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Bobbybobby99
2015-07-21, 09:00 PM
I find the current DnD alignment system a bit too simplified for my tastes. Thusly, I divided each alignment aspect (good, evil, chaos, law) into eight expressions.

Each alignment axis is divided into eight components, each divided into two expressions. Each component has a total of twenty-five points, divided between the first and second expression. Total up the total points for good expressions and orderly expressions, and consult the following.

175-200 points. Exalted/Axiomatic. 12 to increase, 11-1 to decrease.
145-175 points. Good/Orderly. 11-12 to increase, 10-1 to decrease.
115-145 points. Neutral (Good/Orderly). 9-12 to increase, 8-1 to decrease.
85-115 points. Neutral. 7-12 to increase, 6-1 to decrease
55-85 points. Neutral (Evil/Chaotic). 5-12 to increase, 4-1 to decrease.
25-55 points. Evil/Chaotic. 3-12 to increase, 2-1 to decrease.
0-25 points. Vile/Anarchic. 2-12 to increase, 1 to decrease.

When checking for increases or decreases in a good, orderly, chaotic, or evil traits, roll the indicated number. If successful, increase or decrease the appropriate trait (and apply the opposite to it's opposite) by the following indicated number. Changes should occur at the end of a session; a simple tally (likely kept secret) for each PC is a good idea.
Grand. 3 point increase or decrease.
Major. 2 point increase or decrease.
Significant. 1 point increase or decrease.
Minor. 50% chance of 1 point increase or decrease.

These show the eight components of the two axis, and the two expressions of those sixteen components.

Good versus Evil...

Temperance/Gluttony.
Generosity/Avarice.
Modesty/Pride.
Kindness/Envy.
Hope/Despair.
Chastity/Lust.
Passion/Sloth.
Peace/Wrath.

Order versus Chaos...

Truthfulness/Prevarication.
Conformity/Independence.
Prudence/Recklessness.
Predictability/Spontaneity.
Loyalty/Introversion.
Honor/Adaptability (moral).
Respect (for tradition)/Creativity.
Justice/Rebelliousness.

A person's expressions define how they act in most situations. Essentially, the higher an expression, the more that person acts in that way. Someone with temperance 25 and gluttony 0 will act temperate (mild, avoiding excess physical or mental) and will effectively never act gluttonous (acting in excess, overeating, being wasteful). Someone with the opposite would almost always act gluttonous, and would never refuse excess. Someone with a 12 or 13 in both would act gluttonous about half the time, temperate about half the time, and be overall average.

A persons overall alignment is the sum of their expressions. Being, say, exalted means little on it's own, other than the fact that you act in an almost exclusively virtuous manor. The specifics of your virtues vary; one exalted man may be averagely lustful, but otherwise near perfect in behavior. Another might have a 22 or 23 in every good expression, acting almost entirely good in everything but with occasional vices.

With regard to individual expressions.

21-25. Acts almost exclusively within the bounds of that expression. Almost never acts within the bounds of the opposite expression in any considerable fashion.
16-20. Acts generally within the bounds of that expression, with frequent exception. Acts within the bounds of the opposite expression in minor, frivolous ways.
11-15. Acts within the bounds of that expression about half the time, give or take. Acts within the bounds of the opposite expression about half the time, often significantly.
6-10. Acts within the expression in minor, frivolous ways, with varying frequency. Acts within the bounds of the opposite expression more significantly, and more often.
1-5. Acts within the bound of the expression very rarely, or almost never. Acts within the bounds of the opposite expression almost all the time, very often.
0. Never acts within the bound of the expression, or does so in very minor ways that most people would barely notice. Pretty much always acts in the opposite way.

Quick definitions.

Temperance. The personal moderation of excess; never giving into extremism, practicing moderation, abstention, and deferred gratification.
Generosity. The personal practice of charity; never hoarding for oneself, giving to the needy, sharing with the needy, avoidance of secrecy.
Modesty. The personal practice of thinking of yourself less; avoidance of boasting or bragging, deferral of accomplishment, positive extroversion.
Kindness. The personal practice of maintaining a positive, friendly attitude; thinking well of others, being reasonably trusting, being kind.
Hope. The personal practice of never losing faith; always knowing that things will work out well in the end, never giving in to temptation to give up.
Chastity. The practice of avoiding sexual conduct outside of appropriate times; practicing courtly love, maintains moral and physical cleanliness.
Passion. The practice of doing whatever you do passionately and fully; committing to things rather than leaving them unfinished, reasonable zealotry.
Peace. The practice of looking for the best option, rather than the easiest; avoiding violence towards man or beast, avoiding turmoil.

Gluttony. The practice of desiring, and taking, excess; taking more than your fair share, being addicted, being overzealous, overeating.
Avarice. The practice of idolizing money and material objects; impersonally stealing money, pointlessly spending money, hoarding money, loving money.
Pride. The practice of desiring attention; craving the spotlight, boasting or bragging, believing oneself always right, overconfidence.
Envy. The practice of desiring other's possessions or circumstance; pointless theft of any kind, taking pleasure in other's misfortunes, resentment, hatred.
Despair. The practice of giving up on life; being overly cynical, giving up because of pessimism rather than sloth, being depressed or overly mournful.
Lust. The practice of overly desiring sensation and pleasure; excessive sensual conduct, forceful sensual conduct, giving into physical temptation.
Sloth. The practice of laziness and apathy; excessive need for rest, dislike of actual work, lack of passion or feeling, being uncaring, being callous.
Wrath. The practice of desiring violence; resorting easily to violence, enjoying violence, desire for unrighteous vengeance, blood-thirstiness, murder.

Truthfulness. The practice of keeping one's word and oath, avoiding deception and secrecy of all kinds, and never or very rarely outright lying, however white.
Conformity. The practice of keeping towards expected behavior, thought, and physical appearance for one's social group, while maintaining norms.
Prudence. The practice of being cautious and thinking things through in all situations that demand it, and overall avoiding risks.
Predictability. The practice of keeping to predetermined patterns of behavior, based on a personal self concept, and avoiding randomness.
Loyalty. The practice of forming and maintaining bonds to people, places, deities, or ideals, and avoiding betrayal or other disloyalty.
Honor. The practice of obeying a cultural code of conduct or code of honor, such as a paladin's code, or Bushido, or a more standard one of chivalry.
Respect. The practice of respecting traditions and customs, including laws, the practice of politeness and courteousness, and authority figures.
Justice. The practice of obeying and enforcing laws, including the laws of one's own moral system, in addition to more blanket enforcement.

Prevarication. The practice of avoiding honesty and trending towards deception and secrecy of all kinds, being prone to outright lies.
Independence. The practice of keeping away from expected behavior, thought, and physical appearance for one's social group, according to one's own standards.
Recklessness. The practice of being incautious, and not thinking before you act, unless the situation utterly demands it, and overall being prone to risks.
Spontaneity. The practice of straying away from predetermined patterns of behavior, and overall acting in a semi-random, spontaneous manor.
Introversion. The practice of keeping away from close personal bonds, and tearing down those bonds that do form, and otherwise betraying them.
Adaptability. The practice of keeping a loose, flexible set of morals, to be redefined as the situation merits, so as to best suit to situation.
Creativity. The practice of disrespecting established traditions and customs, instead creating and then tearing down new ideas and practices.
Rebelliousness. The practice of disobeying laws and aiding those who don't abide by them, with a general disrespect for even one's own moral system.

RedMage125
2015-07-22, 08:27 PM
I find the current DnD alignment system a bit too simplified for my tastes. Thusly, I divided each alignment aspect (good, evil, chaos, law) into eight expressions.

Each alignment axis is divided into eight components, each divided into two expressions. Each component has a total of twenty-five points, divided between the first and second expression. Total up the total points for good expressions and orderly expressions, and consult the following.

175-200 points. Exalted/Axiomatic. 12 to increase, 11-1 to decrease.
150-175 points. Good/Orderly. 11-12 to increase, 10-1 to decrease.
125-150 points. Neutral (Good/Orderly). 9-12 to increase, 8-1 to decrease.
75-125 points. Neutral. 7-12 to increase, 6-1 to decrease
50-75 points. Neutral (Evil/Chaotic). 5-12 to increase, 4-1 to decrease.
25-50 points. Evil/Chaotic. 3-12 to increase, 2-1 to decrease.
0-25 points. Vile/Anarchic. 2-12 to increase, 1 to decrease.

When checking for increases or decreases in a good, orderly, chaotic, or evil traits, roll the indicated number. If successful, increase or decrease the appropriate trait (and apply the opposite to it's opposite) by the following indicated number. Changes should occur at the end of a session; a simple tally (likely kept secret) for each PC is a good idea.
Grand. 3 point increase or decrease.
Major. 2 point increase or decrease.
Significant. 1 point increase or decrease.
Minor. 50% chance of 1 point increase or decrease.

These show the eight components of the two axis, and the two expressions of those sixteen components.

Good versus Evil...

Temperance/Gluttony.
Generosity/Avarice.
Modesty/Pride.
Kindness/Envy.
Hope/Despair.
Chastity/Lust.
Passion/Sloth.
Peace/Wrath.

Order versus Chaos...

Truthfulness/Prevarication.
Conformity/Individuality.
Honesty/Rebelliousness.
Prudence/Spontaneity.
Loyalty/Independence.
Honor/Adaptability.
Respect/Creativity.
Justice/Hedonism.
Some constructive feedback for you:
I would categorize the opposite of Envy as Contentment, not Kindness. And the opposite of Sloth is not Passion, but Diligence. (Yay Afterlife by Lucasarts!)

Your Order/Chaos needs some rework, and I have some suggestions.
Truthfulness and Honesty are redundant, and you have them as opposing different virtues of chaos. Rebelliousness being opposed to Honesty doesn't even make sense. Rebelliousness is the opposite of Conformity. Prudence and Spontaneity do not work as opposites. Prudence would be opposed by Recklessness. Spontaneity would be opposed by Predictability.

The rest are just a mess, I'm sorry. Loyalty and Independence are not opposites at all. Nor is Honor an antonym of Adaptability, in fact, one MUST be adaptable to remain Honorable in compromising situations. Respect/Creativity is entirely non-sequitur, as is Justice/Hedonsim. Hedonism is giving into sensual desires, and is thus a composite of Gluttony and Lust (both virtues of evil).

goto124
2015-07-22, 08:39 PM
Are we still associating certain 'attributes' with 'Good' and 'Evil', 'Law' and 'Chaos'?

Is it meant to be easily inserted into any edition of DnD, such that players and DMs have a framework with which to sort characters into the different alignments?

Bobbybobby99
2015-07-23, 11:51 AM
In response to RedMage: Thanks for the suggestions as far as the law/chaos section, since I sort of cobbled that together. Honesty was intended in the old sense (in the sense of being law abiding) but that overlaps with justice so I got rid of it. Hence why it would be opposed to rebelliousness.
I also got rid of the prudence/spontaneity divide, and instead got prudence/recklessness and predictability/spontaneity, which nicely fills in the gap left by honesty.
You were right about justice, in that it was complete nonsense, so I made the opposite of justice rebelliousness, which still doesn't make much sense but is better than before.
Loyalty is now opposed to selfishness (which itself seems evil, in the sense of general greed, but avarice is more specifically material so that's all right).
I clarified that I meant adaptability in the moral sense (having flexible morals) and that respect referred to a respect for tradition, rather than general respect.

In response to goto: I'm assuming that you aren't using the fourth edition conception of alignment, but it would work 5th, 3rd, or ADAD, if I'm remebering correctly. It could probably work with fourth, if you edited it a little.

EDIT: I also don't like the idea of contentment being 'good'. It implies that ambition is evil, which it isn't.

dream
2015-07-23, 12:05 PM
What do the components, aspects, and expressions mean? How does an Exalted PC behave? You've taken a fairly easy to understand mechanic and turned it into something more complex. That's fine, but your added complexity requires added definition so people can grasp it. Right now, it makes no sense to me in regard to how a character will behave under normal situations. Maybe you're assuming people will get your system, but what if they're new to the game?

Bobbybobby99
2015-07-23, 12:18 PM
To dream: I tried clarifying. Someone with temperance 25 almost always acts temperate, because otherwise they wouldn't have temperance 25. Is it still unclear what I meant? I'm sorry if I was assuming that people would get it.

dream
2015-07-23, 12:27 PM
To dream: I tried clarifying. Someone with temperance 25 almost always acts temperate, because otherwise they wouldn't have temperance 25. Is it still unclear what I meant? I'm sorry if I was assuming that people would get it.
What does Temperance 25 mean? How does one roleplay it? That's my question here. Gygax clearly defined what each alignment meant; what lawful means, what evil means, what good means, ect. The concept of alignment and how a character/monster possessing a certain alignment behaved was well-defined (for a TTRPG).

I don't see that with your system. "Temperance 25" needs a clear definition so players/GMs know how to roleplay it, or it has no function outside of someone saying "That character is Temperance 25". Kind of like saying "That character is boiwoodlerickasup." Wha?:smallconfused:

Also, if, say, a character gets a magic item that changes their alignment to the opposite of what it was originally, do your alignments have polar opposites?

Thanks for helping me along here. I'm slower than most.

Bobbybobby99
2015-07-23, 12:47 PM
To dream: Don't say that you're slower than most, if anything you're quicker than most for pointing out a flaw in the system. I think, just to curb any further confusion, I'll write up official definitions.

EDIT: To dream: I've added definitions for the individual traits now. Is this helpful, or did I completely miss your point?

EDIT 2: To dream: Also, yes, their individual expressions probably would flip. That's a sufficiently rare circumstance that the DM should probably just make a ruling, rather than consulting something. (if a DM actually uses this! I hope someone does; that would be very personally satisfying)

EDIT 3: I also changed the ranges, so that neutrality is a bit less of the default.

goto124
2015-07-23, 09:44 PM
Why do we even have Helms of Opposite Alignment? Those sort of items completely change someone's personality, and it's really nasty to have that happen to your character out of nowhere. How do you suddenly swap out one part of the personality and keep everything else intact anyway?

I agree with the 'Rulings not rules' bit, though only if you're actually doing it- I personally agree more strongly with 'don't do it'. Then again, I have a personal hatred for mental affects and other stuff that tries to change the way your character thinks.


EDIT: I also don't like the idea of contentment being 'good'. It implies that ambition is evil, which it isn't.

I'll say Contentment is Lawful, since Contentment means being happy with whatever's already there, and not wanting to change that status quo. Or maybe that's nothing to do with Law/Chaos either.

Edit: Got this from another thread:



Law prefers evolutionary change. A Lawful empire might go to war with its neighbour to claim more land to extract taxes from, or send off explorers to set up a colony where people can exploit resources, but these are both things in service to the way that Empire does its things. They had taxes and resources before, after all. When developing something new, a lawful society will follow a careful approach, with government oversight of experiments and scrutiny of every new discovery to see how it will affect things and whether or not it is worthwhile to go through with it in the long run.

Chaos prefers revolutionary change - sudden bursts of spontaneous progress that brings qualitative instead of quantitative change. The "Law of the Jungle" means that everyone quickly adopts the new tech, because if you don't, someone who does have it will eat you (metaphorically, or maybe even literally). Conquering new land? The motivation is more likely to be liberating a people (from their oppressive, unfriendly-to-chaos monarchy), exploiting a unique resource (whether natural resources or skilled scientists), or getting access to a port or trade route the empire didn't have before. Sending out colonies? The emphasis will be on finding previously unseen treasures, animals, and so forth in the new world.

I'll say contentment, or change, has nothing to do with alignment.

Reltzik
2015-07-23, 11:10 PM
I find the current DnD alignment system a bit too simplified for my tastes. Thusly, I divided each alignment aspect (good, evil, chaos, law) into eight expressions.

Each alignment axis is divided into eight components, each divided into two expressions. Each component has a total of twenty-five points, divided between the first and second expression. Total up the total points for good expressions and orderly expressions, and consult the following.

175-200 points. Exalted/Axiomatic. 12 to increase, 11-1 to decrease.
145-175 points. Good/Orderly. 11-12 to increase, 10-1 to decrease.
115-145 points. Neutral (Good/Orderly). 9-12 to increase, 8-1 to decrease.
85-115 points. Neutral. 7-12 to increase, 6-1 to decrease
55-85 points. Neutral (Evil/Chaotic). 5-12 to increase, 4-1 to decrease.
25-55 points. Evil/Chaotic. 3-12 to increase, 2-1 to decrease.
0-25 points. Vile/Anarchic. 2-12 to increase, 1 to decrease.

When checking for increases or decreases in a good, orderly, chaotic, or evil traits, roll the indicated number. If successful, increase or decrease the appropriate trait (and apply the opposite to it's opposite) by the following indicated number. Changes should occur at the end of a session; a simple tally (likely kept secret) for each PC is a good idea.
Grand. 3 point increase or decrease.
Major. 2 point increase or decrease.
Significant. 1 point increase or decrease.
Minor. 50% chance of 1 point increase or decrease.

These show the eight components of the two axis, and the two expressions of those sixteen components.

Good versus Evil...

Temperance/Gluttony.
Generosity/Avarice.
Modesty/Pride.
Kindness/Envy.
Hope/Despair.
Chastity/Lust.
Passion/Sloth.
Peace/Wrath.

Order versus Chaos...

Truthfulness/Prevarication.
Conformity/Independence.
Prudence/Recklessness.
Predictability/Spontaneity.
Loyalty/Introversion.
Honor/Adaptability (moral).
Respect (for tradition)/Creativity.
Justice/Rebelliousness.

A person's expressions define how they act in most situations. Essentially, the higher an expression, the more that person acts in that way. Someone with temperance 25 and gluttony 0 will act temperate (mild, avoiding excess physical or mental) and will effectively never act gluttonous (acting in excess, overeating, being wasteful). Someone with the opposite would almost always act gluttonous, and would never refuse excess. Someone with a 12 or 13 in both would act gluttonous about half the time, temperate about half the time, and be overall average.

A persons overall alignment is the sum of their expressions. Being, say, exalted means little on it's own, other than the fact that you act in an almost exclusively virtuous manor. The specifics of your virtues vary; one exalted man may be averagely lustful, but otherwise near perfect in behavior. Another might have a 22 or 23 in every good expression, acting almost entirely good in everything but with occasional vices.

With regard to individual expressions.

21-25. Acts almost exclusively within the bounds of that expression. Almost never acts within the bounds of the opposite expression in any considerable fashion.
16-20. Acts generally within the bounds of that expression, with frequent exception. Acts within the bounds of the opposite expression in minor, frivolous ways.
11-15. Acts within the bounds of that expression about half the time, give or take. Acts within the bounds of the opposite expression about half the time, often significantly.
6-10. Acts within the expression in minor, frivolous ways, with varying frequency. Acts within the bounds of the opposite expression more significantly, and more often.
1-5. Acts within the bound of the expression very rarely, or almost never. Acts within the bounds of the opposite expression almost all the time, very often.
0. Never acts within the bound of the expression, or does so in very minor ways that most people would barely notice. Pretty much always acts in the opposite way.

Quick definitions.

Temperance. The personal moderation of excess; never giving into extremism, practicing moderation, abstention, and deferred gratification.
Generosity. The personal practice of charity; never hoarding for oneself, giving to the needy, sharing with the needy, avoidance of secrecy.
Modesty. The personal practice of thinking of yourself less; avoidance of boasting or bragging, deferral of accomplishment, positive extroversion.
Kindness. The personal practice of maintaining a positive, friendly attitude; thinking well of others, being reasonably trusting, being kind.
Hope. The personal practice of never losing faith; always knowing that things will work out well in the end, never giving in to temptation to give up.
Chastity. The practice of avoiding sexual conduct outside of appropriate times; practicing courtly love, maintains moral and physical cleanliness.
Passion. The practice of doing whatever you do passionately and fully; committing to things rather than leaving them unfinished, reasonable zealotry.
Peace. The practice of looking for the best option, rather than the easiest; avoiding violence towards man or beast, avoiding turmoil.

Gluttony. The practice of desiring, and taking, excess; taking more than your fair share, being addicted, being overzealous, overeating.
Avarice. The practice of idolizing money and material objects; impersonally stealing money, pointlessly spending money, hoarding money, loving money.
Pride. The practice of desiring attention; craving the spotlight, boasting or bragging, believing oneself always right, overconfidence.
Envy. The practice of desiring other's possessions or circumstance; pointless theft of any kind, taking pleasure in other's misfortunes, resentment, hatred.
Despair. The practice of giving up on life; being overly cynical, giving up because of pessimism rather than sloth, being depressed or overly mournful.
Lust. The practice of overly desiring sensation and pleasure; excessive sensual conduct, forceful sensual conduct, giving into physical temptation.
Sloth. The practice of laziness and apathy; excessive need for rest, dislike of actual work, lack of passion or feeling, being uncaring, being callous.
Wrath. The practice of desiring violence; resorting easily to violence, enjoying violence, desire for unrighteous vengeance, blood-thirstiness, murder.

Truthfulness. The practice of keeping one's word and oath, avoiding deception and secrecy of all kinds, and never or very rarely outright lying, however white.
Conformity. The practice of keeping towards expected behavior, thought, and physical appearance for one's social group, while maintaining norms.
Prudence. The practice of being cautious and thinking things through in all situations that demand it, and overall avoiding risks.
Predictability. The practice of keeping to predetermined patterns of behavior, based on a personal self concept, and avoiding randomness.
Loyalty. The practice of forming and maintaining bonds to people, places, deities, or ideals, and avoiding betrayal or other disloyalty.
Honor. The practice of obeying a cultural code of conduct or code of honor, such as a paladin's code, or Bushido, or a more standard one of chivalry.
Respect. The practice of respecting traditions and customs, including laws, the practice of politeness and courteousness, and authority figures.
Justice. The practice of obeying and enforcing laws, including the laws of one's own moral system, in addition to more blanket enforcement.

Prevarication. The practice of avoiding honesty and trending towards deception and secrecy of all kinds, being prone to outright lies.
Independence. The practice of keeping away from expected behavior, thought, and physical appearance for one's social group, according to one's own standards.
Recklessness. The practice of being incautious, and not thinking before you act, unless the situation utterly demands it, and overall being prone to risks.
Spontaneity. The practice of straying away from predetermined patterns of behavior, and overall acting in a semi-random, spontaneous manor.
Introversion. The practice of keeping away from close personal bonds, and tearing down those bonds that do form, and otherwise betraying them.
Adaptability. The practice of keeping a loose, flexible set of morals, to be redefined as the situation merits, so as to best suit to situation.
Creativity. The practice of disrespecting established traditions and customs, instead creating and then tearing down new ideas and practices.
Rebelliousness. The practice of disobeying laws and aiding those who don't abide by them, with a general disrespect for even one's own moral system.

Oh goody! The existing alignment system didn't give enough fodder for debates. Now that we have a newer, more complicated one we can really have more rational and intelligent discussions!

Okay, let's say we've got, say, a Nazi research doctor doing medical experiments on Jews in a concentration camp. He's actually a pretty personable guy, easy to get along with. He expresses kindness to his research subjects, working to ease their suffering (including the suffering his research inflicts upon them). He sees that they have good conditions, good food, warm beds, even reasonable recreation. In his personal life, he is faithful to his wife and loves his children dearly. Beyond providing for his family's upkeep and moderate comfort, he cares not the slightest about money. He has few vices, and while he does enjoy a good meal he's more likely to forget to eat because he's too busy going over test results. He is quiet-spoken and does not put himself forward; when presenting his findings, he focuses on methodology, results, and conclusions rather than ego. He genuinely pities those he works on, but rationalizes that what these few deaths teach could one day save millions. He regrets the cost but the ends justify the means. He is not a violent man at all, never striking anyone or even raising his voice.

He is also infecting racially-consigned prisoners with a variety of nasty diseases, quarantining them, and testing a variety of medicines upon them without their consent.

Okay, so where does he fall on this good versus evil scale?

Temperance/Gluttony: He's pretty darn temperate. Doesn't overeat, is quiet-spoken and reserved, isn't very wasteful. ... save in lives. Does that count for this scale? I'd say he's a 20 for temperance if it doesn't, or a 15 if it does. Let's call it 15.
Generosity/Avarice: He's not in it for personal gain AT ALL, and is working hard to give the world good medicines. Very strongly weighted towards generosity. Call it a 25.
Modesty/Pride: Hardly any ego, doesn't talk himself up much at all. 25 in favor of modesty.
Kindness/Envy: He's friendly, kind (in most respects, with some glaring exceptions), doesn't think ill of people, doesn't get jealous of their fortune, empathizes with this misfortune. I'd call this a 15 at worst, because the exceptions, while glaring, are infrequent compared to the rest. Hell, let's make it 10.
Hope/Despair: Very high on hope. He has an optimistic view of how things will turn out. 25.
Chastity/Lust: Loyal to his wife and children, doesn't get distracted from his work by the cute nurse. 25.
Passion/Sloth: Hard working, diligent, cares about his work and his cause. 25.
Peace/Wrath: Lots of arguments to be made for peace. He isn't violent, doesn't get into fights, doesn't get angry. Only one argument to be made for wrath: Murder. Lots of murder. Call this a 10, even if we could rank it higher.

Total: 160

Judgement: GOOD.


Next up: A street urchin on the streets of the capitol of an evil empire. She's no stranger to starvation, privation, or abuse. She will get any food she can and will overeat to the point of vomiting out of sheer inability to moderate. She's eager to get any coins she can and slow to give them away, though if she's had a very lucky break recently she might give a little bit away. She's learned to stick up for herself and never lets anyone disrespect her, lest they think she's weak. She can occasionally show charity to other street children... if she's got something to spare... which is hardly ever... and has great resentment for the rich or even moderately-well-to-do. She'll steal from them if she can, but only if she thinks they can spare the loss. She has no aspirations beyond surviving for the next week, and so long as her immediate needs are met she's got nothing she really wants. As she's growing up, she's learned that she can make some coin selling herself to people with perverted tastes. She doesn't go picking fights, but is quick to knife someone if they MIGHT be a threat to her, erring on the side of protecting her own hide. However, she only does so out of (perceived and proactive) self-defense.

Temperance/Gluttony: Gluttony. She'll eat to the point where she's physically ill, any chance she gets. 5.
Generosity/Avarice. Avarice. She wants every coin she can get and will steal to get it and will only give a pittance away, and then only when she's flush (by her standards). 5.
Modesty/Pride. Pride. Modest people aren't assertive enough to survive. 0.
Kindness/Envy. Few opportunities for kindness, but we can call those major relative to what she has to give. But she'll steal every chance she gets and is constantly consumed with thoughts about how well off others have it. 5.
Hope/Despair. Definitely despair. 0.
Chastity/Lust. She's a little young for this to be a factor, and she's already doing very inappropriate things, but it's not really her preference? 10? 15? 20? Let's be generous and say 20.
Passion/Sloth. Sloth. Very much sloth. She doesn't do anything beyond try to survive the next few days. 0.
Peace/Wrath. Hard call. I'll give her a 15 to be generous. She has to be violent to keep her "don't mess with me" rep going, rather than out of preference. But she's also murdering people to that end... but she thinks of it as self-defense.

Overall total: 50

Judgement: EVIL

....

So, I'm not liking the results this system is giving me. I can't pin down WHERE it's going wrong, but I think it's clear THAT it's going wrong. Some speculations about how it's getting things wrong:

1) Moderate moral virtue in multiple categories counts for just as much or more as extreme moral villainy in one category. The doctor's extremely evil acts were outweighed by his calm demeanor and everyday beneficence. He could be the most prolific serial killer in the world, and still score 175 and straddle the line between good and exalted. Same for the world's most depraved sexual abuser.
2) The categories are considered equal when they are not. Why are the worst cases of Sloth or Despair scored just as bad as the worst cases of Lust and Wrath?
3) No consideration of motives or circumstances were made. The waif ate to excess every chance she got out of desperation, and that made her evil. She stole to survive, and that was just as evil as stealing for simply having the most bling of everyone in the world. Put the waif in comfortable surroundings where she does not fear for her life, and most of those scores will instantly shoot up like a rocket... because... being severely impoverished makes one evil? This isn't the way alignment should work.
4) Some categories make no sense. Cynicism is evil? Why is it evil for someone to despair if they're in a desperate situation? Why is it good for them to be hopeful if what they're hopeful for is a bad thing? Why is chastity a good thing and a free-swinging, no-commitments, consenting-partner lifestyle merely neutral?

And also one more objection, related less to the results and more to the practice: Keeping track of all this data and all these numbers, modified for every decision players make, will be hell on a GM.

I understand and sympathize with the desire to come up with systems, to model things like psychology and ethics and morality. I do it myself. It's fun. It's a bit like doing a painting of the world with numbers. But I think that this painting is a bit off.

Bobbybobby99
2015-07-24, 07:23 AM
To goto: Sorry if you had to read all that. I agree with you on helms being rather disagreeable, especially considering the implications on after-lives and other complications. Besides, unless you work it out with the player before-hand they are going to be extremely upset with you. It's better to just say no. It would still be nice if someone, you know, used the system. Also, thanks for that quote, it gives me another reason to not use contentment as one of the expressions.