Summon Pit Fiend?

[Snig]

Just wondering if this is possible in 5e? What is the fastest way to gain access to a spell / ability to summon a pit fiend?

[PotatoGolem]

Gate, probably

[PoeticDwarf]

Summon bigger devil? To be serious, if you know his name you can summon him. But how you can know that is the big question. With wish you have the 1/3 chance, of course.

[Ninja_Prawn]

With wish you have the 1/3 chance, of course.

Is that a 3rd edition thing? Because I don't see it in the 5e PHB.

Gate works, if you know the true name.

Also, Polymorph and True Polymorph can turn a level 20 PC into a pit fiend, which is probably easier and safer.

[Millface]

Is that a 3rd edition thing? Because I don't see it in the 5e PHB.

Gate works, if you know the true name.

Also, Polymorph and True Polymorph can turn a level 20 PC into a pit fiend, which is probably easier and safer.

Polymorph cannot, you have to change into a beast. True Polymorph can, though.

Planar Ally technically could grab a Pit Fiend, DM's discretion.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Polymorph cannot, you have to change into a beast. True Polymorph can, though.

Planar Ally technically could grab a Pit Fiend, DM's discretion.

I stand corrected.

It seems to me that you'd have to be on exceptionally good terms with a powerful devil to get a pit fiend out of Planar Ally. That's like calling up the president, asking for help, and having them immediately dispatch the vice president to wherever you are. It could happen, but it's a long shot.

[Sigreid]

Just wondering if this is possible in 5e? What is the fastest way to gain access to a spell / ability to summon a pit fiend?

My first response is... What a stunningly bad idea. Having said that, I think you have to know the name of a pit fiend that is o.k. with it. But inviting something like that to tea is a bad idea and scores high on the crazy meter.

[Ardantis]

I would say scores high on the EVIL meter, and less so crazy because Devils are Lawful.

[JellyPooga]

I would say scores high on the EVIL meter, and less so crazy because Devils are Lawful.

No, no; I'm pretty sure it's up there on the crazy-train; possibly more so than summoning a Demon. That Pit Fiend will hold that grudge for interrupting his daily routine for as long as it takes to exact his grisly revenge. You also have to be really sure that any contract you agree to with him is absolutely airtight, because if it's not (and it probably won't be), there'll be some loophole that Pit Fiend will exploit, probably at the cost of your soul. At least a demon will probably just kill you and have done; a devil will torture you for all eternity just for moderately inconveniencing him. That's some high stakes!

[Inevitability]

No, no; I'm pretty sure it's up there on the crazy-train; possibly more so than summoning a Demon. That Pit Fiend will hold that grudge for interrupting his daily routine for as long as it takes to exact his grisly revenge. You also have to be really sure that any contract you agree to with him is absolutely airtight, because if it's not (and it probably won't be), there'll be some loophole that Pit Fiend will exploit, probably at the cost of your soul. At least a demon will probably just kill you and have done; a devil will torture you for all eternity just for moderately inconveniencing him. That's some high stakes!

Rule of thumb when summoning devils: don't do it unless you have something they want enough to forget about the pesky mortal who dared summon them in the first place. We're talking big here; probably something like a few hundred innocent souls or a way to conquer a country.

...

Know what? Just don't summon them at all.

[Daishain]

Rule of thumb when summoning devils: don't do it unless you have something they want enough to forget about the pesky mortal who dared summon them in the first place. We're talking big here; probably something like a few hundred innocent souls or a way to conquer a country.

...

Know what? Just don't summon them at all.
Sure you're not thinking of demons? Devils and Yugoloths both are the wheeling and dealing type, at the same time, anyone with the skill and power to summon them in the first place is a potential asset. Throwing such a person away in a fit of pique would be foolish, and devils are definitely not fools.

Now, the summoner had better damn well not be wasting the devil's time, that much is true. But things are not nearly so dramatic.

You don't even necessarily have to aid evil in a bargain with devils. In fact you could do a great deal of good. Got word of a pit fiend organizing an invasion of the prime material? Go call a rival of his and quietly work together to sabotage those efforts and discredit him.

[JellyPooga]

You don't even necessarily have to aid evil in a bargain with devils. In fact you could do a great deal of good. Got word of a pit fiend organizing an invasion of the prime material? Go call a rival of his and quietly work together to sabotage those efforts and discredit him.

Remind me to do a deal with you sometime :smallamused:

Unless that rival is not a demon or devil himself, this is a phenomenally bad idea. For starts, you're doing a deal. That will get you fast-tracked to eternal torment. Secondly, you're doing a deal that will, without doubt, royally naff-off a second Devil.

You're not wrong that a Devil will not throw away an asset he thinks is useful, but some guy that just summoned him? That guy is not an asset until he proves it. Until that time, he's just some guy that interrupted his schedule to beg for a favour. I don't know about you, but if I was at work, minding my own business and suddenly I'm somewhere else and unable to squash the squishy that clearly just magically transported me to some place I'm bound to stay in until I agreed to some kind of terms, I'd be a bit naffed off and this guy had better have a darned good reason for spoiling my day.

Imagining that you have the requirements to be a useful asset to a powerful devil like a Pit Fiend is nothing short of hubris of the worst kind. Even if you are as powerful as you think, you're still going to have to watch your step...that Pit Fiend has friends...

[Daishain]

Remind me to do a deal with you sometime :smallamused:
Sure thing, fair warning though, bring a magnifying lens and a dictionary. I love me some fine print and difficult to follow wording. :smalltongue:



Unless that rival is not a demon or devil himself, this is a phenomenally bad idea. For starts, you're doing a deal. That will get you fast-tracked to eternal torment.Doesn't work that way. You could make a hundred thousand deals, and so long as you managed to abide by your god's tenets along the way (which admittedly would probably be very tough under such circumstances), would still have a secure afterlife.

Note that this also applies to evil people. Those who follow evil gods and do evil things get rewarded for it. Frankly, the only people that get royally screwed over in the afterlife are traitors, failures, and those who refuse to follow a god. Associating with devils is not recommended for people who follow good aligned gods, but it isn't a capital offense.


Secondly, you're doing a deal that will, without doubt, royally naff-off a second Devil.
This much is true enough. I was making an example, not suggesting that it is a good idea for anyone who doesn't have a badass certificate signed by Mordenkainen. Do recall that the example was within the context of someone who would in the absence of the deal be expected to take on the second devil and his minions anyways.

[Shining Wrath]

Doesn't work that way. You could make a hundred thousand deals, and so long as you managed to abide by your god's tenets (which admittedly would probably be very tough under such circumstances), still have a secure afterlife.

Note that this also applies to evil people. Those who follow evil gods and do evil things get rewarded for it. Frankly, the only people that get royally screwed over in the afterlife are traitors, failures, and those who refuse to follow a god

This much is true enough. I was making an example, not suggesting that it is a good idea for anyone who doesn't have a badass certificate signed by Mordenkainen. Do recall that the example was within the context of someone who would in the absence of the deal be expected to take on the second devil and his minions anyways.

I think that evil deities are, by definition, pretty damn evil. And therefore they treat you in the afterlife no better than they absolutely must for their own self-interest. Now, they do have an interest in people being evil on the prime material plane, so what's a self-interested evil deity going to do?

Convince people that the afterlife of a life of evil is better than it actually is. Much better. Much, much, much better. Because lying through their teeth (fangs?) is par for the course for evil deities.

[Daishain]

I think that evil deities are, by definition, pretty damn evil. And therefore they treat you in the afterlife no better than they absolutely must for their own self-interest. Now, they do have an interest in people being evil on the prime material plane, so what's a self-interested evil deity going to do?

Convince people that the afterlife of a life of evil is better than it actually is. Much better. Much, much, much better. Because lying through their teeth (fangs?) is par for the course for evil deities.
The details vary, but the default is that petitioners have an afterlife roughly in accordance with the life they lived. Followers of lawful evil deities for instance typically end up becoming low ranking devils themselves (Lemures), from there, they can advance themselves through brutal cunning just as they did in life.

[JellyPooga]

Doesn't work that way. You could make a hundred thousand deals, and so long as you managed to abide by your god's tenets along the way (which admittedly would probably be very tough under such circumstances), would still have a secure afterlife.

This is assuming the deal doesn't involve your soul being forfeit, which given it's a deal with a Pit Fiend, I'm not seeing how it wouldn't. If you substitute your own soul for those of others (which is about the only way you're going to get your own soul off the bargaining block, directly), that makes you're straight up evil. If you're evil, you're going to one of the lower planes. Go to the lower planes and you're just more meat for the grinder, regardless of your prowess in life.

The only way you're going to avoid an eternity of torment, outside of some extreme death-bed conversion (and it'll take a heck of a lot of converting to dodge what you've got coming), is by being powerful enough to actually kill (not just banish or slay their presence on the material plane, but actually cease the existence of it) that Pit Fiend before it can arrange a convenient death for you. Even then you've got a lot of ground to make up before you can expect to gain access through the shiny gates of the upper planes. No mean feat. Otherwise, this Pit Fiend will take you to the metaphorical cleaners and be laughing all the way back to the pit.

[pwykersotz]

Regarding deals...my favorite two posts ever about them.


In the classic words of Asmodeus, "Read the fine print."

Before I begin, let me just say that, if I wrote this entire post in evil text, I'd run out of purple. So let's just pretend, hmm?

A good Faustian deal is specially tailored to the situation - to the facts, people, and events involved.

First rule: Play to personality. When trying to corrupt a Paladin, he's going to assume you're lying and concealing. So be straight with him - he's going to doubt you anyway. Make him an offer that's literally too good to refuse. But with someone who thinks he can outsmart you - a Wizard, for example - don't be afraid to feign an oopsie. Layer your contract, and be sure that he can reveal one of the more obvious hidden meanings. He'll be so proud of himself for figuring out the trick that he'll miss all of the other hidden meanings.

Second rule: No surprises. Even if you sneak tricks into your contracts, make them obvious in retrospect. The sort of thing heroes kick themselves over missing. The irony is delicious, but more importantly, the players won't feel completely robbed. So be specific - the more specific, the better. Specific doesn't preclude vague, mind you. A classic example is "When I return, I'll take your hand." This may mean a limb, or it may mean marriage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHL3IPfYThw). Vague language begets suspicion; precise language prevents them from weaseling out.

Third rule: No legalese. As others have suggested, players shouldn't need a law degree to play this game. Tricky and precise wording is good; convoluted clauses involving elaborate language, punctuation, and numerous pseudonyms and redefinitions is just a jerky move.

Fourth rule: Always deliver. When someone signs a contract, they get exactly what they paid for. Sometimes, giving them what they want is so good that the fun isn't even in the fee you extract. A classic example is a Midas Wish - you can demand a very negligible fee for that sort of trick, since the real payoff is the misery they suffer from their own poor thinking.

Fifth rule: Be open to renegotiate. In fact, designing contracts as a slippery slope arrangement is part of the art-form. A good Faustian contract has a decent payoff; a great Faustian's payoff is another Faustian. And never assume you have only one client, either. Consider this. You want the Paladin's soul. But he's untouchable. Instead you sell the Fighter a sword. It's bloodthirsty, now he's bloodthirsty; he's damned. The Cleric is able to figure out where the sword came from - you were careful to make it apparent. The Cleric comes to you demanding a cure. You make him the offer; an orphan's tears. He does something unthinkable, loses favor with his deity and his faith; now he's a goner. Finally, the Paladin realizes what has happened, and confronts you. You make him the Final Offer - him for the other two. Which leads us to...

Sixth rule: Keep your eyes on the prize. Don't just make contracts for fun, fun though they may be. Always have a goal. Every deal you make, every signature and soul you take, should be in pursuit of that goal. Each contract is little more than a piece on the board, to be acquired and lost and exchanged as you move towards the King. A single King is worth an army of Pawns; always go for the King.

Now, in terms of the more mechanical aspects, the best time to make a deal is when the PCs are desperate. That's how Evil thrives; when people are willing to do what's Easy instead of what's Right. A friendly merchant you can trust to be untrustworthy is easy to implement at a moment of desperation.

But even before that, if you like, you can have a merchant on hand with a cursed item, a snake oil salesman in town making offers for needful things, an itinerant clergyman with an unusual penchant for knowing exactly what people want. If your players aren't suspicious of people like this, teach them to be.

As a gameplay aspect, however, be ready to provide them with three outs. Every problem should have at least three solutions. Some possible outs include Embrace damnation. Become evil and revel in it. Seize the contract. If your Faustian friend is dumb enough to keep the contracts as the equivalent of bearer bonds (admittedly a convenient way to deal in souls), take the document. Alternatively, buy it for market price or find a way to take it by force or authority. Make an exchange. Maybe the PC isn't the King your merchant of souls is after. Give the PC a chance to buy himself out of the hole - knowing that doing so is likely an Evil act. Take over Hell. If you own the place, you own all the contracts. It's not an easy solution - Asmodeus might take issue - but it works.Or any other idea you can think of. Be creative.

And remember the seventh rule: Some contracts are designed to be loss leaders. Sometimes, you want the PCs to "win" their way out of a contract - not only for fun at the table, but also to make them overconfident.

We love overconfidence.

EDIT: Allow me a few examples.

1. Contract for whatever. The price is as follows: "At some point in the next year, I will come to you. When I do, you will simply sit. That's all. For five minutes, I just want you to sit there. If I don't do this within the next year, you have no further obligations." Sitting seems innocent. Fast-forward nine months. The party is in the House of Nobles, which is now voting on a proposal to raise an army to fight against the invading devil-worshipping hordes from the North. The Speaker announces, "All in favor, please rise." The PC(s) in question feel a tap on the shoulder. "Please remain seated," whispers the deal-maker, "I'm calling in my favor." The vote fails, and the Northerners invade.

2. "See this coin?" The devil takes out a rather distinctive gold coin. "I'm very fond of it. My price is this. If I ever drop it someplace, you must pick it up for me. That's all. If you see it, pick it up." Fast-forward. The party is in an ancient temple of sealed evil. The final seal can only be broken by the touch of a noble warrior. The PCs read the inscriptions, and realize that they're safe; as long as they don't touch the seal, the evil within can never be released. They turn to leave - but one sees a gold coin resting on the seal. A very distinctive gold coin. And he knows what he has to do.

3. "You know," says the deal-maker, "I'm a reasonable fellow. I like to know with whom I'm dealing. So here's my price. Someday, I'm going to ask you for your name. Calm down, I'm not going to steal it or anything. I just want you to remind me, in a loud, clear voice. When I ask you, say your name, loud and clear." Fast-forward. The party has infiltrated some sort of ceremony, where either (a) a sacrifice will be given, or (b) a vessel will be chosen to receive some terrible, corrupting power. The master of ceremonies then intones, "And who is the one who has been chosen for this task?" Suddenly, the PC hears a voice. "I like to know with whom I'm dealing. Why don't you remind me; what's your name?"


The point is this: Not everyone is focused on the afterlife. Many people - very many, even in a world where divine powers are literally made manifest - are more focused on the here-and-now of their material present than some distant and symbolic future. Even ones who do lend some thought to the afterlife may not care. You make light of the fact that there are Detect Evil spells - well, there's also Atonement. If you're sincere in your repentance, a high-level Cleric can literally wipe the slate clean. There are larger-than-life heroes who save the souls of the damned and despairing on a regular basis. So why not take the gamble?

And that's the key thing. Even if your PCs are aware that they may be entitled to an eternity of bliss as Petitioners on Celestia or someplace, they may not want to die yet. They may want that moment's reprieve, that second chance. Or maybe they're willing to die - and be damned - to prevent something worse. Maybe they're willing to make that bargain to save a child, or a town, or a kingdom. The point is that every hero - every single one - has at least one moment of desperation, one defining moment, where the easy road would be so welcomed, so priceless, so incomprehensibly perfect.

And that's when the nice fellow with the perfect smile and the contract appears.

Diabolical compacts aren't made for everyone, or every day. They're made for that one perfect person, at that one perfect time. They're the offers you can't refuse. They're needful things. They give you that one thing, that one advantage or edge, that one asset you need right now, the thing for which you can't wait. The best compacts don't give you a gift with a twist - although that can be terribly entertaining - they give you exactly what you want. Something you can't do without. Something that you won't want to give up, even if it means you could rescind the contract and walk away scot-free.

That's why they succeed. Faustian deals succeed because there is always someone, even in the face of superior wisdom and experience, who would rather do what is Easy and Prompt than that which is Right but Difficult. They continue to succeed because once you have a taste of what you can have if you're willing to compromise on your principles, you'll stay for more.

There's one born every minute, friend.

[Daishain]

This is assuming the deal doesn't involve your soul being forfeit, which given it's a deal with a Pit Fiend, I'm not seeing how it wouldn't. If you substitute your own soul for those of others (which is about the only way you're going to get your own soul off the bargaining block, directly), that makes you're straight up evil. If you're evil, you're going to one of the lower planes. Go to the lower planes and you're just more meat for the grinder, regardless of your prowess in life.

The only way you're going to avoid an eternity of torment, outside of some extreme death-bed conversion (and it'll take a heck of a lot of converting to dodge what you've got coming), is by being powerful enough to actually kill (not just banish or slay their presence on the material plane, but actually cease the existence of it) that Pit Fiend before it can arrange a convenient death for you. Even then you've got a lot of ground to make up before you can expect to gain access through the shiny gates of the upper planes. No mean feat. Otherwise, this Pit Fiend will take you to the metaphorical cleaners and be laughing all the way back to the pit.
Are you sure you aren't substituting real world legends for D&D lore? To my knowledge, no contract, regardless of what it says, can override the afterlife system. If a rogue signs something that says his soul belongs to the devil glabiflaxx, and then continues to abide by Tymora's tenets for the rest of his life, said rogue will be relaxing in Arborea and Glabiflaxx will be SOL.

Now, if we were talking about a lawful deity, that might be a different matter as they tend to expect followers to abide by their word, but such are unlikely to make such a deal in the first place. Unless it was literally too good a deal to pass up. (IE, probably not containing a 'your soul is mine clause')

Which is why the D&D equivalent of Faustian deals are corruptive affairs designed to hook someone into making ever more questionable deals, and make them change their afterlife destination that way. The name of the game isn't to bargain for someone's soul, but to make them choose to give it up anyways.

[JellyPooga]

Are you sure you aren't substituting real world legends for D&D lore?

I'll admit I'm going off of 3ed lore (which is what I've come to think of as my personal "canon" for D&D...it's not where I started, but it's where I learned the most), in which there's somesuch about the Pact Infernal (or something like that), which is a contract between the Gods of Good and Asmodeus stating that (to paraphrase) any contracts a Devil makes will be honoured by the Gods, "natural order" be darned.

So, yes, assuming the deal doesn't explicitly sell your soul, you might get away with living the rest of your life honourably and get into your true afterlife...however, with the Pact Infernal in place, what hell-loving devil would let you get away with that? If, however, the contract you sign explicitly (or even only implicitly) hands over your soul to a devil, no amount of giving to the poor and helping old ladies across the street will get you out of it; not even the deity whose tenets you follow so faithfully can break such a contract without instigating full on inter-planar war between the upper and lower planes.

If you want out, you have to find the devil that holds your contract (usually not the one that did the deal with you in the first place, but rather a much more powerful one...usually at least an Archduke, if not the Ruler of a Layer) and either beat it into submission to release you (unlikely, seeing as you'll probably be on his home turf at the time), or offer a better deal in exchange...the terms of which will probably land you in hell for evilness anyway.

The whole thing about insidious deals, slippery slopes and all that is to get you to sign a contract in the first place. Once your names on the dotted line, you're going to have to do something extraordinary to get off that rollercoaster heading waaaay down south.

[Daishain]

snipodd, I was mostly going off of 3E knowledge as well, and I've never heard of a pact infernal. Huh, need to hit the books and try to clarify.

[JellyPooga]

odd, I was mostly going off of 3E knowledge as well, and I've never heard of a pact infernal. Huh, need to hit the books and try to clarify.

Check the "Fiendish Codex I". I think it's all in there. Alternatively, for an older (3.0) source, have a look at the "Book of Ultimate Evil"; it's got a lot of the same material.

[Shining Wrath]

I haven't come across the Pact Infernal or the like in 5e published material yet.

However, I do know Pit Fiends are smart. So if deals for souls are not enforceable, deals for souls will not be made. They are, after all, older than you. They weren't promoted from Ice Devil yesterday, you know.

Therefore, if a devil is willing to make a deal for your soul, then the gods are willing to let him collect. The fact that we're discussing such a deal means that the gods have reached some sort of arrangement with dark powers regarding the enforcement thereof. Exact details can, for now, vary from campaign to campaign since there's no 5e canon, and the exact details may be where the fun is.

[JellyPooga]

I haven't come across the Pact Infernal or the like in 5e published material yet.

It was fringe-lore material in 3.5, anyway. I'd be surprised if we see it at all in 5ed, even a ways down the line.


However, I do know Pit Fiends are smart. So if deals for souls are not enforceable, deals for souls will not be made. They are, after all, older than you. They weren't promoted from Ice Devil yesterday, you know.

Therefore, if a devil is willing to make a deal for your soul, then the gods are willing to let him collect. The fact that we're discussing such a deal means that the gods have reached some sort of arrangement with dark powers regarding the enforcement thereof. Exact details can, for now, vary from campaign to campaign since there's no 5e canon, and the exact details may be where the fun is.

This is pretty much the crux of the Pact Infernal, certainly and I agree that using the exact details is probably less fun than making up your own, just as making your own setting is often more fun than using a published one.

[Shining Wrath]

It was fringe-lore material in 3.5, anyway. I'd be surprised if we see it at all in 5ed, even a ways down the line.



This is pretty much the crux of the Pact Infernal, certainly and I agree that using the exact details is probably less fun than making up your own, just as making your own setting is often more fun than using a published one.

The players, of course, don't know the details of the agreement between the gods and the dark powers. Until one of them signs a contract and wants to avoid eternal damnation. That's when they learn about having to travel to each of the main outer planes and propitiate the ruler thereof with an appropriate gift.