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diablodevil2
2015-07-20, 11:07 AM
Heya!

So, I had an awkward conversation with my GM on this a while back, as we're planning on a new campaign sometime in the future. In the current one, I'm playing a pretty overpowered tome fighter/barbarian, and I think he's pretty regretful that I was allowed those classes (they're not allowed in the upcoming game). Basically, he's concerned that I'm a power gamer, and he's very discerning about the things I ask for.

In the new game, I'm trying to stick to very close to core, basic rules, so that I'm not overpowered, and don't raise his concerns. My race is a custom one, but it's one he designed, so it's not all that crazy.


Kaori Attributes: +2 Strength, +4 Constitution, +2 Charisma, −4 Dexterity, −2 Intelligence
Type: Humanoid (Bovine)
Size: Medium
Speed: Base land speed for a Kaori is 30 feet.
Pack Mule: Kaori have large builds and heavy constitutions, enabled by carrying large resources around nigh constantly. The detriments of medium and heavy loads are each treated as if they were one load size lower.
Semi-foreign: Kaori are much more docile than the Kerani, and possess the capability to aptly pass an erred statement off as something inconsequentially vague, as if it were some foreign expression from a Kerani. This allows them to re-roll any Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidation check, once per day, if failed.
Automatic Languages: Common, Kerani. Bonus Languages: Any.
Favored Class: Druid, Cleric]

Anywho, I'm going to play a Druid, and when I was first looking at feats, I saw Natural Bond and was pretty into the idea.

As I understand it, it basically makes your later animal companions better. Like, when you hit level 4, you can get one of those that's at a 0 adjustment instead of a -3, or when you hit level 7, you can get a companion at a -3 adjustment as opposed to -6. What it does -not- do is allow you to get companions earlier, like a level of Beastmaster would (as I understand it, anyway).

However, he's adamant that NB is -only- for multiclassed, or Ranger-style classes. In that, he's saying it's only for offsetting the extra negative levels that they get for AC's.

His reasoning is that it states that it can't raise a druid's level above their character/player level. Whereas as I understand it, that only applies to the 'effective' level for companions above 4th level.

So, I guess my question is kind of 3-fold;

Which would be correct? Official ruling sources would be great.

Have any GM's found this to be overpowered? From what I hear in general, Druids are kinda strong to start with.

And if I can't use NB this way, is it worth taking a level of Beastmaster instead? That Skill Focus feat just feels like a kick in the gut to take that. You know, in addition to losing a level of Druid, slowing down my spells and wild shape. But, it would give me extra reflex. In short, I'm a little torn.

Thanks a bunch for your advice!

Darrin
2015-07-20, 11:32 AM
Which would be correct? Official ruling sources would be great.


Your GM is the official ruling source and he supersedes anything we can tell you in this forum.

(That being said, the Natural Bond "math" issue is something we're still arguing about. Which means there are at least two differing opinions in the RAW/RAI, there's no clear "consensus" on which side is correct, and of course the side that says your DM is right is clearly wrong IMHO because reasons.)



Have any GM's found this to be overpowered? From what I hear in general, Druids are kinda strong to start with.


Yeah... the issue with a druid's animal companion being overpowered is kinda like "gilding the lily". It's generally not the primary source of headaches from Treehuggers.



And if I can't use NB this way, is it worth taking a level of Beastmaster instead? That Skill Focus feat just feels like a kick in the gut to take that. You know, in addition to losing a level of Druid, slowing down my spells and wild shape. But, it would give me extra reflex. In short, I'm a little torn.


If you're concerned that the GM is going to come down on you for being a Druidzilla, then taking a non-Druid level somewhere might help with that.

On the gripping hand, it sounds like you need a longer awkward conversation with the GM where you each talk a little about your expectations and concerns about party balance/playing style.

Baroknik
2015-07-20, 11:42 AM
Heya!




Kaori Attributes: +2 Strength, +4 Constitution, +2 Charisma, −4 Dexterity, −2 Intelligence
Type: Humanoid (Bovine)
Size: Medium
Speed: Base land speed for a Kaori is 30 feet.
Pack Mule: Kaori have large builds and heavy constitutions, enabled by carrying large resources around nigh constantly. The detriments of medium and heavy loads are each treated as if they were one load size lower.
Semi-foreign: Kaori are much more docile than the Kerani, and possess the capability to aptly pass an erred statement off as something inconsequentially vague, as if it were some foreign expression from a Kerani. This allows them to re-roll any Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidation check, once per day, if failed.
Automatic Languages: Common, Kerani. Bonus Languages: Any.
Favored Class: Druid, Cleric]



What was said above about AC interactions with NB. However, I do want to point out that that race is definitely a minimal +1 LA as far as power is concerned.
Net positive ability modifer, fairly synergistic ability bonuses (STR/CON/cha in exchange for DEX/int) means you really are only taking a hit to DEX, which isn't a big deal for a lot of classes (especially druid since Wildshape), two unique racial abilities that are both extremely useful, and two favored classes instead of one all point to this race being stronger than average.

Not saying that you are crossing any lines (you know your GM better than we do), but using this race seems like it is definitely more optimized than using any core 0 LA race.

As far as trying to tone down power, it is not core only, but using the Shapeshifter and Spontaneous Rejuvenation alternate class features from PHB2 will tone down the power of two strong features of the Druid class (that is, Wildshape and Spontaneous SNA). You're still going to be wrecking face with your spell list and free fighter cohort, though.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2015-07-20, 11:42 AM
You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order. The rulebooks do not specifically state an order in which effects are applied, but the official FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a) specifically states that you can apply your own effects (not bonuses/penalties, but entire game mechanics effects) in whatever order you choose.

Druid is one of the strongest classes in the game, you could get Natural Spell at 6th and take Toughness for all of your other feats and still easily be the strongest character in the party. For how strong it makes your animal companion, it really depends on which companion you get. For example, if you get a Dire Eagle (RoS, Level -3) or a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3, Level -3), then your companion will easily contribute more in a given encounter than any melee character in the party, all by itself. If you get one of the weaker Level -3 companions, then Natural Bond will help bring it up to par with the stronger companion choices.

Don't bother with Beastmaster, if you're going to make a Druid then don't take any levels in anything but Druid. Even if you can't use Natural Bond to make up the drawback for having a stronger companion, it's still totally worth getting a Fleshraker dinosaur or a Dire Eagle.

diablodevil2
2015-07-20, 12:22 PM
Alrighty, I appreciate the input, guys!

I did see the Fleshraker, and as neat as it is, I kinda doubt I'll be getting it. I could be wrong, but I don't think we have dinosaurs in his setting. Plus I think it was a Medium, and I was kind of interested in getting a Large tiger/later Dire tiger so I could ride it around and stuff. I was originally planning on making the character blind, so it was a lot more necessary then, but I think I'm going back to being sighted.

I definitely appreciate the input on the Beastmaster level, too. It was really kinda making me waver a bit. I liked the idea of getting the Tiger sooner, but I'll just stick it out, maybe get something silly when I hit 4 eventually, or something. For a bit of fun, I'm going to make him a multilingual singer; kinda get Greensinger Initiate and Master Linguist at level 1, and put points into Perform each level.

But bluh bluh! Thanks again!

Bronk
2015-07-20, 12:33 PM
So, I had an awkward conversation with my GM on this a while back...

Kaori Attributes: +2 Strength, +4 Constitution, +2 Charisma, −4 Dexterity, −2 Intelligence...

Favored Class: Druid, Cleric...

As I understand it, it basically makes your later animal companions better. Like, when you hit level 4, you can get one of those that's at a 0 adjustment instead of a -3, or when you hit level 7, you can get a companion at a -3 adjustment as opposed to -6. What it does -not- do is allow you to get companions earlier, like a level of Beastmaster would (as I understand it, anyway).

However, he's adamant that NB is -only- for multiclassed, or Ranger-style classes. In that, he's saying it's only for offsetting the extra negative levels that they get for AC's...

His reasoning is that it states that it can't raise a druid's level above their character/player level. Whereas as I understand it, that only applies to the 'effective' level for companions above 4th level.

I agree. You are right and your DM is wrong. Not that he's going to change his ruling because of it though! But still.

The text of the Natural Bond feat in Complete Adventurer page 111 is pretty clear. Add three to your effective druid level for determining bonuses to your animal companion, etcetera, with instructions to refer to Players Handbook page 36 for what that means. Flip to that page, choose an alternate AC, determine your effective druid level, add three, done.

That page of the PHB does mention that you can stack your ranger levels with your druid levels to determine the bonuses for your AC, but all that does is imply that other classes don't stack and has nothing to do with the alternate companion list. He's reading too much into that.