Challange: building the ultimate army of GOOD

[Jowgen]

Here's the scenario:

All Hell has broken loose. Literally. Asomdeus has eaten the rulers of the abyss, become a greater deity and is now consolidating all powers of the lower planes in preparation for the war to end all wars. Cosmic powers everywhere have scrambled to seclude themselves in whatever way they could to let it all blow over. The Upper planes stand alone, mustering their armies in frenzied preparation for a final stand they know they can't expect to win.

The last hope lies in the material plane. All the great kingdoms have decided to band together and throw everything they can towards mustering their own army to send into Baator to try and land a decisive strike to tip the scales in the favor of good. None of those drafted expect to return, and no one expect that they can win; but they're all taking a very "one grain of rice" approach. Deal as much damage to the forces of Hell and the Abyss before we all go down.

You are the executive general of the material plane's forces and have exactly 1 year of time to muster the best army you can. You have access to as much magical gear as all the crafters in the kingdom can churn out in that time. By drafting adventurers from all over and training up NPCs you can get an army of level 13 on average. Your job is to decide on the standard gear, important roles that need filling and basic battle strategies. The tactical goal, as said before, is to send them in with no return and have them survive as long as they can while killing as many fiends as they can. Reasonable cheese-restrictions apply, the more valiant and good the flavour the better. :smallbiggrin:

[Bromidrosis]

they're all taking a very "one grain of rice" approach.:smallbiggrin:

What's this a reference to?

Also: First thing on my equipment list would be trinkets of "Protection from Evil". Your army will have either 35k each (NPC), or 110k (PC WBL), and at its cheapest a Protection from Evil trinket costs 7,000gp. That guarantees that they can't be charmed or dominated, and grants +2 to AC and saves. That's an incredible value that your entire army can afford.

Sure, if the caster level is only 1 they'll be easy to dispel, but each dispel the evil army has to cast is an action they can't use attacking, casting fireballs, etc etc.

[Jormengand]

This boils down to "What level 7 or less spells would be absolutely hilarious in this situation?" Well, the answer is Summon Monster Anything and Polymorph. Summon your choice of outsider, and turn it into an Efreeti. Get your items of Wish and go to town. For ultimate irony, summon a Bone Devil and turn it into an Efreeti.

Of course, an Ur Priest of ECL 14 (hey, you said average 13) has precisely no provision against them casting [Good] spells and is probably prepared to throw down with a Blinding Glory to blind every evil creature within a 1100-ft radius. Oh, that includes himself, but oh well? You don't need sight when you have an entire army of schmucks to fight the ravening hordes of hell for you.

[JDL]

Primary Goal: Gain allies.

Compile a complete list of who's currently aligned with the celestial realms and unavailable for alliance, who's been eaten by Asmodeus, who doesn't care enough about the material plane to bother intervening, and who has an interest in maintaining status quo. What's Bahamut doing during this year? A war that obliterates the material plane is going to destroy all dragons, so he'd have a pretty big interest in putting his spoon into this pot. He gets on your side and bingo, you've got the help of nearly every good aligned dragon in the material realm, which is a significant force of strength both in resources, combat power and magical ability. Likewise the deities of Nature such as Obad Hai will have quite a bit to say about demonic forces overwhelming the material plane.

Past this stage nothing else much matters. To fight a deity you'll need a deity, or a PC of deity status. Assuming we're talking TO here, if the current deities aren't going to step up and stop the invasion. you have the option of farming up a group of PCs on experience until they're equivalent level to challenge Asmodeus on his home turf, or just sealing off the material plane from invasion, such as in the Forgotten Realms with a mythal. Talking about theoretically fighting the hordes of Baator with level 13 NPCs is an exercise in futility without using some deus ex machina mechanic, since if I say I can win with n number of NPCs, you'll say you have n+1 bad guys.

[ben-zayb]

Without getting into any Miracle/Wish/Shapechange/Gate shenanigans, higher-power (such as deity favors) related shenanigans, or any method relying on specific classes or races, you can:

1. get a Skull Talisman of Polymorph (2.8k)
2. use the item to turn into a Shaedling
3. ???
4. profit

Basically, you have an army numbering any amount you want and being transformed/fused/etc into anything you want if it could be done via scrolls or power stones. Any possible combination of astral seeds, fusions, ice assassins of aleaxes of anyone (deity included), simulacras together, true mind switches, and chaos shuffles + heroics? Check! Maybe insert some Shadesteel Golem too, at your leisure. Of course, since by now they are also Shaedlings, each of them can also, with a swift action, generate any* item weighing 15lbs at most, which isn't really a limit if generated in a plane with no gravity.

*note that Scrolls, Power Stones, Artifacts, Relics, Spheres of Annihilation, and creatures/objects created via Item Creation feats, such as Shadesteel Golems, are items

[Renen]

Well you just make someone who can message mechanus and Celestia I think it is. Those guys will be sooooooooo happy he broke the pact. :D

After that you go free a bunch of ancient powers like Pandorym and point them at the biggest threat to their world domination: Asmo

Then, you go get the sphere of annihilation, go to the world well, and tell Asmo to sit down or die.

[Thealtruistorc]

War. Spell.

This is a feat from Dragon Compendium, and I can think of no better use for it than in a scenario like this. Throw out immense solid fogs, sleet storms, holy smites, and banishments to tear through the hordes like butter, or go nuts by throwing righteous might, wraithstrike, or haste on entire battalions.

Alternatively, there is the holy word approach. Craft contingent versions of this spell and send attached troops hurtling through battle with teleportation spells. The numbers will be diminished rapidly, and the erratic dissipation means constantly having to regroup.

Finally, Angels. Angels are much, much tougher than fiends of equal CR due to their cleric spellcasting, and I can guarantee that if you even begin to approach the demon army's numbers (I suggest solar gate chaining) you will have an easy time.

Apostle of Peace may actually work in this situation.

[Yukitsu]

It depends on the setting and strength of those kingdoms really. In a game my DM ran, the nation that I had built up over the course of the campaigns he was running was able to win against them for example. An army many millions strong of paladins and mages riding celestial dragons into battle. But if these troops are simple levies, there isn't much of anything they can do to even get beyond the city of brass.

[Bad Wolf]

Well if we're going by average, just make like a bajillion low level paladins and such and a couple hundred 23 level wizards.

[Xervous]

It would be pertinent to get people immunity to Blasphemy, Balors tossing them out at CL 20 kills level 10s and lower, 11-15 could get by with paralysis and dazing immunity...

[MightBeABook]

Well, let's see. For starters, Asmodeus as a greater deity without the Blood War to distract him is an utterly terrifying opponent, and it only seems reasonable to assume he could predict any strategy we can come up with, and will take measures against the worst. For starters, Holy Word is the obvious solution, so I assume he's taken measures against it becoming too effective - Anticipate Teleportation, at the very least. We're not going to get holy bombs inside his lines. He definitely outnumbers us, and his troops are probably on average capable of standing up to an unoptimized army. Fortunately, we've probably got more in the way of casting and class levels to play with than he does - if not, we have absolutely zero chance. Optimized bards, some using regular Inspire Courage and some using DFI, mean we can rip apart his troops in ranged combat - the raw damage archers can pump out with a bit of support would destroy Pit Fiends. Our wizards and clerics and such will likely be relegated to protection detail on the main body of troops, because even a single Devil inside the lines would wreak utter havoc.

Definitely worth considering the utility of greater requests for Miracles. The "win a battle" one in particular would be enormous, but we probably don't have enough spare experience on higher-level clerics to make use of it too often.

[daremetoidareyo]

Here's the thing, Demons are agents of chaos no different than slaad except for how evil they are. Asmodeus, on a fundamental level, cannot control them. Control is anathematic to their very existence. At best, demons can be bullied or bought into compliance, the latter of which they are rather likely to squelch on.

Good simply needs to have a rousing speech about the "crushing heel of order" to an audience of demons, and they have a rebellion, no matter who died in the abyss to transfer "official power" to Asmodeus. Demons fear slavery more than they fear death.

So 666 exemplars with maxed perform: oratory and diplomancy are plane shifted to each layer of the abyss and set up communication systems (some sort of wondrous item that allows for interplanar communication) between demons after making their rousing speeches: "Its better to die on your feet than on your knees." The succubi are shapeshifting rabble rousers who can impersonate devils and give incorrect commands.

After their mission, move the base of operation off of the prime to limbo. Use Self resetting planeshift traps.

Let the forces of evil and law try to tame the resistance that you just initiated. While wasting a ton of time "conquering" the prime material planes, which you've simply emptied into the limbo. Abandon the prime in order to survive.

The simple act of putting so many consciousnesses into a chaotic environment is to physically "vote" for chaos as a higher ideal than "order." There is an implicit understanding in the great wheel cosmology that belief begets power. The gods need belief in a solipsistic parasitism that is their "divinity." The outer planes themselves exhibit a version of this behavior themselves. There is a story of a town in the outlands that had so many people whose ideology that aligned with pandemonium that the plane of pandemonium itself drug the town nearer to its own border, eventually absorbing the town itself into it's plane. Just like a god choosing a cleric, a plane can choose favorites. This suggests that planes have a desire to fill themselves with like minded sentiences to enact whatever aims that the plane has. The imbalance of antipodal alignments in the abyss (lawful devils) will either 1.) push limbo further and further away or 2.) empower limbo with additional chaos energy that was once siphoned off by the abyss.


If "good" is going to die anyway, why not make it as frustrating a conquest as possible? Dying in a blaze of glory in hell after a year of training is the plan of an egomaniac, which is exactly what asmodeus would expect. And it accomplishes his goals anyway: all of your best resistance is destroyed in one hopefilled swoop. And here is where things get really meta. Asmodeus can only expect what your DM expects. Your DM is also likely to allow the RAW/RAI arguments in your PCs favor when the stakes get this high. Those resetting magical traps of the tippyverse may get a free pass. Further, this plan is more likely to function than your flash in the pan big suicidal attack, because it is too philosophically rich a fruit for many DMs to pass up. Either he/she buys your campaign building approach as a building block to riff on or you waste a tiny bit of resources to force your opponent to begin chasing you across the planes, which is a better place to begin than killing off all of your warriors.

Look at world military politics today: how do you win assymmetrical warfare as not the superpower? Insurgency, resistance, fear striking attacks, and difficult access. Insurgency is provided by demons very nature and will make protocol ridiculous in the devil's ranks: e.g. all devils must cast detect chaos between every order from xx rank of official devil due to false orders being distributed by shapeshifted succubi. Meanwhile, forcing the devils to chase you across the planes means that the upper hand is always yours, from the abyss all the way to the good side of mechanus. Limbo is the planar Afghanistan. The terrain is so unfriendly that any order attempting to conquer it finds itself mired and starved. Never congregate in large groups, because the super power will just begin mass extermination of all things that look similar. Make communication difficult to intercept.


Finally, build this redeemery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?410846-The-Redeemery-A-protocol-for-reliable-large-scale-conversion-from-Evil-to-Good&highlight=redeemery) in the hardest parts of limbo to reach. Kidnap high ranking Devils and begin diffusing them back into service as double agents. Begin training truenamers all the way to level 20 to chain gate the devil's you want for all the mind control shenanigans at the redeemery. You now have a cold war with Hell. The fear of double crossing in hell will lead to "purges." The most difficult part of sustaining assymmetrical warfare is that costs rise exponentially for the aggressors with the dominant military. They will either give up on the sustained efforts to exterminate good, which will allow your scrappy survivalists to break the evil empire down around itself.

[ben-zayb]

^ Hell seems to be in an everlasting political battlefield where trust is a myth of sorts, so brainwashing devils is a redundant tactic to begin with anyway. No way Asmodeus is keeping Mephistopheles around because they're chums, everyone from the top of the hierarchy (archdukes + Asmodeus) to the bottom of the foodchain are calling their own play for their own benefit...:smallamused:

[Elandris Kajar]

I like the idea, it could make a fun adventure.

Plane hopping Is a good idea, which I will second.

I personally would have my character go make deals with creatures from the outlands, mechanism and other neutral planes, as well as with Yugoloths and evil material plane creatures. If they don't like it ( they refers to the kingdoms) it is at least better than being overrun, and it won't be too many evil beings, but still, many are powerful and we need troops.

I don't believe any Devils short of maybe now Asmodeus can cast wish or miracle, so if we could sneak up while the Tarrasque is sleeping and cast plane shift on it, it would cause chaos. It auto-fails saves while asleep right? I think plane shifting might wake it up.

Or, you could assassinate Glasya, daughter to Asmodeus, which would enrage him, if nothing else. You just need him so mad that he uses most of his army to end you, and while he chases you, celestially invade Baator.

[Twurps]

Well, let's see. For starters, Asmodeus as a greater deity without the Blood War to distract him is an utterly terrifying opponent, and it only seems reasonable to assume he could predict any strategy we can come up with, and will take measures against the worst. For starters, Holy Word is the obvious solution, so I assume he's taken measures against it becoming too effective - Anticipate Teleportation, at the very least. We're not going to get holy bombs inside his lines. He definitely outnumbers us, and his troops are probably on average capable of standing up to an unoptimized army. Fortunately, we've probably got more in the way of casting and class levels to play with than he does - if not, we have absolutely zero chance. Optimized bards, some using regular Inspire Courage and some using DFI, mean we can rip apart his troops in ranged combat - the raw damage archers can pump out with a bit of support would destroy Pit Fiends. Our wizards and clerics and such will likely be relegated to protection detail on the main body of troops, because even a single Devil inside the lines would wreak utter havoc.

Definitely worth considering the utility of greater requests for Miracles. The "win a battle" one in particular would be enormous, but we probably don't have enough spare experience on higher-level clerics to make use of it too often.

Top the Inspire courage and DFI off with some 'Calling(su)' from the emisarry of barachiel PrC. Inspiring the forces of good, while demoralizing the forces of evil.

[Brookshw]

How much Canon am I allowed to use? How many cannons am I allowed to use. Does A still have that million strong Pit Fiend reserve I need to deal with (yay a million wishes to contend with!).

First thoughts, controlling logistics, so if its in play let's track down that Maeldur (I'm probably misspelling that name) critter from hellbound and get rid of the devils easy travel options. Create choke points at natural portals. Track down the Orbs of Dragonkind and see if we can get them patrolling the Astral (Red's already have a presence there after all).Open up a war on two fronts by thawing the ice in the hells, give A something at home to worry about. Use the prisoner in Elysium as bait perhaps.

The list goes on but I'll stop here for now.