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Ever Phasm
2007-05-02, 04:30 PM
I am soon to be starting a campaign in the Ebberon campaign setting (which I personally dislike) with a DM who is known for throwing extra hard enemies at us, railroading and breaking our recommended wealth total 3-fold then taking it all away with no chance of getting it back.

In defense of this I told him I am playing a druid (to help make up for my lack of Ebberon knowledge). I was told to use 28 point buy (for fairness throughout the party) and that is just what I did.

His stats are as follows: STR 8,DEX 9, CON 8, INT 10, WIS 17, CHA 18 (modified for being middle age human)

The Feats: Animal Affinity, Skill Focus: Handle Animal

My 1st level human druid has +13 on his handle animal checks. +4 from skills +4 CHA, +5 feats.

By taking 10 I can rear three 8HD animals in one year. They will be domesticated and loyal to me, they know tricks such as attack, ride, perform. This is without me using spells like charm animal to speed up the process.

More importantly the Megaraptor CR6 has 8HD. The Dire Lion has 8HD, and there are a few more (just from core rule books).

In short, I am broken. with 4 years before the adventure I can have a pride of dire lions in my service or rule the jungles with my tame dinosaurs.

How I get access to the baby animals is no problem. 2 1st level spells will do it. Hide from Animals and Calm Animals.

I am not totally broken because if I go against a monster with the unnatural aura ability, (at 1st level this is unlikely) my animals will not approach it. None of my animal tricks can negate that.

I also need to provide food and shelter for my animals. Also some of my animals are socially unacceptable (save in a zoo or circus).

I wouldn't just have large destructive animals. I have my riding dog animal companion, raven + cat spies, Eagle messengers, horse mounts and many others.

DM wise the only limitations you can put on me is which animals are in your world. (I'm a traveling druid, I probably have been to more than one clime)

Mainly I want to know if I am breaking any rules e.g. animal affinity and skill focus not stacking (for this particular example they are both untyped bonuses so they stack), a limit on how many animals you can have trained at one time, etc.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-02, 04:46 PM
Uh.. oh.


Rear a Wild Animal
To rear an animal means to raise a wild creature from infancy so that it becomes domesticated. A handler can rear as many as three creatures of the same kind at once.

A successfully domesticated animal can be taught tricks at the same time it’s being raised, or it can be taught as a domesticated animal later.


I see no limits, just a maximum rate. Not sure about maturation rate of lions. Anyway, let's see.

Nope. Thou Wilt Be Smited. But other than that, I can't think of anything. So broken :D.

Caelestion
2007-05-02, 04:56 PM
So, basically you're playing a physically average person, not too smart and distinctly the worse physically for his age. He also happens to be extremely back-loaded, as it were, with his Wis and Cha. That's already screaming alarm bells (eggs and baskets come to mind).

This chap is also 35-40 years old minimum (I'm assuming he's human), with the skills to run an apparently successful animal business and the inclination to do it several times a year. This is good and shows thought in your character background. Unfortunately, he's also 1st-level - 0 xp and apparently has never gained ANY despite his years as a successful exotic animal trainer. More alarm bells and these ones are much louder.

Jasdoif
2007-05-02, 04:58 PM
DM wise the only limitations you can put on me is which animals are in your world. (I'm a traveling druid, I probably have been to more than one clime)Oh, no. A DM can disallow anything they please. And allow anything they please. And say the Megaraptor Preservation Society crushed your druid's head into a pulp when the campaign started, if they please. Or simply say "you can't play this character in my game" period, if they please.

I strongly suggest not trying to put restraints on the DM along the lines of "I can break the game and you can't stop me", particularly since you feel this DM is unfair.



Besides which, it's no stretch to say that travelling around with even a single megaraptor would increase the effective party level, which will ramp up the CR of appropriate encounters...and anything that's an appropriate challenge for a CR6 dinosaur will likely slaughter CR1 PCs effortlessly.

melchizedek
2007-05-02, 05:09 PM
I would rule that you don't actually gain your class abilities/skills until the campaign starts. Prior to that, you may have been training or spending time with animals, but until you become an adventurer, you don't have the abilities.

goat
2007-05-02, 05:12 PM
As far as I'm aware, handling an animal requires a move action. That's going to limit how much you can actually do with your menagerie while in combat.

Also, your dire lion gets a saving throw against calm animal, and I'd argue that calming would remove hide from animal.

I'd probably limit you to normal animals; dire ones and dinosaurs are a bit much.

Jack_Simth
2007-05-02, 05:12 PM
Simple response? No.

Slightly less simple response (rules): It's starting wealth, not just starting money. Trained animals are rather valuable.

More Complex Response (Balance): It's not raw power per se that makes a character broken. It's relative power among the party, and what I have to throw at you to make things challenging. If I toss something at the party that's a challenge for the beasties you're trying to bring to bear, all the players are crispy critters. If I don't toss challenging things at you, the game isn't much fun for anyone. That's what makes it broken.

goat
2007-05-02, 05:16 PM
Besides which, why ARE you playing in a campaign which is in a setting you don't like and DM'd by someone you don't appear too fond of? If you're deliberately trying to break their game, it suggests to me that you're not too happy about playing it.

Yvian
2007-05-02, 05:32 PM
I can see a couple of problems.

First, you are going to be in management. You are going to need to feed this circus. And while they are tame, have you every heard about hearding cats? Try Lions, and Bears, and oh my. I mean sheep and cattle are domesticated and tame, but still... And I don't even want to think what would happen if you needed to go into a city or underground.

Second, as you adventure, you are going to lose a couple of your animals. How are you going to replace them?

This just reminds me off all the messy aspects of taking the leadership feet and having to handle a score of henchmen. Not easy. And I don't think you are going to get the pay back that you need.

I am sorry, but I am having flashback to Timothy Treadwell, a man who was eaten by bears. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Treadwell.

And I could agree with Jack Smith - Having so many animals would either be a wealth thing or a leadership thing. Are you starting at 1st level? Or at a higher level?

What I might do is become a druid and take Vow Of Poverty. Then you don't have to worry about the DM of striping you of your stuff.

Caelestion
2007-05-02, 06:48 PM
Well, the DM is then justified in saying that you are not allowed to own the animals or their young. Bye bye already-thin-as-it-is character motivation.

Hearkening back to your first post, the DM can also say that you have not been anywhere and that you have precisely 0 days before the campaign starts. You do have 0 xp and 1st-level wealth after all.

puppyavenger
2007-05-02, 06:59 PM
why are you playing in a setting you don't like with a dm you aparently disangree with anyway? As far as I can see your either good friends, in which case nothing can help, or they are the only gaming group for a while around in which case try pbp

brian c
2007-05-02, 08:03 PM
In short, I am broken. with 4 years before the adventure I can have a pride of dire lions in my service or rule the jungles with my tame dinosaurs.

There is no time before the adventure. You don't just get to say "oh, my character is middle-aged, therefore he has X and Y equipment" (or animals, or feats, or whatever). The campaign starts, and unless you start above level 1 then you get absolutely no credit for anything that may or may not have happened "previously".

Caelestion
2007-05-02, 08:11 PM
Oh. I just thought of something else. Since your age modifier boosted your Int to 10, you did of course only have 12 skill points at creation. (4 for Druid, -1 for Int 9; result multiplied by 4.)

jameswilliamogle
2007-05-02, 08:11 PM
Play a dragonwrought kobold, lose the animal affinity feat for it, and get slightly better stats.

Or, play a human commoner with mercantile background, skill focus handle animal, max ranks handle animal, and own 200 bison that you command to stampede your enemies (i believe that does 20d6 per round.. it might be more, I don't remember).

Or just play Pun-pun. Honestly, it looks like you are punishing a DM for being bad about wealth... you can do it without causing hard feelings just by playing an artificer, and crafting.

Caelestion
2007-05-02, 08:14 PM
Or even the epitome of cheese - Warforged Artificer (yeah, that's SO LA +0). I'll just make items round the clock and my unseen crafter can double up or cover for me. Either way.

Inyssius Tor
2007-05-02, 08:16 PM
Brian C. is right. Everything you did "before the adventure" is represented by your class abilities, x4 skills, and starting equipment. If you want to do something like that, it would be an adventure.

Ever Phasm
2007-05-03, 08:58 AM
I talked to my DM about it and he has put some limits on the sort of animals I can have. The adventure is on a boat and apparently I've lived in a large forest all my life. I know longer desire super powerful animals with me. Just some for spies (ravens or cats), a mount (if ever useful by the sound of it) and 1 body guard that I can make appear socially acceptable (probably a dire ape but maybe a simple bear).

He thinks its fair for me to have a zoo with me (assuming I come up with a good backstory), and he hinted that I will probably end up in areas where my animals will not be able to help me. And that there is a chance of running into some very dangerous things (very^5 for 1st level adventurers).

And I have reasons for playing with him. I just feel it would be unwise to talk about my personal life on an open forum.

That being said can anyone tell me what animal with less than 8HD would make a good body guard. (Its terrain must be temperate forest)

Caelestion
2007-05-03, 09:22 AM
The generic wolf is always nice, particularly for a 1st-level druid...

InaVegt
2007-05-03, 09:24 AM
How about a dire wolf, there's a literary precedent for humans having dire wolves tag along, it's from temperate forests, has 6 HD and has no place in a 1st level party.

Caelestion
2007-05-03, 09:30 AM
It's about right in a 7th-level party, if my memory of the druid companions table doesn't let me down.

Ever Phasm
2007-05-03, 09:47 AM
Maybe a pack of wolves for hunting you down!!!

Mwa ha ha ha ha ha!

Sorry, had a brief alignment change.

jameswilliamogle
2007-05-03, 09:57 AM
If its ordinary wolf vs. riding dog, riding dog is slightly better, imo. still good movement (10' less, but its 10' you don't need), gets the bite attack (when trained for war), but has slightly better stats.

Also look into the back of MM2 for using Handle Animal to apply the Warbeast template to an ordinary animal.

Or, check out this link (from the jerks who brought you pun-pun...):
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=638839

I believe A&E Guide had prices for infant animals. You could look there too.

Annarrkkii
2007-05-03, 10:06 AM
By this logic, a Rogue could start with near infinite belongings, since he has used his Sleight of Hand for the last 4 years, and the bard can have a small fortune from Performing, since he's had... 1461 days to perform. Your starting wealth is the limit on what you can start with. No other factor affects what you start with—skill, age, size, race—unless your DM says it does. So this one isn't going to fly.

Yakk
2007-05-03, 10:49 AM
*nod*, those things should be purchased using starting wealth.

Or you should be taking the first year out of your adventure to train your first wild animal. It will take 2 to 5 years to mature to full MM stats. Meanwhile, everyone else is out adventuring. :)

I suspect the party, even if it dies a number of times, will be well ahead of your animal training act.

Tor the Fallen
2007-05-03, 11:03 AM
I can see a couple of problems.

First, you are going to be in management. You are going to need to feed this circus. And while they are tame, have you every heard about hearding cats? Try Lions, and Bears, and oh my. I mean sheep and cattle are domesticated and tame, but still... And I don't even want to think what would happen if you needed to go into a city or underground.

That's what the handle animal skill is there for; herding cats.


Second, as you adventure, you are going to lose a couple of your animals. How are you going to replace them?

Who cares? He'll have wildshape soon enough, and he's a full caster.


This just reminds me off all the messy aspects of taking the leadership feet and having to handle a score of henchmen. Not easy. And I don't think you are going to get the pay back that you need.

Leave the henchman at home or out of the melee. Followers aren't for fighting, they're for taking care of the keep, pouring boiling oil on attackers, carrying loot, and using buff spells.


Oh. I just thought of something else. Since your age modifier boosted your Int to 10, you did of course only have 12 skill points at creation. (4 for Druid, -1 for Int 9; result multiplied by 4.)

That's not how it works, especially after this little jewel

Well, the DM is then justified in saying that you are not allowed to own the animals or their young. Bye bye already-thin-as-it-is character motivation.

Hearkening back to your first post, the DM can also say that you have not been anywhere and that you have precisely 0 days before the campaign starts. You do have 0 xp and 1st-level wealth after all.

So not only does the character pop into existence fully created, but a small but infintesimally short time afterwards, becomes middle aged.

TheDarkOne
2007-05-03, 11:18 AM
The one reason this is actually not allowed is because of starting wealth. If something can be considered owned by your character it has to come out of the starting wealth. Doesn't matter if it's a sword your old mentor gave you, or a spell book your character bought when he save up enough money. Start wealth just tells you the sum total value of all the equipment a first level character would have, usually including pets.

silvermesh
2007-05-03, 11:24 AM
unfortunately all of the things you are implying your character does "before the adventure" require rolls, these are things that you can only do in active gameplay, because what if you fall down a hole and your invisibility to animals wears off before you can get out, as a first level druid you do not have the equipment or moneys necessary to make 100% certain that nothing could ever go wrong, and this is the only type of situation that you can just say happened in your background. what if there was an angry high-level druid protecting those animals you came to kidnap? you either have to assume the cost of the animals(which is not cheap), or acquire them in active gameplay. Your DM is more than welcome to run a solo adventure for you to help you try to obtain your animals before the main campaign, but it is unlikely that in the course of entering dangerous wilderness lands you will not only gain no experience, but never be in any danger.

Caelestion
2007-05-03, 11:29 AM
Well Tor, of course his DM is free to rule otherwise, but Everphasm is trying to gain the maximum possible benefit whilst sticking to the rules as widely as possible without being wrong. As such (unless you can believe that he didn't have any class levels at all until he was middle aged), then he did indeed only have Int 9 at 1st-level.

jameswilliamogle
2007-05-03, 12:42 PM
Well, the Mercantile Background feet gives you more starting wealth, if I remember.

Ever Phasm
2007-05-03, 02:07 PM
Thankyou very much. I knew there was something wrong with what I had done. Skip Williams, Monte Cook and Jonathan Tweet knew what they were doing.

With that being said, my animal companion is free but how much are infant animals worth? None of my books say anything about animal prices. (save the MM which has them for things like hippogriffs, giant eagles and such or the PHB for cows and Ox and chickens).

My DM has no clue how much a baby wolf is worth, or a baby dire ape, etc.

Once play starts of course I can tame every animal I come across. And not all animals would go adventuring with me. I would use some to guard my sacred pool. Some for delivering messages. Thus eliminating them from the action for a long time and others will just be incompatible with the adventure.

jameswilliamogle
2007-05-03, 02:39 PM
arms and equipment guide has lots of prices of animals. i'd consult w/ the DM first, though... this whole thing leaves a sour taste in my mouth...

If I were you, just buy a sling, leather armor, wood shield, and a bunch of riding dogs at normal PHB prices.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-03, 02:52 PM
Hey, I know this guy. And the DM :/.

Somebody is at least half-seriously considering playing our lord of cheese.

I'm just using a human psywar..

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-03, 03:23 PM
Since the zoo part of your question seems to be settled I would like to address another part of your character.

If you just want to play a caster Druid your 8 CON may not be a problem, but if you want to wildshape and go into melee you are going to be a little low on HP, since your HP does not increase with your wildshaped CON after the newest wildshape/alternate form errata.

Just a thought.
It might not even be relevant if you do not play with the "new" Druid errata.