Need Help Deciding Assassin Build

[Dralnu]

Joining a new campaign as a player. Initially thought about playing a wizard, but my group already has two wizards. We need damage. I like the concept of Assassin so I want to go with that. The starting level hasn't been decided but I think it will be level 3, so I want to be effective at levels 3 onward. This group has a reputation of being consistent so we may even get to levels 10+ but I highly doubt I'll ever taste level 15+.

Build ideas:

Assassin 3+
Assassin all the way, no multiclass. It seems reasonable to me, though after level 8 or so it's not too exciting. Steady damage progression with utility. Not sure if dual wield or crossbow.


Elf or Human Assassin 3 / Battlemaster 6

DEX build. High DEX helps with going early in combat for Assassinate. Fighter gives Archery, Action Surge, Maneuvers (superiority dice doubled during crits), Extra Attack. Might as well stick for 6th level's ASI.

Feats: Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, pump DEX to 20, then take Alert feat somewhere down the road.

RP: Harboiled wild west dude, a "gunslinger" except replace the pistol with a crossbow.


Half Orc Assassin 3 / Champion 5 / Barbarian 1

STR build, dual wield. Champion grants expanded crit range, Half Orc adds an extra damage dice on crits. Barbarian gives Rage, making him tanky and adding +2 damage to each swing.

Feats: Dual Wielder, pump STR, take Alert down the road.

RP: Being a mule and all the social baggage that comes with it.


Not sure about other options.

[pibby]

I'm generally not a fan of multiclass builds since they generally sacrifice good at will damage for situational nova damage. If nova is what you're looking for I'd go straight Vengeance Paladin. The class features after assassinate are good for bypassing rolls so you got that going for you if you decide to not multiclass.

Personally I would go with Arcane Trickster since they will be able to get access to Haste at level 14. And even if I never got to that point I'd still enjoy using spells that don't rely or "selectively" rely on spell save DCs like illusion spells, Shield, and Jump.

[Dralnu]

Straight Vengeance Paladin is certainly a good choice for burst but I already have one in a different campaign and wanted to try something different.

Arcane Trickster's Haste at level 14 isn't a huge plus for me because that's a long way away, possibly never going to even happen. The rest of the subclass doesn't seem too great.

Do I really lose much at-will damage by multiclassing? I'm not sure but I haven't done a thorough number crunch.

Human Assassin 3 / Battlemaster 2 (bonus feat Crossbow Expert)
6d6 + 6 regular attack sequence

vs.

Human Battlemaster 5 (Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter)
6d6 + 9 regular attack plus up to +30 more damage from Sharpshooter

Okay, Sharpshooter is a pretty big difference. Yeesh, that feat...

However! One level later (Assassin 4) or two (BM 4) picks up Sharpshooter and the damage is much closer. By level 8 the Assassin / BM even has the advantage in damage, I think, until level 11 when straight Fighter gets the third attack.

[coredump]

You really need to decide what you want to be able to do. Archer. Dual, great weapon.... Do you like crossbows? Are any skills important? Etc etc. you are leaving it really wide open right now. Oh, and what stats will dictate multi classing....

Personally, my archer assassin is heading towards Rogue5 Ranger5 with longbow.

[Millface]

I'm generally not a fan of multiclass builds since they generally sacrifice good at will damage for situational nova damage. If nova is what you're looking for I'd go straight Vengeance Paladin. The class features after assassinate are good for bypassing rolls so you got that going for you if you decide to not multiclass.

Personally I would go with Arcane Trickster since they will be able to get access to Haste at level 14. And even if I never got to that point I'd still enjoy using spells that don't rely or "selectively" rely on spell save DCs like illusion spells, Shield, and Jump.


I kind of feel like Rogue was created as a dip. Sneak damage just doesn't keep up with other damage builds in the Paladin/Fighter/Sorcerer vein.

Battlemaster to 6 then assassin X is kind of a no brainer. Fighting style/2 ASIs/Extra Attack/Action Surge/Tactics... there's way too much there not to do it. Don't get me wrong, Rogues can still be fun straight class, but this is one of the best examples of a time when multiclass is easy and obviously beneficial instead of a convoluted nova/sustain trade off.

[b4ndito]

Monk 6, Rogue (Assassin) 14.

[Dralnu]

Shadow Monk / Assassin does sound cool but you can't sneak attack off unarmed strikes, which is really lame. Otherwise I'd seriously consider it.

Yeah, maybe just starting Fighter 6 and figuring things out from there would be better. I don't think you lose much being Fighter 6 / Assassin 3 vs. Fighter 9.


You really need to decide what you want to be able to do. Archer. Dual, great weapon.... Do you like crossbows? Are any skills important? Etc etc. you are leaving it really wide open right now. Oh, and what stats will dictate multi classing....

Personally, my archer assassin is heading towards Rogue5 Ranger5 with longbow.

I have two concepts in my head: a hardboiled western gunslinger ranged character, and that half-orc that dices people up in melee (plus throwing knives I suppose).

Is there any advantage of being an archer over crossbows? Superior range I guess?

[coredump]

Shadow Monk / Assassin does sound cool but you can't sneak attack off unarmed strikes, which is really lame. Otherwise I'd seriously consider it. Sure, but you can still use weapons with the initial Attacks.




I have two concepts in my head: a hardboiled western gunslinger ranged character, and that half-orc that dices people up in melee (plus throwing knives I suppose). Keep in mind that the rules do not allow dual wielding handbows... but your DM might. You can use the bonus attack with the same handbow as the initial attacks, so the concept still works.
For that, I think I would go fighter, probably EK, but any of the 3 will work. You need the extra feats.


Is there any advantage of being an archer over crossbows? Superior range I guess?Well, for me it was largely the aesthetic, but it also means longer range, and one less feat required.
The less need for a feat meant I could go ranger instead of fighter and grab Hunter's Mark and Collosus slayer also.

[Citan]

Joining a new campaign as a player. Initially thought about playing a wizard, but my group already has two wizards. We need damage. I like the concept of Assassin so I want to go with that. The starting level hasn't been decided but I think it will be level 3, so I want to be effective at levels 3 onward. This group has a reputation of being consistent so we may even get to levels 10+ but I highly doubt I'll ever taste level 15+.

- Assassin 3+
- Elf or Human Assassin 3 / Battlemaster 6
- Half Orc Assassin 3 / Champion 5 / Barbarian 1
Not sure about other options.
Hi, how are you? :)

The three builds you consider are nice indeed, although I'd personally prefer the 2nd one among them:
- much less SA damage
- no extra Expertise (bad if you need to be great at several roles in your party)
But
+ Extra attack (means extra chance to SA)
+ Manoeuvers synergizing in every way with your Rogue abilities, to ensure the success at the moment you most need it.
+ As good in Range as in Melee.
+ As good damage as STR build AFAIK build with SharpShooter + Crossbow Expert, dual hand-crossbows.
+ Absolutely no MAD (only DEX and CON to pump).

Other good suggestions for lvl 10/11 max.
1. Monk
Already suggested before me I believe. Synergizes well with Rogue, extra well if you went melee, although it brings you some MAD (13 WIS and DEX).

Any Way
- MAD: WIS 13 required.
- Step of the Wind/Patient Defense: totally redundant with Cunning Action, worse even since consumes Ki.
+ Unarmored Defense: from passable (WIS 13) to totally awesome (WIS 20).
+ Unarmored Movement: extra mobility for you to move in and out of danger.
+ Free Unarmed Strike as bonus action (you can use finesse weapon so no problem).
+ Deflect missiles: extra protection against ranged weapon attacks.
+ Slow Fall (lvl 4): good accessory to your mobility, although dispensable.
+ Extra attack (lvl5): always good to have extra chance to SA.
+ Stunning Strike (lvl5): stun with Ki, extra good for you: stun with first Attack, pretty sure to get your SA then.
+ Magic fist (lvl6): at least your punches will overcome any resistance to physical damage.
+ Evasion: no damage from DEX-dealing spells if you succeed on saving throws.

Open Hand
The best for only 3-level dips: you get free chances to prone with Flurry of Blows. Problem is, it will be AFTER your usual attack, so you cannot prone first then SA to maximize damage. Still, very useful for the two other effects helping you disengage while dealing damage.
So still useful with only 3 ki (obviously better with 5 :)). Lvl 6 benefit is useless for this build (18 HP per long rest, meh).

Shadow
Requires lvl 4 or 6 to be really useful.
At 4, you can cast Darkness/Darkvision/Pass Without Trace/ Silence 2 times per short rest. Very good for an Assassin to prepare his execution.
Lvl 6 is GREAT for you, providing free teleport as a bonus action in dim light/darkness: useful in many ways, only requires you to be smart and create the conditions of dim light/darkness (which you can do 3 times per short rest now).

[Elements]
Only passable at lvl6, because it's very Ki-consuming and you can get at least two good attack Disciplines: Fangs of Fire Snake (extra reach and damage) and Water whip ("come to me so I can hit you").
Big problem here is, it basically works against your SA since requires unarmed strikes and consumes action.
So not a good choice.

SUMMARY
Basically, Monk can be good either for a low level dip (lvl3, Open Hand) or a higher dip (lvl 6, Shadow), but only for high level builds, because it delays very much your SA progression.

For a lvl15 character max, both are good.
For a lvl10 character, this multiclass option is strictly inferior to Battlemaster unless specific concept or fluff.

TL;DR: Correct to great choice depending on the character max lvl. For a lvl10 build, go Open Hand 3 for a melee Rogue, or just dip one level if you have very high WIS for Defense. Apart from that, stay away: you'd need to get at least lvl6 to be worth it, meaning very low SA.

2. Warlock
Warlock also brings its own MAD requirement (CHA), but can be extremely good for a low level dip.

Patrons (lvl1)
Fey: situational ability, nice spell to get advantage (Faerie Fire). Requires high CHA.
Fiend: very good 1st level ability for you (THP on kill) and nice spells (Command), but require high CHA.
GOO: best spell for you (better than Command because create OA AND damage, perfect for a striker) and telepathy is great in RP without needing high CHA.

Any Pact (lvl 1-2)
- CHA 13+ requirement (but most of class benefits for you won't depend on CHA so it's okay)
+ Hex: extra damage AND disadvantage on ability checks.
+ Armor of Agathys: THP and extra damage (requires lvl2 slots to begin being useful though)
+ Arms of Hadar: perfect to escape a surround (needs high CHA).
+ Cantrips: Eldricht Blast obviously (high CHA), but also Mage Hand, Minor Illusion and Friends can be very good.
+ Invocations: Agonizing Blast is correct for melee Rogue if high CHA, useless otherwise. Much better options are free Mage Armor (13+DEX AC), Persuasion/Intimidation proficiency, free Disguise Self or Devil's Sight (seeing in any condition of light, even magical).

Pacts (lvl3)
Tome: only if you want to get some nice additional cantrips (Guidance? Thorn Whip?) AND be able to cast lvl1+2 rituals. Otherwise, the worst option.
Blade: good to have magic weapon early, and being able to throw it and retrieve it easily for melee Rogues. Still doesn't bring much to you compared to...
Chain: get the perfect companion for your assassinations: keep it close for magic resistance or get THE best scout of the game (with Voice of the Master invocation).

Spellcasting (lvl3)
You can learn and retrain at the same time, so 2 utility spells (or combat if high CHA) among many lvl2 goodies. Perfect for your spell slots. :)

Higher levels
Not recommended for you since you are a fighter before anything else, unless you really want to grab some good spells (Fly, Gaseous Form, Hypnotic Pattern) for a specific build.

SUMMARY
One of the greatest choices available. 80% benefits for 2lvl, 100% benefits for lvl3 dip, without necessarily requiring high CHA.

TL;DR: One of the best classes to multiclass into for your concept, bringing defense, offense and utility for only 2-3 levels. Overall, dipping lvl3 Chain would be the best option.



Keep in mind that the rules do not allow dual wielding handbows... but your DM might. You can use the bonus attack with the same handbow as the initial attacks, so the concept still works.

Agree on your comments about Ranger dip, can be a pretty good choice too for a Rogue (works with low WIS).
Disagree on the quoted part though. I don't see anywhere a statement forbidding to wield two hand-crossbows, and Crossbow Expert bypasses loading restrictions.

[coredump]

Agree on your comments about Ranger dip, can be a pretty good choice too for a Rogue (works with low WIS).
Disagree on the quoted part though. I don't see anywhere a statement forbidding to wield two hand-crossbows, and Crossbow Expert bypasses loading restrictions.

You should check out the PHB Errata. Explicity states you need a free hand to load the handbow.

[dropbear8mybaby]

You should check out the PHB Errata. Explicity states you need a free hand to load the handbow.

The irony is that it's actually better than dual-wielding and yet people still complain that they can't dual-wield.

[Citan]

You should check out the PHB Errata. Explicity states you need a free hand to load the handbow.
Dang. Didn't know about this.


The irony is that it's actually better than dual-wielding and yet people still complain that they can't dual-wield.
Well, it certainly doesn't change anything for any optimized build with Crossbow Expert, but that means you cannot go "medieval pistolero (double bolts)" just for the sheer fun of it (unless firearms are in the campaign). With that said, it wouldn't prevent "piratish" characters.

Also, I'd certainly houserule that dual hand-crossbows is allowed while under the effect of Swift Quiver ("Each time you make an attack, your quiver m agically replaces the piece of ammunition you used").

Again, sure it's a logical errata, and doesn't hamper the Crossbow Expert builds. But since they were basically the only ones concerned they could have left it alone for the sake of fluff... Or did I miss some cheesy builds?

[Easy_Lee]

Assassin is a good archetype, but I question whether one is needed in a party with two wizards. Knowing nothing else about your party, I caution against rogue because rogues play best with melee bros. Two wizards won't help you get your SA each round, most likely. You could pull an iron scoundrel build or a similar BM / Assassin, but your party will have a significant weakness to wisdom saves. While a failed strength or con save isn't usually game over, wisdom is a really important one for the party to have.

I suggest monk. Both shadow and open hand play very well with casters, able to stun targets, maneuver around the battlefield, provide good damage, and do things at will that casters can't do easily. You don't need to rely on a melee bro to get most of your damage, and you'll be able to pass saves that the others can't.

Fun trick with monk: put two casters in a bag of holding and have them concentrate on invisibility + fly. You'll dodge all the traps with your monk evasion, your mobility is top tier, and you can run through an entire dungeon with none able to catch you or even see you in most cases. Combine with either pass without trace from shadow or sanctuary from open hand and you're golden.

[Dralnu]

We're set to play on the 27th. We start at 3rd level. This is a group that I played 4e with as the DM, and two of them are bringing over their 4e characters: both wizards, one player doesn't bother doing much research on spells and will probably opt for Magic Missiles or whatever quickly comes to mind, the other is probably going to focus on crowd control and damage when it's a good option.

The third players loves going for support. He played a cleric in 4e and focused on healing, buffing, debuffing. I can only imagine he will pick cleric this time around too. The fourth loves being the tank and in 4e enjoyed the sword and board Fighter. These guys haven't made their characters yet though.

I think no dual wielding hand crossbows is a little lame, though it doesn't totally ruin the aesthetic for me because my character could be gunslinger trope of the "quickest draw in the West," replacing the revolver (which you had your empty hand quickly cocking the hammer after each shot) with the crossbow (now you're quickly reloading instead). Seems sweet in my head. For this concept, I'm leaning towards either BM or EK 6 now, with plans to either go straight EK or do the Assassin 3 dip. Warlock sounds cool but Hex would clash with my bonus action shot and the other perks don't seem as great as just continuing EK or Assassin.

I think the gunslinger is my preferred pick, but if we need another melee (as it might be we just have 1), I could look into monk or something else.

So the gunslinger in my head would be: EK 6+ or BM 6 / Assassin 4 / BM+

I have a shadow monk in the lvl 13 campaign I DM. I can say with some certainty watching him play from level 6 onward, Stunning Strike makes the class. It's that good. The monk could do zero damage but stunning the biggest threat (hell, multiple threats), robbing them of their next action and giving the rest of the party free hits, is the bee's knees. Teleporting on to flying targets and stunning them is also hilarious, causing them to crash for massive damage as the monk slow falls like a boss.

So monk is certainly an option. I'd probably avoid straight monk but Monk 5-6 and then something else could be really fun.

The other thing I think is fun is the Half-Orc scoundrel build: Assassin 3 / Champion 5 / Barbarian 2 / Champion 6 / Assassin 4

Scout and front line combatant. Dual Wields, extra damage dice on crit due to half-orc, champion gives expanded crit range / +damage on off-hand / action surge / extra attack, barbarian gives +2 damage to each swing (+6 total) / a big tank boost / reckless attack means no need for adjacent ally.

Action Surge Assassinate at lvl 9 would look like: 6d8 + 7d6 + 18 which is fun.

But maybe that's too much of a one-trick poney. Hmm.

Probably doing the Fighter gunslinger if we don't need melee, Monk 5-6 if we do.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Well, it certainly doesn't change anything for any optimized build with Crossbow Expert...

Well, technically speaking the assumption was that dual-wielding hand crossbows worked under the TWF rules, meaning you wouldn't get your Dexterity bonus to damage on the second attack. Under the clarification, you do get it. Plus it also means you have a hand free at all times ready for anything like a grapple or retrieving a potion, etc.


The third players loves going for support. He played a cleric in 4e and focused on healing, buffing, debuffing. I can only imagine he will pick cleric this time around too. The fourth loves being the tank and in 4e enjoyed the sword and board Fighter. These guys haven't made their characters yet though.

He should go a lore bard instead (or valour if he likes melee) and the fighter a battlemaster with the duelist fighting style.