar14]

Okay, quick question: would you allow someone who's planning on playing an Eldritch Knight to swap out the Intelligence and the Wizard spell list for Charisma and the Sorcerer spell list?

The character concept is that they're playing someone who was trained as a fighter, and then at some point in their career they discover that they have magic instead of learning magic the way a Wizard does.

I don't see any balance issues with this, but I wanted to make sure that there wasn't.

The only SMALL balance issue is that Charisma is a more useful ability score than Intelligence in a lot of campaigns; the Fighter doesn't have access to knowledge skills on his class list anyway, so Charisma for social encounters is going to be better. Still, being forced to use the inferior Sorcerer spell list more than makes up for that disparity.

[Kryx]

I would, sure.

Though I envision Cha casting on a Barbarian - the Rage Mage. Bloodrager from PF.

[ZenBear]

I would, sure.

Though I envision Cha casting on a Barbarian - the Rage Mage. Bloodrager from PF.

Another great subclass idea!

[Plus1Sword]

Something to consider is that EK(IIRC) is also limited to only Evocation and Abjuration. Personally I don't see too much of an issue(Unless you really don't like having a handsome spellcasting fighter over a fighter) as long as you don't give them metamagic.

[Rhaegar14]

Another great subclass idea!

There's already homebrew of it that exists on Middle Finger of Vecna (http://middlefingerofvecna.blogspot.com/2015/05/rage-mage.html), but it's pretty poorly done in my opinion. Spell Fury is excessively awkward in its design, and Eldritch Storm is just awful.

[D.U.P.A.]

The only SMALL balance issue is that Charisma is a more useful ability score than Intelligence in a lot of campaigns; the Fighter doesn't have access to knowledge skills on his class list anyway, so Charisma for social encounters is going to be better. Still, being forced to use the inferior Sorcerer spell list more than makes up for that disparity.

I disagree. Charisma has more chance to be picked because of more classes using it, while without wizard in the party, Int is more likely to be dumped, thus no members with decent Int. And knowledge skills can be picked with proper backgrounds.

[Rhaegar14]

I disagree. Charisma has more chance to be picked because of more classes using it, while without wizard in the party, Int is more likely to be dumped, thus no members with decent Int. And knowledge skills can be picked with proper backgrounds.

True enough. I'm probably biased because I hate playing characters with no/limited ability to contribute to social encounters.

[Kryx]

There's already homebrew of it that exists on Middle Finger of Vecna (http://middlefingerofvecna.blogspot.com/2015/05/rage-mage.html), but it's pretty poorly done in my opinion. Spell Fury is excessively awkward in its design, and Eldritch Storm is just awful.
Ya, the idea is around. I agree that this version needs some rounded edges. Charisma is definitely the stat to use, not wisdom. Here is my version:
Hatred brings forth willpower, willpower brings forth the resolve to act unshaken and fearlessly, to take matters to your own hands. To the Rage Mage, this hatred is so deep the will it grants is enough to shatter reality under their fists. Some are barbarians who dedicated their lives to further control their rage, exiling themselves to learn mysteries and secrets of magic, other are leftovers of ancient blood mingling akin to sorcerers from simpler or tribal communities, awakening fiendish or draconic destruction as they roar and foam, but regardless of their origins, all Rage Mages are known to trespass the borders of magic as a fine and precise art by fueling it with wrath, casting during deliriums most men would have trouble to barely think through.
Spell Rage. Beginning at 3rd level, you can cast spells while in a rage. Your rage damage applies to damage spells cast while in a rage. If a spell cast damages more than one target, you may only apply extra rage damage to one of the targets. In addition, casting spells during rage counts as attacking for the purposes of ending rage. You are unable to concentrate on spells while raging. When you choose this path select a spell school and Evocation. They will apply later.
Spell Slots. The Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must be in a rage and expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher. You know three 1st-level Sorcerer spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the Evocation or the other chosen school spells on the Sorcerer spell list. The Spells Known column of the Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows when you learn more Sorcerer spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an evocation or the chosen other school spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your Sorcerer spells. You use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a Sorcerer spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
Arcane Fury. Beginning at 6th level, weapons and magic are equally an extension of your rage. You can use an action to make a melee attack with Reckless Swings. Instead of gaining advantage on your attack you can cast a spell as a bonus action. This spell must use a spell slot no higher than 1/3 of your character level.
Wrathful Resistance. As your rage boils in your blood, it disrupts the flow of magical energy around you. At 10th level, while raging, you have advantage on all saving throws against spells.
Eldritch Storm. You can expel the might of your rage all at once to unleash a devastating storm of eldritch magic. Beginning at 14th level, when you can end your rage early as an action, all creatures within 15 feet of you must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 1d6 force damage for each round of rage you have left, or half as much on a successful one. After you use this ability, you cannot use it again until you complete a short or long rest.

[PoeticDwarf]

Okay, quick question: would you allow someone who's planning on playing an Eldritch Knight to swap out the Intelligence and the Wizard spell list for Charisma and the Sorcerer spell list?

The character concept is that they're playing someone who was trained as a fighter, and then at some point in their career they discover that they have magic instead of learning magic the way a Wizard does.

I don't see any balance issues with this, but I wanted to make sure that there wasn't.

Yes I would, charisma is maybe better than int. but the wizard spell list is way better than the sorcerer spell list. Ask the other players. And than allow it anyways.

[MrStabby]

If I didn't allow multiclassing then yes. If I did allow it then maybe...

If the player plans to get two levels of warlock and eldritch blast + bonus action attack at high levels anyway you have just given them All the EK casting on the ability score they wanted anyway.

Likewise if they want to multiclass into Paladin for smites then you have just removed the MAD problems (or again added their EK spells back for free). Whilst i don't think either are too broken at first glance they may be worth looking at.

[Joe the Rat]

A couple thoughts:

He's going to have a short list of always known spells, doesn't keep a spell book, and doesn't gain ritual magic. Who says it isn't inborn magic? Intelligence could reflect being clever enough to figure out how to manipulate the raw power within.

Why does the casting stat need to be tied to the spell list? Give him CHA-based, but pick your short list of (abjuration and evocation) spells from the wizard set. Or take the sorcerer list and stay INT-based. or simply swap it all out as you originally suggested.

Keep it simple. leave the rest of the EK abilities the same.

[Paeleus]

It seems harmless enough until someone starts multiclassing, as mentioned by others in this thread. And with Charisma being a more useful stat in general, it would help the character to not be just a smart, strong/dexterous character who is socially awkward.

But there is a particular MC that I will not shut the flip up about which casts off charisma, can spend a resource to do something BETTER than improved war magic at an earlier level, knows maneuvers, and depending on the archetype grants you even more goodies.
This guy gets a 5th level slot with ability to make more if he wants. And this all fits into his concept. Super versatile, super powerful, and fun to play and plan. The downsides? Never get a 4th attack, peaks at 3 attacks though. It's also kind of slow at level 3, but then it gets interesting. Curious what it is? Lol

[MrStabby]

There is also the "time in the spotlight" issue. Fighters excel at doing damage in combat and taking a lot of grief as well. CHA based classes are either less damaging or less tough but instead they get to shine in social situations. Once you have a character that is great at damage, has large hit dice, proficiency with all armour, a fighting style, spells (both utility and damage) as well as a stat that makes them a possible candidate for party face then it doesn't leave so much space for other party members to shine.

[HoarsHalberd]

There is also the "time in the spotlight" issue. Fighters excel at doing damage in combat and taking a lot of grief as well. CHA based classes are either less damaging or less tough but instead they get to shine in social situations. Once you have a character that is great at damage, has large hit dice, proficiency with all armour, a fighting style, spells (both utility and damage) as well as a stat that makes them a possible candidate for party face then it doesn't leave so much space for other party members to shine.

Actually Sorcerors and Warlocks have huge potential in combat. Sorcerors can dominate the field with twinned CC effects and powerful AoE elemental spells with Charisma to damage, and Warlocks with Eldritch blast can do almost as much damage a turn as fighters. Both can also do an awful lot more out of combat with level 5+ spells. Also Paladins are as good in combat as a fighter (better nova, lower but close DPR and all kinds of buffing.) Get more spells faster and can heal others out of combat. A character that's good in two of the three zones (exploration, social and combat) is hardly unheard of.

[Raxxius]

In my opinion, there are already far too many CHA based casters in the game. INT has become the dump stat of the edition.

I mean, I don't see anything mechanically wrong, but it's just depressing to see.

[Kryx]

In my opinion, there are already far too many CHA based casters in the game. INT has become the dump stat of the edition.

I mean, I don't see anything mechanically wrong, but it's just depressing to see.
No different than older editions for core classes. The difference is that Int doesn't have the same benefits as before.

Bard, Paladin, Sorc, Warlock have always been Charisma.

Wizard, EK (magus of PF), and AT are all Int.

Mystic is coming along to give us another Int class. There are several homebrew int classes such as Alchemist, Artificer, Engineer, etc.

[Raxxius]

No different than older editions for core classes. The difference is that Int doesn't have the same benefits as before.

Bard, Paladin, Sorc, Warlock have always been Charisma.

Wizard, EK (magus of PF), and AT are all Int.

Mystic is coming along to give us another Int class. There are several homebrew int classes such as Alchemist, Artificer, Engineer, etc.

I'm a second ed player at heart.

Bards were Int based, Paladins were Wis, Sorcs and Warlocks didn't exist.

But point still remains that there are a billion options for Cha based casters, and only 2 for Int based, one isn't even a full caster.

I also really don't like Psionics in D&D, this could stem from the horrible implementation of them in 2nd ed, but it's always been an oil and water thing for me.

[ZenBear]

a character that is great at damage, has large hit dice, proficiency with all armour, a fighting style, spells (both utility and damage) as well as a stat that makes them a possible candidate for party face then it doesn't leave so much space for other party members to shine.

You just described a Paladin.

[rollingForInit]

I'm all for changes like this. As others have said, I think picking the Sorcerer spell list actually hurts him, and I'd encourage him to keep the Wizard list and just switch ability scores. Switching around ability scores is a great way to change the flavour of a class, and it doesn't do much mechanically. Charisma might be better than Intelligence in some situations, but on the other hand Intelligence is great for Investigation and knowledge checks.

The only thing I'd be skeptical about is the new MC possiblities. For instance, I wouldn't allow a player to do this if they only wanted to dip into Warlock for 2 levels to get Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast. That's too cheap, and would just get a "no".

I'd make sure the player isn't going for something like that, and then I'd give them my blessings.

[rollingForInit]

Likewise if they want to multiclass into Paladin for smites then you have just removed the MAD problems (or again added their EK spells back for free). Whilst i don't think either are too broken at first glance they may be worth looking at.

I'd mostly be worried about Warlock (actually, I wouldn't allow it because it's so cheesy). I wouldn't care about Paladin if the player dipped for smites. They could do the same thing with an Int-based Fighter, since smites don't scale from Charisma.

[Citan]

It seems harmless enough until someone starts multiclassing, as mentioned by others in this thread. And with Charisma being a more useful stat in general, it would help the character to not be just a smart, strong/dexterous character who is socially awkward.

But there is a particular MC that I will not shut the flip up about which casts off charisma, can spend a resource to do something BETTER than improved war magic at an earlier level, knows maneuvers, and depending on the archetype grants you even more goodies.
This guy gets a 5th level slot with ability to make more if he wants. And this all fits into his concept. Super versatile, super powerful, and fun to play and plan. The downsides? Never get a 4th attack, peaks at 3 attacks though. It's also kind of slow at level 3, but then it gets interesting. Curious what it is? Lol
Ok, so we're talking about the idea of a CHA-based Eldricht Knight who can multiclass as usual right?

Then this puzzle seems simple enough to to me.
"Peaks at three attacks" (if you talked about three attacks in the Attack action): CHA-EK 11.
5th level slot + "better than improved war magic": Sorcerer 9 with Quickened Spell.

Which doesn't seem more "WOW" to me than the Paladin 11 / Sorcerer 9 by the way.

The real selling point of the EK against Paladin is the ability to put enemy at disadvantage against the next spell with any weapon hit imo. For the rest, 3rd attack is offset by +CHA to attack or damage, smiting capabilities, auras etc...

Frankly, there are two real balance problems imo in this edition.
The smallest one: Wizard feels alone, only INT-based class.
The biggest one: Paladin is just too good as a class, being great as pure (one of the few interesting capstones, interesting progression at every level) and basically a no-brainer choice for 75% of the multiclass builds at either lvls 3, 6, 7 or 9 or 11.

Although, as a player, I love this I have to admit. ;:)

[Sigreid]

Only potential problem I see, and I'm not sure it's really a problem is a mildly better synergy with a blade pact warlock M/C.

[Citan]

Only potential problem I see, and I'm not sure it's really a problem is a mildly better synergy with a blade pact warlock M/C.
Hmmm, not sure I see why.
If you say that for Lifedrinker, you can have +CHA to damage for you (AND close allies) earlier as an Oathbreaker Paladin (not even talking about the general greatness of Paladin).
If you say that for warlock spells and short slots, then... Could you detail what you had in mind plz? :)