Crusader & Paladin

[3drinks]

So, Crusader is solidly a tier 3. ToB classes are said to have a "low optimization floor and a high optimization ceiling" meaning it's really hard (you have to actively try) to gimp yourself to tier 4, but even with top notch optimization, you still aren't going to break tier 3.

Paladin is commonly a tier 5 - it does one thing, generally pretty well though that one thing isn't always needed, and the class suffers from MAD. The class gets half divine casting, generally pretty late (getting lv 1-2 divine spells ~lv10 is slooooowww) and a Mount that isn't always relevant b/c of campaign settings, which is arguably their biggest feature (if not Divine Grace).

So my question is, Paladins & Crusaders share a lot of flavour, and similar class features. If you Gestalt the two of them together, you still have full BAB, d12 HD, and two good saves. You have the same maneuver pool (which iirc, doesn't include Iron Heart anyway). But does this combination put the alleged class into tier 2? Or is it still a tier 3 (after all it doesn't get full lv9 arcane/divine spells, it still is MAD, it's skill points don't improve much [if at all] and it's still doing the same general role. Oh and it's still got the LG requirement). Does Paladin offer enough extra incentives to justify Crusader being bumped up a tier here?

Discuss!

[OldTrees1]

1) Tier 2 is defined by the ability to break the campaign if not stopped by the DM or the Player. This is a qualitative change from Tier 3 so no amount of gestating will break this barrier.
2) Since Tier 2 is defined by a negative gameplay capacity, why would you be aiming for it? Aim for high Tier 3 instead(versatile, always useful, can do many things, and is very good at their specialties). Maybe add some non campaign-breaking strategic abilities (above Tier 3 but below Tier 2).

[Troacctid]

You get into T2 by having game-breaking, world-shattering abilities. All this does is bump up your numbers. So no, still T3. Also, Crusader really doesn't need a power boost.

[prufock]

I made a class (http://fulcrumdnd.wikidot.com/paladin) that was basically gestalted paladin, knight, and marshal. Still only about tier 3, maybe high 4.

[ComaVision]

If you want to make the Paladin higher tier, just give it Cleric casting on the Bard spell progression.

Also, ToB is "high floor, low ceiling." Neither class has a d12 hit dice. They both only have good Fort saves. Crusader has more skill points than Paladin.

[3drinks]

2) Since Tier 2 is defined by a negative gameplay capacity, why would you be aiming for it? Aim for high Tier 3 instead.


You get into T2 by having game-breaking, world-shattering abilities. All this does is bump up your numbers. So no, still T3. Also, Crusader really doesn't need a power boost.

I'm not aiming for it, I was checking to make sure the proposed change isn't breaking to the next tier. I suspected it's not, but I wanted to make sure.

It's for a [potential] campaign to build interest for certain classes at certain tier points (like a 3-4) while not just axing some off the map when i can splice them together instead.

[3drinks]

If you want to make the Paladin higher tier, just give it Cleric casting on the Bard spell progression.

Also, ToB is "high floor, low ceiling." Neither class has a d12 hit dice. They both only have good Fort saves. Crusader has more skill points than Paladin.

Really? I coulda sworn Crusader had a d10 because it's "the tank" of the ToB books. I know Warblade has a d12 though. Don't know why I keep thinking Paladin's have good Fort & Will.

Figures I'd get my phrasing wrong. :/

[Red Fel]

I'm not aiming for it, I was checking to make sure the proposed change isn't breaking to the next tier. I suspected it's not, but I wanted to make sure.

It's for a [potential] campaign to build interest for certain classes at certain tier points (like a 3-4) while not just axing some off the map when i can splice them together instead.

Basically, the way to push any class over the line from Tier (Any) to Tier 1-2 is to add full casting progression and a suitable list. Partial casting or fixed list will get you as far as Tier 3, but to cross the line you need something like a Sorcerer, Wizard, or Cleric.

That said, gestalting pretty much anything with one of those bumps it immediately into the corresponding tier. Paladin//Sorcerer, for example, is Tier 2, simply because of Sorc casting. Warblade//Wizard is Tier 1 for the same reason. Heck, Monk//Cleric jumps up there, too.

Barring that, Tier 3 becomes the ceiling. You can give any role more utility and higher numbers, but until you have a spell list that cracks the game open like a walnut, Tier 3 is the peak.

[3drinks]

Basically, the way to push any class over the line from Tier (Any) to Tier 1-2 is to add full casting progression and a suitable list. Partial casting or fixed list will get you as far as Tier 3, but to cross the line you need something like a Sorcerer, Wizard, or Cleric.

That said, gestalting pretty much anything with one of those bumps it immediately into the corresponding tier. Paladin//Sorcerer, for example, is Tier 2, simply because of Sorc casting. Warblade//Wizard is Tier 1 for the same reason. Heck, Monk//Cleric jumps up there, too.

Barring that, Tier 3 becomes the ceiling. You can give any role more utility and higher numbers, but until you have a spell list that cracks the game open like a walnut, Tier 3 is the peak.

Gotcha, that is #fabulous to know. Now I won't be as scared to "mash stuff together" - so long as it isn't tier 1/2, which it is not.

[Flickerdart]

Gotcha, that is #fabulous to know. Now I won't be as scared to "mash stuff together" - so long as it isn't tier 1/2, which it is not.
The thing about tiers is that they're not internally on par with one another. A crusader is T3, and so is a bard//paladin, but the latter is far more versatile.

[Troacctid]

Gotcha, that is #fabulous to know. Now I won't be as scared to "mash stuff together" - so long as it isn't tier 1/2, which it is not.

I wouldn't say that. Balancing classes isn't just about making sure they all fall in the same tier. That's more like "Balance 101: Introduction to Balance." There's a lot more to worry about too, like how classes scale and drop off, how they interact with multiclassing, what parts of them are drawing players to the class, and so on.

Besides that, the tier system doesn't necessarily accurately represent how classes play out in real games. Sorcerers often turn out weaker than Beguilers, Rogues often turn out stronger than Factotums, and Warblades frequently outshine all of them.

[atemu1234]

If you want to make the Paladin higher tier, just give it Cleric casting on the Bard spell progression.

Also, ToB is "high floor, low ceiling." Neither class has a d12 hit dice. They both only have good Fort saves. Crusader has more skill points than Paladin.

Yeah, it's pretty difficult to run a Warblade or Crusader that isn't already just better than a fighter or paladin (heck, or even a barbarian).

[Taveena]

Yeah, it's pretty difficult to run a Warblade or Crusader that isn't already just better than a fighter or paladin (heck, or even a barbarian).

A barbarian can outdamage any ToB class, but that's ALL they can do. (They can split their focus and go intimidate, I guess?) Even the Warblade, the narrowest of the classes, has mobility, debuff, and buff options that the Barbarian just doesn't have no matter HOW they're built.

[Troacctid]

A barbarian can outdamage any ToB class, but that's ALL they can do. (They can split their focus and go intimidate, I guess?) Even the Warblade, the narrowest of the classes, has mobility, debuff, and buff options that the Barbarian just doesn't have no matter HOW they're built.

And Barbarians still only outdamage ToB classes while charging, and even then only with the proper ACFs. If you're just using the core Barbarian, then your 1/day rage is contributing less damage than the Warblade's at-will Punishing Stance.