Question about Sword of the Arcane Order and Mystic Ranger

[Bad Wolf]

So you're effectively a ranger with Wizard and ranger casting? I realize you need a spellbook, but you don't need anything else?

[Dusk Eclipse]

As far as I'm aware; no, you are not missing anything.

SotAO Mystic Ranger is pretty much tier 0 up until level 10 (when their progression stops), add in wildshape ranger for even more OPness :smallbiggrin:

[Bad Wolf]

As far as I'm aware; no, you are not missing anything.

SotAO Mystic Ranger is pretty much tier 0 up until level 10 (when their progression stops), add in wildshape ranger for even more OPness :smallbiggrin:

Can you add it? It gets rid of your animal companion, so that doesn't seem possible.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wildshape Ranger trades the Combat Styles, not the Animal companion

Ranger

A ranger might forgo training in weapon combat in exchange for the ability to take animal form and move swiftly through the woodlands.

Gain
Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian).

Source: SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm)

[Bad Wolf]

Wildshape Ranger trades the Combat Styles, not the Animal companion

Huh. Guess the Duskblade is gonna be a ranger now.

[Curmudgeon]

SotAO Mystic Ranger is pretty much tier 0 up until level 10
Let's not exaggerate. Mystic Ranger needs WIS for their primary spellcasting, and Sword of the Arcane Order requires INT for any Wizard spells you cram into those spell slots instead of Ranger spells. You can't acquire any Wizard spells until you get the feat, which probably won't be before level 6. At that level (Mystic Ranger 6) a regular Wizard has more spells per day (about 1 more at each spell level), and a specialist Wizard 2 more each. If you want bonus spells those extra slots are a function of your WIS, not INT.

It's roughly a Tier 2 combo. DAD, similiar to the Favored Soul, but with fewer spells. And only at that power for just a few class levels.

[Gemini476]

Let's not exaggerate. Mystic Ranger needs WIS for their primary spellcasting, and Sword of the Arcane Order requires INT for any Wizard spells you cram into those spell slots instead of Ranger spells. You can't acquire any Wizard spells until you get the feat, which probably won't be before level 6. At that level (Mystic Ranger 6) a regular Wizard has more spells per day (about 1 more at each spell level), and a specialist Wizard 2 more each. If you want bonus spells those extra slots are a function of your WIS, not INT.

It's roughly a Tier 2 combo. DAD, similiar to the Favored Soul, but with fewer spells. And only at that power for just a few class levels.

Wouldn't being a prepared full caster bump it into Tier 1 just by default? In that level spread, that is - a 20th level Mystic Ranger isn't that impressive. As I understand it, the primary difference between Tier 1 and 2 is whether or not you can switch up your tricks to do a different gamebreaking thing tomorrow.


Then again, I guess that's the whole argument regarding the Spirit Shaman. Is it Tier 1 because it gets to prepare spells, or Tier 2 because... it's worse than the Druid, I guess?

[Curmudgeon]

Wouldn't being a prepared full caster bump it into Tier 1 just by default?
A class is in Tier 1 because it knows and can prepare enough spells to handle any situation. A Wizard 1 knows all the cantrips and 3 1st-level spells from their spell list: that's over 60 spells. The Mystic Ranger 6 who just acquired Sword of the Arcane Order knows 0 spells from that list. Adding any spell, including cantrips, requires a full day of study, 2 Spellcraft checks, and a full day of writing. The Mystic Ranger has to buy a spellbook, acquire access to the spells they want (buy scrolls), and pay for the special inks to record those spells. Just duplicating the spellbook a Wizard gets for free would take about 5 months and most of the level 6 Mystic Ranger's WbL. Getting access to all the spells that a Sorcerer (not a Wizard) knows would substantially exceed their WbL.

Tier 1 is Tier 1 because of the versatility of their spells. The Mystic Ranger starts out lacking spell versatility. They also have access to spells on the Sorcerer/Favored Soul schedule, but only about half as many spells per day. The FS gets 3 level 5 spells daily at class level 10; the MR gets 1 level 5 (their maximum) spell at class level 10.

Free spells (automatically known, with no payment required) is a significant factor in what makes a caster versatile. Sword of the Arcane Order gets nothing for free, so it's just not as versatile. Having enough spells prepared to cover whatever comes up is another big factor in versatility. MR gets only about half as many spell slots as the FS, so it can't be as versatile from that standpoint, either.

All in all, I stand by my assessment. Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order peaks at Tier 2, and only for about 4 levels.

[Bad Wolf]

What if they have a Wizard buddy who lets them use his spellbook?

[Curmudgeon]

What if they have a Wizard buddy who lets them use his spellbook?
That cuts down on the expenses maybe 10%. It's not much of a difference. The 2+ days, Spellcraft checks, and 100 gp/page are the big limiting factors. Plus, is their Wizard buddy really going to go without a spellbook for months?

[Taveena]

Isn't it a t1 by virtue of full-casting progression and the ability to break the game in any given way (up until its spells cap out?) Like the free spells are nice, but the tiers are mostly defined by potential more'n access. IIRC the example given on why there are tiers rather than best to worst is because in a campaign where the Wizard can't find any scrolls, the Cleric and Druid have a big edge, but the Wizard is still t1. Would the Wizard really be t2 if he didn't get 2 spells known per level?

[Curmudgeon]

Would the Wizard really be t2 if he didn't get 2 spells known per level?
We're not talking just 2 spells per level. If the Wizard didn't get 2 spells per level or 6,800 gp worth of spells at 1st level (100 gp for the spellbook, and 100 gp/page for 64 cantrips and 3 1st-level spells) that would make a big difference. Knowing only Read Magic and not being able to afford a spellbook with their 75 gp of starting capital would make the level 1 Wizard start around Tier 6.

[marphod]

That cuts down on the expenses maybe 10%. It's not much of a difference. The 2+ days, Spellcraft checks, and 100 gp/page are the big limiting factors. Plus, is their Wizard buddy really going to go without a spellbook for months?

I think you're assuming they are still copying.

As opposed to just borrowing (or stealing or taking off a corpse) a spellbook, and making a spellcraft check every time you memorize a spell. If you can get your spellcraft high enough to auto-pass (probably can take 10 on the check, although there might be a rule on that), you save all of the time and money.

[Taveena]

We're not talking just 2 spells per level. If the Wizard didn't get 2 spells per level or 6,800 gp worth of spells at 1st level (100 gp for the spellbook, and 100 gp/page for 64 cantrips and 3 1st-level spells) that would make a big difference. Knowing only Read Magic and not being able to afford a spellbook with their 75 gp of starting capital would make the level 1 Wizard start around Tier 6.


I mean... okay, fine, the Mystic Ranger doesn't get any free Wizard spells, but they get EVERY ranger spell, and at a much faster rate than a normal ranger. Aren't the 381 free spells known from being a Mystic Ranger, IN ADDITION to whatever Wizard spells they can find around, enough to pump them up that tier?

[Curmudgeon]

I think you're assuming they are still copying.

As opposed to just borrowing (or stealing or taking off a corpse) a spellbook, and making a spellcraft check every time you memorize a spell.
That doesn't work.
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks

A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured.
You've got to have your own spellbook with the spells already recorded in it in order to use some other Wizard spellbook. Now, you can use a borrowed or stolen spellbook instead of scrolls to create your own spellbook, but that merely cuts down your expenditures slightly (maybe 10%). It doesn't shorten the time required for writing the spells in your own notation.


I mean... okay, fine, the Mystic Ranger doesn't get any free Wizard spells, but they get EVERY ranger spell, and at a much faster rate than a normal ranger. Aren't the 381 free spells known from being a Mystic Ranger, IN ADDITION to whatever Wizard spells they can find around, enough to pump them up that tier?
It does bump them up. Mystic Ranger is about high Tier 3 instead of middle of Tier 4 for a regular Ranger. Sword of the Arcane Order is a noticeable boost. However, it also costs a feat that could have been used for some other power-enhancing purpose. As I've already pointed out, the feat itself only provides the potential to start benefiting from Wizard spellls — not the actuality. And the power boost is a tradeoff, because any use of Wizard spells is at the cost of access to those Ranger spells. Limited spell slots puts a ceiling on the character's versatility.