Templates at Level One

[Pinkcrusade]

Greetings, Playground.

I am starting a new campaign soon and I had a question pertaining to early templates:

If I play a level one character who has the Vampire template (LA:+8), his ECL has now become nine in a group of level ones; whilst there are many pros, there is also the con of not leveling until the campaign significantly progresses. Is this technically legal due to him possessing a single class (let's just say Truenamer) and then a template, or is beginning level based upon ECL?

Thanks.

[Endarire]

It's legal if your GM says so.

And having 1 HD with a such high level adjustment is asking for pain.

[OldTrees1]

Beginning level is based on ECL.

Start with 1 level of (let's continue to say Truenamer) and then level up with this Vampire Template Class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). Alternate back and forth between class levels and levels of the template class as desired to show the growing vampiric power and the growing class power.

There are several template classes in the Savage Progressions articles and some more in the Libris Mortis splatbook.

[Crake]

I have an LA variant listed in my signature that works rather well for something like the vampire savage progression (I'm actually running a game right now using it for one of the characters who happens to be a savage progression vampire). It sounds like a much higher powered option upon first glance, but the playtesting I've done has been generally positive in outcome. While the "effective LA" is significantly reduced, it comes with the drawback of no "buyoff" method, so you will always be a little behind, but due to the nature of how the system works, as you gain more levels, the gap becomes less significant, the same way your template abilities become less significant and class levels become more important.

Give it a try if you'd like, and I'd love to hear how it worked out for you if your DM is permissive.

[ShurikVch]

If I play a level one character who has the Vampire template (LA:+8)IIRR, you need 5 HD to become Vampire - anyone with less will turn into Vampire Spawn

[Necroticplague]

Greetings, Playground.

I am starting a new campaign soon and I had a question pertaining to early templates:

If I play a level one character who has the Vampire template (LA:+8), his ECL has now become nine in a group of level ones; whilst there are many pros, there is also the con of not leveling until the campaign significantly progresses. Is this technically legal due to him possessing a single class (let's just say Truenamer) and then a template, or is beginning level based upon ECL?

Thanks.

Depends entirely on the DM. Most of the time, when people say they're starting at level X, they mean ECL X. However, there's nothing in the rules forcing everyone to be the same level or ECL, and a Vampire (Class Level1), is a level 1 character (however, for purposes of XP needed to level, is considered to be a level 9 character).

[ShaneMRoth]

...
whilst there are many pros, there is also the con of not leveling until the campaign significantly progresses.


That is not a Con, that is a Pro.

If the player character "gets" to play a 1st level [insert character class here] vampire, he "gets" stay a first level [insert character class here] vampire until the rest of the party comes at least close to an effective level of 9.

With his twelve hit points and his first level attack bonus and his first level saving throws.

And his wide array of Feat.

[Renen]

Sarcasm is quite hard to detect in text form, try putting it in blue text as it is a relatively well known way to indicate sarcasm here.

[Bad Wolf]

Sarcasm is quite hard to detect in text form, try putting it in blue text as it is a relatively well known way to indicate sarcasm here.

He might be serious.

[ShaneMRoth]

Sarcasm is quite hard to detect in text form, try putting it in blue text as it is a relatively well known way to indicate sarcasm here.


He might be serious.

I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.

[ben-zayb]

Sarcasm is quite hard to detect in text form, try putting it in blue text as it is a relatively well known way to indicate sarcasm here.Funny thing about that...
Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

[Renen]

Funny thing, im not saying he needs to or should have done something. I am simply suggesting a possible way to easier showcase his sarcasm as it is at times quite hard to read as I myself am not sure if he seriously believes something or is joking, due to his unique grasp of game rules.

[ben-zayb]

Funny thing, im not saying he needs to or should have done something. I am simply suggesting a possible way to easier showcase his sarcasm as it is at times quite hard to read as I myself am not sure if he seriously believes something or is joking, due to his unique grasp of game rules.Of course you're not. That's just a reminder in case you want to go down that rabbit hole.

[Necroticplague]

I am serious. And don't call me, Shirley.

How is not leveling up an advantage?

[ShaneMRoth]

How is not leveling up an advantage?

Oh, it's a pro for the DM... not the player.

[Red Fel]

If I play a level one character who has the Vampire template (LA:+8), his ECL has now become nine in a group of level ones; whilst there are many pros, there is also the con of not leveling until the campaign significantly progresses. Is this technically legal due to him possessing a single class (let's just say Truenamer) and then a template, or is beginning level based upon ECL?

The point, at least in theory, isn't that a character with an LA can't level until the rest of the party catches up; it's that, assuming the DM-set starting level is lower than his LA, he can't be played at all, absent savage progressions or similar means of spreading his power across multiple levels. If we're starting from the point of, "Why yes, you can play an ECL 9 character in a level 1 party," we've pretty much thrown away the concept of starting level, and are in the realm of DM fiat.

The reason is this. As has been mentioned, "starting level" means "starting ECL." Things like LA or RHD increase your ECL. If they increase it above the designated starting level, the problem isn't that the character can't level until the rest of the party catches up; the problem is that the character can't be played.

Short version: Not technically legal, if the DM sets a starting level.

As an aside, and as others have noted, even if your DM does allow you to effectively play a level 9 character in a level 1 party, you run into the fact that those 8 levels of LA aren't offering you a lot. Some nice vampire powers, true, but nine times out of ten, you would prefer to have class levels - and the attendant class abilities - instead of this insufferable block of monster dice. Unless your DM lets you take the Vampire Lord template, you're probably not going to enjoy being a Vampire very much, or for very long.

[eggynack]

Well, this has gotten silly. Clearly, if we're considering D&D as a strict zero sum game with the DM and player as competitors, the player being a powerful vampire is a pro for the player and a con for the DM, and said vampire reducing a lot in power really fast as others level is a pro for the DM and a con for the player. Saying that this factor is not a con, because it's a pro for the DM, doesn't really make that much sense in that context. Everything is both. I wouldn't say that I agree with that zero sum game model, but I would suspect that, in a vacuum, a player would definitely view having incredibly low amounts of power at high levels a con.

Anyway, yeah, this is not a great plan. Probably not rules legal in the first place, and even if it were, you're looking forward to a brief period of very high power, followed by an unending period of ridiculously low power. After all, it's not like a whatever 2/vampire 8 in a 10th level party is in that much better shape than a whatever 1/vampire 8 is in a 9th level party. Moreover, the sheer ridiculousness of the dominate ability at low levels means that you're inevitably going to put the DM in a situation where they either have to put together enemies that are immune by various means, or let his encounters get steam rolled with little in the way of player planning, and the other abilities are pretty similar to that in terms of swinginess (DR means low level enemies either do nothing or knock you out early on. Fast healing makes you practically unkillable unless the DM plans against it). Basically, what you're doing here means that there will be no place where your character is balanced. They'll consistently be either way too powerful or way too weak with no in-between. The rules are as they are for a reason.

[Bad Wolf]

Oh, it's a pro for the DM... not the player.

Well this explains a lot.