To Spheres of Power, or not to Spheres of Power?

[heavyfuel]

So, as I've posted before, I'm starting a new campaign and my group decided they wanted to try PF instead of 3.5, and I said I was game.

Basically, a world that relied heavily on magitech, and regular wondrous items. Nothing the PF system couldn't handle.

Now... my dylemma (and please note that I speak without having bought SoP, just from from reviews and etc):

I've been reading A LOT of good things when it comes to SoP. I don't think I've read a single complaint about it to be honest. And while the system seems really good, especially for a balance aficionado like me, I'm afraid of 3 things:

1- That my players may not enjoy it as it wouldn't be "Pathfinder Pathfinder" but "Pathfinder with a completely different magic system", which ties to;

2- That SoP classes won't work with the classes that PF is famous for, namely the Gunslinger, Magus, Alchemist, and Oracle. Especially the last 3, since they use non-SoP spell system, making "PF PF" sound even more distant than "PF with weird magic system"

3- Lastly, that I'll have to "cheat" and use regular spells that may not be available through SoP in order to create the world. I don't really like using DM fiat to create NPCs that are way more powerful than any PC could ever be. I fear it would feel wrong to allow the existance of game-breaking spells like AMF and Gate and whatever else that isn't on the top of my head just to keep the idea alive.

Thoughts?

[Crake]

Honestly, there's no reason not to simply use SoP as a magical subsystem, rather than a total replacement. That said, anything that would require "actual spells" can easily (without fiat) be replaced by the ritual and spellcrafting system.

I personally use SoP in my game as an option, rather than a requirement for magic users, and it works out pretty well.

[heavyfuel]

Honestly, there's no reason not to simply use SoP as a magical subsystem, rather than a total replacement. That said, anything that would require "actual spells" can easily (without fiat) be replaced by the ritual and spellcrafting system.

Could you elaborate on the ritual and spellcasting system? Or is it something I'll have to create by myself?


I personally use SoP in my game as an option, rather than a requirement for magic users, and it works out pretty well.

That seems to defeat the purpose of SoP though. I mean, isn't the whole point of SoP that you can finally have spellcasters that don't completely outshine martials? If a person wants to play a spellcaster, why wouldn't they play something like a sorcerer (easy to create, better spells than SoP)?

[Vhaidara]

I'm confused by point 2. Gunslinger doesn't do magic at all, so that's irrelevant. For Magus and Oracle, there are conversions to sphere casting, just like every other caster.

For Alchemist, I actually leave them as they are. Vancian casting is generally stupid, but it actually makes sense in the context of Alchemy. It serves to make alchemists truly unique instead of just casters who need a full minute to cast

Edit: also, with spheres you never run out of magic. And some people don't want to be a jackass outshining everyone. And I would argue it is easier to build a spherecaster to fit you concept than a vancian, since you pick what you do, and that develops naturally rather than in jumps.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'm currently in a PF game as a Sphere Caster (Incanter to be specific) while we have a regular Cleric and an Investigator. The only real issues with mixing SoP and Vanician casting is fluffing why there are 2 different sets. Personally, we just fluffed my guy as being some weird variant of Sorcerer.

[Mcdt2]

Could you elaborate on the ritual and spellcasting system? Or is it something I'll have to create by myself?

Rituals are pretty much exactly "I cast a normal vancian spell, but it takes a very long time and costs some extra gold". It's very good for things like what you need.


That seems to defeat the purpose of SoP though. I mean, isn't the whole point of SoP that you can finally have spellcasters that don't completely outshine martials? If a person wants to play a spellcaster, why wouldn't they play something like a sorcerer (easy to create, better spells than SoP)?

Yes and no. If you have them alongside each other, the advantage to playing a Sphere caster is that certain concepts can be done right away at level 1. For example, you can control the weather, manipulate time, or raise undead minions without being unbalanced with other level 1 characters. Of course, at higher levels this is a bit of a moot point, but some players will appreciate the at-will nature of Sphere magic.

[Mehangel]

If you want to mix the systems fine, but with all that is possible with Spheres of Power if I was given the choice of playing either a vancian-casting wizard or a sphere-casting wizard, I would always without fail choose the sphere-casting wizard (This is especially true at low-levels).

For example lets compare two level 1 wizards:

Vancian Caster: Cantrips @ Will; Level 1 Spell Slots: 3-4 Likely.
Sphere Caster: 3 Spheres/talents; 4-6 Spell Points Likely (before casting traditions). With Feats Possible to include either Cantrips +1 Sphere/talent, or +2 Spheres/talents. [Thing is, unless you do conjuration, you might not even use up all your spell points by the end of the day, as most abilities are at-will unless you boost them with said spell points]

------

As for Spellcrafting, I find it easier to explain it with an example, so if there was a particular spell you had in mind, I wouldn't mind explaining how I would convert it.

[DrMartin]

as already mentioned, if you need a particular spell effect for your world building or for your BBEG, you can have it under SoP using either the rules for rituals (if it's an existing spell) or spellcrafting (if it's a custom magic effect). For the iconic classes use the conversions or use the SoP classes to achieve the same character concept - I find that once you have a clear idea of the character you want to play, character creation flows very quickly.

I'd say give the system a go with a short story and then if you don't like go back to vancian - but odds are good you will like it :D

[Chronikoce]

I'd say go for it. It is excellently written and far more balanced. There are rules for emulating every spell in game through rituals and such and it actually opens up the magic system to allow the type of long drawn out multi-person casting stuff that heroes are always having to thwart in stories.

I am looking forward to the day that I can participate in a game that runs with SoP. My Erza Scartlet inspired character is still waiting in the wings to be played hehe.

[heavyfuel]

I'm confused by point 2. Gunslinger doesn't do magic at all, so that's irrelevant. For Magus and Oracle, there are conversions to sphere casting, just like every other caster.

For Alchemist, I actually leave them as they are. Vancian casting is generally stupid, but it actually makes sense in the context of Alchemy. It serves to make alchemists truly unique instead of just casters who need a full minute to cast

Edit: also, with spheres you never run out of magic. And some people don't want to be a jackass outshining everyone. And I would argue it is easier to build a spherecaster to fit you concept than a vancian, since you pick what you do, and that develops naturally rather than in jumps.

Point 2 mentioning the Gunslinger is simply a fact that it's a class PF is famous for that might not get proper attention. It was probably a bad idea to put it there along with spellcasting classes, but still.

Are Alchemists in any way broken when compared to SoP (tier wise, either too high or too low)?

Never running out of magic also occurs when you're past lv 7 with the sorcerer. Probably before :smalltongue:. Not wanting to be a jackass is, however, the only argument for not playing a high tier caster.


I'm currently in a PF game as a Sphere Caster (Incanter to be specific) while we have a regular Cleric and an Investigator. The only real issues with mixing SoP and Vanician casting is fluffing why there are 2 different sets. Personally, we just fluffed my guy as being some weird variant of Sorcerer.

This is one of my fears. Having a weird fluff that breaks suspension of disbelief. Also, doesn't the Cleric outshines you by a mile?


Rituals are pretty much exactly "I cast a normal vancian spell, but it takes a very long time and costs some extra gold". It's very good for things like what you need.

Yes and no. If you have them alongside each other, the advantage to playing a Sphere caster is that certain concepts can be done right away at level 1. For example, you can control the weather, manipulate time, or raise undead minions without being unbalanced with other level 1 characters. Of course, at higher levels this is a bit of a moot point, but some players will appreciate the at-will nature of Sphere magic.

I assume this rules is found in the SoP book. Correct?

Appreciate them? Sure. But as I said before, not wanting to be an overpowered guy is the only thing that holds people back.


For the iconic classes use the conversions or use the SoP classes to achieve the same character concept - I find that once you have a clear idea of the character you want to play, character creation flows very quickly.

I'd say give the system a go with a short story and then if you don't like go back to vancian - but odds are good you will like it :D

Does these conversions work well? Say, can I have a Sphere Magus or some such?

That's actually a really good idea. Unfortunately that would mean buying the book or waiting for it to be on the PFSRD. My disposable income is low at this moment, and I'd rather not spend 20US$ on a book, especially with my currency so undervalued (Brazillian Real). I'll think about it.

[Vhaidara]

I mean, they become no more irrelevant than Fighters or anyone else who has the sole job of hitting people for lots of damage. If anything, the lack of things like Wind Wall on every other caster (it now requires investment in the Weather Sphere and a few rounds to build up winds) will make them a bit more effective.

They may come out a little strong, but they need rounds to buff up in, so that is a balancing factor in itself.

You kind of still do. Mostly because you run out of the ability to use *that* magic. A spherecaster with the Destruction Sphere will always have blasting, one with Warp Sphere will always have short range teleporting. And they will always have it at a reasonable level, and without needing to jump through hoops to maximize casting stat or bonus bonus spells.

As far as the conversions, I haven't actually looked at the non-core ones, but most of them can be built anyways. Spellstrike for damage spells is a talent in the Destruction Sphere (Energy Weapon), while Spell Combat is part of one the Traditions for the Hedgewitch class (which is the "build a gish" the way Incanter is "build a mage")

[Scowling Dragon]

There is an expanded class option for all the rest of the classes except for alchemist.

And Sphere casters are weaker then regular casters, but it FEELS more fun and is easier to learn and keep track of.

Personally I would use a Spellpoint Alchemist (Spellpoint system coming from Rouge Genius Games Expanded Option) just because it leaves less stats to keep track of.

Alchemists are already a class thats pretty fluffy and invested primarily in transmutation, which leaves it on oar with other Sphere casters without overpowering them.

[Milo v3]

This is one of my fears. Having a weird fluff that breaks suspension of disbelief. Also, doesn't the Cleric outshines you by a mile?
It's no more weird than adding witches, summoners, magus, or oracles to your game though?

[Mcdt2]

I assume this rules is found in the SoP book. Correct?

Yes. Chapter 4, page 131, in fact, since I have the pdf open right now.


Appreciate them? Sure. But as I said before, not wanting to be an overpowered guy is the only thing that holds people back.

This is admittedly a big selling point yes. On the other hand, YMMV on this, but I find the Spheres system to be simpler and more elegant, for the most part. Plus, the optional Spellcrafting system (which lets you make customized "spells" by combining multiple spheres/talents) to be really cool. And don't discount the low-level access to certain types of magic. A lot of games don't get to the levels where you can be throwing around constant weather manipulation, for example. If you're playing a short adventure path at low levels, it's really nice to be able to be able to play certain concepts from the start.

[Spore]

1- That my players may not enjoy it as it wouldn't be "Pathfinder Pathfinder" but "Pathfinder with a completely different magic system", which ties to;

2- That SoP classes won't work with the classes that PF is famous for, namely the Gunslinger, Magus, Alchemist, and Oracle. Especially the last 3, since they use non-SoP spell system, making "PF PF" sound even more distant than "PF with weird magic system"

3- Lastly, that I'll have to "cheat" and use regular spells that may not be available through SoP in order to create the world. I don't really like using DM fiat to create NPCs that are way more powerful than any PC could ever be. I fear it would feel wrong to allow the existance of game-breaking spells like AMF and Gate and whatever else that isn't on the top of my head just to keep the idea alive.


1) Ask them before you buy the book. Or at least before you use it. Especially the casters. Tell them what I will tie into #3.

2) I can't say much for Magus, but Alchemists are fine when untouched. The Oracle will suffer a bit (some concepts won't be playable as well. Tell your player(s) to get a form to contribute in combat other than spells). If it runs out of spell points you are screwed if you can't melee, or use bardic performance, or use some revelations to support.

3) That is entirely fine to me. A world starts to be interesting when not every miniscule detail of magical lore is readily available for the PCs and players. However - tieing into #1 - you should make standard D&D spells and items researchable. There's rules for spell research in Ultimate Campaign (I will take long and be expensive but a PC having the power to cast Fly or Invisibility outside of the Spheres system (once or so per day) isn't really outlandish.

[Adam Meyers]

Hi, the creator of Spheres of Power here.

I am the absolutely most biased person in world in regard to Spheres of Power, so while I'd love to sing the praises of the system to you, there's little I can say that won't sound like a sales pitch. Instead, I just wanted to comment on something; you live in Brazil? Awesome, I used to live in Minas Gerais!

Nao lembro muito da lingua, mas que distrito voce em?

[Larkas]

Wait, I used to live in MG O.o Did you live in BH?

[Rokku]

I'm curious why there isn't an SoP version of the Alchemist, myself. Too many weird unique Alchemist things to convert?

[Vhaidara]

That came up in the AMA thread. IIRC, the answer was pretty much the same one I gave: Vancian casting almost makes sense for alchemy, when it is exclusive to the alchemist. It's the fact that EVERYONE else uses it that makes it feel off.

Further, alchemists don't convert too well in theme, because they are more focused. All of their abilities, pending a Discovery (infusion), are self target only. That's unique, and gives them a much more defined list than even the 4th level casters like paladin.. Fireball and Disintegrate can make sense from most casters, but neither really makes sense from an alchemist (fireball as a superbomb maybe, but disintegrate as a ray?)

[heavyfuel]

Hi, the creator of Spheres of Power here.

I am the absolutely most biased person in world in regard to Spheres of Power, so while I'd love to sing the praises of the system to you, there's little I can say that won't sound like a sales pitch. Instead, I just wanted to comment on something; you live in Brazil? Awesome, I used to live in Minas Gerais!

Nao lembro muito da lingua, mas que distrito voce em?

Sup! Thanks for joining the discussion. Feel free to give me your best sales pitch, as it just might be enough to convince me to go for it. (as long as it doesn't violate the Forum's rules, of course)

I live in Paraná, southern Brazil.


Alchemists are already a class thats pretty fluffy and invested primarily in transmutation, which leaves it on oar with other Sphere casters without overpowering them.

Hmmm, glad to hear it. Like it's been said here, Alchemists make a lot of sense being vancian,


It's no more weird than adding witches, summoners, magus, or oracles to your game though?

Well, yes. All of these classes follow the regular way of casting spells (ie, spells per day). But now we have these guys that can also cast spells, but they can do it whenever they want? It's just like 3.5's Warlock all over again. Very balanced (Tier 3), hella fun, but with a stupid stupid fluff.


1) Ask them before you buy the book. Or at least before you use it. Especially the casters. Tell them what I will tie into #3.

3) That is entirely fine to me. A world starts to be interesting when not every miniscule detail of magical lore is readily available for the PCs and players. However - tieing into #1 - you should make standard D&D spells and items researchable. There's rules for spell research in Ultimate Campaign (I will take long and be expensive but a PC having the power to cast Fly or Invisibility outside of the Spheres system (once or so per day) isn't really outlandish.

1) Done that. Their fear is the same as mine: Of missing out on regular PF content.

3) I still think this defeats the purpose of SoP somewhat. While I'm not familiar with 9th levels spells in PF, Wizards in 3.5 weren't powerful because they could do well in combat, but because things like Ice Assassin, Gate and Astral Projection exist. These things don't care about your combat, they do so much more, and allowing these things - even if only through research - would still break a 3.5 game. Doesn't the same apply to PF?

[Milo v3]

Well, yes. All of these classes follow the regular way of casting spells (ie, spells per day). But now we have these guys that can also cast spells, but they can do it whenever they want? It's just like 3.5's Warlock all over again. Very balanced (Tier 3), hella fun, but with a stupid stupid fluff.
But witches have at will magic (hexes), summoners have eidolons and scaling summon monster SLAs, magus have a special pool of points, or oracles have magic curses that give them superpowers.

[Vhaidara]

Wait, are you saying that spherecaster have the hells stupid fluff? I personally find the wizard who forgets his spells after using them, the sorcerer whose blood stops being magic, and the cleric whose God, in his moment of need, goes "meh, you already case Cure Serious twice today" to be far more stupid. Vancian casting is not a good system, spheres makes you feel like a mage at all levels, at all times.

[stack]

I would say that van in casting has a very specific fluff, where spheres fits better for any number of fantasy archetypes and characters from non-D&D based fiction. Making themed characters is just vastly more natural with spheres.

[Oberon Kenobi]

I would say that van in casting has a very specific fluff, where spheres fits better for any number of fantasy archetypes and characters from non-D&D based fiction. Making themed characters is just vastly more natural with spheres.This, a thousand times this. Building around a theme or aesthetic, and having it be mechanically meaningful and viable, is just so easy and satisfying with Spheres.

Want to be a Green Lantern? How about a Magical Girl, Creepy Spider Mage, or a Firebending Assassin? All doable. You can model your character after that one cool thing from that show you love, and it will actually work, without needing to dig through a hundred class archetypes and feats and prestige classes and all that junk.

[heavyfuel]

Wait, are you saying that spherecaster have the hells stupid fluff? I personally find the wizard who forgets his spells after using them, the sorcerer whose blood stops being magic, and the cleric whose God, in his moment of need, goes "meh, you already case Cure Serious twice today" to be far more stupid. Vancian casting is not a good system, spheres makes you feel like a mage at all levels, at all times.

No no no. Vancian is stupid, but having at will spells is stupid when you have vancian as being the rule. If you establish that your fluff is "Magic is divided by levels of power and is a limited 'per rest' resource because it tires the caster's mind or your god doesn't like you that much or whatever" and then say "Oh, except for these guys over here, they're different". That's when I have problems.


But witches have at will magic (hexes), summoners have eidolons and scaling summon monster SLAs, magus have a special pool of points, or oracles have magic curses that give them superpowers.

From what I've seen, not all hexes are at will, and the ones that are, are very weak. I don't mind the witch's fluff being that she can basically turn a weak spell into a cantrip. The other class features don't give you unlimited spell access. The general rule of "cast and forget" still applies to them

[Milo v3]

No no no. Vancian is stupid, but having at will spells is stupid when you have vancian as being the rule. If you establish that your fluff is "Magic is divided by levels of power and is a limited 'per rest' resource because it tires the caster's mind or your god doesn't like you that much or whatever" and then say "Oh, except for these guys over here, they're different". That's when I have problems.
Thing is, why should all magic in the setting be the same. That's boring unless the system is rather well designed.

[Oberon Kenobi]

Sphere Casters have the rest mechanic too, though. Apart from your basic abilities, pretty much everything requires one or more spell points to do, and once you're out of those you can only get them back by resting.

It's basically like the divide between spells and cantrips, if cantrips were useful scaling effects.

[Vhaidara]

You see, this is why I've purged vancian from my campaings (except Alchemy). And why I recommend the same to everyone else. Psionics can stay, power points work better to represent the mental exhaustion idea, since it deals in the total power you've spent.

I have never actually had a character who used vancian casting where I was in any way satisfied with it. And yes, this includes before spheres, path of war, Psionics, or any other subsystems.

[Extra Anchovies]

You see, this is why I've purged vancian from my campaings (except Alchemy). And why I recommend the same to everyone else. Psionics can stay, power points work better to represent the mental exhaustion idea, since it deals in the total power you've spent.

I have never actually had a character who used vancian casting where I was in any way satisfied with it. And yes, this includes before spheres, path of war, Psionics, or any other subsystems.

The silliness of vancian casting varies by class. Wizard makes zero sense and should just not exist (school savant Arcanist, yo). Spontaneous casters (Bard, Sorcerer, Inquisitor, Oracle, Summoner, Bloodrager, Hunter, Skald) should use a magic point system. Arcanist is fine, and the Magus should cast like an Arcanist. Alchemists are perfectly fine as vancian. Clerics and Paladins work with vancian casting because their god has only granted them one Bless for today (why? Because there are hundreds or even thousands of other clerics who are also requesting power from their god). Shamans, Druids, Witches, Rangers, and Hunters (if you make them prepared casters, which they should be) should cast like Arcanists.

[Brova]

Vancian casting makes exactly as much sense as any other kind of casting, because it is magic and it can do whatever it wants. Now, I don't personally like vancian per-day casting because daily limits don't make sense for non-casters and having daily and encounter limits give you A != A problems. But saying that any particular kind of magic "should" use some resource management system is ridiculous. A Warlock could have powers that inflict debuffs on him when he uses them because he dabbles in dangerous arts, or he could have at-will powers because he is a simplified character attached to a demon, or he could (though probably not in a D&D game) gain his powers by carrying talismans of the dead. None of those are more or less reasonable for a guy who summons demons to do, because there are no real world people who summon demons to base assumptions about demon summoning on.

[Ssalarn]

*** None of those are more or less reasonable for a guy who summons demons to do, because there are no real world people who summon demons to base assumptions about demon summoning on.

Clearly you've lived a sheltered life and never had to spend the night camping under a bridge hiding from summoned demons.


I will agree with other posters that I find Vancian casting jumbled and nonsensical, and representative of absolutely nothing in literature or media, including the works of Jack Vance. I personally find the spherecasting system to be vastly superior in both theme, balance, and internal logic, as well as being better suited for representing most concepts seen in literature and media.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The fluff of Sphere Casters is independent of the class. They are pretty much devoid of fluff because its the casting traditions that form the fluff for an individual. Think of it kind of like how magic is handled in the anime/manga Fairy Tale. Everyone has vastly different powers and abilities that barely hold to the same rules between them. But its still all magic, with the limitations based on the individual instead of some universal laws.

[Adam Meyers]

I was in BH for a while, plus a few other cities, yeah.

If your primary concern is the flavor dissonance of mixing magic systems, I'd recommend choosing a default tradition for SoP for your world and making it its own separate form of magic:

Arcane and divine magic use spell levels, psionics (if you're using them) use power points, but bloodmagic/drug-induced magic/Jedi powers/the chosen of the true god of madness/candy mages/Demigods/technomancy/whatever you want it to be uses Spheres. The entire design philosophy of SoP is letting you mold magic to fit your needs rather than forcing you to fit your world around the magic system, and with the tradition sub-rules, you can literally repurpose the Spheres to be whatever you want (in one pitch, I compared the system less to a magic system, and more to a set of easilly-adapted tools for building your own). There's even a prestige class for mixing spells and spheres if you have someone who wants to use both.

The final chapter of the book includes 4 sample worlds that show different ways of adapting SoP to fit a story or world concept. I don't think it'd be hard at all to introduce the Spheres to your world without upsetting the core casting system.

[Larkas]

I was in BH for a while, plus a few other cities, yeah.

It's my hometown! Never thought I'd met anyone here that had ever gone there! Hope you liked our pão-de-queijo! :smallsmile: I'm really liking SoP in a campaign I'm playing, btw. It's a very versatile system. It should come as no surprise at all it's great at modeling elemental benders! :smalltongue: