Whos the better Shadow Mage?

[Th3N3xtGuy]

Never played, but I've been looking at Pathfinder. Who is more effective overall with non-3rd party?
Shadow Bloodline Sorcerer or Wizard(Shadowcaster)+ Illusion Specialist(Shadow)

[Extra Anchovies]

Wizard, because it's a prepared spellcaster.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

Personal preference or is there a reason besides more spells per day?

[Extra Anchovies]

because it's a prepared spellcaster.

That's why. Being able to do all the things that the sorcerer does, and then being able to turn around and do an entirely different set of stuff the next day, is what makes the wizard better than the sorcerer.

Of course, a human sorcerer who takes full advantage of the FCB can pick up a number of spells that would not be viable on a sorcerer with only the standard number of spells known, and they have more tactical flexibility.

Either one is completely able to break a game if you want to, so which one is stronger doesn't entirely matter. Pick the one that you'd prefer. Wizards have more flexibility between days (because they can prepare different spells) and sorcerers have more flexibility within each day (because they can use any of their spell slots for any of their spells known of that level or lower).

Relative spells per day doesn't matter. By level 4 you have enough spells to get through the day and by level 7 you'll be hard pressed to actually run out of spells unless you waste them, regardless of class.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

That's why. Being able to do all the things that the sorcerer does, and then being able to turn around and do an entirely different set of stuff the next day, is what makes the wizard better than the sorcerer.

Of course, a human sorcerer who takes full advantage of the FCB can pick up a number of spells that would not be viable on a sorcerer with only the standard number of spells known, and they have more tactical flexibility.

Either one is completely able to break a game if you want to, so which one is stronger doesn't entirely matter. Pick the one that you'd prefer. Wizards have more flexibility between days (because they can prepare different spells) and sorcerers have more flexibility within each day (because they can use any of their spell slots for any of their spells known of that level or lower).

Relative spells per day doesn't matter. By level 4 you have enough spells to get through the day and by level 7 you'll be hard pressed to actually run out of spells unless you waste them, regardless of class.

Okay thanks for the response Extra Anchovies

[Ssalarn]

Never played, but I've been looking at Pathfinder. Who is more effective overall with non-3rd party?
Shadow Bloodline Sorcerer or Wizard(Shadowcaster)+ Illusion Specialist(Shadow)

Shadow Bloodline Sorcerer has a few cool tricks, but my biggest issue is the same one I have with all Bloodlines in general- you get your "iconic" spells a level after you gain access to that level of spells, which is two full levels behind where a similarly focused wizard is probably picking up the same spells.


For the Wizard, where is the Shadowcaster archetype from? All I was able to find under that name were feats and traits. Regardless, I'd already be inclined to say a Wizard with the Shadow subschool, so assuming that changes made by the Shadowcaster archetype are net positive or don't substantially change the class for the worse in some way, that's probably the direction I'd go.

[Nifft]

For the Wizard, where is the Shadowcaster archetype from?

Usually people talk about the Shadowcraft Mage in Races of Stone.

[Ssalarn]

Usually people talk about the Shadowcraft Mage in Races of Stone.
Yeah, but this thread had a Pathfinder tag on it...

[Psyren]

Yeah, I couldn't find the "shadow wizard" being spoken of here either.

I'd personally go with Sorcerer simply because shadow spells are versatile enough that the sorcerer's spammability becomes even more of an asset while the low spells known liability is less pronounced.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

Shadow Bloodline Sorcerer has a few cool tricks, but my biggest issue is the same one I have with all Bloodlines in general- you get your "iconic" spells a level after you gain access to that level of spells, which is two full levels behind where a similarly focused wizard is probably picking up the same spells.


For the Wizard, where is the Shadowcaster archetype from? All I was able to find under that name were feats and traits. Regardless, I'd already be inclined to say a Wizard with the Shadow subschool, so assuming that changes made by the Shadowcaster archetype are net positive or don't substantially change the class for the worse in some way, that's probably the direction I'd go.

According to the site its a official pathfinder archetype. The Book is the Convergent Paths:Students of Arcanum Archetypes http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/shadowcaster

[Ssalarn]

According to the site its a official pathfinder archetype. The Book is the Convergent Paths:Students of Arcanum Archetypes http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/shadowcaster

Ah, it's actually from the Inner Sea Magic campaign setting book. That Convergent Paths book isn't the source book, it's an advertisement.

In that case, I'd definitely do the wizard. It's 10th level Shadowy Specialization ability is literally the same thing as the Sorcerer's 15th level Deeper Shadows ability, only twice as good. Combined with the Shadow subschool, you've got a great set of class features and earlier access to more powerful and thematic spells. You're not just getting the better spells sooner, you also "power up" your shadow spells 5 levels earlier and twice as much, so even if the Sorcerer still has slightly better non-spell class features, the wizard is just getting so much more out of his spells.

[Psyren]

Yeah changing my vote to the Wizard - I was looking at the wrong Sorcerer bloodline, the Paizo Shadow Bloodline is far worse.

[Harmelyo]

You may also want to take a look at the following feat : Solid Shadows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/solid-shadows-metamagic) :mitd:

Shadow-mancy is back at full strength! Not yet 150% but still...

[Th3N3xtGuy]

You may also want to take a look at the following feat : Solid Shadows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/solid-shadows-metamagic) :mitd:

Shadow-mancy is back at full strength! Not yet 150% but still...

Any other nice feats like this?

[Spore]

Yeah changing my vote to the Wizard - I was looking at the wrong Sorcerer bloodline, the Paizo Shadow Bloodline is far worse.

I agree but that's assuming the character is built into a vacuum and never played. Why?

A sight based caster has to synergize with its group or severely hamper them (throw out castings of Darkvision or have a group entirely compromised of darkvision users). Then if you don't like to choose your race depending on your class and its needed attributes, the Sorcerer pulls closer on Charisma races.

Thirdly the play style of your group can put a stop to your well planned wizardy preparation. If they choose to rush most objectives with little to no investigation or if you yourself prefer a smoother overall gameplay rather than a miniscule preparing of singular spells, then maybe the Sorcerer is for you.

I've had a Wizard be annoyed by the fact that he only ever has 1-2 spell for every combat encounter. He prepares well and his spells are used on great impact but he seems like someone who would also enjoy just using suboptimal spells but every round. Or a witch who routinely gets no info so her combat spells are screwed and she can only use her hexes (because she didn't expect two fights for the day, having prepared maximum utility).

[skypse]

Shadow Caller (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-fetchling/shadow-caller-summoner-fetchling)

You become the shadow itself, you cast like a sorcerer but if you are not playing the Unchained version you have a much stronger spell list on much earlier levels and you can always grab a metamagic or two (like tenebrous spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/tenebrous-spell-metamagic)) to fit your purpose thematically.

[Psyren]

I agree but that's assuming the character is built into a vacuum and never played. Why?

A sight based caster has to synergize with its group or severely hamper them (throw out castings of Darkvision or have a group entirely compromised of darkvision users). Then if you don't like to choose your race depending on your class and its needed attributes, the Sorcerer pulls closer on Charisma races.

Thirdly the play style of your group can put a stop to your well planned wizardy preparation. If they choose to rush most objectives with little to no investigation or if you yourself prefer a smoother overall gameplay rather than a miniscule preparing of singular spells, then maybe the Sorcerer is for you.

I've had a Wizard be annoyed by the fact that he only ever has 1-2 spell for every combat encounter. He prepares well and his spells are used on great impact but he seems like someone who would also enjoy just using suboptimal spells but every round. Or a witch who routinely gets no info so her combat spells are screwed and she can only use her hexes (because she didn't expect two fights for the day, having prepared maximum utility).

Well yeah, it is assuming a vacuum. Obviously if a Cha-based caster makes more sense for that particular group/campaign then the sorc would be preferable.