What effect would this have on fighter tier?

[gooddragon1]

What if fighters could take a feat or had a class feature that allowed them to make a concentration check in place of any d20 roll (not affected by things that normally incur penalties for concentration)? [They also get concentration as a class skill]

To keep spellcasting out of it and keep it mostly fighter (except maybe through items), if they gain a level in any class that casts spells or uses spell-like abilities/they have more than 4 non-fighter levels, they can't use the ability.

How would that affect the tier of the fighter?

Speculations:
Attack rolls don't miss on a 1.
Saves don't fail on a 1.
Make any check "untrained" (that's probably worth tier 3 right?).

[KoDT69]

I'm guessing that with Warlocks and Duskblades and the like in T3 IIRC, this change to the basic Fighter does nothing to move him up. I'm sure in some cases it would be better, but the difference does not give him any new tricks to actually bump him up in power. I love Fighters for the record, so I add a lot to them in my own games to make them better. No matter what you give him though, it's still not as good as magic :smallyuk:

[IZ42]

The problem, though, is that Concentration is not a fighter Class-skill IIRC, so they would either have to gain Concentration as a class skill some how, or pick up able-learner (which would restrict races pretty hard).

Other than that, I would say this could make Fighters Tier 3 pretty easy, seeing as how it can pretty much make the fighter reliant on CON and DEX only, and maybe grab the requisite ability score for power attack, etc. In fact, it could make fighters CON SAD, if they're able to get into both the FotF and Deepwarden classes (x2 CON to AC, though no armor).

[gooddragon1]

The problem, though, is that Concentration is not a fighter Class-skill IIRC, so they would either have to gain Concentration as a class skill some how, or pick up able-learner (which would restrict races pretty hard).

Other than that, I would say this could make Fighters Tier 3 pretty easy, seeing as how it can pretty much make the fighter reliant on CON and DEX only, and maybe grab the requisite ability score for power attack, etc. In fact, it could make fighters CON SAD, if they're able to get into both the FotF and Deepwarden classes (x2 CON to AC, though no armor).

Meant to say that they get concentration as a class skill as well.

Wouldn't they require strength too for damage?

[HunterOfJello]

Does "any d20 roll" include all skill checks for all skills?

This turns Fighters into some sort of weird concentration minor reality bender.

[OldTrees1]

Tier 4

So they get 1d20+Con+Level+8 to 1d20+Con+Level+38 to all d20 rolls? While that would help the Fighter out of combat it does not address the weaknesses a single classed fighter has in combat. That is without touching the fact that it is poorly designed because it makes skills, saves, and attack rolls all irrelevant.

[gooddragon1]

Does "any d20 roll" include all skill checks for all skills?

This turns Fighters into some sort of weird concentration minor reality bender.

Yes. I was thinking the same thing *internal monologue maniacal laughter*.


Tier 4

Without dips(how the classes are judged) this is merely Bardic Knack that also applies to attack roles. single classed Fighters currently have issues in both combat and out of combat. This does not address Fighter's combat issues and is half as strong as it would need to sufficiently impact out of combat. This is without addressing the major design flaws(like making the skills subsystem irrelevant).



Fighter + Pounce + Rogue skills is a good start towards/to Tier 3 and is a useful comparison.

What issues in combat?

[OldTrees1]

What issues in combat?

Note: I edited my post when I saw that they get it as a class skill.


A Fighter needs to reach their target and affect their target in a level appropriate manner. As the rules stand now, replacing Balance/Climb/Jump and Break checks with a Concentration check will not get the Fighter to their target fast enough or even at all as they go up in level. Then you have to address the inability to significantly affect their target in numerous circumstances without resorting to an ubercharger(and even then sometimes).

Now all of those issues should be addressed at their various sources, but it does mean this kludge of a suggestion is insufficient and does not justify being a kludge.

[gooddragon1]

Note: I edited my post when I saw that they get it as a class skill.


A Fighter needs to reach their target and affect their target in a level appropriate manner. As the rules stand now, replacing Balance/Climb/Jump and Break checks with a Concentration check will not get the Fighter to their target fast enough or even at all as they go up in level. Then you have to address the inability to significantly affect their target in numerous circumstances without resorting to an ubercharger(and even then sometimes).

Now all of those issues should be addressed at their various sources, but it does mean this kludge of a suggestion is insufficient and does not justify being a kludge.

How about also allowing concentration checks in place of damage rolls as well (this makes a bow and arrows into a legitimate possibility)?

That makes the fighter nearly single ability dependent. I'm just performing a thought experiment for fun here.

[HunterOfJello]

The access to high checks on such a massive skill list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9572495&postcount=33) would be impressive and could bump up the fighter's out-of-combat utility massively.

I am, of course, assuming that the Fighter takes Jack of All Trades to remove the 10 limit on untrained skills.

This would let the Fighter securely steal the rogue's place as a skill monkey in the group. Additionally, use of Iajutsu Focus, Intimidate, and UMD would up the Fighter's potential in combat substantially.

Ultimately this gets a Fighter into high tier 4 to very low tier 3 range. The very low tier 3 range is only if the player happens to start optimizing more and is very creative with handle animal, diplomacy, bluff, sleight of hand, forgery, and autohypnosis. They're still going to suck in combat, but they can make up for it by gaining allies and support out-of-combat. It all depends far more on the player.

[gooddragon1]

The access to high checks on such a massive skill list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9572495&postcount=33) would be impressive and could bump up the fighter's out-of-combat utility massively.

I am, of course, assuming that the Fighter takes Jack of All Trades to remove the 10 limit on untrained skills.

This would let the Fighter securely steal the rogue's place as a skill monkey in the group. Additionally, use of Iajutsu Focus, Intimidate, and UMD would up the Fighter's potential in combat substantially.

Ultimately this gets a Fighter into high tier 4 to very low tier 3 range. The very low tier 3 range is only if the player happens to start optimizing more and is very creative with handle animal, diplomacy, bluff, sleight of hand, forgery, and autohypnosis. They're still going to suck in combat, but they can make up for it by gaining allies and support out-of-combat. It all depends far more on the player.

Does using concentration checks in place of weapon damage rolls improve it in combat?

[OldTrees1]

How about also allowing concentration checks in place of damage rolls as well?

That makes the fighter nearly single ability dependent. I'm just performing a thought experiment for fun here.

*points to the word ubercharger in previous post*
No. Rolling 1d20+70 for damage would not help the 20th level fighter if they still can't reach their 10th level foe (flying storm mage in this example).


Ah, if this is a joking thought experiment then I will cease the nuanced design critique and stick to the title. This would boost Fighter to be a Tier 4 skillmonkey but combat would outgrow their combat ability which is why they are not Tier 3.

[gooddragon1]

*points to the word ubercharger in previous post*
No. Rolling 1d20+70 for damage would not help the 20th level fighter if they still can't reach their 10th level foe (flying storm mage in this example).


Ah, if this is a joking thought experiment then I will cease the nuanced design critique and stick to the title. This would boost Fighter to be a Tier 4 skillmonkey but combat would outgrow their combat ability which is why they are not Tier 3.

But... but... but... arrows :(

Yeah, I know, wind wall and such.

After looking at the tier list again I think I see the pattern: Tier 3 - Maneuvers or partial spell access (plus already good features), Tier 2 - 9th level spell access, Tier 1 - Very large list of 9th level spell access.

Still, it's funny to think of a fighter making a concentration check for everything.

Isn't there a martial stance that lets you fly though?

[OldTrees1]

But... but... but... arrows :(

Yeah, I know, wind wall and such.

After looking at the tier list again I think I see the pattern: Tier 3 - Maneuvers or partial spell access (plus already good features), Tier 2 - 9th level spell access, Tier 1 - Very large list of 9th level spell access.

Still, it's funny to think of a fighter making a concentration check for everything.

Incorrect pattern:
Tier 3 does not require manuevers or spells, those are just the ways WotC managed to do it. Fighter style can work if given what it needs.
Tier 1-2 is not defined by 9th level spell access, see the Tier 3 fullcasters for an obvious counterexample. Rather it is defined by the ability to break campaigns and the ability to do all/any(respectively) of the things.

I believe there is a martial stance for walking on air(although you might need to land)

[Bucky]

This give the Fighter TO applications to hit tier 2 with dips in (e.g.) Truenamer.

The fighter attempts, say, a Truespeak check, at a net 1d20-1. He replaces the d20 with a Concentration check, making it (1d20+6)-1. He then replaces that d20 with another Concentration check, making it ((1d20+6)+6)-1. And so on until he's guaranteed to hit his NI DC.

Between epic Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide and Sleight of Hand, the Fighter can break the game in a few ways at lower levels than the corresponding caster abilities.

[OldTrees1]

This give the Fighter TO applications to hit tier 2 with dips in (e.g.) Truenamer.

The fighter attempts, say, a Truespeak check, at a net 1d20-1. He replaces the d20 with a Concentration check, making it (1d20+6)-1. He then replaces that d20 with another Concentration check, making it ((1d20+6)+6)-1. And so on until he's guaranteed to hit his NI DC.

Between epic Diplomacy, Stealth, Listen, Sleight of Hand

I can see how you are butchering the language to reach that. However a "d20 roll" is "1d20+/-modifiers" and not the same as "1d20". So you get to swap in a concentration for your 1d20+/-modifiers not for your 1d20. So no NI results.

[Sagetim]

About the same effect as having some free levels of sword sage and access to only Diamond Mind.

I'm kind of surprised that no one brought up the various maneuvers in Diamond Mind that basically do what you're talking about. Granted, it's more limited than what you're talking about, but in the same alleyway, trying to stare people down to death.

[SinsI]

Does "any d20 roll" include all skill checks for all skills?

This turns Fighters into some sort of weird concentration minor reality bender.
No. Since Concentration check includes a d20 roll, it gives them +infinity bonus to any d20 roll as long as they have a Concentration bonus of +1 or greater.

[IZ42]

No. Since Concentration check includes a d20 roll, it gives them +infinity bonus to any d20 roll as long as they have a Concentration bonus of +1 or greater.

I think you misunderstand. By replacing a roll with a concentration check, the OP means replacing say a 1d20+4 in spot or something with a 1d20+8 in concentration. You replace the whole roll, not just the d20. I don't understand how that's not what everybody first thinks.

[Gnaeus]

It would be tier 3.

Assume fighter takes a high con, keeps ranks maxed, takes skill focus concentration. A level 1 fighter would reasonably have a +10 at level 1, going up faster than 1 per level.

A fighter with moderate opti fu would soon have a +2-4 custom item to add to concentration, and a belt of con +2. Say by level 8. So his check at level 8 is likely to be +11 (ranks) +5 con +3 skill bonus item +3 Skill focus. It could be much higher, but call it +22.

At level 8, a +22 means:
All saving throws are essentially yes. (This is actually better than diamond mind. he can do it on every save, without spending resources or actions)
He is better than an equivalent level barbarian in combat. (Those things alone make him tier 4.)

He can UMD any wand without chance of error.
He has high enough spot and listen that he can readily locate invisibles.
Tumble is yes.
He can win any social encounter as well as a build with max charisma and ranks and resources spent on social. Within a few levels he will functionally have glibness at will.
Handle Animal is yes.
All Knowledge checks better than a wizard.


He has more feats than he needs, so he should take Imperious Command ASAP (and never outnumbered skill trick).

Every single fight should begin:
Fighter gets a surprise round. He has minimum 23 for Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen. He uses a buff wand or something.
Round 1. with a +22 initiative check, fighter wins initiative. He moves up to enemies. Intimidate check (Imperious Command, Never Outnumbered) automatically locks down every nearby enemy.
Round 2, he is next to his enemies, and begins savaging them with full attacks.

He has at least 6 feats left. If fighter ACPs are available Dungeoncrasher (he won't fail bull rush checks often) or Zhentarim (For intimidate abuse) are both amazing for him.

Without allowing concentration checks for damage, he is already a very solid T3. Outperforming all the martial classes and duskblade. Very competitive with Wildshape ranger, Bard, and Psi Warrior through most levels. At high levels, he will fall behind the full casters, unless playing at a strict RAW table and allowed to abuse Diplomacy.

[ComaVision]

I think my largest problem with this fix is that it isn't anything like a Fighter. It's more like playing a different game where every roll is determined by a d20 roll with the same modifiers every time. Make the class HD a d20 too and just rename the class d20.

My single favourite fix I've seen for the Fighter is a class ability that lets you change out your Fighter bonus feats. It's definitely not enough on its own but man, it's a good start at giving the class more versatility while maintaining the feel of the class.

[daremetoidareyo]

To deal with flying enemies with dr, you need power attack for ranged attacks.

Also Make pounce a fighter bonus feat option: prerequisite fighter 5

[OldTrees1]

To deal with flying enemies with dr, you need power attack for ranged attacks.

Also Make pounce a fighter bonus feat option: prerequisite fighter 5

Agreed
To deal with flying enemies with wind wall, you need siege weapons. And then you need power attack(or something similarly boosting damage) for ranged attacks to break though DR.

If you add necessary abilities to Fighter by making them Fighter Bonus Feats, then remember to increase their number of Bonus feats.

[Gnaeus]

To deal with flying enemies with dr, you need power attack for ranged attacks.


To deal with most flying enemies with DR, you throw a tanglefoot bag with a touch attack of +22-2 per 10 feet. It immediately loses half its movement, -2 to hit, -4 dex, and must make a DC 15 reflex save (at -2 for dex penalty) or fall.

It isn't perfect, but may not be any worse than what the Crusader or Warblade have available. Knowledge devotion with a decent bow may also get you there, or just locking down fliers with intimidate checks could get you there, depending on build.

[SinsI]

It would also increase his damage greatly: Power Attack now doesn't affect to hit chances, all iteratives and secondary attacks also automatically hit. You also say goodbye to all ranged to-hit penalties.

[Curmudgeon]

This would let the Fighter securely steal the rogue's place as a skill monkey in the group.
Not entirely. They still lack trapfinding, so their abilities with Search and Disable Device are limited. They also can't steal the Ranger's thunder without Track to make high Survival skill relevant. But on things like Appraise, Forgery, Gather Information, and Use Rope they'd be champs. The Fighter would also identify all spells way better than the Wizard (Spellcraft).

One thing this altered class would do is encourage sameness. Every Fighter would make CON their best stat. Dragonborn (+2 CON) Mongrelfolk (+4 CON) would constitute something like 50% of all Fighters. Worshiping Lolth and going for Lolth-touched (+6 CON), and/or getting a Wizard to cast Mineralize Warrior (+4 CON) on you (both +1 LA acquired templates) would be de rigueur.

[OldTrees1]

One thing this altered class would do is encourage sameness. Every Fighter would make CON their best stat. Dragonborn (+2 CON) Mongrelfolk (+4 CON) would constitute something like 50% of all Fighters. Worshiping Lolth and going for Lolth-touched (+6 CON), and/or getting a Wizard to cast Mineralize Warrior (+4 CON) on you (both +1 LA acquired templates) would be de rigueur.

You are right but for the wrong reasons. These are Concentration checks not Constitution checks. WBL will matter much more than Constitution will. An 18 Con Human will be looking at a +70, an 18(34 after racials) Con Mineral Warrior Lolth Touched Dragonborn Mongrelfolk would be looking at a +77(+78 with LA buyoff). Even a Con 1 Human would have a +61.

When the difference between a Con 1 Human and a Con 34 Multitemplated Mongrelfolk is negligible, then you know that there is too much sameness.

[DMVerdandi]

Personally, I think it's a god-aweful idea.
It's broken, and it sounds like it is going to be a level 1 ability, so a single level dip is all it would take to start abusing it. Then you can just play the other class you have, and continue to do whatever you want with this class ability.

The fighter needs a couple of things to get to a higher tier.
1. Skills.
And preferably instead of Concentration check to replace everything[puke], just give him some actual skills and skill points. There is no reason that a rogue should have more talent in skills than someone who is actually educated in war. The big stupid fighter thing needs to stop.

2.Either Better feats, or an actual class ability system.
TOB works well in the interim. Give them war blade initiator levels, and choice of any two schools as a replacement for the last 2 fighter feats as an ACF. Better feats would require a system overhaul, this is just a cheap and easy hack.

3. Exotic weapon proficiency
Honestly, I would make fighters proficient in ALL weapons and armor. Then it really seems like they are weapon masters.
Alternatively, Weapon aptitude.

4.Access to spells/psionic?
As an ACF.
Psychic warrior exists.
Psychic rogue exists.
Spellthief exists
Duskblade exists.

Nothing wrong with making a variant fighter that can access those things, as it has already been done. Just not necessarily as a class variant for the fighter.

---------

And really, those things are where 3.5 made it's biggest mistakes with the fighter. They claimed to have made it THE class for creative building, and variety, but really, every time they ran into another concept that COULD have been made into a variant or an ACF (Pathfinder and 5e did the opposite with archetypes and paths), they made it into a totally different class.
Psychic warrior could have very well been a fighter variant. Duskblade could have very well been a fighter variant. Warblade could have very well been a fighter variant. Heck, Paladin and Ranger should have been fighter variants.


So trying to come up with some other idea on how to make the vanilla fighter MORE is an exercise against the poor game design of the base system itself. There are solutions. Give it stuff that it is lacking that other classes already have, and still keep the same flavor.


OR, play as another class and RP as a fighter.
Not once do you have to really wave your class title around, or play it in a different mindset outside of a war-weary grizzled soldier. Some don't have weapon and armor proficiencies. Dip fighter, and go back to main class.

[Curmudgeon]

You are right but for the wrong reasons. These are Concentration checks not Constitution checks. WBL will matter much more than Constitution will. An 18 Con Human will be looking at a +70, an 18(34 after racials) Con Mineral Warrior Lolth Touched Dragonborn Mongrelfolk would be looking at a +77(+78 with LA buyoff). Even a Con 1 Human would have a +61.

When the difference between a Con 1 Human and a Con 34 Multitemplated Mongrelfolk is negligible, then you know that there is too much sameness.
What are you going on about here? Concentration is a Constitution-based skill. As far as I can tell, you're just pulling numbers out of the air.

[Extra Anchovies]

What are you going on about here? Concentration is a Constitution-based skill. As far as I can tell, you're just pulling numbers out of the air.

His point is that at the high levels, ranks and competence-bonus items will matter more than ability scores.

That being said, ability scores will still be very relevant at the early and mid levels.

[Curmudgeon]

His point is that at the high levels, ranks and competence-bonus items will matter more than ability scores.
Custom magic items aren't guaranteed to be available unless you craft them yourself, and a Fighter can't do that. The Fighter can get +10 from Third Eye Concentrate, but that's an item you typically buy at 12th level.

[OldTrees1]

Custom magic items aren't guaranteed to be available unless you craft them yourself, and a Fighter can't do that. The Fighter can get +10 from Third Eye Concentrate, but that's an item you typically buy at 12th level.

And yet that 1 item is more than half the difference between a Con 1 Human and a Con 34 Mongrel. As I said, you are right about the rule causing sameness. But you overlooked the primary source aka leveling (Ranks, Con boosting items/HD boosts, Masterwork Tool, Skill Focus(everything), Third Eye Concentrate).

[gooddragon1]

Personally, I think it's a god-aweful idea.
It's broken, and it sounds like it is going to be a level 1 ability, so a single level dip is all it would take to start abusing it. Then you can just play the other class you have, and continue to do whatever you want with this class ability.

The fighter needs a couple of things to get to a higher tier.
1. Skills.
And preferably instead of Concentration check to replace everything[puke], just give him some actual skills and skill points. There is no reason that a rogue should have more talent in skills than someone who is actually educated in war. The big stupid fighter thing needs to stop.

2.Either Better feats, or an actual class ability system.
TOB works well in the interim. Give them war blade initiator levels, and choice of any two schools as a replacement for the last 2 fighter feats as an ACF. Better feats would require a system overhaul, this is just a cheap and easy hack.

3. Exotic weapon proficiency
Honestly, I would make fighters proficient in ALL weapons and armor. Then it really seems like they are weapon masters.
Alternatively, Weapon aptitude.

4.Access to spells/psionic?
As an ACF.
Psychic warrior exists.
Psychic rogue exists.
Spellthief exists
Duskblade exists.

Nothing wrong with making a variant fighter that can access those things, as it has already been done. Just not necessarily as a class variant for the fighter.

---------

And really, those things are where 3.5 made it's biggest mistakes with the fighter. They claimed to have made it THE class for creative building, and variety, but really, every time they ran into another concept that COULD have been made into a variant or an ACF (Pathfinder and 5e did the opposite with archetypes and paths), they made it into a totally different class.
Psychic warrior could have very well been a fighter variant. Duskblade could have very well been a fighter variant. Warblade could have very well been a fighter variant. Heck, Paladin and Ranger should have been fighter variants.


So trying to come up with some other idea on how to make the vanilla fighter MORE is an exercise against the poor game design of the base system itself. There are solutions. Give it stuff that it is lacking that other classes already have, and still keep the same flavor.


OR, play as another class and RP as a fighter.
Not once do you have to really wave your class title around, or play it in a different mindset outside of a war-weary grizzled soldier. Some don't have weapon and armor proficiencies. Dip fighter, and go back to main class.

Actually, this is more like a thought experiment for fun. I mentioned in the OP that if the fighter took more than 4 fighter levels or anything with spells, SLA's, or similar they'd lose this ability. Still, I'm loving some of the creativity I'm seeing with the responses (power attack not being affected is cool and so is the use of some skills).

[atemu1234]

All in all, I don't see it actually doing much. It's strange, and doesn't feel like a fighter.