Are fireballs real?

[Renen]

So... once someone casts a fireball on you... is it an actual ball of fire that flies to you? Is it an unattended object that can be messed with by other things like readied actions to cast some other spell if a flaming ball is within a few feet?

[Draconium]

I believe the spell description describes it as a small glowing bead that flies out to wherever you command it to, and then explodes in a 20' radius.

[Nifft]

So... once someone casts a fireball on you... is it an actual ball of fire that flies to you? Is it an unattended object that can be messed with by other things like readied actions to cast some other spell if a flaming ball is within a few feet? It's as real as the elves that it burns.

The SRD says this:

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

[Flickerdart]

So... once someone casts a fireball on you... is it an actual ball of fire that flies to you? Is it an unattended object that can be messed with by other things like readied actions to cast some other spell if a flaming ball is within a few feet?
The spell's description is explicit - it's a bead that the caster shoots, and the bead explodes as soon as it collides with something (usually the target).

[Renen]

So, any spell that can mess around with an unattended object w/o a save would totally work? :smallbiggrin:

http://treasure.diylol.com/uploads/post/image/462996/resized_lizard-meme-generator-aww-yiss-fc8115.jpg

[Sacrieur]

Objects get saves too iirc from an earlier thread about evasion.

[Draconium]

Probably not, unless it would also work on something like a bullet that just got shot at you.

Seriously, it's a bead of pure energy. Messing with it would probably just trigger the explosion. Delayed Blast Fireball, on the other hand, might be a different story. Might.

[Nifft]

The only strategy which I'm sure would work is to Ready an action to create a wall of some sort (wall of force, for example, perhaps from that shield in the MIC).

It's an expensive strategy, though, since actions are not cheap.

[Renen]

Time hop the fireball? :D

[Draconium]

Well, you also have to keep in mind, that description is basically fluff. If the DM feels you're abusing RAW, it can easily be refluffed into "I point, it explodes." Then again, I would like to see Time Hop used on a Fireball. As long as you remember to get clear of the radius. :smallbiggrin: I'm not sure if that's even possible, though.

[Alent]

Time hop the fireball? :D

I'm marveling at the fact that considering the projectile an unattended object lets you sleight of hand it at DC 10.

The next time I play 3.5, I am totally going to try to claim I have several castings of fireball safely stored in my Handy Haversack.

[hamishspence]

Maybe that's how Necklace of Fireballs is made - you sleight of hand the bead, and use Sovereign Glue to stick it to a tiny hook, which you then use to hang it from the necklace.

[PaucaTerrorem]

I'm marveling at the fact that considering the projectile an unattended object lets you sleight of hand it at DC 10.

The next time I play 3.5, I am totally going to try to claim I have several castings of fireball safely stored in my Handy Haversack.

Just ready an action to dodge flying books if you go through with this.

[Renen]

Maybe that's how Necklace of Fireballs is made - you sleight of hand the bead, and use Sovereign Glue to stick it to a tiny hook, which you then use to hang it from the necklace.

they are all coated with thin layer of quintessence too!

[Flickerdart]

So, any spell that can mess around with an unattended object w/o a save would totally work? :smallbiggrin:
No. It's not an object, it's a spell. The only thing that can affect the bead is a solid object, which makes it explode.

[hamishspence]

And a hand is a "material body" I suppose.

[Keltest]

And a hand is a "material body" I suppose.

Indeed, though there is an argument to be made that you could perhaps use telekinesis on it. Maybe. Probably not.

[darksolitaire]

Fireball isn't actually real fire since it's evocation. Orb of Fire, on the other hand, is real fire since it's conjuration. Fireball can be stopped by magic resistance because it's magic. Orb of Fire can't be stopped by magic resistance because once cast it's actual, burny fire. Or something, I don't know. I should be sleeping.

[Draconium]

Indeed, though there is an argument to be made that you could perhaps use telekinesis on it. Maybe. Probably not.

Perhaps you could Mage Hand (it probably weighs nothing) it into something where it wouldn't be able to collide with anything, and keep it "suspended" and unmoving, and then Mage hand it out when you need it again? If the caster had a specific spot in mind for it to go off, it would then attempt to move to that spot, exploding when striking a material object of exceeding the caster's range limit (assuming sleeping it suspended had no affect on it's technical range). Unlikely? Perhaps. But if I was DMing, and my players found a way to pull this off, I wouldn't stop them. Heck, I'd reward them for creativity. :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

You cannot handle a fireball bead. When you try to do so, it explodes. Half of the point of delayed blast fireball is that its beads can be handled.

[Alent]

And a hand is a "material body" I suppose.

There is a fine tradition of catching (unsharp) things in a bag of holding at standard sleight of hand DCs. :smallwink: Your table may vary, terms and conditions may apply, offer not valid in Wisconsin.

You could probably also claim a glove palm covered in quintessence would achieve the same result of catching the fireball safely in stasis. (see necklace of fireballs reference above.)

TelekinesisControl Object seems the more entertaining solution, tho'. Take control of the fireball, make it use a slam attack that causes it to explode.

Edit: remembered wrong power.

[Sacrieur]

You cannot handle a fireball bead. When you try to do so, it explodes. Half of the point of delayed blast fireball is that its beads can be handled.

But can you teleport it?

[Draconium]

You cannot handle a fireball bead. When you try to do so, it explodes. Half of the point of delayed blast fireball is that its beads can be handled.

The SRD simply says the only reason it explodes early would be coming into contact with a material object of solid barrier - I don't think telekinesis counts as either. As long as it's all right with the DM, which is a case-by-case basis, I don't see why that wouldn't work.

[Andezzar]

The spell's description is explicit - it's a bead that the caster shoots, and the bead explodes as soon as it collides with something (usually the target).It also explodes when it reaches its intended destination. Nothing prevents you from designating an empty point in space. In fact that is how area spells are supposed to be placed.
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst.


The only strategy which I'm sure would work is to Ready an action to create a wall of some sort (wall of force, for example, perhaps from that shield in the MIC).

It's an expensive strategy, though, since actions are not cheap.If you can get close enough you could do an invisible wall of ice (hemispherical form) even without a readied action.

[Flickerdart]

But can you teleport it?

No. It isn't an object.


The SRD simply says the only reason it explodes early would be coming into contact with a material object of solid barrier - I don't think telekinesis counts as either. As long as it's all right with the DM, which is a case-by-case basis, I don't see why that wouldn't work.

It's not an object. Telekinesis can't do anything to it. "As long as it's all right with the DM" is a meaningless statement, because it's true of literally anything.

[Keltest]

There is a fine tradition of catching (unsharp) things in a bag of holding at standard sleight of hand DCs. :smallwink: Your table may vary, terms and conditions may apply, offer not valid in Wisconsin.

You could probably also claim a glove palm covered in quintessence would achieve the same result of catching the fireball safely in stasis. (see necklace of fireballs reference above.)

TelekinesisControl Object seems the more entertaining solution, tho'. Take control of the fireball, make it use a slam attack that causes it to explode.

Edit: remembered wrong power.

Hmm. Would the fireball then continue into the astral pocket continually until it hit the hypothetical edge and explode? If you turned the bag inside out, would the fireball shoot out and start flying in whatever direction the original point of detonation was?

[Draconium]

No. It isn't an object.



It's not an object. Telekinesis can't do anything to it. "As long as it's all right with the DM" is a meaningless statement, because it's true of literally anything.

Well, technically, it could be considered to be one. My reasoning is thus.

Delayed Blast Fireball is described as being identical to Fireball, except as noted. The only really difference between their bead forms is that the caster can choose to purposefully delay the explosion. This means, since it won't explode immediately, that it can be thrown, albeit with a slight chance of it exploding in your hand.

You can use this reasoning to assume that the only reason you can't do this with a regular Fireball bead is that there is no way to delay the explosion. And if something can be picked up and thrown, and therefore treated as an object (as you can't throw something that doesn't physically exist), telekinesis and affect it. Therefore, DBF, and by extent, Fireball, can be affected this way.

A bit of a stretch, I know, but it is at least plausible enough that you could argue for it.

Also, I use "as long as DM approves" even when I don't have to, as the opposite holds true as well - even if you come up with the perfect plan, the DM can say it doesn't work if s/he thinks there is an implausible element to it.

[PaucaTerrorem]

There is a fine tradition of catching (unsharp) things in a bag of holding at standard sleight of hand DCs.

I know any DM I've played with would rule that if a sharp object can pierce the inside of a bag of holding, then a fireball would explode inside it.

Now this could be useful if you kept an empty one around.

[Draconium]

Also, in regards to my last post, that's simply my interpretation of how it works. If you have a different interpretation, that's fine. I am simply explaining how I could see it being done in a game I'd run.

[Flickerdart]

Well, technically, it could be considered to be one.
Can you catch a scorching ray and hit your enemies with it? What about duct-taping a lightning bolt to your fists? Neither is different from fireball - they all produce energy effects that deal damage.

[Draconium]

Can you catch a scorching ray and hit your enemies with it? What about duct-taping a lightning bolt to your fists? Neither is different from fireball - they all produce energy effects that deal damage.

Well, considering that they both blast the energy out directly, as opposed the the Fireball, which condenses its energy into a focal point the will not affect anything until it reaches a certain destination, or is acted upon by an outside force, therefore meaning the transfer of energy is different and dependant on certain conditions... No.

[Nifft]

I gotta say, the idea of using time hop on a fireball seed seems creative and I want it to work.

But I also feel like it would screw up game balance something fierce.

[hamishspence]

Can you catch a scorching ray and hit your enemies with it? What about duct-taping a lightning bolt to your fists? Neither is different from fireball - they all produce energy effects that deal damage.

Those two are not "beads" though.

That said, maybe the term is just used for convenience - instead of "a beadlike ball of energy."

[Draconium]

They're not "beads" though.

That said, maybe the term is just used for convenience - instead of "a beadlike ball of energy."

I think it's actually described as "a glowing, pea-sized bead." Not bead-like ball of energy. Just bead.

You could be right, of course, but it is never specified as such.

[Renen]

I gotta say, the idea of using time hop on a fireball seed seems creative and I want it to work.

But I also feel like it would screw up game balance something fierce.

Nah, still requires an action, that could have been spent to cast Ice assassin

[Nifft]

They're not "beads" though.

That said, maybe the term is just used for convenience - instead of "a beadlike ball of energy."

The SRD text is quoted on the first page of this thread. It does say "pea-sized bead".


Nah, still requires an action, that could have been spent to cast Ice assassin Sure, but with time hop, that's an action before combat.

It's a way to emulate delayed blast fireball, which is clearly much more powerful than regular fireball, because look at the spell level difference.

Not even blue-text-ing here. It's a legitimate tactical benefit.

Probably.

[Xervous]

On a side note what constitutes a material body such that would be sufficient to stop a fireball? Does water just straight up stop it, if not how much... corn starch could you pour into the water until it stopped a fireball?

[hamishspence]

I think it's actually described as "a glowing, pea-sized bead." Not bead-like ball of energy. Just bead.

You could be right, of course, but it is never specified as such.

Edited for clarity - I was replying to Flickerdart.

[Flickerdart]

On a side note what constitutes a material body such that would be sufficient to stop a fireball? Does water just straight up stop it, if not how much... corn starch could you pour into the water until it stopped a fireball?
We actually have rules on this, as well:
"Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described."

So the answer is: it depends entirely on the caster's Spellcraft check, and not on the viscosity of the water (although RAW, it only works in water and not liquid so as soon as you have enough additives that it doesn't count as just water, it's anybody's guess). Yet another argument in favor of "the fireball bead is not an object."

[Keltest]

We actually have rules on this, as well:
"Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described."

So the answer is: it depends entirely on the caster's Spellcraft check, and not on the viscosity of the water (although RAW, it only works in water and not liquid so as soon as you have enough additives that it doesn't count as just water, it's anybody's guess). Yet another argument in favor of "the fireball bead is not an object."

Does that mean that casting a fireball in a thunderstorm has a non-0 chance of it just blowing up in the caster's face?

I am totally going to houserule that the next time the druid in my 1st edition game starts using Call Lightning to make the rest of the group look weak and unhelpful.

[Flickerdart]

Does that mean that casting a fireball in a thunderstorm has a non-0 chance of it just blowing up in the caster's face?
If you're in a thunderstorm severe enough to count as being underwater, you have bigger problems than that.

[icefractal]

It sure looks like an object in how it reacts with things. I don't think the "it's just flavor" argument has legs. Fireball specifically has mechanics for the bead, such as exploding early and needing an attack roll to get through tight gaps. It's an unusual mechanic, in that no other AoE works in such a way, but that doesn't mean we can just ignore it.

I'm pretty sure sleight of hand would set it off though - hands are a surface. Using TK - perhaps not. Given its instantaneous duration however, wouldn't it just explode at the point the original action resolves (considering that the readied actions interrupted it)?

[Nifft]

Does that mean that casting a fireball in a thunderstorm has a non-0 chance of it just blowing up in the caster's face?

I am totally going to houserule that the next time the druid in my 1st edition game starts using Call Lightning to make the rest of the group look weak and unhelpful.

That's hilarious.

If you felt like modeling the interaction of a fireball seed and raindrops, maybe assign a low % to the impact chance, and roll for each square traversed.

That will make casting fireball in a rainstorm tedious enough that its use will be discouraged.

[Draconium]

It sure looks like an object in how it reacts with things. I don't think the "it's just flavor" argument has legs. Fireball specifically has mechanics for the bead, such as exploding early and needing an attack roll to get through tight gaps. It's an unusual mechanic, in that no other AoE works in such a way, but that doesn't mean we can just ignore it.

I'm pretty sure sleight of hand would set it off though - hands are a surface. Using TK - perhaps not. Given its instantaneous duration however, wouldn't it just explode at the point the original action resolves (considering that the readied actions interrupted it)?

RAW state that the Fireball explodes when it reaches its destination, or strikes a material/solid object. TK probably wouldn't set it off, because it is neither. As for its duration... possibly. It's obviously described as instantaneous because it wasn't meant to be interrupted in a way that would keep it from going off, such as through TK.

[Keltest]

If you're in a thunderstorm severe enough to count as being underwater, you have bigger problems than that.

While I am uncertain of the exact measurements of the volume of peas and raindrops, I think that raindrops can potentially be large enough to completely encompass a fireball pea should one strike it.

Quick, someone go out in a thunderstorm and spit peas in the rain to see if they get hit by raindrops!

[PaucaTerrorem]

The mass of a pea out-weighs the mass of a raindrop.

[Keltest]

The mass of a pea out-weighs the mass of a raindrop.

Its not a question of mass, its a question of volume. A ton of Uranium and a ton of feathers are going to have the same mass but a radically different volume. Can there be enough water in a rain droplet to completely cover a fireball pea and thus have it be underwater? Or is it solid enough to count as a physical object and thus explode the fireball?

[Alent]

Hmm. Would the fireball then continue into the astral pocket continually until it hit the hypothetical edge and explode? If you turned the bag inside out, would the fireball shoot out and start flying in whatever direction the original point of detonation was?


I know any DM I've played with would rule that if a sharp object can pierce the inside of a bag of holding, then a fireball would explode inside it.

Now this could be useful if you kept an empty one around.

Odd, I can't find a rule I know comes up semi-frequently about spell effects being suspended in a bag of holding. Wondering if it was a 2nd edition hold over, misunderstanding, or a grandfathered houserule from somewhere, now. :smallconfused:

I was going to say catching the bag of holding should suspend it then let you turn it inside out to release the effect away from you, but I'm not seeing any rules text to make that work. I'll just assume I bushwacked myself with a 2e rule/houserule until I have reason to believe otherwise.

[Draconium]

The mass of a pea out-weighs the mass of a raindrop.

But I bet the mass of a raindrop is greater than the mass of a Fireball bead, which probably has little to no mass.

I think the question here would be "Could a raindrop envelop a pea-sized object?"

[Renen]

The SRD text is quoted on the first page of this thread. It does say "pea-sized bead".

Sure, but with time hop, that's an action before combat.

It's a way to emulate delayed blast fireball, which is clearly much more powerful than regular fireball, because look at the spell level difference.

Not even blue-text-ing here. It's a legitimate tactical benefit.

Probably.

But you gotta remember that this only works if you time hop a fireball without enemies seeing, and then have them unsuspectingly walk into the place where the fireball got time-hopped from at the exact round it is to come back.

[Nifft]

But you gotta remember that this only works if you time hop a fireball without enemies seeing, and then have them unsuspectingly walk into the place where the fireball got time-hopped from at the exact round it is to come back.

That's all true.

But, that all applies to delayed blast fireball, which is presumably four levels higher than fireball for a reason.

Not particularly saying that I agree with those reasons, but whenever a magical interaction allows two low-level effects to emulate a much higher-level effect, that makes my cheese detector start to ping.

[Renen]

Two low level effects from different err... systems I guess it is.
Meaning you cant just have a wizard cast both. And without shenanigans its hard to do it by yourself anyways.

[Elkad]

A Necklace of Fireballs bead is just a tiny demi-plane with a crunchy shell (from our side). The plane loops endlessly on itself (like a tesseract) so the fireball just flies endlessly, never leaving the center despite NI movement.

Break the outside and the demi-plane collapses, ejecting the fireball back onto this plane.

[eggynack]

Fireball is instantaneous. From a mechanical perspective, once you designate a place for the bead to go, it's there, assuming a lack of objects intervening that were there before you cast the spell. There's no time to sleight of hand the bead, or use telekinesis on it. By the time you start trying to apply your telekinesis to the bead, it's already 500 feet away and exploding a goblin. Whether the bead is an object or not is irrelevant, as a result. If the fireball ever was an object, tangible and open to interaction, it stops being one by the time you even think about using that interaction.

Edit: It doesn't even matter if you have some weird telekinetic field, where everything that enters the field is under your control, and said field existed before the casting. The spell specifies that, unless there's a solid object in the way, the fireball explodes at the designated point. You can therefore segment interfering objects into two categories. You have solid objects, which would automatically cause the fireball to explode, and would thus not allow interaction, and you have, I suppose, forces and intangibles, which just can't impact the fireball's point of explosion by the rules.

[glitterbaby]

There is a fine tradition of catching (unsharp) things in a bag of holding at standard sleight of hand DCs. :smallwink: Your table may vary, terms and conditions may apply, offer not valid in Wisconsin.

You could probably also claim a glove palm covered in quintessence would achieve the same result of catching the fireball safely in stasis. (see necklace of fireballs reference above.)

TelekinesisControl Object seems the more entertaining solution, tho'. Take control of the fireball, make it use a slam attack that causes it to explode.

Edit: remembered wrong power.


So you're telling me I have to move out of my state to catch a fireball in a bag of holding? I'll just go play with my Green Bay Packers football and eat cheese before drinking from my bubbler.

[PaucaTerrorem]

But I bet the mass of a raindrop is greater than the mass of a Fireball bead, which probably has little to no mass.

I think the question here would be "Could a raindrop envelop a pea-sized object?"

It's not a question of if it could envelope it, but if it can stop it. And velocity plays a part as well.

[PaucaTerrorem]

So you're telling me I have to move out of my state to catch a fireball in a bag of holding? I'll just go play with my Green Bay Packers football and eat cheese before drinking from my bubbler.

Just make sure; if you're speaking harshly of the Green Bay Packers, than sir, we have serious issues that cannot be dealt with in a forum.

[Alent]

Just make sure; if you're speaking harshly of the Green Bay Packers, than sir, we have serious issues that cannot be dealt with in a forum.

I believe he's snarking at my Offer void where Prohibited (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OfferVoidInNebraska) joke. Wisconsin's restrictions on gambling affecting tabletop games were on my mind at the time. Also, warning, TV tropes link.

[Extra Anchovies]

What the thread title made me think of:

http://i.imgur.com/wtbbSAz.jpg

Note: Not an actual Jaden Smith quote. I made this one myself, here's the original image (http://spplw.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/jaden-6.jpg).

[Telok]

Ring Gates (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#ringGates). You probably can't shoot the bead back at the caster. I am sure that you can out the exit gate behind the caster and get a self-hit.

Quintessence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm). Would it be possible to catch Fireball beads in a bucket of quintessence?

[Sith_Happens]

What the thread title made me think of:

http://i.imgur.com/wtbbSAz.jpg

Note: Not an actual Jaden Smith quote. I made this one myself, here's the original image (http://spplw.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/jaden-6.jpg).

Darn you, I came to this thread specifically to post that.:smalltongue:

[Sliver]

I'm not so sure about the water droplets argument. The spellcraft check is required for the fireball to be effective underwater. Presumably, a failed check means the spell fizzles, not that the water surface blocks it and it detonates above the water. I could get an argument that a caster will need to pass several spellcaster checks for his fireball to reach the destination instead of going out in a passing droplet of water, but to explode prematurely? Water isn't a solid object, and a failed spellcraft check doesn't change its nature.


Orb of Fire can't be stopped by magic resistance because once cast it's actual, burny fire. Or something, I don't know. I should be sleeping.

Actually, Orb of Fire is acid that happens to deal fire damage. Just like an Orb of Sound is acid that happens to deal sonic damage. All the non acid orb spells act like orb of acid, except that they deal different types of damage. The orb itself isn't altered.


An orb of acid about 2 inches across shoots from your palm at its target, dealing 1d8 points of acid damage.


This spell functions like orb of acid, except that it deals fire damage.

I dunno why, but I love this fact.

[erok0809]

Actually, Orb of Fire is acid that happens to deal fire damage. Just like an Orb of Sound is acid that happens to deal sonic damage. All the non acid orb spells act like orb of acid, except that they deal different types of damage. The orb itself isn't altered.


I wish that worked for Orb of Force, which doesn't have the same wording. Still can't really wrap my head around that one.

[Sliver]

Yeah, nonmagical forceful acid makes more sense than a nonmagical ball of force...

Nonmagical loud acid makes more sense than the nonmagical orb of sound, and its fluff does not help at all.

[spectralphoenix]

RAW state that the Fireball explodes when it reaches its destination, or strikes a material/solid object. TK probably wouldn't set it off, because it is neither. As for its duration... possibly. It's obviously described as instantaneous because it wasn't meant to be interrupted in a way that would keep it from going off, such as through TK.


A Necklace of Fireballs bead is just a tiny demi-plane with a crunchy shell (from our side). The plane loops endlessly on itself (like a tesseract) so the fireball just flies endlessly, never leaving the center despite NI movement.

Break the outside and the demi-plane collapses, ejecting the fireball back onto this plane.

The caster specifies the distance the fireball explodes at. I'm pretty sure that means a fireball that gets redirected would still explode after traveling a certain distance.

In a more relatable example, if I shoot a fireball "100 feet that-a-way" and it travels fifty feet before entering a gate, I would expect it to travel another fifty feet and detonate, not decide it had lost its target and keep going forever.

[Sagetim]

So... once someone casts a fireball on you... is it an actual ball of fire that flies to you? Is it an unattended object that can be messed with by other things like readied actions to cast some other spell if a flaming ball is within a few feet?

going by the description, which characterizes a fireball as a small red bead that shoots out of your fingertips and at the target location before expanding instantly to it's burst of fire size, yes it is technically an object that exists for a limited period of time and could possibly be intercepted before it's target location. In 3.0 I recall that it mentioned that you could aim a fireball through small spaces and that you might need to make a dex check to properly aim it. I can't recall if that was retained in 3.5.

In second edition a fireball expanded to a specified cubic volume of space and would expand to fill that space, even if it meant running down hallways or out windows or what have you. And I think many people interpreted that to mean that you could condense a fireball by, for example, shooting one into a room that closed off immediately after the bead went in to concentrate extra damage dice to anyone hit by it within. That may have even been specified in the 2nd edition description of fireball in the player's handbook.

For 3.5, however, someone might rule that because the duration is instantaneous, you cannot actually intercept a fireball bead. I would consider them wrong, from a visual imagination standpoint, but I'm sure they could bang on about rules this and rules that until they felt they were right and you were wrong and that was that.

Bear in mind that a 3.5 fireball is not explosive. It does not have a concussive force and does not make any sound in particular when it goes off. It just fills an area with fire very very quickly when the bead reaches it's target location.

As an interaction with time stop: As far as I'm concerned, once the bead leaves your fingertip, it stops in the air nearby because it has rejoined the normal time stream and is effectively suspended while time stop is in effect. You can blame Baldur's Gate 2 and the awesomeness of dropping a bunch of fireballs while time was stopped for that. I'm pretty sure, rules as written, time stop does not specify that effects that leave your person wait to be resolved when time resumes.

As I started actually reading all the posts that came before mine I saw someone mention quintessence. If you could find a way to apply it without causing the bead to explode, you would have a preserved fireball waiting to happen...you know, like when someone rubs the quintessence off and causes it to explode. You would probably need to make a really high reflex save to time manifesting quintessence right to manifest it Around a fireball to remove it from the time stream and thus prevent it from exploding immediately.

TK/Magehand: If you could convince your DM that the telekinetic force of your will upon a fireball bead counted as it encountering a solid object, then you could argue for making a reflex save to time your telekinetic grabby hands to grope the fireball so it has a premature detonation before reaching it's intended target.

Raindrops are not solid, they are liquid. Remember, there's three states of matter- Solid, Liquid, Gas. And sometimes mysterious extra ones that I don't care to remember because I'm not a physicist.

[eggynack]

Telekinesis doesn't do anything to fireball, because it's not a solid object, or if it is a solid object, then the fireball explodes. Fireball has only two modes. It can reach its destination, or it can explode prematurely against a solid object. By the rules, there is no third mode where you get to keep the fireball as a pet.

[Sliver]

Like a living spell fireball?

[eggynack]

That does sound pretty awesome. But no, living spell fireballs are not allowed by the rules, on the basis of that argument I just made. I am so sorry.

[Sagetim]

Telekinesis doesn't do anything to fireball, because it's not a solid object, or if it is a solid object, then the fireball explodes. Fireball has only two modes. It can reach its destination, or it can explode prematurely against a solid object. By the rules, there is no third mode where you get to keep the fireball as a pet.

That's where the time halting properties of quintessence could come into play. However, unless the player was particularly clever, I would figure that the fireball would likely detonate during most/any capture attempt.

Maybe if you used time stop, cast a fireball, then moved around while it was suspended in the air and manifested quintessence into being around it, you could store a fireball for later like that. However...that's a really high level solution and only works for a cerebremancer (generally speaking).

[eggynack]

That's where the time halting properties of quintessence could come into play. However, unless the player was particularly clever, I would figure that the fireball would likely detonate during most/any capture attempt.

Maybe if you used time stop, cast a fireball, then moved around while it was suspended in the air and manifested quintessence into being around it, you could store a fireball for later like that. However...that's a really high level solution and only works for a cerebremancer (generally speaking).
I just don't think it works like that, even then. Fireball has a very simple manner of operation that, while it may not fit into our way of thinking, absolutely informs how it interacts with the world around it. So, say you cast time stop, and then cast fireball targeted somewhere besides an enemy. If we think of the time stop as not a solid object, then fireball would just go to its targeted area and explode. If it is a solid object, then fireball would just explode in mid-air, I guess. If you somehow manifest quintessence around fireball, then the same logic would apply. If it's solid, then explosion, and if it's not solid, then distant explosion. If you ever cast a standard fireball that doesn't immediately explode in some location, then you're not following the rules, because the spell just directly states that it explodes where you dictate, unless you have a solid object, in which case it explodes elsewhere. Explosion or explosion.

[Sagetim]

I just don't think it works like that, even then. Fireball has a very simple manner of operation that, while it may not fit into our way of thinking, absolutely informs how it interacts with the world around it. So, say you cast time stop, and then cast fireball targeted somewhere besides an enemy. If we think of the time stop as not a solid object, then fireball would just go to its targeted area and explode. If it is a solid object, then fireball would just explode in mid-air, I guess. If you somehow manifest quintessence around fireball, then the same logic would apply. If it's solid, then explosion, and if it's not solid, then distant explosion. If you ever cast a standard fireball that doesn't immediately explode in some location, then you're not following the rules, because the spell just directly states that it explodes where you dictate, unless you have a solid object, in which case it explodes elsewhere. Explosion or explosion.

Right. I get that it's supposed to be that simple. But isn't DND supposed to be a storytelling game? So, in the interest of telling a story, at what moment would a fireball explode when encased in quintessence? Quintessence halts time. Now, a fireball bead travels along a designated path. That takes time. When it hits an object, there is some amount of time, however small, for it to register that and explode. So if you capture it in quintessence, which removes it from the effects of time, then it cannot register anything, including any contact with solids that it is currently in, until at least some of the quintessence is scraped off. Alternatively, the explosion takes time, however little, which is why you have a reflex save to avoid the spell. So if the fireball bead starts to expand into it's area of fire on contact with the quintessence, but is still wrapped in quintessence, then you now have an imminent expansion of fire wrapped in a time negating substance. Better not let any of it rub off until you want that fire to expand.

[eggynack]

I dunno. I tend to take spells on a particularly, "As it says," basis, because to do otherwise would be to subject the world of magic to reality and physics, and down that path lies madness. There's not much difference between fireball and any other instantaneous spell, at least those that work on a roughly similar basis. You may as well claim there's a transmission time to mass heal, meaning that you can store away those heals for later use. It might seem from the outside like a ludicrously different claim, but on a base mechanical level, the two spells have comparable operations.

[Sagetim]

I dunno. I tend to take spells on a particularly, "As it says," basis, because to do otherwise would be to subject the world of magic to reality and physics, and down that path lies madness. There's not much difference between fireball and any other instantaneous spell, at least those that work on a roughly similar basis. You may as well claim there's a transmission time to mass heal, meaning that you can store away those heals for later use. It might seem from the outside like a ludicrously different claim, but on a base mechanical level, the two spells have comparable operations.

Well, to be fair, mass heal is subject to a few factors that fireball isn't.
1) It doesn't describe a mechanism of transfer. There is no bead to catch, so to speak.
2) It's divine magic, you're basically clapping your hands and asking your god to fix some people.
2) There's no bead to catch, that's all. I suppose if you dumped enough quintessence on the cleric when they were in mid cast you could wash it off them later for a mass heal on demand?

[Psyren]

But can you teleport it?

Sure, just reach out and touch the bead.

I'll stand over here while you give it a try.


Like a living spell fireball?

Living Spell Fireball is not only allowed, there is even a sample Living Spell Fireball Glitterdust in MM3 called Glitterfire. It's a very fabulous way to die.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not so sure about the water droplets argument. The spellcraft check is required for the fireball to be effective underwater. Presumably, a failed check means the spell fizzles, not that the water surface blocks it and it detonates above the water.
The surface of a body of water blocks Line of Effect even if you pass the check. The check is only for underwater-to-underwater shooting.

[Segev]

I'd bypass the quintessence question about detonating the fireball bead by instead using it with delayed blast fireball.

Set it for 2 rounds, encase in quintessence on round 1. Hand a bunch of these to unseen servants whom you order to carry them to within 20 feet of your target and then scrape off the quintessence.

[Brookshw]

Living Spell Fireball is not only allowed, there is even a sample Living Spell Fireball Glitterdust in MM3 called Glitterfire. It's a very fabulous way to die.

Best glitterbomb ever.

[Tvtyrant]

Raindrops are not solid, they are liquid. Remember, there's three states of matter- Solid, Liquid, Gas. And sometimes mysterious extra ones that I don't care to remember because I'm not a physicist.

#4 is plasma, where the electrons and protons stop talking to each other.

[Extra Anchovies]

Sure, just reach out and touch the bead.

I'll stand over here while you give it a try.

Apply Reach (or Ocular) Spell to Teleport Object?

[Renen]

Darn you, I came to this thread specifically to post that.:smalltongue:

I WANTED to post that, but decided it's too easy :D
Glad someone else noticed the similarity

[glitterbaby]

Just make sure; if you're speaking harshly of the Green Bay Packers, than sir, we have serious issues that cannot be dealt with in a forum.

I'm actually from Wisconsin, I was completely serious.

[atemu1234]

Fireball isn't actually real fire since it's evocation. Orb of Fire, on the other hand, is real fire since it's conjuration. Fireball can be stopped by magic resistance because it's magic. Orb of Fire can't be stopped by magic resistance because once cast it's actual, burny fire. Or something, I don't know. I should be sleeping.

So should I, but you don't see that stopping me.

[Sagetim]

I'd bypass the quintessence question about detonating the fireball bead by instead using it with delayed blast fireball.

Set it for 2 rounds, encase in quintessence on round 1. Hand a bunch of these to unseen servants whom you order to carry them to within 20 feet of your target and then scrape off the quintessence.

Yeah, but that's taking the easy way out. Shouldn't you be having more fun and danger by doing it at lower level? :P

[Xervous]

I WANTED to post that, but decided it's too easy :D
Glad someone else noticed the similarity

Same, same... ended up leaving it out of the whole cornstarch water thing.

[atemu1234]

Is this the real life, is this just fantasy...

[Draconium]

Is this the real life, is this just fantasy...

Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality...

[Andezzar]

Mama, just killed a man
Put a finger 'gainst his head
Pulled my fireball, now we're dead

[JBPuffin]

Goodbye, everybody; life had juuust beguuuuuuuun
And Now I've Gone and Thrown It Alll Awaaaay...
(Why is this happening? :smallconfused: I may have missed something)

Didn't want to break the thread :P. Anyway, I'd personally let someone catch the bead, sort of like if you caught a grenade. Magic does weird things sometimes :smallwink:. RAW, though, there's no way in the Nine Hells you can even try to stop that fireball with such shenanigans.

[Lapsed Pacifist]

What I've learned from this thread: Don't cast Fireball in a hailstorm.

[Segev]

Yeah, but that's taking the easy way out. Shouldn't you be having more fun and danger by doing it at lower level? :P

I'm not sure the rules support it. One could attempt to do something with it by putting up enough quintessence that you cannot miss firing "through" it and aiming the fireball for just below its surface. When it hits the non-solid substance, it sinks in and freezes in time. You'd be risking a lot to cut just the bead and its small lump of quintessence out, though, because that could count as "scraping it off" and cause it to dissolve, releasing the bead before you even move it.

I suppose though that the rules specify the bead is a "thing," given that it can detonate "early" if it hits something.

So MAYBE you could do it with sufficient quintessence?

[Sagetim]

I'm not sure the rules support it. One could attempt to do something with it by putting up enough quintessence that you cannot miss firing "through" it and aiming the fireball for just below its surface. When it hits the non-solid substance, it sinks in and freezes in time. You'd be risking a lot to cut just the bead and its small lump of quintessence out, though, because that could count as "scraping it off" and cause it to dissolve, releasing the bead before you even move it.

I suppose though that the rules specify the bead is a "thing," given that it can detonate "early" if it hits something.

So MAYBE you could do it with sufficient quintessence?

Or you just have a bucket with one manifesting's worth of quintessence in it and hold that steady while the wizard aims his fireball towards the other side of said bucket. Then you use telekinesis on your now time locked fireball bead and glue it to the end of an arrow or bolt. Then you can have a few of these sitting on your belt so that you can cast the Bolt cantrip (or whatever it's named) to launch said bolt at a target. When it hits, it deals normal bolt damage and the quintessence is scraped off, triggering the fireball.

Or you give said arrows to the party sniper and they fire them at extreme range to hit the 10 ac of particular squares and drop fireballs like artillery.

[Extra Anchovies]

How does fireball work with the four ten-foot cubes form of Sculpt Spell? Is it four projectiles, one for each cube? Is it one projectile that detonates and fills the cubes but no other spaces with fire? If the latter is true, where do you aim the projectile?

For the record, I'm under the impression that the 10-foot cubes don't need to be in contact with each other. That is correct, right?


Or you just have a bucket with one manifesting's worth of quintessence in it and hold that steady while the wizard aims his fireball towards the other side of said bucket. Then you use telekinesis on your now time locked fireball bead

How are you getting the non-delayed-blast Fireball to touch the quintessence without going off? It's pretty clear that the fireball detonates immediately when it contacts an object, so the quintessence wouldn't take effect prior to detonation. You'd need Delay Spell, really.

[Flickerdart]

When it hits, it deals normal bolt damage and the quintessence is scraped off, triggering the fireball.
Why would it do that?

[eggynack]

Well, to be fair, mass heal is subject to a few factors that fireball isn't.
1) It doesn't describe a mechanism of transfer. There is no bead to catch, so to speak.

2) There's no bead to catch, that's all. I suppose if you dumped enough quintessence on the cleric when they were in mid cast you could wash it off them later for a mass heal on demand?
There may not be an explicit bead, but I think that mass heal has about as much claim to an object in transit as fireball. If an instantaneous spell can occupy intervening space, and if it can be an object that can be stopped in non-specified ways, then mass heal, as a spell with the same source and defined outer bounds, would have a similar claim. Better yet, consider something like scorching ray, which does have explicit claim to some transit system, or perhaps glitterdust, which technically has duration, but whose duration of impact is implied to be instantaneous (as the duration is associated with the effect, rather than how long it takes to get from point A to point B). If you folks want to chat about various cool things you could do if caging fireballs were possible, then go ahead, cause it seems fun, but from a strict rules perspective I don't think it could be said to work.

[Segev]

There may not be an explicit bead, but I think that mass heal has about as much claim to an object in transit as fireball. If an instantaneous spell can occupy intervening space, and if it can be an object that can be stopped in non-specified ways, then mass heal, as a spell with the same source and defined outer bounds, would have a similar claim. Better yet, consider something like scorching ray, which does have explicit claim to some transit system, or perhaps glitterdust, which technically has duration, but whose duration of impact is implied to be instantaneous (as the duration is associated with the effect, rather than how long it takes to get from point A to point B). If you folks want to chat about various cool things you could do if caging fireballs were possible, then go ahead, cause it seems fun, but from a strict rules perspective I don't think it could be said to work.

I'm afraid that the differences you're trying to hand-wave away are actually extremely relevant. Particularly since the bead is described as specifically having to be aimed through small openings or it detonates against a surface early. Mass heal has no such thing. There is nothing to suggest a projectile's existence in mass heal, unlike fireball.

[eggynack]

I'm afraid that the differences you're trying to hand-wave away are actually extremely relevant. Particularly since the bead is described as specifically having to be aimed through small openings or it detonates against a surface early. Mass heal has no such thing. There is nothing to suggest a projectile's existence in mass heal, unlike fireball.
There does exist that phrase with respect to fireball. However, in neither case does there exist a line indicating some holding interaction with regard to either spell. You're trying to construct some third case of that type, but it doesn't exist in the base state, and the existence of the second case for fireball doesn't necessarily lead to that third case in either case. In any case, the differences or similarities don't matter all that much. That was only constructing a secondary reductio ad absurdum argument, rather than acting as the main pillar for the claim. The rules don't support fireball doing this, whether or not the rules support mass heal doing it.

[Segev]

I'm not sure I follow. The only reason there's even the slightest possibility this could work for "holding" the bead is because it's got a defined behavior and form, and quintessence specifically stops time from passing for anything caught within it. Technically, you'd be holding a glob of quintessence, anyway, not the bead.

[Renen]

How can fireball explosion be real is quintessence isn't real?

[Segev]

How can fireball explosion be real is quintessence isn't real?

There are several leaps of logic I'm missing to get here, I think.

Forgive me if I sound sarcastic or snide; I mean to sound neither. But: Who said the quintessence isn't real?

[eggynack]

I'm not sure I follow. The only reason there's even the slightest possibility this could work for "holding" the bead is because it's got a defined behavior and form, and quintessence specifically stops time from passing for anything caught within it. Technically, you'd be holding a glob of quintessence, anyway, not the bead.
It has the same quantity of defined behavior and form with regards to being stopped without exploding does as mass heal does, which is to say none. Thinking on it more, I think that mass snake's swiftness would work as a better comparison spell, as it works in an untargeted burst which just hits every allied creature without discrimination beyond that. It has a defined start point, and a defined end point, and as the logic goes, some transit between those points that can be impacted by some sort of thing.

Anyway, the overall point is that this just isn't a possible behavior for fireball. The text says, "... and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point." In other words, fireball only asks if there's a solid object, and if there is then it explodes against that object, and if there isn't it explodes where it's supposed to. There is only room for the fireball to explode, and quintessence can't stop that from happening, because if quintessence isn't solid then the fireball explicitly just goes to its destination. The only way to stop a fireball is by exploding it early.

[Flickerdart]

Quintessence stops time, but fireball doesn't take time. It goes through space but it's an instantaneous effect.


There are several leaps of logic I'm missing to get here, I think.

Forgive me if I sound sarcastic or snide; I mean to sound neither. But: Who said the quintessence isn't real?
It's a meme.

[Sagetim]

Why would it do that?

To be a ****.


Oh, wait, you said why would IT do that. Right, well, we're operating on the assumption that a fireball bead is a bead like object for the duration of it's existence. So if it's covered in quintessence, then time ceases for it. When quintessence is scraped off an object, that part of the object is not longer affected by the time stopping properties of quintessence. For living beings and larger objects this can mean that it would start taking damage for having part of it be in normal time stream while the rest is frozen. For the fireball bead, it means that the part that was scraped is now exposed, and has touched against an object. Which means that once the fireball bead in quintessence gets scraped, such as by being shot into someone on the tip of an arrow, it will detonate.

For this to work you need a DM willing to accept the idea that quintessence ceases the flow of time around something at or right before contact, and even then you would need to find a way to encase a fireball bead in the stuff all at once to prevent it from detonating. Which means that a delayed blast fireball, even set for round 2, would be way easier to work with than trying to do this with your average level 3 fireball.



How can fireball explosion be real is quintessence isn't real?

When two wizards love each other very much they sometimes collaborate in a very special way. At the end of their collaboration they show the world what their love for each other has borne. This is how fireballs make their way into the world. Each one is very special, and must be handled properly or they will consume themselves and everyone nearby as their flaming behavior is released.

[Flickerdart]

Which means that once the fireball bead in quintessence gets scraped, such as by being shot into someone on the tip of an arrow, it will detonate.
Go dunk an arrowhead in honey, shoot it at something, and then let me know how much honey the arrow "scraped off."

[Sagetim]

Go dunk an arrowhead in honey, shoot it at something, and then let me know how much honey the arrow "scraped off."

Even if I had a bow, I'd rather not waste the honey.