If an alienist used that OTHER Pseudonatural template...

[Thealtruistorc]

It seems generally agreed upon that the alienist is a rather unoptimized PrC for summoners, given that it loses you almost all of your best summons at high levels and the entirety of SMIX in exchange for some rather ineffectual abilities and plenty of unwelcome penalties.

I was perusing the Epic Level Handbook the other day and I came across the pseudonatural template there, alongside the disclaimer that it was not in fact an update of the alienist's template that it applied to summoned monsters.

That got me thinking, what if the capstone (10th level ability) of the Alienist class switched the template over from the Complete Arcane Pseudonatural to the Epic Level Handbook Pseudonatural? How would the power and utility of the class, especially at high levels, be altered? Would people actually consider taking it then? Would it be too ludicrously strong for usage? I want thoughts.

[Extra Anchovies]

It would make the PrC stronger without actually fixing its problems. An Alienist 10 would be able to absolutely wreck face in combat, to the point of not needing party members to participate in the fights, due to the strength of their summons. However, what makes the alienist bad is that it locks you into fiendish/celestial animals, which cuts out all of the utility from Summon Monster.

[Sith_Happens]

It would make the PrC stronger without actually fixing its problems. An Alienist 10 would be able to absolutely wreck face in combat, to the point of not needing party members to participate in the fights, due to the strength of their summons. However, what makes the alienist bad is that it locks you into fiendish/celestial animals, which cuts out all of the utility from Summon Monster.

So, it other words, it would make it a well-balanced PrC. In that it trades off one thing for another thing that's worth it.

[ShurikVch]

Maybe, just use the variant of that PrC from the Tome and Blood?

[Tvtyrant]

Your summons would be better than the parties facebeater by a lot, and opponents would have to deal with all of the giant bugs suddenly becoming amazing. It might balance out okay in an all tier 1 and 2 party.

[Brookshw]

Maybe, just use the variant of that PrC from the Tome and Blood?

You mean the original? Yeah, that should restore the summons though its still a caster so you've still got more than enough bang for your buck using the 3.5. Using the epic template for psuedonatural though would definitely unbalanced things in the party so probably best to avoid.

[Flickerdart]

So, it other words, it would make it a well-balanced PrC. In that it trades off one thing for another thing that's worth it.
Well, no. It trades one thing which was versatile but not strong for another thing that's absurdly overpowered. That's the epitome of bad balance.

[PersonMan]

I'd say that versatility in summoning is part of its strength, though.

Not that I think it wouldn't be a bad idea. God in combat, options outside of it cut down...eh.

[Psyren]

Well, no. It trades one thing which was versatile but not strong for another thing that's absurdly overpowered. That's the epitome of bad balance.

^ That. Summons should be weak in combat without a decent amount of optimization to pump them up. They should not start out stronger than the melee players and only go up from there with buffs and feats etc.

[Pluto!]

So, it other words, it would make it a well-balanced PrC. In that it trades off one thing for another thing that's worth it.

Not at all. This is like giving the Fighter a +10/level damage bonus. It will trivialize the encounters where dumb meat summons are good anyway, without addressing the problems in breadth.

The Alienist is already one of the best-balanced PrCs because it gives something up in return for its benefits. That balanced exchange is why the class gets its bad rep in the first place.

[Psyren]

It's overbalanced imo, to the point of being watered down. I would at least add some low-CR aberrations to its summoning list, if we must strip out the outsiders/elementals.

[Necroticplague]

The Alienist is already one of the best-balanced PrCs because it gives something up in return for its benefits. That balanced exchange is why the class gets its bad rep in the first place.

Except it's not a balanced exchange. It gets a bad rap because you give up way more than you get out of it.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

... I followed a PbP game on here where Pseudonatural (Epic version) creatures were used as the main recurring antagonists of a mid-to-high-level game (12-15 before it died, if I recall correctly). Like, I can't speak for how optimized the players were or weren't because my system mastery isn't great, but there was no point between levels 12 and 15 where these guys had a reliable means of taking one of those things down. My impression is that being able to summon them would be more than a little much outside of the really high-op games.

[atemu1234]

It would remove any necessity of melee. Nothing new there.
It would make levels 1-9 of Alienist still as bad.
I wouldn't do it.

Edit-
It occurs to me that in an epic game this is more useable. Boost the skill requirements to 14 for normal skills and 7 for cross-class. Then they get the capstone at level 21.

[Bad Wolf]

What if it just added the normal pseudonatural template to all summons?

[Extra Anchovies]

What if it just added the normal pseudonatural template to all summons?

There's already a feat that does that, Master of Madness from the Player's Guide to Eberron.

[Pluto!]

Except it's not a balanced exchange. It gets a bad rap because you give up way more than you get out of it.
You give up utility summons, and that's it. You get an extra spell slot, accelerated feat advancement and minor flavorful class features.

What exactly can you do with those utility summons that you couldn't otherwise achieve with the Wizard spell list?

For a Cleric, it's true that quite a few effects become considerably more difficult without their summons. For a wizard, the loss isn't out of line with its benefits.

[Psyren]

What exactly can you do with those utility summons that you couldn't otherwise achieve with the Wizard spell list?

That's not the point - the point is that you now have to prepare all those spells instead of just preparing a summon X spell that could potentially do that thing for you, and plenty more besides. So for example, if you need three Magic Circles Against Evil in a given day, you have to prepare that spell three times, and then every other day from then on you'd have to wonder/worry about whether you still need that or whether you can use those slots for something else. But a conjurer can prepare SM4 three times for a Lantern Archon instead, and on days where he doesn't need that, he can use those same slots to cast something else. It's very difficult to catch a toolbox summoner off guard.



For a Cleric, it's true that quite a few effects become considerably more difficult without their summons. For a wizard, the loss isn't out of line with its benefits.

Their summons get +1 AC, minor acid and electricity resistance, pointless DR and 1/day true strike. I don't consider that worth giving up Leonals and Gelugons etc. at all, personally.

[Brova]

... I followed a PbP game on here where Pseudonatural (Epic version) creatures were used as the main recurring antagonists of a mid-to-high-level game (12-15 before it died, if I recall correctly). Like, I can't speak for how optimized the players were or weren't because my system mastery isn't great, but there was no point between levels 12 and 15 where these guys had a reliable means of taking one of those things down. My impression is that being able to summon them would be more than a little much outside of the really high-op games.

Off the top of my head, wraithstrike plus power attack, sadism plus a damage engine, or metamagic'd orbs. They don't actually seem to have much by way of defenses against high end magic. Their spell resistance is kind of meh, and they don't get save bonuses (well, they do get +5 from stats) or immunities. You could seriously kill these guys to death with the same finger of death and baleful polymorph you use on normal opposition. Okay, never mind. I misread that x5 as +5. Their spell resistance is totally insane. Still, that is what you have supernatural spell or shadow illusion (major creation) for.

[Brookshw]

You give up utility summons, and that's it. You get an extra spell slot, accelerated feat advancement and minor flavorful class features.

What exactly can you do with those utility summons that you couldn't otherwise achieve with the Wizard spell list?

For a Cleric, it's true that quite a few effects become considerably more difficult without their summons. For a wizard, the loss isn't out of line with its benefits.

Agreed, its a reasonable PrC and the trade offs are fine.

[icefractal]

The flavor abilities you get aren't that flavorful though. The ultimate power of alien madness is ... slightly more hit points? Even (non-epic) Pseudonatural is a piss-poor template, flavor-wise. 1/day True Strike is only tangentially far-realmish, and transformation is terrible - turn into a tentacled horror and the only effect is -1 for people to attack you. :smallyuk:

If it didn't also make you weaker, people might give it a pass. As is, you're better off just being a straight Wizard and describing your spells in a creepy way.

Or a Psion (Shaper) and be able to shape your constructs into as bizarre a form as you like, if your GM is allergic to refluffing.

[Sith_Happens]

Guh, did I really type that? Must have been a lot more tired than I felt like.:smallredface:

[ekarney]

What if, and I haven't fully read through the class yet

But what if we added additional summon lists to the alienist?

I'll be using the CA version here.
Say for example base class is a Dread Necromancer (Not the optimal route, but nothing with Alienist so deal with it. Plus I'm familiar with the class)
You take Education, Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning at 6th level you'll get Summon Undead III
Meaning you can take all 10 levels of Alienist. Starting at 7HD, cap stoning at 17HD.

Now the issue is, we'd be stuck with the small Pseudonatural Undead list, which while it sounds very interesting it'd get old after 2 levels.

So what if, as we advanced we gave it additional summon lists?

Advancing the spells in a similar way to domains.
For example at Alienist levels 2, 4, 6, and 8.
We give it the choice to add one of the following to it's spell list:
Summon Desert Ally, Summon Natures Ally, Summon Undead, Summon Monster and Conjure Ice Beast.
Every time you hit one of those levels, and select it you get the Summon Y or Conjure spells added to your spell list as though you'd chosen a domain?
So, Dazza the Dread Necro 6/Alienist 2 reaches his second level of Alienist, he chooses Summon undead IV as one of his spells, and then as his "Alienist PseudoDomain" he chooses Summon Desert Ally, because he can, he then gets Summon Desert Ally I - IV (Since that's the highest one he can cast) added to his known spells.
Dazza continues on his merry way, and levels up another couple of times, he's not Dread Necro 6/Alienist 4.
As one of his spells, he chooses Summon Undead V because he likes summoning, he also gains Summon Desert Ally V because of his Alienist PseudoDomain, and then because he gets another Alienist PseudoDomain, he decides a career change from slaying Paladins is in order and decides to live in a winter wonderland and deliver presents to people, so he chooses Conjure Ice Beast, because a horrific pseudonatural ice beast is exactly what people want left at the bottom of their chimneys. He gains Conjure Ice Beast I - V to his known spells.

And so on so forth. If you already have all the Summon/Conjure PseudoDomains as known spells somehow them you can get a metamagic feat or something I dont know.

But would that possibly help bring some versatility to the Alienist?
Or does it bring too much versatility?